Help.........advertising & promotion.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

We are trying to be sure we are spending our limited advertising dollars wisely for Kiene's Fly Shop.

We have some Yellow Page ads which are getting very expensive now.

We do an ad on the back page of the Cal Fly Fisher magazine bi-monthly.

We are listed in most manufacturers directories on their web sites.

Our web site does come up well in search engines like Yahoo and Google.

We do a printed news letter we mail out in the spring and sometimes the fall.

We are gathering email addresses for some e-news we will be sending out soon.

I think this BB is great but we are always trying to get our shops presense out there in other ways.

I guess we want to be visible to the 'new to the sport person'?

My question for now is how would you find a fly shop if you were either new to the sport or new to an area?

Yellow Pages? Internet?

I guess it is a little slanted because you are all here on the Internet already?

Many old timers don't even have a computer.

Thanks for any and all ideas here.

[Brian]

Internet for sure in these days Bill. I do all my research to find area shops in the location I am traveling to on the internet. When I Google "sacramento fly fishing" your shop is the top listing.

Brian

[Digger]

It seems that everyone around the area is probaly aware of your business.

I wonder if there is a travel agency(s) for the area that you advertise with, or other tourism websites that could advertise and link with.
Also, there should be some relocation services for those moving into the area.
I was also a bit surprised to find advertising on the back of the DFG reg books now. Obviously this could be expensive, but there are many channels out there.

[Darian]

Hi Bill,.... You're about as good at this type of stuff as anyone I ever met.... 8)

Not sure what I could add except to say that the Yellow Pages are necessary for the "old guys" that don't have computer access and the Internet is necessary to attract new fly fisherman, converts. But, they're, really the same thing (a directory). 8)

It seems to me that most of the locals use word of mouth to decide what to purchase or use, etc. That could be Internet based (as in this BB). 8) 8)

Travelling anglers use the internet search facilities, Yellow Pages and magazine ads to locate shops for what they need, locally.... These might be the new guys for you to target. 8) 8) 8)

Since there seems to be no clear answer, maybe it would be better to determine how effective your current advert/promo campaign is :?: :? Once that is done, you could tailor your campaign dollars for increased effectiveness and free up some money for new "stuff". :D :D

Anyway, that's my .02 cents :lol: :lol:

[JPY]

Hi Bill - I am relatively new to fly fishing. I have been fly fishing for about a year. Unfortunately, I did not visit your shop until earlier this year to grab some free flies for joining CFFU. You have a wonderful store and a great staff.

Here are my thoughts:

- Fly fishing is expensive to get into. As such, I tried to find deals. I shopped online and through catalogs based on recommendations. However, in retrospect, I would have made better purchases and decisions had I visited a store.

- Fly fishing is intimidating. You have a wonderful and friendly staff. You made me feel welcomed when I visited the store. However, to a new fly fisher, going into a fly fishing store is very intimidating and overwhelming. Visiting your website and reading the BB is less intimidating and very educational. It also helps with branding and building a relationship since I visit your website at least once a day.

Basically, if you are trying to target new to the sport fly fisher, you should make your website very informative and easy to find (which you are doing a fine job at). You should also continue with your great customer service (value added service ) in order to overcome catalog prices and maybe hold free or at cost orientation to fly fishing at your store. I suggest that you also create a new to fly fishing kit (not just for adults, but for kids) that is competively priced. I know that I'm hooked on fly fishing and I will be spending money on fly fishing supplies for the rest of my life. It is just a matter of where I decide to spend my money. And to be honest, I rather support a local fly shop than a catalog company as long as I feel that I am getting the service and support.

Hope this helps.
John

Hey Bill
You already know flyfishing is very specalised.
You have the best support and service in the city now.GREAT PEOPLE!
You may need to keep spending more than you would like if some of the big boys come to town.
They sure can't have the support expertise that you have built. I don't know what percentage you work with,but remember,If you don't put gas in the plane it won't fly.
Dumb remark. I know.

[StevenOjai]

I would probably look up a flyshop in the Yellow Pages if I was going through town. This would be especially true if I was trying to find a flyshop within a specific location, perhaps on a fishing trip. On the other hand, if I was interested in purchasing something and didn't care where the location was, I would probably use the internet. Since I do not have a flyshop within 90 miles of home, I use the web and the phone for 80% of my purchases. The other 20% of purchases comes during fishing trips and trade-shows.
I have a business which advertises in the yellow pages. Most of my competitors have actually decreased their display ads and have remained with Bold Listings. This gives you a presence yet limits an advertising cost that is difficult to justify.

[Hairstacker]

Bill, when I'm trying to find a fly fishing store, the internet is the way I do it, no question. If the store has a website, like this one, even better. If the website tells me the store seems to have a very comprehensive selection of gear and materials, like your store does, I will especially be intrigued to check it out.

Your store shows up really well in internet searches and this website has improved dramatically! I think John makes a great point about new folks feeling intimidated by the sport. I know I was the first time I walked into a fly shop

Is there a limit on how much information you can include on your into page to the website? I don't know, maybe the website intro page should make a specific comment addressed to potential newbies to the effect that you and your staff especially welcome the opporunity to help new folks get into this great sport with friendly, relaxed assistance? Maybe a comment to the effect that, even though your staff is comprised of real experts who assist clients into getting into fish locally and around the world, they also particularly enjoy helping folks new to the sport with prudent first-time advice and gear selections? In any case, just thought there might be a way for the into page to help break down the intimidation aspect.

If you do decide to offer "intro to fly fishing" sessions, which I think is a great suggestion by John, you should prominently display that on the intro page, along with the times or a comment that these sessions are offered anytime someone walks through the door, if that's the case. Anyway, just wanted to pipe in with my .02 cents.

[BigBuddha]

I would probably still look in the Yellow Pages first. If I was travelling through town and needed to find a fly shop I would absolutely look in the yellow pages first. I would guess that a lot of new fly fishers would probably search the internet. As for coming into the shop, even when I was new to the sport I used to like coming into your old shop and look around. To me it was fascinating. Now my 10 year old loves to come into your shop and won't let me pass the exit off the freeway anytime I drive by it without asking to come by.

[MSP]

Hi Bill, as you probably know I'm not a marketing genious, but as they say "the best advertising is by word of mouth" again whoever they are. I believe that as your BB grows so will your business. The folks that participate on this board are spread far and wide and if someone was visiting the area they all would suggest a stop at your shop for information and general help. Your shop is always a pleasure to stop by and would be the first place I would suggest a newby to go for getting started in this obsession most of us have. The articles I have seen in the Bee such as Andy teaching casting has to really help promote your shop also. Maybe when some of the BB users have a get togethers such as the spey gathering next week a heads up in the Bee could be useful. You just keep up the great work on the board and your website and you may have to hire more employees. My resume is in the mail :)

Thanks for all you do Bill, I know I and all the others that post on this site appreciate your efforts.

BTW - I'm also an internet shopper and will always look on-line for stores and store locations for anything I may be looking to purchase.

[Robert Francisco]

Bill,

I likely make 85% of my discretionary purchases off the internet from out of state companies. I typically find items on sale; get free shipping and I avoid sales tax. Thus I save between 8-30% off Sacramento retail. However, I buy 95% of my entire fly fishing gear from your shop. I do this for one selfish reason; I want your shop to be successful because I really appreciate the service you and your staff provide, and some of my best friends are former or current employees and clients.

Thus my recommendation would be to continue to invest in good people, retain them as long as possible (difficult given the economics), and continue to get them out in the community. Teaching classes, guiding, and leading trips is all excellent word of mouth advertising. Maybe consider getting some articles published locally and nationally would also continue to demonstrate your industry leadership.

And continue to develop loyal customers, who will recommend you, because of your great customer service. My friends new and old to fly fishing always give Kienes a shot at their business. I like many others send them your way and you and your staff hook them with good service.

I read an interesting article a few years back that basically said that, in relative cost, it cost you about $1 to get a customer the first time. Then it cost you nothing additional to keep them as a loyal customer. However, if you loose them because of your service/cost/competition it will cost you over $10 to get them back.

Regarding the yellow pages, you likely have no choice but to continue to pay that bill for a few short more years. The cost is going up because they are starting to loose revenue from some vendors who no longer need them. However, in my view the reliance on that medium from more traditional retailers like you will continue to dramatically decrease as more electronic tools come into the main stream.

I would continue to invest in new technologies like your BB and web site and would link to as many sites as possible. Hell, my dad is using e-mail and if he isn’t an old fart I do not know who is.

If you haven’t done so already I would also consider talking to your suppliers and develop strong electronic links with them. For example, it seems to me that with the volume you do with Sage they should want to more prominently advertise your shop under their dealer section? Right now, you are lumped in with shops that have an inventory of 3 rods. Partners should be advertising for you because you are advertising for them.

48 hours and I am off to Alaska,

Robert

[FHTFYR]

Bill, I honestly know nothing about advertising however I do know what I do. If I'm at home and planning a trip I will use this BB for help it has proven several times to me that you can not get more information ANYWHERE. Then I will google area fly shops for more detail tips on the area. When I am on the road If I forget the directions to a local shop (speaking from experience) I will pick up the yellow pages. I choose not to afford a lap top because that would take away from my very obtainable goal of "I need just one more rod" (Good goal always obtainable but yet never accomplished).

Two simple things
1) I found your shop several years ago with the Yellow pages
2) I tell everyone I meet on the water about your shop and this BB

You have done great things for the FF community Thank You

[cmaday]

hey Bill,
I visited your shop this summer when I was just beginning because I found out about your shop on the internet. So I would definitely focus advertising there.

[Bob Scheidt]

Hey Bill,
When I am new to an area, often on business, I look in the yellow pages. Oh sure I have my PC with me but the wireless connection is so slow. The yellow pages is right now. One good thing is "flyfishing" and "fishing" are within a page or two in the yellow pages so I look at both. If it were me I would put a small to very small ad in flyfishing, although I don't know the costs.

I have talked to many beginners thru the years and I have noted, They don't like the high end stuff pushed in their face. They also don't like to feel bad or unworthy if they aren't going to spend alot of money. I have been told "just answere my questions and make me feel good about whatever I spend" "If you treat me good and show me I am somebody, and If I like this sport and I get ready to upgrade, I will be back to your shop." Alot of those folks are loyal, they just need a chance to connect.

We are all in the people business. Amazing how many know it but don't show it. Even a vetrinarian's customer is a person.
Your the best Bill.

Bob Scheidt

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I can see that we need to stay with our yellow page ads for now. In time they will probably be less needed.

I think everyone here had some good comments.

I did like the comments about 'new to the sport people' and how intimidating it is to come in for the first time and ask questions. I relate it to the times when I went into a computer store for the first time. I walked around and realized I did not even know where to start so I left.

Thanks

We will be adding e-commerse in the next year. This should expand our market place.

[gryhackl]

Bill
I believe that fishermen coming into this area either to fish or to relocate will look up the store in the phone book as I did some time ago. However, even though I fully qualify for "geezer status" I am on the internet daily and even do limited shopping on line. I feel that it's important that the shop maintain a presence in both mediums.
One area that hasn't been mentioned is Kiene's Expo in the spring. I realize that this takes tremendous effort to put together but I would guess that it really pays off for you big time. My suggestion would be to consider some more hands on type events. Perhaps fishing get togethers where newbies are invited to fish with the shop staff and rub some elbos.
I have hung around your shop long enough to realize that walking into a fly shop involves a lot more that just running in to grab a few flies and tippet material. It's about meeting friends, swapping stories and learning the latest reports, etc.
Kiene's customers kind of eventually become part of the family. That makes the sport less intimidating. Maybe a couple of outing based events will help grow the family.

[mems]

Aloha Bill, I was reading this post and I wondered how big do you want to be? It seems you have a very nice shop with loyal customers. That is pretty special. I travel around and like to visit fly shops. I like towns that are dominated by fly fishing, west yellowstone, ennis, ketchum, saratoga, etc. I like to go in, talk to the owner if they are there. Ask what hatches are going off, etc. Then I buy a few flies. What I have noticed. Shops that are high end have unhappy snobby customers. Shops that are friendly and supportive have happy helpful staff and the customers like the atmosphere. Guys are funny they don't like anyone to ask them if they need help, but they love to try stuff. Some of the orvis shops I have been to have practice ponds to try out new equipment. Guys also like sales.
I really go into the shop if I need to meet a guide or go on a float. I think if you sponsor children's, women's events, fly tieing classes, casting clinics, then you will help the new guys. As people have posted, the best recommendation is word of mouth. I don't think you want to become bass pro shop of sacremento. How big do you want to be? If you and your customers and staff are happy, then that is big enough. Mems.

[Jay Murakoshi]

Hey Bill,

Every time I travel, I look through the Yellow pages. I personnally don't do alot of looking at the computer for web sites (no time). I don't even take the lap top on trips.
When I first started tying commerically back in 1971, I advertised in Angler Magazine (you remember that mag). I took out a 1/12 page 4 line ad. That generated alittle business. I've also been tying at the fly fishing shows for a number of years (Sac - 16, San Mateo - 15) That bumped up sales. Got started with a web site about 5 years ago and that's keep me busy. But I think the best cheapest advertising is "WORD OF MOUTH"

Your shop and the employees provide everything that most people look for. Well stocked shop, lot's of room to roam and most of all help and friendly employees.

Keep up the good work

Jay