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Ryan
03-28-2005, 10:49 PM
This is a question I have had for a while, and the more I think about it, the more it bugs me. On the American, there is a half pounder run and an adult run... HP's are 16-22" and Adults are... I'm guessing 23"+? HP's go to the delta, and never get to the ocean... while Adults go out to the salt and that's where they spend the majority of their life. This is the case for the American. Correct?

What is the deal for the Feather? The steelhead average... in my experience... anywhere from 18-22". With the occasional 8-10 pounder hooked and ocasionally caught a couple times each season. And that is during Ocotber/November/December... I have noticed that in the spring, there are alot of fish caught that are in the 18-22" range, but there are even more smaller 12-16" fish in the river... I know those ones have never seen salt or any water other than the Feather. So what my question is... does anyone think that the average 18-22" steelhead on the Feather made it out to the salt, or do you think they chilled in the Delta like the American HP's? So basically, what does everyone consider a HP and an adult on the Feather?

I realize my question is really confusing... but I tried to clarify it as much as possible. I'm interested to hear some oppinions on this topic.

Adam Grace
03-28-2005, 11:54 PM
Ryan, I don't think that your question is confusing.

I have wondered the same thing. The Feather SH are smaller on average than the American River SH. Although the Feather fish are smaller I still believe that they have seen the salt. I could be wrong. Your guess about the Feather fish going as far as the delta has merit. Hopefully there is someone out there who knows more than myself about this topic.

Maybe we should call the Feather SH 3/4 lbers :lol:

smokeater
03-29-2005, 01:00 AM
I thought that it had more to do with the gene pool that had been perpetuated in those respective waters. For instance when the hatchery on the American planted steelhead of the Eel River strain (I think), that brought the larger winter fish that we see here. I just thought that other rivers like the Yuba didn't have the benefit of selective breeding.

Darian
03-29-2005, 12:32 PM
Ryan,..... There was some discussion related to this in an earlier post ("Keepers") under this topic that may give some perspective. Not all of it is on point but I think the posts by ycflycaster and covelo about the makeup of American River Half Pounders had some info in them that you might find interesting..... 8) 8)

chicoflyguy
03-29-2005, 10:04 PM
ryan

I fish the feather on a regular basis. I think that a lot of the smaller SH (12") in the spring are fish that have been released recently from the hatchery. On average the Feather has smaller fish in the spring but the fish are generally wild fish that are super hot. In the fall the average fish is bigger than in the spring but they are hatchery fish that do not fight as hard as the smaller spring fish. Either way, any steelhead is a good steelhead, no matter how big or what it is called.

Bill Kiene semi-retired
03-30-2005, 09:50 AM
I heard once a long time ago that the CA DF&G considered any steelhead in the Lower American River under 12 inches to be a pre-migrant.

I think if you can go to the hatcheries and talk with some older people there or the biologist for a river system you can find out the planting history of the river.

I believe that after the dams and hatchery were put on the Lower American River that they used Eel River Steelhead stocks to start the winter run.

Many of us feel the 'Halfpounders' (14"-22") are the original strain of fish that was in the American River before the dams.

In the '70s they had more money for the hatchery system and they did more experimenting then. They got some stocks of summer Steelhead from the Washougal River in Washington state.

I have a call into the Lower Feather River Hatchery right now to get inforamtion regarding their original stocks of steelhead.

BigBuddha
03-30-2005, 01:33 PM
In a recent trip to the Feather we caught 5 half pounders. They were all between 12-16 inches in length. Two were very silver, but the others were had more color, a little darker. Would this indicate that the silver colored ones had been in the salt, and the darker ones had not?

PatrickM
03-30-2005, 02:08 PM
Half-pounders, small adults, resident trout - I'm not picky, I like them all. Hopefully I'm going to chase a few up there this weekend. Any advice on what's been working up there lately?

Tony Buzolich
03-30-2005, 05:31 PM
I have to question the statement Ryan made that the A/R half-pounders only go as far as the delta. If that were the case, would they in fact be steelhead? Secondly, if that was as far as they got, the stripers would desimate the run. A few weeks ago Fish & Game dumped steelhead smolt into the Feather at Boyds Pump and the stripers went crazy. A new Feather River record was caught over 50+pounds. After a while as the smolt worked there way downstream, the striper bite followed the migration and Verona was hot. Now it seems Freeport is the area.

As to color, I fish the Feather a lot and have caught different color phases of "steelhead" throughout the year. Some of these I'm sure are resident trout that are in fact bigger than some of the juvenile steelhead.

Without actually taking a scale sample and counting the rings and color changes of the scale, there is no way to determine if what is caught is actually a "steelhead" or a trout.
TONY

Darian
03-30-2005, 11:02 PM
I concur with Tony's statements...... 8) 8) It doesn't make sense to me that Steelhead would stop in the delta. :? The fish that go to sea would appear to be anadromous Steelhead, the others are not anadromous. To me that means the latter are resident Trout. 8) 8) 8)

Maybe someone like Jeff Goding could help out with this one..... :?: :?:

BigBuddha
03-31-2005, 12:08 AM
Hey PM I had success with a floating line, and bead head birdsnest nymphs, and bead head prince nymphs. I had to add some weight where I was fishing, but I suppose this will change with the riffle or run you fish. Good luck.

David Lee
03-31-2005, 02:17 AM
Patrick - Don't hold me to this .... but I think the river will be low enough to fish this weekend . Bring a big (8 wt,) rod and sinking line , the fish are still eating the same stuff as last time BUT - Stripe is there :twisted: !! Lemmy know if you're coming up . David

PatrickM
03-31-2005, 03:16 PM
Thanks for the tip, Buddha. I'm heading up there with a couple of buddies this weekend. I'll let you know how we do.
David, it'll be a couple of weeks before I can get up your way again. I'll give you a shout when I'm thinking of coming up there. When are we going to see some pics of the striped beast from you?

BigBuddha
04-03-2005, 01:25 PM
Hey PM did you make it to the Feather this weekend? I fished it Saturday. I landed one 14 incher on a prince nymph, but it was windy. I actually ended up trying to cast a shooting head and swinging a Silver Hilton. To my surprise I hooked into a big one. I had it on for awhile, but my 5 wt. Sage XP couldn't do much with this thing. A lot of head shaking and a big run, the hook was thrown. I guess there might be an adult or two still left.

ycflyfisher
04-06-2005, 03:20 AM
Ryan,

I can't really agree with your statement that American River pounders are not anadramous. Due to the time constraints of a half-pounder migration they probably don't venture much outside the bay, but they do more than likely hit the salt. I don't know for a fact, but I think it's unlikely any of those fish are utilizing a survival strategy that involves a prolonged stay in the delta because of thermal issues in the summer and an unfavorable delta forage base (for trout less than 12" long) vs. high predation rate by delta predators ratio.

For anglers, the term "half-pounder" seems to represent some kind of arbitrary size of the fish. It's actually a very distinct life-history component. "What do you classify as a half pounder?" Ask a dozen anglers, you'll probably get up to a half dozen different answers. Ask a dozen biologists, the answer will probably be pretty consistant.The half-pounder component is described in the scientific literature as a sexually immature fish that will not spawn that returns to freshwater(not neccessarily it's natal stream.) on what's termed a false migration. The pounder will typically spend 2-4 months in the salt before returning to freshwater. The pounder component is more largely associated with early entry(i.e. fall run) stream maturing fish, as opposed to later entering, ocean maturing fish. The American has a noticable pounder component because it is found in the Van Arsdale/Eel River strain, that was originally used to seed the hatchery. Outmigration for pounders has been observed to occur as early as Nov, but generally occurs the spring after re-entry to fresh water.

Due to the adaptive nature of steelhead, it is now my opinion that the pounder component is probably present to at least some degree(mainly very small degree) anywhere there are wild steelhead. A biologist who probably forgets more about the fish in a day than I'll ever learn in my lifetime, has stated that he's seen pounders in virtually every watershed he's ever worked in. There is no general concensus among the scientific types as to why this component occurs at all, or what if at all, advantage it affords to the fish. IMHO, in the watersheds where 95+% of the fish(Klamath) are exhibiting this lifehistory, it's got to give them some advantage or they wouldn't be doing it to the degree that they are. I'm guessing it's a trade-off advantage( i.e. the pounders reap more abundance for the entire population at first spawning via lower predation by returning to freshwater than staying in the salt for a full season, at the cost of smaller size ar spawning.) That's the theory of a USFS biologist and is the one that I've heard that makes the most sense to me. Just because we don't understand why, the pounder component exists doesn't mean it's not important.

I personally don't feel that any of the CV watesheds with the exception of the American, has a pounder component to any appreciable(i.e. fishable degree. Why? The Study(from scale analysis) that was conducted by Jones and Stokes on the Yuba steelhead a few years ago showed no pounder component in any of the steelhead that were captured. The Feather? Can you say "residualized hatchery disasters that elected not to outmigrate"? You can predict the strength of what anglers conclude is a "pounder run" on the Feather by the large presence(or absence) in small fin clippers in the winter/spring. If a good deal of the fish residualize and elect not to outmigrate, then they grow to approximately pounder size by the following fall. This is a hatchery management (or mismanagement) issue, not the presence of a fishable legit pounder run.


Feather river steelhead do hit the salt, and this has been confirmed via scale analysis. Feather river steelhead are smaller than their winter run counterparts on the American, due to the predominant life-histories of the fish. The Feather fish are predominantly one salt fish in about the 17-22" size range. The fish on the American has a greater multisalt component than the Feather and thus in general, produces larger fish. More seasons in the salt= bigger fish. Angler's seem to call fish in the 17-20" range a pounder on the Feather, when in reality, those fish are capable of spawning and should really be considered mature 1 salt steelhead.

On the Yuba, by scientific accounts, does not really have a viable steelhead population. It does have some steelhead, but not many. IMHO, 95+% of the fish that are caught by anglers and are reported to be pounders are actually just resident jobbers. It's hard to argue with the numbers from the JSA study. Not only are there not a lot of pounders, there's just not a lot of steelhead on the Yuba. In the late 1970's the DFG actually attempted to make anadromy a viable survival strategy for the fish on the Yuba by transplanting stock from the Coleman Hatchery, which they felt would continue to utilize an anadramous survival strategy. By the JSA numbers it didn't work. The current state of conditions on the lower Yuba offer year round thermal refugia, lots of availible quality spawning substrate via the mining tailings that replenish the rivers gravel via sediment transport, a large biomass of aquatic inverebrates that features a readily availible food supply year round, a massive amount of protein in the drift via the mechanisms of the Chinook spawn and subsequent allevin hatch in the fall and winter, controlled winter flows, etc, etc, etc. In a nutshell, the changes incurred by the "progress of humanity" in the Yuba made it more fish freindly than it was in in it's natural state. The wild steelhead adapted to the changes of man by electing to not outmigrate. Adamdromy in the Yuba simply became a less effective, unneeded survival strategy.

The inherent need to outmigrate is thought to have originated because steelhead/salmon rivers in general are fairly sterlie watersheds, that usually feature seasonal conditions that can generally be described as hostile to supporting large populations of large fish. The trade off in outmigration is:
1- a smaller percentage of the fish will survive to spawning.
2- The fish that do survive will be larger and you'll get more recruitement of future stock from each spawning fish.

Here's a link to another discussion that talks about relative size of steelhead that's watershed dependant:

http://www.ncffb.org/~gmiller/ncffb/cgi-bin/archive/archive11.cgi?read=218875


Willie

Jasonh
04-06-2005, 08:21 AM
Here's my 2 cents worth. I have caught many half pounders in both the american and yuba rivers. I would have to say that about 80% of the fish on the american seem to be wild fish as well. The reason i say i have caught some on teh yuba is because i have seen sea lice still on the fish and therefore indicates that they have recently been in the ocean. I was told that these fish can make teh trip from teh ocean to the yuba or american with in about 48 hours. I would have to say that most of these fish in the 14-22" range are at least one salt fish and i would say hang out in the rivers and feed for quite some time during the year. I have caught a few 22" plus fish in the american throughout the summer. To me the whole half pounder and steelhead migrations are a big question mark and i would really like to know what they realy do. I have head fish and game doing research on the yuba over the last year to determine what those fish do, hopefully they will do the same on the american some day.

Jason

Darian
04-06-2005, 11:25 AM
Hey yc,.... Thanks for entering this thread :D . I recalled some of your comments related to this in a previous thread I partcipated in and felt your knowledge was needed for clarification, here.... :D

PatrickM
04-06-2005, 12:34 PM
I promised a report to Buddha, so here it is:
Got up to the Feather about mid-afternoon on Sunday, just as the rain was starting. Fished the low flow with a buddy of mine for an hour and a half until it starting getting really nasty. We nymphed through a few nice riffles and drop offs and ended up with one sucker fish to show for it. We drifted the Lower Sac on Monday with another friend who has a boat. Not many bugs coming off, and fishing was a bit slow, but we still landed a few nice ones. Prince nymphs were the only thing we could get a bite on. Very fun couple of days. Drifting a river with two friends is about the best way you can spend a Monday, IMHO.
That's it.

steve sullivan
04-07-2005, 12:09 PM
I promised a report to Buddha, so here it is:
Got up to the Feather about mid-afternoon on Sunday, just as the rain was starting. Fished the low flow with a buddy of mine for an hour and a half until it starting getting really nasty. We nymphed through a few nice riffles and drop offs and ended up with one sucker fish to show for it. We drifted the Lower Sac on Monday with another friend who has a boat. Not many bugs coming off, and fishing was a bit slow, but we still landed a few nice ones. Prince nymphs were the only thing we could get a bite on. Very fun couple of days. Drifting a river with two friends is about the best way you can spend a Monday, IMHO.
That's it.

Hi Buddha, I fish the feather about 3 times a week. I have found it "fair" but have been managing to catch 1-2 steelhead, from 17 -22 inches with one 26 inch totally silver hatchery steelhead (fought like c**p, I didnt expect that from a 26 inch total silver steelhead, was using 6 pound tippet, and it never came close to taking me into my backing).

I have taken some stomach samples from some of the hatchery fish, and one fish had about 30 green caddis larva (forked tail, 2 prominent pairs of arms coming off the black part of the upper part, couldnt see a antanea, legs were so small as to probably not be keyed on by fish) and about 5 sucker eggs. Yesterdays stomach sample found a more even distribution between caddis larva (maybe some were caddis pupae?). I have had more success with a caddis larvae than caddis pupae (my larvae has a forked tail, no legs, two sets of small arms (black rubber or pheasant tail or mallard and a black thread head that is smaller than the body).

A prince has been about the second most popular fly for me behind caddis pupae/larva. If I were you I would use a sucker egg imatation with a caddis larva dropper. If you want to test my theory about larva you are allowed to use three flys, so throw on a fox poopah as well. The fish on the feather are starting to really key in on sucker eggs. The eggs are really small, maybe 1.5 times bigger than a 1/8 inch bead, and I cant figure out the color. I am going to just use clear glue. If you can find really small yellow beads that might work too.

steve sullivan
04-07-2005, 12:16 PM
What is the deal for the Feather? The steelhead average... in my experience... anywhere from 18-22". With the occasional 8-10 pounder hooked and ocasionally caught a couple times each season. And that is during Ocotber/November/December... I have noticed that in the spring, there are alot of fish caught that are in the 18-22" range, but there are even more smaller 12-16" fish in the river... I know those ones have never seen salt or any water other than the Feather. So what my question is... does anyone think that the average 18-22" steelhead on the Feather made it out to the salt, or do you think they chilled in the Delta like the American HP's? So basically, what does everyone consider a HP and an adult on the Feather?

.


Hi Ryan, one thing you have to realize is that I talked to the people at the hatchery a couple of days ago, and the feather has a BIG problem with parasites. The hatchery has tried to plant other strains of steelhead, in one instance they planted 1000 steelhead and all 1000 steelhead died from the parasite. I cant answer your question about if a 18-22 inch steelhead has tasted salt versus just the delta, but I can emphatically state that I have caught 17 - 22 inch steelhead that are adults, as I have caught 17 -18 inch fish that have been been ready to drop their eggs.

Jasonh
04-07-2005, 03:52 PM
Steve, for the sucker spawn i like to tie a sparse looking egg, not really too round on a size 10 tmc 2457 hook. Oregon cheese is a great color of yarn to imitate them. Fish can really key in on them this time of year and not too many people know that. Keep up the reports.

Jason

BigBuddha
04-13-2005, 03:27 PM
Thanks Steve. I didn't really think about sucker eggs. I had been using birdsnests and prince nymphs. I think you may be right about the Fox Poopah as well. I am going to do some tubing this weekend, but I'll be back on the Feather after that.

Adam Grace
04-16-2005, 02:22 PM
Willie, that was incredible.

Thank you very much for the information.