Tipping a Guide

[Toadd]

I'm going on a guided half day fishing trip. What's the skinny on tipping my guide? Thanks for any help you can give me.

[Rick J]

Totaly depends on the guide's service. Anywhere from 0% to 25%. It isn't about catching fish but how hard he works. It helps to tell him your expectations of the trip ahead of time so he can attempt to customize. If you are looking for help in casting and reading water and techniques let him know.

I rarely hire guides but the few I do I have been going back to over a period of time and I generally tip them 25%. They work hard and are as much friends as just a guide.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I guess it is more of how hard the guide works for you?

Maybe the day that they work the hardest is the day you get skunked.

Local drift boat guides in Nor Cal "average" $350/day for 1 or 2 anglers. To some this could be small change and to other it might mean saving up their lunch money for months.

I think 10%-20% is a good rule of thumb for most of the working class fly fishers.

[gryhackl]

Hey, this is a great question which I have often wondered about. I feel that if your guide is working for a business or a guide service as an employee, then definitely yes, they should be considered for a tip commensurate with the level of service. However, if your guide is an independant operator and in business for his or her own profit, do they get a tip? I know that in other enterprizes it is not considered appropriate
to tip the business owner if they happen to be of service to you. As an example if your bartender who serves you happens to own the bar then it's not appropriate to leave a tip. That owner gets his in the form of profits of the business. I'd like to know how y'all feel about that kind of example.

[Eyecatch Tinytrout]

I think you ought to tip even if it's the owner of the outfit. Better to err on the side freindliness. Anytime someone gives you personal service- a guided tour, a haircut- they deserve a little extra. At least give them an opportunity to turn it down. They can always just stuff it in the register back at the shop.

PS ALWAYS tip the bartender!

[Darian]

Hmmmm,..... "Better to err on the side of friendliness".... :? :? Altho, I think I understand what was being said, not sure that "tipping" someone is an indication of friendliness on the part of anyone.... :? :?

I believe that "tipping" is a matter of personal preference 8) and, beyond that, I concur with gryhackl's points. :D :D

[Gregg Machel]

This is copied from an active guide in Northern CA in some literature that they had.

What about the "G" word-i.e., "gratuity." Guides are naturally reluctant to bring this subject up-it's uncomfortable. So that there is no question, our policy is simple: we expect nothing, period. If you have enjoyed your day with us, and if you are so inclined, a common guideline is $15-20 per person. Enough said.

[slack_in_the_box]

This is an awesome subject to bring up on the BB! :D

I have 3 friends that guide. Two here in San Diego and one back on the White River in Ark. Having fished with them for both fun and fee I have learned something.

If you know the guide gets plenty of business and probably doesn't get much time in for him/her self, offer to let them fish with you - especially if it's an epic hatch. I have found that guides will offer to forgoe the tip if you let them drift a some flies once you get the hang of things.

Letting them fish regardless of the tip is nice. You get cool points back at the shop, and can watch to see how it's done. They will still assist you with landings, tangles, flies, etc.

[Adam Grace]

I think tipping is should be conducted especially if the guide own's his own business. I know many different guides. Some work for fly shops or some sort of contractual business and some work for themselves. Either way, the guides have to pay money out of their pockets/earnings for gas(which is very expensive), food and beverages for their clients, flies - sometimes tons of flies, tippet, insurance and most of all taxes(which are crazy.) All of those thing listed come out of their pockets/earnings and leave them making enough money to get by and enjoy their time out on the water.

Lets not forget that not every fisherman out there is not easy to put up with, some have bad moods, and some expect the guide to catch the fish for them - the fisherman also has to have enough skill to control line and heaven forbid actually cast and delivery the fly to the fish. The guide will instruct you where and how to deliver the fly, it's up to you to do the rest. Set Set Set is a very common part of a guides vernacular because some clients, including myself don't always know what to look for. Guidea are as much of a teacher as they are a guide.

Lets remember one thing here guys, guides are not into the profession for the money, their hourly wage is small when you add up their time "on the job". The amount of time spent driving to and from fishing locations is usually lengthy. And the time spent on the water can be as long as ten hours - maybe more. Some guides fish their client from sunrise to sunset. Guides put in more than a full day at the office. They leave home early and arrive late, missing valuable time spent with their loved ones. Most guides that I know guide for the love of the sport and want to share fly fishing with others.

If your guide works hard, is respectful and friendly, accomodates you with extra snacks and beverages, tries very hard to give you multiple opportunities of catching fish you should provide a tip. Maybe they even give you a little bit of instruction, or in some cases teach you to fish, you should tip.

I will not tell you how much to tip the guide that's between you and the guide. Just remember how hard that guide worked for you during that day on the water. Think about how much that extra experience with the guide is worth as a tip.

Okay, time to get off my soap box - Adam
A successful guide trip is not only measured by the quantity of fish but the overall experience.

[Eyecatch Tinytrout]

Darian,
you're probably right to say that tipping isn't neccesarily an indication of friendliness. But I definitely feel that NOT tipping can many times be taken as a sign of dissatisfaction. As someone who's worked for gratuity most of my professional life (admittedly not as a fishing guide) I can say that it's always nice to know that your services are being appreciated. All the "thank yous" and pats on the back in the world are nice, but they don't add up to real compensation for a job well done. I think a satisfied customer should always offer a tip. As long as you don't try to force it on someone who obviously feels awkward about taking it. I have friends who will not let me tip them at their place of work. I don't tip them because we have a friendship that makes tipping innapropriate. But if you've got a proffessional relationship with someone, at least some of your appreciation should come in the form of dollars. I say, if you had a good experience, just hand the guide some money as you say thank you. He can always turn it down. If you give it to him grudgingly, as if you're only trying to maintain some kind of ettiquet, then obviously it will be an awkward moment.

I guess it all depends on the spirit in which it is given.

Lastly, although tipping doesn't equal friendliness, as you point out, if you don't tip when your server/guide/bartender thought he might deserve one, you will definately feel an air of unfriendliness the next time you procure his services. I just figure, why take the chance? You loose nothing by offering.

Just offering the opinion of someone who's been "stiffed" before. It's a crappy feeling.

Tinytrout

[gryhackl]

Adam
I understand, but if your guide works hard, is friendly and respectful, and gives you multiple opportunities to catch fish, then he or she is just doing their job. Again I feel that an employee that provides superior service doing all of the above deserves a tip. However if the guide owns the business and feels that they are not realizing the profit they should from the time and effort spent, they should then consider raising their prices.

[Adam Grace]

Tom, raising their prices will also effect the amount of business they receive. If a guide raises his price higher than most of the others he may very well loose business to another less expensive guide.

Think about health insurance, some large business pay for their guides benefits, nobodys paying for a business owners benefits but himself. He also has to solicit more business instead of having someone else do that for him. Guide business owners generally have to work harder than those being sent customers from a referal service or contracted through a fly shop.

I can understand not tipping a guide who's a personal friend out of respect, but just because someone has the balls to start their own business is no reason to penalize them.

Put yourself in their shoes Tom. How would you like it if someone didn't tip you soley because you owned your own guiding business that you busted your ass to build.

[Darian]

Adam,.... I'm overwhelmed at all of the things you itemized in your post (all of which are the requirements of doing business for anyone, inlcuding guides by the way). 8) 8) Even wage earners/retirees have expenses and pay taxes.... 8)

There is one statement in your original post that I would re-write:

Your guide should work hard, be respectful and friendly, accomodate you with snacks and beverages, as agreed, try very hard to give you multiple opportunities of catching fish. Your guide should give you instruction as needed, or in some cases teach you to fish, also, as agreed. If you, as a client, are satisfied that the guide met these service standards, you may tip whatever amount you feel is appropriate but tipping is not required.

Contrary to the picture that has been painted, here, I've seen guides who were disrespectful, drunks, and who have deliberately sabotaged other guides/customers trips by damaging equipment on north coast rivers. Some time ago, I read an article in the Humboldt Times that described destructive competition among local guides that included such wonderful things as loosening lug nuts on the other guys boat treailers.... Now, I know those're the exception but they do exist.... :x

As to not tipping being an indication of dissatisfaction.... That's more difficult. If you're (....not pointing at anyone in particular here) in a business where tipping is not generally expected and you don't receive a tip for services provided, it shouldn't be of concern. 8) On the other hand, if you're in a business where tipping is expected (such as a bar), and you don't receive a tip, maybe you should consider that you didn't provide service that should merit a tip. :( In that case, the customer may've been dissatsified and is sending you a message. many businesses where dissatisfied customers are a concern check to see what the problem was and correct it. No opportunity to do that where a tip is given, anyway. 8) 8)

OK, OK,.... I can just hear all of you big time tippers now.... "He just doesn't like tipping". Well, I do tip where I feel it's appropriate. I don't tip when I don't receive adequate or unsatisfactory service, regardless of the type of business.... In my mind, all that does is perpetuate the problem.... 8) 8) Besides, guides and I have something in common.... I don't make a great amount of money either..... 8)

[Adam Grace]

My point is this guys:

Just because a guide owns his own business does not mean that he should not receive a tip solely because he owns the business.

I strongly disagree with Toms advice!

Darian, I realize that my list was full of expenses for any normal business. I wanted to elaborate on the fact that the guides don't simply pocket the $300 and get rich, I would be very surprised to hear that they actually take home half of original price for a guided trip. I am simply trying to support and defend my friendly hard working guide friends.

I understand that there are some bad guides out there that do not behave themselves, don't tip'em, whatever.

Tips are common, if you feel that a tip is necessary go ahead and tip the guide whatever dollar amount is comfortable to you.

Darian you don't need to hire any guides anyway and worry about tipping them. You've already fished every where :D

[bmik]

There are shops that urge the client (in writing) when you book the trip that gratuities are expected, and that the average is 15%.
I have no issue with someone making a decent wage. If the monies charged for a day float aren't enough for someone to make a decent living, raise the rates a little. From what I have observed, the rates are pretty much the same. So if all the guides are not making enough money, raise the rates. I don't mind paying a fair price for a service rendered. And at the end if I am happy with the service, I'll tip. I don't like feeling pressured into tipping though. And the current structure seems to put that pressure on clients.
Guiding can be classified as a service industry and tipping is not uncommon for workers in the service industry (waiters, waitresses, bartenders, maid service, etc.). Bottom line is it all depends on the quality of the service rendered.

[Darian]

Well said bmik..... 8) 8) 8)

I believe that there are not very many persons guiding full time, throughout the course of a year, due to the fact that making a decent living as a guide (by itself) is difficult. :? :? Most of the guides that I know are either employed by a shop, are people who are retired, or employed in a seasonal job that allows them to take time off during whatever fishing season is available during that time.... 8) The income received from guiding is, generally, not their sole source of money. 8) 8)

I don't want to get into this any further but feel, like bmik, that there is entirley too much pressure to tip throughout our culture. :( :(

[Eyecatch Tinytrout]

Well, if you don't want to talk about any more, fine. Perhaps we've exhausted the topic. Just don't confuse the issue with horror stories from bad experiences. Noone here is suggesting that a crappy guide should get a tip.

[Darian]

I'm not suggesting that anyone else cease discussion on this subject. 8) 8)

I'm thru with it, as, to get into it any further (or to arrive at any real understanding....) requires a frank discussion of economic and social concerns/issues. This is not an appropriate forum for that topic. Also, I sense that some of us feel very strongly about this and further discourse could generate some hurt feelings. Since I'm not a person who is easily offended, I'm bowing out before I inadvertantly do that.... 8) 8)

If you would choose to pursue this subject with me, further, I suggest that we do it, respectfully, over e-mail.... 8) Otherwise, have a good discussion with the other board members.... :wink: :wink:

[Gregg Machel]

Well said Darian! One of the things I like about this board is that we keep it focused on Flyfishing related topics. This is a good topic, but your right, it has the potential to go into that "unwanted" type of topic. Thanks for keeping everything on track here.

By the way, your other post about how to prepare salmon made me hungry.

[Eyecatch Tinytrout]

Sorry if I let my feathers get a little ruffled. I just perceived some comments as condecending.

[Darian]

Eyecatch,.... Sent you a message that somehow appears to remain in my Outbox after several days.... Would you confirm whether you received it or not???

Darian