pic of Kokanee salmon run in Lake Tahoe feeder creek

[NorCalFlyGuy]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/NorCal_1/9fdd431d.jpg

[Darian]

Nice photo. Good to know the Koke's are still strong up there. Have you been to the in-stream viewing facility at Taylor Creek, yet :?: :?: If not, the facility has a glass panel intsalled on one side of a pool that you can view passing fish through at eye level.... 8) Every time I pass that area, I stop to take a look. When the Koke's aren't running, you can take a look at forage fish and resident Trout.... 8) 8) 8)

Once saw a trout in there with a small red/white cork popper stuck in the corner of it's mouth.... :roll:

[Jgoding]

Do the kokanee spawn successfully?? I guess it looks like they do but I always see that DFG plants them yearly.... I think anyways...

Jeff

[Darian]

Hi Jeff,.... My understanding is that Koke's spawn in tributaries like the upper Truckee and Taylor creek.... Last I heard, the upper Truckee is closed to fishing during the spawning run.... :)

The volume of fish coming out of Bullards Bar Reservoir to spawn in the Yuba is much larger but difficult to get to if you don't have a 4-wheeler and aren't familiar with the back country roads there where you can make it down to the river. Not sure about spawning in the Yuba. 8) 8)

[Eyecatch Tinytrout]

The fish observation tunnel on Taylor creek is very cool. I recommend that all flyfishers have a look. You can stand right next to a trout and watch it work it's feeding lane. It's amazing that most of the things it moves to intercept aren't even visible to you. You'll find browns, brookies, rainbows and even planted cutthroats (at least when I was there last). Just watch out for all the little kid's running around in the tunnel with you. Really a very educational and enjoyable experience, at leat for me. And watching the Kokanee from the highway 89 bridge this time of year is amazing, just like the photo shows!

[Hairstacker]

Now that is a really cool picture, thanks for sharing it!

[flygolf]

Having grown up a couple of miles away from Taylor creek I've seen alot of changes with the run of koke's. It seems that although the runs are bigger the fish are much smaller (it may be that I was much smaller not quite sure). Last year I saw very few over 12-14 inches where in other lakes (Donner, Stampede) they seem more like 18-20 inches. Does anyone know why Tahoe puts out smaller fish than others?

[jbird]

over the 10 years I fished the central oregon lakes, I observed that the kokanee sizes and numbers were on a cycle, and the cycle was at different times in different lakes. One lake would get huge kokes while the others had littl'ns. It seemed to coincide with numbers too. The smaller the population, the bigger the fish. When the lake gets overrun with too many of the litlle critters, they remain quite small in size. The 2 lakes in central oregon that had the biggest kokes were paulina and wickiup. Those 2 lakes never seemed to have BIG kokes at the same time....coincidence maybe. Some of the funnest fish I've ever caught were a couple years at wickiup resrvoir when they were all 18-20" footballs.

J

[Darian]

Hey J,.... what type of flies did you use to catch Koke's.... :?: I've tried to catch them with flies numerous times without much success. :? Of course, I was fishing near the inlets of lakes.... :? :?

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

When I worked at West Capitol Rod & Gun in West Sacramento around 1970 we had a friend, Lee Hudson, who was a real good commercial salmon fisherman and also trolled in Lake Tahoe for Kokanee.

This was 35 years ago and the Kokanee ran real large then.

One day he brought in a pair of Kokanee that were around 24" and 5 pounds just so I would believe him.

We fished in Folsom Lake for "Koks" in those days and fish near 20" were possible then.

We fish in Bullards Bar Reservoir too and they ran about 15" in those day but there were 'tons'.

[Larry Goodell]

Some of the Koke's were spawned by CDF&G acouple of weeks ago, I belong to California Inland Fishery Foundation, and we assisted with the spawn. The rest of the fish will spawn in the creek. There were also a plant of Koke's into Folsom this year, so in two to three years there should be some koke's to catch. The size of the Koke's depend on the amount of food available for the fish, since they are filter feeders there has to be alot of plankton in the water, the more plankton the larger the fish.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Thanks Larry.

Great info.

[NorCalFlyGuy]

damn, I wish I had remembered about the Taylor Creek observatory

if any of you guys have the chance to go there and take some pictures of the feeding fish, it would be nice to see ....next time I'm in the area, I'll defintely go

those kokanee were small, no bigger than may 14"

edit: the other pictures I took of them in schools of about 100 fish didn't come out clear enough due to the glare on the water

[Tony Buzolich]

Larry,

In your post you state that Kokonee are "filter feeders". Can you elaborate on this a bit.

When I hear "filter feeder" all I can think of is some kind of baleen whale or whale shark type thing. Kokonee have normal looking jaws and mouths and I've taken numerous of them fishing small marabou leech pattern flies at Boca, Stampede, and Donner.

Please explain,
Thanks, TONY

[Jgoding]

I think they use their gill-rakers to filter out food in the water column. Not sure exactly how they go about doing it though.

Jeff

[Tony Buzolich]

I thought gill rakers were for gathering oxygen from the water. From the gills to their lungs and body.
TONY

[Eyecatch Tinytrout]

I think they use their gill-rakers to filter out food in the water column. Not sure exactly how they go about doing it though.

Jeff

I've read this as well. Fish that are adapted to large lakes have more gill rakers for straining out tiny food organizms. Or something like that. The Lahontan cutthroat (Tahoes only native trout) is another example of this.

[NorCalFlyGuy]

I wish I had another place to upload photo's other than Photobucket because the 250kb limit really kills the picture size and resolution

the full 3MB picture of those fish is really clear and spectacular

[Adam Grace]

Cool picture!

[Darian]

Errrr,.... Lahontan Cutthroat are filter feeders :?: :?: :?: Not sure I've ever read that anywhere. :? Could someone provide a reference.... :?: All of the literature I've read indicates that Lahontan Cutthroat are predators. 8) 8)

They, supposedly, live off fish, crustaceans and waterborn insects, mainly as targets of opprotunity.... 8) The fish in Pyramid wouldn't have much opportunity to filter for small organisms during the winter months when the water temps get down into the 30's. I'm thinking the same would be true at Tahoe. :? :?

Oh well,.... guess I'm just confused.... :? :? :?

[Eyecatch Tinytrout]

Errrr,.... Lahontan Cutthroat are filter feeders :?: :?: :?:

Check out Robert Behnke's book Trout And Salmon Of North America. Page 212: "Gill raker numbers are higher in the Lahontan cutthroat trout than in any other subspecies of cutthroat or any form of rainbow trout...A higher number of gill rakers is a lacustrine adaptation for feeding on small planktonic organizms."

[Digger]

saw that too. and that is one of the most complete books of its kind.

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... I suppose Mr. Behnke is an authority on this but his conclusion, based on the number of gill rakers alone, may not be truly indicative of the type of feeder a partular Fish Species is. The statement really confuses me. :? :? Lahontan Cutthroat have vomerine teeth as well as teeth on the roof of their mouths. Does that sound like a filter feeder :?: :?:

I haven't read this book, yet, but will as soon as I can get hold of a copy. Could his statement be taken out of context :?: :?:

In the meantime, I'd like to explore this subject....

I see a filter feeder as a fish that is constantly in motion and swimming with it's mouth open; using the flow of water over it's gills to filter out micro-organisms for food value. No wasted, rapid movements as food is gathered at all times. In rivers, the current flowing over the gills would serve this purpose. Size of the fish wouldn't appear to be relevant here....

Since it has been identified by the Paiute fisheries people at Pyramid Lake that a large portion of Lahontans diet is made up of Tui Chubs, filtering would be a very ineffective survival strategy. Hard to catch a fleeing Tui Chub with out making an attack. 8) 8) Filter feeders in large bodies of water would not necessarily spend much time in one place; needing to be in motion at all waking times.... 8) Lahontans hang around places that are good for ambush potentials (rocky points/drop-offs, etc.). 8)

I know that Lahontan Cutthroat feed actively on other fish, Snails, etc., in Pyramid Lake and I've watched them (from my ladder role up and strike at a Tui Chub imitation or Wooly Buggers. 8) That action is not associated with filter feeding. I've, also, taken Lahontan's in creeks/lakes/streams in Alpine County on large streamers (1" - 2") and spoons (4" - 5") while gear fishing. In most of the cases, the fly/lure was retrieved and not still. Requiring a directed attack to intercept. I've, also, observed many other fly/gear fisherman doing the same. 8) 8)

Might it not be reasonable that Lahontan Cutthroat have adapted to feed using whatever method as their survival strategy (....filtering where necessary and predatory at other times) :?: :?: Further, it may be that gill rakers in Lahontans are vestigial and not used at all. Lotsa speculation, here. 8)

I certainly believe that behavioral indicators are as valuable as physical in making a determination of the type of feeding strategy used by a specific species. 8)

My .02

[jbird]

I'm with you darian. I am not sure if I know of any of Gods creatures that are a filter feedre AND a predator, their either one or the other.

J

[Eyecatch Tinytrout]

You guys bring up a good point. Lahontans certainly are predators. No question there. But even though I don't see why both things couldn't be equally true, I'm not prepaired to argue the point- I'm just not very knowledgable on the subject. Instead I would defer to Behnke's opinion. After all, he's been studying these fish for almost 50 years- supposedly one of the foremost biologists in his field. He even has a cutthroat named after him! I admitt to being impressed by his credentials. Still, I'm going to read the entire entry on the Lahontans again to see if I missed anything pertinent to the discussion.

[Jgoding]

On the cut-throat issue, it could be like this..perhaps when they're small and can't eat other fish they prefer to filter feed??? If the body of water is high in plankton, it would be a lot more efficient for younger fish to take advantange of it. When larger though, gill rakers would help hold onto fish and maybe help swallow it down too I think.

Tony, the actual red part of the gills are used for oxygen uptake but all the white spiny parts are the gill rakers and a lot of fish use them to help them break up stuff and trap stuff for feeding. Carp and most sifter feeders use them a lot to help sort out debris and stuff which are expunged through the gill slits while trapping food particles with their rakers to swallow.

Also, filter feeding isn't necessarily swim around with your mouth open all the time. I'm sure the fish locate large densities of plankton and rip through it much like fish ripping a school of bait. They just open their mouth and collect gobs of food as they swim through it.

Jeff

[Darian]

Hmmmm,..... Behnke's Cutthroat..... :-k Naaaawwww!!!! Must be some other name :wink:

I'm gonna give Behnke his "props", here, with the exception that even a biologist of his stature may have made a limited observation of one Salmonid, out of all of them in North America, at every stage of their lives.... :? The reality is that research is frequently limited by budget constraints. :( Not saying that's what happened here but.... :? There're other authorities who do not view Lahontans as filter feeders. Who's right or wrong :?: :?:

I tend to agree with Jeff's comment about being an early filter feeder and a predator later in its life cycle (especially since it tends to support my speculation :lol: ). Lahontans do appear to be opportunistic feeders. 8) 8)

[Larry Goodell]

The Kokes are filter feeders, they filter the plankton and alge out of the water. I would like to know why they will take a fly, lure or bait, but I am very glad they do. They are very tasty BBQed.

[Larry Goodell]

The Kokes are filter feeders, they filter the plankton and alge out of the water. I would like to know why they will take a fly, lure or bait, but I am very glad they do. They are very tasty BBQed.

[Tony Buzolich]

Yes, Kokanee are filter feeders but they also feed on small animal life as well.

This filter feeding is not what we think of in the usual baleen whale sense.
The gill rackers are in interior edge of the gills. Water flows over these rakers and directs the plankton and zooplankton over a mucus layer that enters the esophagus. This they do almost involuntarily and the mucus is swallowed. I do not believe they seek out areas of plankton as much as they just swim through it and it is ingested over the rakers with normal breathing and water flow. They do also in fact feed on small animal and insect life.

Geez, :shock: I amaze myself like I know what I'm talking about. I just read it on another website. :rolleyes:
TONY

[Eyecatch Tinytrout]

I came across another reference as to the function of gill rakers:

Trout, especially in lakes, also feed on zooplankton as small as 1 millimeter in diameter. Rather than take them in through the mouth, trout funnel them through their gill rakers, bony processes on the gill arches, into the esophogus.

This was taken from Trout, Stackpole Books. Jim Chacko Athappilly is a proffessor at Untity College in Maine, certified fish pathologist, etc. I should mention that he does list Behnke as a scource concerning the number of gill rakers in Kokanee!

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

40 years ago when we did lots of trolling for Kokanee we noticed their stomach was full of green mush. I guessed this is the small plankton they eat.

Found this on the web:

"Kokanee eat mostly zooplankton, but may eat some insect larvae and other invertebrates."

[NorCalFlyGuy]

check this out.....

http://www.kokanee.org/kokanee_festival.htm