Gasoline prices in the USA.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Someone sent me an email about boycotting the two biggest gasoline importers, Exxon and Mobil.

Well, you need to find a major importer that does not sell gas to anyone else and then boycot one company.

They said that after they don't sell any gasonline for a week they will lower their prices because the supply from the middle east will start backing up on them.

This will start a gas war.

[Adam Grace]

If I boycotted the gas companies I could not drive all the way to the Yuba to get skuned, Oh darn! :lol:

My only type of gas wars are formed with the combination of myself, my new roommates and a couple cans of baked beans :lol:

[DonCooksey]

I paid over $3.20/gallon in Bridgeport last week :x but had a good day on the East Walker River on the Nevada side, so I soon forgot the cost of gas. :lol:

[Ed Wahl]

My solution to the high gas prices is moving from the big v-8 down to a 4 cyl. and just learn to live with it's shortcomings.100 bucks is too much dough to budget in for weekly fishing trips.So in my own way I guess I am stickin it to the gas companies.

[SullyTM]

CRONIES by Robert Bryce reveals it all...make sure you check your oil level when filling up. Thom

[steve sullivan]

If I boycotted the gas companies I could not drive all the way to the Yuba to get skuned, Oh darn! :lol:



Given the high cost of gas I am currently not driving to go fishing. Believe it or not, I take the bus. Being a csu chico grad student I ride for free (I think butte college students do to) so I just take the BCT oroville -chico bus from downtown chico to either downtown oroville or to the wallmart to fish the bridge - matthews.

Too bad the bus doesnt go to redding or yuba :(.

PS: we spend billions of dollars on protecting saudi arabia, plus all the lives we give, Bush better start do some politicizing to get prices down. People talk about how high gas is in europe, but they dont have their sons coming home in body bags like we do, or act as the sole protectors for saudia arabia. If all the money we spent on oil nations were factored in, I wonder what the true cost of gas would be?

[David Lee]

VERY well said , Steve .

Perhaps the bush twins will enlist for the cause .... David

[Digger]

I paid over $3.20/gallon in Bridgeport last week :x but had a good day on the East Walker River on the Nevada side, so I soon forgot the cost of gas. :lol:

I saw $3.30 at Lee Vining.
I was surprised to see B/port resv all blue already.
How were the E.W. flows?

[DonCooksey]

Digger:

The East Walker flows were about 260 CFS when I was there last week. I think it is around 300 now. It was not a bad level, and I was able to cross the stream at the first access through the fence inside the public section at Rosachi Ranch. It is a lot easier to walk down the river to various access points through the thick scrub on the far side, since there is a road cut through the brush there. It is really difficult to get anywhere on the near side. Caught a 16" and 20" brown on flashback pheasant tail nymphs behind a big rubber-legged stone fly nymph (same rig Mike Bias had me using successfully on the Yuba back in February). There were quite a few stone flies around, as well as a nice BWO hatch around 1:30 pm, but I never saw a single fish rise. The water was pretty discolored. I almost stepped on a huge old fish that had seen its better days and was not about to move out of his holding area as I waded through. Kind of sad to see. :cry:

[Digger]

Everyone's complicit in the high pricing.
OPEC of course, our greedy US oil companies, are always easy to blame.

China & India using increasing more oil, the fall of the largest Russian oil company, the decline in the value of the US $, Ca taxes are about .30/gal more than Nevada, different formulations for the seasons and county's for pollution control, and those wonderful speculators in the oil futures market taking advantage of all the interest right now etc., etc.

[Gregg Machel]

Perhaps the bush twins will enlist for the cause ....

If they enlist, I'm going back in too! :)

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I have been looking at the Honda 'Element' which gets ~25 mpg on the freeway.

http://www.caranddriver.com/assets/image/020303123708.jpg

[Hairstacker]

One thing I remember liking about that Honda 'Element,' aside from the excellent gas mileage, is the fact it doesn't have carpeting -- I remember thinking if your fishin' buddies tracked mud into it, you could just spray it out with a garden hose. 8)

[Gregg]

I was browsing through old topics and saw this one. Aaahhh, $3.20/gallon gas sounds so good right about now...

[Jay Murakoshi]

$3.20 a gallon, where's that at.
I just got back from 8 weeks in Baja and the station I go to is now $4.65 a gallon. The price went up .83 cents a gallon since I've been gone. I drive a Chevy Silverado and wouldn't give it up. I like big cars for security and comfort. Even though it cost me $103.00 to fill the tank, I don't plan on staying home and thinking about fishing - I'm going fishing.
Like today, I'm going to chase some carp and maybe later this week, go and do some bass fishing.
I heard there's still a few shad in the American so a couple trips later this week or next is on the schedule. Top water LMB- you bet

We were thinking about a gas economy car but to have a car payment, and high insurance rates :(

Oh well, looks like there could be more space on the American or less boats in the Delta.


Jay

[Frank Alessio]

You guys are all off base.... They need to start issuing over the counter Tags to cull the number of Environmentalis ruining this fine country for the rest of us. We need to build Nuclear plants for electricity and liquify coal to make gas and Diesel which is by the way a By Product not the highest BUY PRoduct............. Yea I am Pissed could ya tell??????

[BigBill]

FYI, We actually get more of our oil from Canada than we do the Middle East.

Anyway, I'm trying to see the positive side of the petroleum price issue. Look at the amazing response it is having on our society! Everyone is getting rid of their gas guzzlers, using public transportation more, carpooling, and starting to think about alternative fuel sources. YES!!

What I'm most frustrated about is the fact that we currently have the technology to produce fully electric plug-in vehicles that have 250+ horsepower, get 100+ miles per charge and go 80+ miles per hour! Why don''t we utilize this technology? Watch, "Who killed the electric car." http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=44020

Oh, and to hell with Nuclear energy and Coal. The waste from Nuclear and Coal power is unacceptable. If you are not willing to have a particular energy source IN YOUR BACK YARD, you shouldn't support it. RENEWABLE ENERGY IS THE KEY!

[Frank Alessio]

There you go..... More tags please.......

[BigBill]

There you go..... More tags please.......

Spoken like a truly ignorant old geezer whose selfish, traditionalist thinking got us into this big damn mess.

[Frank Alessio]

Sorry you got the wrong guy. Thank the Hippy mentality....which you seem to buy in to... No Nukes.... The good Lord gave it to us to use.. Don't get to personal OK pal.....

[BigBill]

Sorry you got the wrong guy. Thank the Hippy mentality....which you seem to buy in to... No Nukes.... The good Lord gave it to us to use.. Don't get to personal OK pal.....

Actually I think you made it personal first. You implied you wanted to shoot me for my beliefs.

If you are going to disagree with me, do so with some logic. Don't use your old "hippy dippy" stand by. Also, don't imply that you want to "tag" people that think differently than you. Those arguments have no merit, and make you appear to be a grumpy old man selfishly living in the past.

Let me ask you something. Would you purchase a house for your grandchildren that was located next to a coal or nuclear energy plant? Would you refuse to drive an electric vehicle around town if it cost you around $5 per 100 mile charge and you could go up to 80 MPH?

[Frank Alessio]

Bill you seem to be pretty smart. Would you please explain the Rancho Seco saga to me? Thanks Frank

[Scott V]

Would you purchase a house for your grandchildren that was located next to a coal or nuclear energy plant? Would you refuse to drive an electric vehicle around town if it cost you around $5 per 100 mile charge and you could go up to 80 MPH?

I really doubt that there would only be houses available near coal or nuclear energy plants. Also what if you have to go more than 100 miles, do you pull an extra car to jump in after 100 miles.

[Frank Alessio]

Lets just say you were driving to Utah... You have to drive thru Nevada from California... You would stop and plug your vehicle in some where. My question is how does Nevada generate most of its electricity???

[flyfshrmn]

Frank,

You wanted the Rancho Seco story. It didn't work. The plant was shut down more than it was running, there was no place to store spent fuel, and it was way cheaper to shut it down and get the energy somewhere else, even at the prices then. Plus, the voters of Sacramento county voted to shut it down. That shows where most people place Nukes on an importance scale. And a shutdown nuke plant is not going to do a Three Mile Island, China Syndrome or Chernobyl on you. Even if you can run a nuke safely, there's still the issue of long term disposal and safe storage of the waste fuel rods. To pass on the true costs of that to electricity users would require some very steep increases in rates.

As for using coal and dino fuels for electricity-dirtiest and ultimately the most costly other than nukes. There are a lot better solutions available - we just need to put in the money and time to develop them for everyday use.

[BigBill]

I really doubt that there would be houses available near coal or nuclear energy plants.

THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!

[Scott V]

I really doubt that there would be houses available near coal or nuclear energy plants.

THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!

I like how you changed my words, you left out or took out the word "only". I said "I really doubt that there would only be houses available near coal or nuclear energy plants"

If you are going to quote someone, do not change their words.

[BigBill]

Lets just say you were driving to Utah... You have to drive thru Nevada from California... You would stop and plug your vehicle in some where.

YES! Why not? In the 20's it probably seemed ridiculous to expect to drive a gas powered vehicle accross the country as there were very few gas stations. We adapted and built more. We could build charging stations and develop quick charge technology.

Also, the main benefit of the electric car, at this point, would be commuting, and just driving around town. Keep your Tahoe and use it on the wknds to get down airport rd (4x4) when you need to.

Lastly, why doesn't EVERY car manufacturer still not have an accessible 4x4 hybrid yet?

These are the kinds of questions and ideas we need to be thinking about and building on. If it's broken, fix it!

[BigBill]

I really doubt that there would be houses available near coal or nuclear energy plants.

THAT SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING!

I like how you changed my words, you left out or took out the word "only". I said "I really doubt that there would only be houses available near coal or nuclear energy plants"

If you are going to quote someone, do not change their words.

Oh, I thought it was a typo so I auto corrected for you, seriously. It was awkwardly worded the way you wrote it. So, I guess I have no idea what you mean then by "only"...

[Gregg]

Oh Lord, look what I've gone and started... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Darian]

OK,.... I was trying to avoid commenting on this one but feel I have to ask a couple of questions. If all of the current electric power is generated thru nuclear power generation, burning of fossil fuels, natural geothermal (steam) and hydroelectric (dams, etc.), and all of the available power is committed each day over the course of a year, how will we fill the additional capacity required to charge/re-charge all of those electric powered vehicles using current sources :?: :?: People in California do not want any more dams built and are advocating removal of existing dams. I don't see any chance of demand being reduced; more likely demand will increase even if the wonderful electric automobiles weren't a possibility. :? :?

As far as storage of spent nuclear fuel goes, Rancho Seco (even closed) is not the only nuclear power generating station in California. There're two others. San Onofre and Diablo Canyon. All three of these facilities have stored spent fuel rods on their own premises; apparently without incident. Now, I've not always been an advocate of nuclear power but am not ready to close my mind to any alternative. 8) 8) In reading up on the subject, virtually all of the problems encountered in generation of power thru nuclear facilities has been associated with the people who manage or run these stations. HUMAN ERROR. :( :(

[BigBill]

If all of the current electric power is generated thru nuclear power generation, burning of fossil fuels, natural geothermal (steam) and hydroelectric (dams, etc.), and all of the available power is committed each day over the course of a year, how will we fill the additional capacity required to charge/re-charge all of those electric powered vehicles using current sources

Not everyone is going to rush out and buy an electric car all at once. It would be a gradual process. And as the technology evolved, we would expand our current natural RENEWABLE energy sources (Wind/Sun) to meet demand.


As far as storage of spent nuclear fuel goes, Rancho Seco (even closed) is not the only nuclear power generating station in California. There're two others. San Onofre and Diablo Canyon. All three of these facilities have stored spent fuel rods on their own premises; apparently without incident. Now, I've not always been an advocate of nuclear power but am not ready to close my mind to any alternative. 8) 8) In reading up on the subject, virtually all of the problems encountered in generation of power thru nuclear facilities has been associated with the people who manage or run these stations. HUMAN ERROR. :( :(

Bottom line, Nuclear power kills you instantly, Coal power kills you over time. Why mess with either one when we don't have to?

[Darian]

I like Tristan's answer. Reduce demand. IMHO, given population increase and peoples propensity to consume, that's not likely to happen anytime soon, tho. Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to reduce consumption/demand is to reduce the supply of credit/money for spending. in other words, recession. :( :(

bigbill, I can't disagree with your premise that change to electric cars will occur gradually and over a period of time. However, demand is already increasing rapidly for hybrids and electrical vehicles along with every other alternative to diesel and gasoline powered vehicles due to high fuel prices. Population will increase rapidly whether we like it or not; contributing to increased demand. Public transportation hasn't really caught on in California, yet. Where it has, light rail cars require electric power. So, I'm unconvinced that your thought will occur in the lengthy timeframe you envision (....yours is longer than mine for the same activity). IMHO, increasing demand for power is here already and will continue to expand. Power generation must expand to meet the need and alternative methods are not up to the demand, yet.

Until technological advancements and capacity catch up to reality, I'm for keeping all options open. 8) 8) 8)

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

New Honda hydrogen powered cars?

http://world.honda.com/news/2008/4080113Next-Generation-Green-Cars/

[BigBill]

The most simple answer is to get by with less, but many, including people here, are unwilling to do so.

Use less, abuse less. The same holds true for water.....

Downgrade the hummer, turn off the lights when not in use, bump the temp up on the AC, buy more local and sustainable produce, reduce water consumption....its pretty simple really.

Everyone always seems to think that there is an unlimited supply of everything...

Which is why expensive gas is a GOOD thing. People wont change their lifestyles unless you hit em in their wallets! Watch how fast alternative/renewable power and fuel technology research takes off when gas hits $6 a gallon nation wide by the end of this summer. Also, watch how rapidly the number of gas guzzlers on the road decreases. I sold my Pathfinder and bought an Outback as soon as gas hit $3 a gallon.

[flyfshrmn]

Darian,

You wondered where the additional capacity for electric vehicles would come from. Solar panel technology is getting better and gaining efficiency every year. Right now, it's possible to buy and install a home solar electric system that will provide 80-90 percent of your annual needs in most of the West and Southwest. Not enough people are doing that. And if you had a plug in hybrid, it could be connected directly to the system. Plug in hybrids are not being made nor do many of the Big Car companies appear to have plans or prototypes in the works.

Instead of treating this as a crisis, we should be looking at it as an opportunity. It's been obvious to any one who's been paying attention, that we cannot sustain our current fuel usage patterns without destroying the planet and secondarily, the whole world economy. Global warming is a fact and so is the economic reality of increasing population, increasing wealth in other nations, and increased demand for fuel. What's lagging behind is developing and putting in place new technology to meet the demands and changes. And the technology is there - right now, without any new development, it's possible to put 100 mpg diesel electric hybrids on the road. But there aren't any in production or even in advanced planning stages. And those cars could and should run on biofuels. But we have no structure for the production and distribution of biofuels and a lot of misinformation and resistance to implementation.

A lot of capacity can be gained immediately, as others have already pointed out, by simple conservation methods. One of the simplest is just replacing all the incandescent light bulbs in your house with CFLs. It's a change that's going to happen anyway, because in four more years you won't be able to buy incandescent bulbs in California. And there are other, even more efficient lighting sources that can be developed. Unfortunately, in order for paradigm changes to occur, we need very high economic pressures. And the paradigms that need to be changed have a lot of inertia - Big Oil, Big Energy, Big Car. There's going to have to be political as well as economic paradigm shifts. And these changes are going to occur - either under direct economic pressure or through environmental pressure as we continue to degrade our planet by burning fossil fuels and adding to the global warming problems. And no matter what, in the short term, we are all going to take a hit in the pocketbook.

If you want to see real progress, write - write your reps, write the power companies, write letters to the editor, write the governor. It's no different than working on conservation issues that are raised in this forum every day. Be a voice, a squeaky wheel, a critic, an activist, God forbid, be an environmentalist - whatever melts your butter.

[Darian]

OK,.... I see all of the optomistic, standard answers to complex questions here and acknowledge that technology exists already. However, I disagree that many alternative power sources are cost effective and, specifically, solar power generation was recently reported that, in residential applications, it does not pay for itself over a 20 year period. Also, the prospect of solar panels/giant wind mills all over the desserts/mountains of CA doesn't excite me or wildlife I imagine.

Plug-in vehicles just increase demand to consume ever more electrical power. One of the reasons that all of these high MPG auto's/trucks are not on the road at present is that they are very high priced. Again, cost is a factor. People do not support activities or products that are high cost when there is a lower cost alternative; even if it's not environmentally sound. Most of us are living high on Maslou's Hierarchy of Needs pyramid or we wouldn't be debating these issues endlessly. I'm sure how this discussion would be viewed in South Central LA, Hunters Point, East Palo Alto and other Barrios/Ghettos throughout CA and the rest of the US.....

Political reality is reflected in a Cable news article reported on June 10th that a proposed increase in taxes on "unreasonable" oil profits was rejected in the Senate of the US. In defending the rejection, one Senator was quoted as saying that, ".... The bill will raise taxes (duh!!!), increase imports." (duh!!! added). The article, also, reported that support for extending tax incentives for alternative fuel/power development failed passage. The current Republican candidate is advocating opening the US coastlines to oil exploration/drilling (a position that he opposed in the past).

With thinking like that, what hope do we have of any of the alternatives coming into reality until all of the fossil fuels are depleted. Let's get real folks, it's not in industries interest to do what we want. As Mr. Rockerfeller once said while head of Standard Oil, "The business of America is business." 8) 8) 8) Get out there and buy oil futures/stocks.... :D :D

[Phil Synhorst]

Here's a good laugh. This conversation would not be ongoing were it not for the "Gipper". :lol: :lol:

While Carter may not be seen as one of the greatest Presidents, he forsaw this pile of c...p we're in nearly 30 years ago. He instituted an energy plan that would have had us using no more oil than we did in '77', research was being done on alternative energies, he even had the White House running on solar energy. Good ol' Ronnie came in and killed that real quick!

Heck, had Carter's plan gone on, gas burners could probably be something that we keep in the garage under a cover for nostalgia sake. You know, show the grand kids every now and then, reinvent our grandparents stories of walking to school barefoot, in the snow, up hill both ways kinda thing. :shock:

One last thought. What did we expect putting a bunch of oil people into the most powerful positions in the "Free World"? :-k

[flyfshrmn]

Darian,

I don't know where you're getting your info. Neither the questions nor the answers are that complex. The payback on a residential solar system with current incentives and tax credits, at current electric rates, varies between 7 and 15 years, depending on size and payment options, without figuring the enhanced resale value. That's for a residential system with net metering hooked to the grid. If, in fact, the power companies credited owners with all the power generated from such systems, the payback time would be far less.

That is for currently available solar panels with net efficiencies in the 30 to 35% range. There's a good deal of evidence that panels may see efficiency gains of up to 10% in the near future.

The same thing applies to cars. The available technology, right now, is capable of putting out 100 mpg vehicles without using fossil fuels. Plug in hybrids will add to the current electric requirements, but the efficiency of running an electrical vehicle vs. a fossil fueled one is exponential. But no one is building these cars for reasons that have nothing to do with the technology and everything to do with politics, inertia, and greed.

The major stumbling block to wind generation is not capacity. Even now, much of the available capacity in California is not used because there are not sufficient grid connections. That's political and economic blockage and has nothing to do with the technology. And the capacity to build large wind generators has died, because the political situation has removed the incentives for manufacturing of such systems where the economy of scale would make them profitable. The ecological effects of windmills on bird populations have been vastly overblown. More birds are killed in a week by cars and farm machinery than windmills kill in a century.

My contention is simple: the technology to solve our current problems with energy supplies and fuel exists right now. What's preventing it from being implemented is ignorance, greed, political and economic inertia, fear and stupidity. What is certain, is that if we do nothing, things will only get worse. There will be problems with converting our extant paradigms, but there will be much worse problems if we stand pat and sell our country to OPEC drop by ever more expensive drop of oil.

[Ed Wahl]

flyfshrmn wrote:
More birds are killed in a week by cars and farm machinery than windmills kill in a century

That's an interesting point, can I ask where your stats come from? Ed

[steelie]

I have to agree with Darian. There are some land owners in Texas now that have put wind generators on the properties. The land has lost resell valve because they are very noisy (that is why birds aren't killed by them). Also they need oil to lubricate the gears and that has been polluting because they just dump it out on the ground. The only means to make electric is hydro, coal, natural gas and solar (which means huge land mass to create enough to support our needs).

[Darian]

Flyfshrmn,.... The info about the cost of residential solar systems came from a widely publicized (both print/TV media) report made during this spring. Sorry, I can't make an exact cite as I wasn't aware that we would be discussing this subject again, at this point in time. :? The source was, supposedly, academic and the info was placed out there only for consideration when buying a system. 8)

The rest of your points don't really change anything I stated, previously.

My point about killing birds was a minor point but I won't concede that the equipment for both wind and solar systems is esthetic. They're both big and ugly and have some negative impacts. My original point about people not changing to a more expensive alternative, even if it's better for the environment, may be illustrated by your point that more birds are killed by motor vehicles each year than windmills. Even though thousands of birds, animals and humans are killed annually by motor vehicles, we haven't reduced the number of them on our highways at all. In that, the public is reluctant to change due to higher cost or non-availability of alternative power product or reduced mobility if the number of MV's is reduced....

Hopefully, when these alternatives become more efficient, their costs, direct or indirect, will come down to the affordable level (....if they're ever fully developed) and their potential negative impacts be reduced thru improvements.

I agree with the contention that politics has interfered with the development of alternative systems but that doesn't take the point far enough. :? Government can choose to create incentives or take them away; as it chose to do when it failed to extend tax credits for alternative energy development. Thus, I wholeheartedly agree with the point you made in the prior post about becoming an activist. Politicians listen to money and votes. 8) 8) IMHO, this is about crisis management and nothing will be done until all of the available fossil fuels are depleted. :( :(

[Scott V]

This should start another discussion, I got this off the AP "Associated Press"

Sen. John McCain called Wednesday for the construction of 45 new nuclear reactors by 2030 and pledged $2 billion a year in federal funds "to make clean coal a reality," measures designed to reduce dependence on foreign oil.

In a third straight day of campaigning devoted to the energy issue, the Republican presidential nominee-in-waiting also said the only time Democratic rival Barack Obama voted for a tax cut was for a "break for the oil companies."

McCain said the 104 nuclear reactors currently operating around the country produce about 20 percent of the nation's annual electricity needs.

"Every year, these reactors alone spare the atmosphere from the equivalent of nearly all auto emissions in America. Yet for all these benefits, we have not broken ground on a single nuclear plant in over thirty years," he said. "And our manufacturing base to even construct these plants is almost gone."

Even so, he said he would set the country on a course to build 45 new ones by 2030, with a longer-term goal of adding another 55 in the future.

"We will need to recover all the knowledge and skills that have been lost over three stagnant decades in a highly technical field," he conceded.

Later, at a news conference, McCain said he favors steps to reduce the time plant owners need to obtain the necessary permits. He also suggested U.S. companies use common technology to shave the time in takes to bring a new nuclear facility on line.

In an appearance before an audience at Missouri State University, McCain also said, "We will need to solve complex problems of moving and storing materials that will always need safeguarding."

Shortly after he spoke, a participant in a campaign-organized round-table discussion of energy, retired Marine Corps Gen. James Jones, said obtaining the necessary construction permits can take five years. "We should be able to cut that in half," added Jones, a former NATO commander who is now chief executive officer of the U.S. Chamber Institute for 21st Century Energy. He also is on the board of Chevron.

Jones flew to Missouri aboard the campaign's chartered jet although, ironically, Democrats recently disclosed that his name has figured in Obama campaign discussions of potential Democratic vice presidential running mates.

McCain's motorcade drove by a few dozen sign-carrying demonstrators protesting the Iraq War. One audience member interrupted his remarks by standing and shouting that the Arizona senator had taken millions from the oil industry.

A dramatic spike in worldwide oil prices has pushed the cost of gasoline to $4 a gallon and more, and made energy a domestic political issue in a way it has not been since the days of the Arab oil embargo of the 1970s.

On Tuesday, McCain delivered a speech in Texas in which he made the case for a nationwide effort to reduce dependence on foreign oil, including additional drilling in U.S. coastal waters, and said he would begin laying out specific proposals in the coming days.

With his appearance in Missouri, he began making good on that promise.

The Republican presidential contender said Missouri gets about 85 percent of its electricity from coal, an abundant natural resource in the U.S.

"Perhaps no advancement in energy technology could mean more to America than the clean burning of coal and the capture and storage of carbon emissions," he said.

With the $2 billion in federal funds, he said, "We will build the demonstration plants, refine the techniques and equipment, and make clean coal a reality. This single achievement will open vast amounts of our oldest and most abundant resource. And it will deliver not only electricity but jobs to some of the areas hardest hit by our economic troubles."

It was the second straight day McCain has criticized Obama, the Illinois senator who will collect the Democratic presidential nomination this summer, a few days before McCain lays claim to the GOP nomination.

Obama has said McCain's support for additional offshore oil drilling is evidence that he would effectively give the country another term of the Bush presidency.

"I guess the senator has changed his position since voting for the 2005 Bush energy bill — a grab-bag of corporate handouts that I opposed," McCain said. "Come to think of it, that energy bill was the only time we've ever seen Senator Obama vote in favor of any tax break — and it was a tax break for the oil companies."

McCain opposed the 2005 measure and said at the time it was larded with billions in unnecessary tax breaks for the oil industry.

[Darian]

Just a guess but it like sounds campaign sound bites to me. I'm tired of the posturing by all politicians. One thing for sure, he'll have to convince a Democrat dominated congress to get what he wants done. As if to support my last post concerning allowing tax incentives for alternative energy to expire, the SF Chronicle reports that unless these credits are extended, they will expire by the end of the year. :( Now believe it or not, some of those credits go to homeowners who invest in a solar system for their homes. Up goes the time required for ROI and down goes cost effectiveness when investing in same. :( :( Not to mention what it does to the businesses that are into development.

The nuclear power options mentioned by McCain and Jones sound like an example of my other point that Nuclear power generation is not inherently bad. The people involved in design, maintenance, management are the problem. If we truly have lost the knowledge base for building a nuclear facility, why would we consider shortening the time required to get permits; to allow dummy's to build "....another 55" :?: :?: Further, using "common technologies" to develop reactors means what :?: :?: The same technology used to construct reactors aboard submarines/ships or something else :?: :?:

Currently, a facility for storage of spent, radioactive fuel rods is not available. What do we do with the additional spent fuel rods until a facility is constructed :?: :?: Kinda sounds like someone is putting the cart in front of the horse. :? :? Once again politics trumps everything. :mad: :mad:

[flyfshrmn]

Obama is right about McCain being just more of the same old Bush BS. There's nothing in his statement about renewable, non polluting energy sources - just more coal, more oil, more pollution, more CO2, more drilling, more oil spills and ocean pollution, with a poor attempt to disguise it as cleaner. You have to give him an unclear on the concept evaluation - our current situation is the result of relying on fossil fuel and the answer is not more fossil fuel and it doesn't matter how you try to clean it up, it doesn't solve the basic problem and it doesn't matter how much you produce from new exploration, it still only extends slightly the time beyond which you will no longer have any usable fossil fuel at any price. Unless McCain can repeal the laws of thermodynamics, any solution that sequesters carbon dioxide will require a large expenditure of the energy being produced. It's time to retire the fossil fuel paradigm and start working on solutions that address the basic problem - reducing the heat burden and CO2 burden of the planet.

Nukes are not the answer either. Chernobyl and Three Mile are far from the worst accident scenarios with a nuke plant. Even without the enormous capacity for catastrophic accident, the temptation for the Osama Bin Ladens of our current world is far too much. There is no safe place to store spent fuel for the required time, hundreds of thousands of years. When the actual cost of providing effective security and storing the waste from these plants is factored in, the energy produced becomes prohibitively expensive even by today's standards.

[Rob]

I paid over $3.20/gallon in Bridgeport last week :x but had a good day on the East Walker River on the Nevada side, so I soon forgot the cost of gas. :lol:

Now look at the prices !!!!!!

I feel sorry for you guys in California , we just returned from a week in Davis and the prices are insane . It cost us around 200 .00 for a round trip from Cache Valley Utah to Davis California and back , plus a bunch of local driving . We are still under 3.90 here in our town . :shock: . I can't believe i think that's good !!! :roll: :roll:

[Rob]

You guys are all off base.... They need to start issuing over the counter Tags to cull the number of Environmentalis ruining this fine country for the rest of us. We need to build Nuclear plants for electricity and liquify coal to make gas and Diesel which is by the way a By Product not the highest BUY PRoduct............. Yea I am Pissed could ya tell??????


+1 :D :D :D

[Alastair]

If you can handle the truth about why our gas prices are so high, look at this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677#25252591
This gang of criminal thugs have been screwing us since Ken Lay "died."
They don't give a damn about you or our country. They created the "Enron loophole." It's all about the money.
Thanks to the present situation, I can't afford to go to my favorite fishing locations.
Please don't attack me, I spent six years of my life in the military so I have the right to voice my opinion.
Watch this report, the facts presented are exactly why we are getting screwed at the gas pump.

[Rob]

Lets just say you were driving to Utah... You have to drive thru Nevada from California... You would stop and plug your vehicle in some where. My question is how does Nevada generate most of its electricity???


NO !!!!!!!!!!

It look us 11 hrs to go from N. Utah to Davis using gas .
Can you imagine if we had to wait for a electric car to charge every 100 miles or so . :roll: :roll:

[loganmike]

You guys are all off base.... They need to start issuing over the counter Tags to cull the number of Environmentalis ruining this fine country for the rest of us. We need to build Nuclear plants for electricity and liquify coal to make gas and Diesel which is by the way a By Product not the highest BUY PRoduct............. Yea I am Pissed could ya tell??????

Not really sure if this is a joke or what not. but if this is what the people that do not support science's quest for alternative forms of energy have in mind, then it is a sorry state of affairs.

This is not a personal attack, but this quote is quite possibly the most absurd thing I have read on this board. I feel sorry about this opinion.

As fly fisherman, are we not all some form of environmentalists? If that is the case, well, nuff said.

[Frank Alessio]

Relax Guys it was said in jest.... It would not be the Short Term solution we all seem to be looking for.......Frank

[Skunked again]

Haven't y'all seen the three eye'd fish on the Simpsons?

Seriously...

Some of the greatest fishing I have ever had in my life was in the outflow plume of Ginna nuclear power plant in Lake Ontario in N.Y.

As soon as the ice breakup, if you could get out the fishing was spectacular!

The warm water plume from the plant would bring in hordes of baitfish, and with that would come the big guys. 5-10 lb browns and rainbows and occasional cohos and smallmouth. It was not uncommon to boat 15 fish between the hours of 5:30 and 8:00 in the morning.

Man I wish I had fly fished in those days. We used to cast rapalas and rattle-traps and let them hang out in the current. My dad saw some fly guys really clean up once though.

I don't know whether nuclear is a safe and viable option. There are certainly some very compelling pro and con arguments. I certainly don't condone building lots of new nuclear plants just because it provides some great fishing I just told this story to provide a little bit of fun to this subject that's gotten very serious and personal
Neil

[Darian]

Kinda reminds me of the stories about the fish at Rancho Seco Pond glowing in the dark.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks for lightening things up. 8)

[BigBill]

Lets just say you were driving to Utah... You have to drive thru Nevada from California... You would stop and plug your vehicle in some where. My question is how does Nevada generate most of its electricity???


NO !!!!!!!!!!

It look us 11 hrs to go from N. Utah to Davis using gas .
Can you imagine if we had to wait for a electric car to charge every 100 miles or so . :roll: :roll:

Battery cell and charging technology is expanding pretty rapidly. They are talking about 10 minute re charge times being a near future reality. Also, electric-gas hybrid technology allows users a driving range of around 400-500+ miles at 30-50+mpg. Why aren't there more accessible, diverse, functional hybrids being marketed yet?

[Scott V]

You don't need a hybrid to get good gas mileage. I have a Toyota Yaris that gets 36 m.p.g. and if I drive under 70 it will get 40 m.p.g. Why pay 10,000 - 15,000 more just to get a car that might get a few miles more than I do. Plus all the extra work that goes into a hybrid is only adding to the destroying of our eco system. So now you have a car that use gas but it also requires an extra motor and batteries, yeah that is real eco friendly.

[Phil Synhorst]

Alastair, thanks for the link, it has been a while since I have seen Olberman, once again he is spot on!!

There is one part of your post however that makes me both sad and angry(in a good way I suppose). You felt the need to use your service as a shield against attack, and to qualify your position. It shows how dangerously close to FACSISM we are. Being a Citizen used to be, and still should be the ONLY qualification to voice your opinion in this country. However, these last few years those who wrap themselves in the flag and righteousness, have made those of us who do not agree with them look like unpatriotic people who only want to destroy our democracy. While behind their backs they shred the very Constitution that you and others like you swore to defend. They have forgotten, or ignore the fact that this country was forged from dissent.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, don't be afraid to speak your mind!!!!!!!! Be mindful that you have done more than ALL the Chicken Hawks in the Executive Branch put together. If people don't like what you have to say, they can respond (hopefully with civility), or they can move on to the next post.

Better stop here, this should keep my NSA minder busy for a while :shock: :lol:

p.s. Much Thanks, you did what I was too dumb and headstrong to do when I was of age.

[Alastair]

Phil, thanks for the words of encouragement. I have always been a bit defensive. I fully expected to get flamed for my political views. Everyone here has been talking about a solution to the problem and I felt it necessary to try and explain why we are being screwed by this administration. I guess I brought up my service to try and drive home exactly why I hate what has happened to my country. I got drafted but was lucky enough to do well on the Air Force exam and did an end around a two year waiting list. This was in 1967, being drafted equaled coming home in a box. So, it wasn't like I volunteered. Regardless, I did my time and I made it out with an Honorable Discharge.
I am truly concerned for the country and I hope we can recover from the damage these criminals have done.
This is related to this forum because I truly can not afford to go up to the Upper Sac as often as I would like to. It makes me angry to know that the reason is because this country is allowing this kind of corruption.
I'd better stop here. I've said enough.
I am going to hoist a wee dram of Macallan 18 year old in your general direction. :D

[Rob]

You guys are all off base.... They need to start issuing over the counter Tags to cull the number of Environmentalis ruining this fine country for the rest of us. We need to build Nuclear plants for electricity and liquify coal to make gas and Diesel which is by the way a By Product not the highest BUY PRoduct............. Yea I am Pissed could ya tell??????

Not really sure if this is a joke or what not. but if this is what the people that do not support science's quest for alternative forms of energy have in mind, then it is a sorry state of affairs.

This is not a personal attack, but this quote is quite possibly the most absurd thing I have read on this board. I feel sorry about this opinion.

As fly fisherman, are we not all some form of environmentalists? If that is the case, well, nuff said.

I think the issuing of over the counter Tags to cull Environmentalist is a LITTLE extreme , :wink: But i agrees with the rest of the statement 100 %. Not every one believes everything the Environmentalist are doing or saying . I do not think solar or wind powered power is the answer and was very disappointed when Rancho Seco was closed and feel that was very very stupid . :roll: The Environmentalist don't want Nuclear power , they don't want more Dams built for hydro power and want some removed , :roll: they don't want More oil refineries , or more oil drilling , so as far as i am concerned , they are some what responsible for the high cost of our Fuel and power . :roll: :roll: Sorry but I am not "QUITE" ready to be labeled as a Environmentalist , way too many extremist out there for me . :roll:

[Phil Synhorst]

Alastair, I'm honored that you would heft a bit of 18 year Macallan for me. 8) I am a Scotch man myself, and must confess that I had a couple of nice sized glasses of Glenfiddich while writing that post. It was a two edged sword, calmed me enough to keep it sane, yet had to keep checking to make sure it would be coherent. :lol: :lol:

[aaron]

Not surprising. Most politicians have always been looking out for their own interests. Add the incompetence and lack of oversight of the current chairman of the fed and it's really not surprising that gas prices are where they are. It's pretty sad that it's gotten to the point where it effects our pastime and results in a lengthy discussion like this on a FF board. It's too bad the only candidate with the cajones to get things fixed is no longer in the running. My .02 cents anyways. Thanks for keeping this civil for the most part.

[loganmike]

I think the issuing of over the counter Tags to cull Environmentalist is a LITTLE extreme , :wink: But i agrees with the rest of the statement 100 %. Not every one believes everything the Environmentalist are doing or saying . I do not think solar or wind powered power is the answer and was very disappointed when Rancho Seco was closed and feel that was very very stupid . :roll: The Environmentalist don't want Nuclear power , they don't want more Dams built for hydro power and want some removed , :roll: they don't want More oil refineries , or more oil drilling , so as far as i am concerned , they are some what responsible for the high cost of our Fuel and power . :roll: :roll: Sorry but I am not "QUITE" ready to be labeled as a Environmentalist , way too many extremist out there for me . :roll:

Gotta say Rob, I am surprised by your opinion but respect it none the less. I hope that a logical conclusion can be agreed upon and we can all get back to the past time that we love, Drinking beer, ahhh, I mean fishing:)

Cheers guys.

me

[jhaquett]

Hey guys,

It has been awhile but I am back on the board after 4 months studying medicine and undergraduate work in Denmark.

I was hoping that everyone who disagrees with solar and wind power could explain to me how one of the most (if not THE most) economically stable regions of the world, Scandinavia, and Denmark especially, are run by 80% alternative sources (most of it being wind)?

Germany, France, Italy, Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, well actually, the ENTIRE EU (though I don't have first hand experience in most of the 27 countries) is fairly reliant on wind power. The only reason that it wouldn't work in this country is because we are entirely too corrupt to allow it. How can all of you be proud to be live in a country where 5% of the population holds 95% of the money? This country is terribly corrupt.

I also must disagree with some people's opinion of the aesthetics of windmills. I lived on the øresund coast near København and the "crops" of windmills in the Baltic Sea were quite beautiful, in a non-natural kind of way. I do understand how one might find them ugly, but I think you can easily get used to them.

Given the oil companies, the war, and the fact that there are a lot of people out there actually planning to vote for McCain, I'm considering buying an open ended ticket back to København.

P.S. BigBill thank you for providing intelligent, educated insight. Someone else watched "Who Killed the Electric Car"! :)

P.P.S. Everyone reading this post needs to check out www.teslamotors.com , take a glimpse of the future and try to tell me electric cars are worthless.

[Dabalone]

Given the oil companies, the war, and the fact that there are a lot of people out there actually planning to vote for McCain, I'm considering buying an open ended ticket back to København.



Do us a favor buy your ticket now. Sick of people with nothing good to say about the country, you obviously don't like it go ahead and leave.

[aaron]

If you want a real shocker to the corruption that is this country check out "Loose Change" on YouTube.
In an attempt to keep this civil...seriously?

[jhaquett]

Yea sorry aaron, I should have pmed that to BigBill. I erased it, feel free to erase your message so that the name of that video is not kept on the thread.


Dabalone,

I understand that older generations hold patriotism for this country dear to their hearts.

What I don't understand is ignorance, or maybe naivety is a better word, towards the entire situation. You believe that because you cross your heart during the national anthem and follow the flag code that you are keeping this country aligned. Wrong.

We have regressed to a pitiful level, we have become unstable compared to a multitude of other countries, including 27 of them on the other side of the Atlantic.

I love this country for its natural beauty, but there is nothing to love about our current state of affairs. January 20th, 2009 is going to be resurrection or apocalypse, I for one am hoping for the former.

By the way, if it wasn't so damn cold there and I could talk my family into it, once I am out of medical school I would be setting up practice in København, that is the 100% honest truth. I would love to leave this country for good to so called patriots like yourself.

[Dabalone]

You seem to be full of assumptions, you know nothing about me and patriotism seems to offend you. I know whats wrong with the country and I am willing to stick it out and do my part in getting it corrected. Now I will make an assumption, you are probably a product of the US educational system and part or all of that education has been payed for by taxpayers, including the patriots you have no regard for.

[jhaquett]

Good assumption, considering I'm a California resident...

You are right, the term patriotism is offending to people like me these days. It is tainted with so called terrorism, freedom fighting, Operation Afghanistan, Operation Iraqi Freedom (or whatever Bush plans to call it tomorrow), and all of the other BS engulfing the country.

I am happy you know what is wrong with the country, the important part is that you admit there is something wrong. I WANT to reform the term patriot, I WANT to be proud of where I live. But, currently, I am not. I just wanted some others to know that there are countries in this world who know what they are doing.

I am grateful to taxes that I did not have to pay for my education up until high school, and currently, attending Chico State, I am still relying on taxpayers. Though, it is frustrating that I have to pay $30,000 a year to become a physician when there are many, many countries who pay their citizens way through all of their education.

[Scott V]

P.P.S. Everyone reading this post needs to check out www.teslamotors.com , take a glimpse of the future and try to tell me electric cars are worthless.

Electric cars are not worthless, they are $109,000. :lol:

[jhaquett]

Yea of course it is not going to be cheap. But, relatively, that is a pretty good price (considering the price of high class BMWs and Porsches that don't offer much other than a name).

Soon enough that price will drop dramatically. Take the Chevy Volt for example. It is supposed to be out in 2010 and will have a price tag in the mid-high $30,000 range.

[Scott V]

Yea of course it is not going to be cheap. But, relatively, that is a pretty good price (considering the price of high class BMWs and Porsches that don't offer much other than a name).

Soon enough that price will drop dramatically. Take the Chevy Volt for example. It is supposed to be out in 2010 and will have a price tag in the mid-high $30,000 range.

It must be nice to say that $109,000 is a pretty good price. That is more than twice the annual income of the average American. In order to get away from gas vehicles that price is going to need to be way lower for the average person to afford one.

As for the Volt, according to Chevrolets website, "the volt is good for people that drive 40 miles a day. When you need to go further a variety of range-extending onboard power sources, including gas and, in some vehicles, E85 ethanol to recharge the battery while driving."

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see no more gas vehicles, to breathe fresh air. But at the speed of the auto manufacturers, I do not expect to see it in my life time. In the mean time they have and are improving vehicles that get much better gas mileage. My Yaris gets 36 m.p.g. and it cost me $18,000 out the door. That is the type of vehicle people should be considering right now and not wait for a "miracle" electric or other type of car to come out. Other countries around the world have cars that get more than twice the fuel economy that the cars in America do, why do we not have those cars here. My Yaris had been in Japan for over 4 years before they brought it to America.

[jhaquett]

Agreed. The Tesla and Volt are just positive signs for the future. Trust me, I don't believe that $109,000 is a nice price to pay for a vehicle, I drive a '93 Honda Civic that I paid $2500 for five years ago. I'm just saying compared to the prices of many other vehicles, its not that bad.

Don't even get me started on America's wonderful ability to stop the efficiency of its vehicles. The exact same car in Europe will get 5-15 mpg better than it will get in America, its ridiculous. Plus, as you said, a multitude of efficient vehicles are available that are not here. I couldn't believe that we actually allowed the Smart car here, though they are absolutely EVERYWHERE in Europe, and have been for years.

Good deal having a Yaris, I would get either that, a new Civic, or a Prius if I had the money.

[flyfshrmn]

Hey guys,

Let's keep it civil and not be shooting rockets. Everyone has their own definition of patriotism, but patriotism should not be blind. when it does become blind, then it turns into something that Adolf Hitler would be gladly recognize. It's not my country, right or wrong, it's my country right and wrong and having the courage to fix what's wrong and not f**k up what's right.

[sacrivertrout]

Good assumption, considering I'm a California resident...



I am grateful to taxes that I did not have to pay for my education up until high school, and currently, attending Chico State, I am still relying on taxpayers. Though, it is frustrating that I have to pay $30,000 a year to become a physician when there are many, many countries who pay their citizens way through all of their education.

Can you please explain to me how you are paying $30k a year? You say you are a Ca resident!! Tuition at Csu Chico is only about (really rough guess) $4k a year. Add in books and we will call it a even $10k a year. No matter where you live you have to pay for housing, food, utilities so I am not going to let you get away with counting that. Where is the extra $20k coming from?

[Ed Wahl]

That is more than twice the annual income of the average American.

Woohoo!!!! I've made it up to average. \:D/
Dad was right, hard work over an education really did pay off.

Lighten up you knuckleheads. :)

[pgw]

The value of the gas I'm buying now for $4.43 a gallon (minus the increases in sales tax) is about the same as it was in 1971 when the price of a gallon was 33 cents a gallon...the amount of compensation that I take in has risen and my other costs of living have dropped to levels that keeps the relative value of most things the same...like, that brand new Orvis Battenkill (2 tip) bamboo rod I purchased new for $137.50 in 1971 would cost how much now?

John Weir (a rod builder from Los Gatos) provided me with a thought to keep the relative value of stuff in perspective...he used to say that an ounce of gold, a man's business suit, and a good fly rod all had about the same value, regardless of the cost in dollars of each thing...what's a Nordstom's suit or a top of the line Sage Rod cost today...how about an ounce of gold?

Don't bitch about the relative cost of fuel, improvise (save money for fishing trips instead of spending it on other stuff...like golfballs), adapt (carpool to fishing spots), and overcome (enjoy the fishing...on less crowded streams).

Paul

[Dabalone]

The value of the gas I'm buying now for $4.43 a gallon (minus the increases in sales tax) is about the same as it was in 1971 when the price of a gallon was 33 cents a gallon...the amount of compensation that I take in has risen and my other costs of living have dropped to levels that keeps the relative value of most things the same...like, that brand new Orvis Battenkill (2 tip) bamboo rod I purchased new for $137.50 in 1971 would cost how much now?

John Weir (a rod builder from Los Gatos) provided me with a thought to keep the relative value of stuff in perspective...he used to say that an ounce of gold, a man's business suit, and a good fly rod all had about the same value, regardless of the cost in dollars of each thing...what's a Nordstom's suit or a top of the line Sage Rod cost today...how about an ounce of gold?

Don't bitch about the relative cost of fuel, improvise (save money for fishing trips instead of spending it on other stuff...like golfballs), adapt (carpool to fishing spots), and overcome (enjoy the fishing...on less crowded streams).

Paul

If gas prices are in line and relative to current cost of living and wage increases, explain why airlines are cutting flights, truckers are going out of business, food prices are spiking and auto makers are shutting down plants to name just a few examples. Whats causing this, high fuel prices it seems. I don't think blue collar workers with families have kept up like the numbers suggest.

[jhaquett]

so I am not going to let you get away with counting that. Where is the extra $20k coming from?

:D That made me laugh because you just must not have read or didn't comprehend what I was saying. It is going to cost me $30,000/year to BECOME A PHYSICIAN, meaning in medical school, next year. 8)

Currently, I am at Chico State, becoming a person with a bachelors in biology. Actually, tuition is only $1940 this semester, and I thank taxpayers all the time for that, seriously. My girlfriend goes to private school on the east coast with tuition around $40,000 :roll:. With scholarships, grants, etc, her parents only pay around $12,000, but still.

Thanks for clarifying in case others took that the same way that you did.

P.S. Thanks for the very healthy estimate of $6000 for books to get me closer to $30000 but I buy all of my books online, normally for around $200 a semester. I resale them at the end of the year and usually only lose around $40 overall. 8)

[stevie steelhead]

I just viewed this thread and I guess that flyfisherman are made up of all political types and views.
I am a veteran, a patriot, and I believe that I am entitled to my opinion about our country and it's poor environmental record. I also believe that it is every citizen's right to voice their displeasure about this country.
J. Haquet has every right to compare us to more advanced countries in Europe, such as Denmark, and voice his opinion. And, he should not leave this country, just protest more and change it.
The original thread concerning the price of gas and how it affects our flyfishing is very appropriate and poingnant. Pollution from the excessive amount of carbon fuels has and will continue to affect the rivers, lakes, and oceans, and all in a very negative outcome.
As for politicians, just look at how your state elected officials are voting on issues that affect fishing. Recently the State Senate Natural Resources and Water Committee voted 5 to 2 (along party lines), to send AB1806 to the Senate, to help the horrible situation in the Delta/tributaries.
Our job as flyfishing citizens is to protest loudly and peaceably, and use your vote to protect the environment and promote alternative energy policies. This country will speak up in November and change our future in a very positive way, especially for the environment!

[sacrivertrout]

so I am not going to let you get away with counting that. Where is the extra $20k coming from?

:D That made me laugh because you just must not have read or didn't comprehend what I was saying. It is going to cost me $30,000/year to BECOME A PHYSICIAN, meaning in medical school, next year. 8)

Currently, I am at Chico State, becoming a person with a bachelors in biology. Actually, tuition is only $1940 this semester, and I thank taxpayers all the time for that, seriously. My girlfriend goes to private school on the east coast with tuition around $40,000 :roll:. With scholarships, grants, etc, her parents only pay around $12,000, but still.

Thanks for clarifying in case others took that the same way that you did.

P.S. Thanks for the very healthy estimate of $6000 for books to get me closer to $30000 but I buy all of my books online, normally for around $200 a semester. I resale them at the end of the year and usually only lose around $40 overall. 8)

You are right, I thought you meant chico state cost you that much, sorry! Are all Medical Schools so expensive? In this day and age of HMO's and Illegal aliens taking up medaid it is not exactly like Doctors make it rih.

[jlmelend]

I graduated from medical school 10 years ago and the average principle debt was 130-150K. The average cost of a 4 bedroom home in the valley region exceeds 2-3x that. The top salary for a practicing general internist in this region is 170K per year. Do the math-I'm just happy I can afford to fish and buy gas.
Good luck jhaquett. If I were you I'd marry a lawyer...who owns their own boat.

[jhaquett]

sacrivertrout,

Yes all medical schools are that expensive. In fact, I am planning to go to a fairly "cheap" medical school!

jlmelend,

Thanks. I won't get into internal/family practice, I just wouldn't enjoy it. I'll do it during clinicals because I have to but that is it. I am going to get into surgery, and I don't really care what specialty. My girlfriend is also applying to med school with me this summer. Plus, I don't want to practice in an extremely urban area. If everything works out, I think I should be able to afford gas and fishing. 8)

[Scott V]

Honda has come out with a zero emission car called the FCX-Clarity that will lease for $600 a month for 3 years. But of course there are a few issues or should I saw problems, it is only available to southern California residents and to make it worse they are only allowing famous people like movie stars and famous atheletes to lease the car. There reason for this is because if a movie star drives it then they will get free publicity. The reason it is only to southern California residence is because that is the only place they can be fueled and serviced and you have to live in either Torrance, Santa Monica, or Irvine. It is a hydrogen powered car. What is really interesting is that honda is trying to come up with a fueling station for the home, hopefully that will get things rolling. but in the mean time watch those tv star shows and you might be able to see Paris Hilton or David Hasselhoff getting out of a hydrogen car. :lol:

[Rob]

Given the oil companies, the war, and the fact that there are a lot of people out there actually planning to vote for McCain, I'm considering buying an open ended ticket back to København.



Do us a favor buy your ticket now. Sick of people with nothing good to say about the country, you obviously don't like it go ahead and leave.

I love this country , and never considered leaving with Clinton :oops: as a president or even Obama . But if Mc Cain wins and you or anyone wants to leave , then i think you should get a one way ticket for free. I would be all for that . We heard the same thing from a ton of the HOLLYWOOD folks about Bush winning , but saddly they did not leave . :wink:

[sacrivertrout]

[quote="Dabalone"][quote=jhaquett]

But if Mc Cain wins and you or anyone wants to leave , then i think you should get a one way tickets for free.

So is that a offer? If McCain wins, you will pony up the $1200 for a one way ticket to New Zealand for Jhaquett?

[loganmike]

[quote=Dabalone][quote=jhaquett]

But if Mc Cain wins and you or anyone wants to leave , then i think you should get a one way tickets for free.

So is that a offer? If McCain wins, you will pony up the $1200 for a one way ticket to New Zealand for Jhaquett?

And I want a one way ticket as well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! Either that, or hey, just purchase a cabin in canada for me forr the following 4 years and I will drive.

I hope there is a lot of money out there, cuz I think over half the country will want to have a cabin as well for four years. But if half the country does then we have nothing to worry about cuz their voices will be heard. OH< wait, that happened last time and look who won the race!

[Frank Alessio]

Wow what a day..... The Supreme court voted for me to retain my Gun Ownership.... 5 to 4.... That means 4 Supreme court justices do not believe the American Citizen should own a fire arm... Thank God for that out come

[jbird]

I just spent the last 20 minutes musing over this thread and my contribution is....

:crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :-({|= :-({|= :-({|= :-({|= :-&

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[jhaquett]

This thread has turned rather random

Yea Clinton left the economy as stable as ever and in a surplus, but definitely the worst president ever for receiving fellatio :roll:

10's of thousands of murdered civilians vs. a blow job, hmm....

Anyway, Rob go ahead and PM me and I'll give you the address to send the money for the ticket in case of the resulting apocalypse in November. 8)

[Rob]

[quote=Dabalone][quote=jhaquett]

But if Mc Cain wins and you or anyone wants to leave , then i think you should get a one way tickets for free.

So is that a offer? If McCain wins, you will pony up the $1200 for a one way ticket to New Zealand for Jhaquett?

And I want a one way ticket as well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! Either that, or hey, just purchase a cabin in canada for me forr the following 4 years and I will drive.

I hope there is a lot of money out there, cuz I think over half the country will want to have a cabin as well for four years. But if half the country does then we have nothing to worry about cuz their voices will be heard. OH< wait, that happened last time and look who won the race!

If i had the money i sure would buy him the ticket and also tickets for half the country your talking about , :shock: but only if they promise to NEVER come back . :wink: That's why i said one way !!!!!!!!! If people are willing to leave this great country just because someone they don't like wins the white house , :shock: "COOL " that's OK with me . As far as i am concerned both candidates Suck :cry: , but i am not going anywhere , i love this place !!!! :D

[Rob]

Wow what a day..... The Supreme court voted for me to retain my Gun Ownership.... 5 to 4.... That means 4 Supreme court justices do not believe the American Citizen should own a fire arm... Thank God for that out come

And i would bet that those 4 Supreme Court Judges have guns for protection , or body guards who do !! :roll: :roll:

[Dave Neal]

Wow…not sure this thread is entirely about gas prices anymore…

So here goes: We, as a country, need to start weaning ourselves from oil…for a multitude of reasons. High gas prices will force us to do this.

I support my family guiding. I drive a truck and a boat for work. I pay $5 a gallon for gas right now. It hurts, but this country will not come up with viable and healthier alternatives with unlimited $3 gallon gas.

Stevie Steelhead thanks for your post.

I am a Patriot, a gun owner, and I plan on voting for Obama.

One thing that angers me more than anything is when someone questions patriotism through actions that are quite un-patriotic. I love America and everything it stands for. Democracy is being able to voice your opinion and exercise your rights.

Many of the people I look up to the most, including 2 of my own family members served in the military during wartime, my father and my late grandfather who was in WW1.

Frank & Rob…This country will NEVER dis-arm its citizens. It will never happen. Anyone who thinks so is pandering to the NRA’s paranoia scare tactics that perpetuate its own bureaucracy and power.

5 to 4 vote simply means 4 Justices didn’t quite agree with the semantics. It does not mean 4 justices want to take every one of our guns away.

As a gun owner I am happy with the ruling. But, I do believe in some gun “regulations”. My brother-in-law, who is a Sacramento Sheriff Deputy, gun owner and hunter, has fired his weapon in self defense and been shot at on the job, would also agree with me.

[David Lee]

Wow…not sure this thread is entirely about gas prices anymore…


It isn't .

We used to keep our personal pollitical bents under wraps pretty well here .

Divided we fall , I guess . Pretty sad .......

David :(

[loganmike]

NOW, coming full circle and to get back to the point! I like the idea of a motorcycle to get to fishing spots!

I forget who posted that but anyone who has done this, what are the pros and cons of it. How ward is it to carry all of your stuff to the river like that on a bike?

me

[Scott V]

NOW, coming full circle and to get back to the point! I like the idea of a motorcycle to get to fishing spots!

I forget who posted that but anyone who has done this, what are the pros and cons of it. How ward is it to carry all of your stuff to the river like that on a bike?

me

I have and still own a motorcycle since I was 8 so I have a few experienced thoughts on this.

I would use saddlebags if you have them, and strap anything you can on to the back seat. Do not put anything on your body, like strapping a rod to your back, the wind can cause tricky riding conditions. But the reason I personally would not use a motorcycle to go fishing would be the tired factor. When I get done standing in the river for a couple hours, casting non-stop the last thing I want to do is ride a motorcycle. I am usually just too tired, so be safe and as always, watch out for the people that do not see you on the road. Basically everyone.

What kind of bike are you riding?

[Dave Neal]

We used to keep our personal pollitical bents under wraps pretty well here .
(

Thanks David Lee, and you are right. This IS a fishing forum. One of my personal rules with clients is to never talk about politics or religion...unless, of course, we're all on the same side of the fence :D

It's just that sometimes politics and the environment will come up this forum and mostly I think people use good judgement. I think everyone is very respectful of eachothers opinions, by and large, here on this forum.

When topics get heated (some always will) people will just move on and stop responding. But differences in opinion is what opens people's minds and sometimes changes them, too.

I meant no personal attacks on anyone who has participated in this thread. Hopefully no one feels that way.

The great thing about this country is you should NEVER be afraid to speak your mind...in a respectful way. We all have a common interest in FISHING...and things like political & social beliefs should never burn that bridge.

I'll fish and have a beer with anyone on this board...with a fly rod, of course... :wink: