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View Full Version : Take me to your LEADERS !!



David Lee
02-10-2005, 08:08 PM
Hi guys (that's right ! guys , not girls .... I don't think we have any girls on here yet .... :( ) !
Leaders are not talked about often - I don't know why . Leaders are good things (ever try to tie a #14 Birdnest to your flyline without one ?) and a good leader design can make or break your day . So , here are the questions ...
Knotted or knotless ??
Length for specific applications ??
If you tye your own , what formula ??
Any strange stuff in it (shock-gum , colored sections , multi-strands ...) ??
My favorite multi-purpose (5-7 wt) is - 3 feet 20 lb. , 2 feet 15 lb. , 1 foot 12 lb. , 1 foot 10 lb. ..... surgeons loops in each end , all tyed w/ double surgeons knots . I use Maxima ultra-green for the leader and Seagaur blue label Fluro for the tippet (6-10 lb.) .
For sinking lines , 3 feet 25 lb. , 1 foot 15 lb. , plus a tippet .
I also have some Furled leader butts from my friend Rod Harrison in Australia - his "Knotted-Dog" 9/10 butt could turn over one of my housecats on a 10 wt. rod . Good for BIG Striper flies !! David

Joseph
02-10-2005, 11:24 PM
I am a devout fan of furled leaders. I make mine out of fly tying thread for dry fly presentation. I've tried making them out of monofilament but they aren't as flexable as those made of thread. Nothing turns a dry over like a thread furled leader.

So I could honestly evaluate one for durability - I have used the same furled leader for 3 seasons to see if it would wear out and start to fray. No signs of wear yet - it will be interesting to see if that leader will last through season 4.

If it doesn't I will have to pull out the jig and make some more. I end up giving all of them away and. Whenever someone asks me about my leader I reach into my vest and hand them one and tell them to try it for themselves. My stash dwindles rapidly but it doesn't matter - I can build a new one every 3 years...

Joseph :D

Hairstacker
02-10-2005, 11:57 PM
A leader for 3 seasons? Are you serious? I had no idea. Sure would like to hear more about these things, like how they're constructed.

Bill Kiene semi-retired
02-11-2005, 09:56 AM
One thing that is new for us in tropical salt water leaders is the 'twisted" leader system that our friend Leo Gutterres of Stockton has been working on for about 5 years now.

One big plus for me is that with the stiff mono core lines that we use for the tropics we have to put a braided mono loops on instead of a needle nail knot. The twisted leader hs a loop at the top end with no knots making this a very smooth connection.

The leader also turns over and has more stretch so it is good for big violent fish on a fly rod.

Much of our staff have been working with the twisted leader which we use mostly in the warm tropical fishing situations.

SullyTM
02-11-2005, 11:08 AM
David...Bear with me. If I understand your leader philosophy you are foregoing the off the rack leaders and constructing your own. Correct? Is it your contention that "shorter" leaders are better suited for the American? Do you apply this short leader technique, or do you use the more conventional leaders? How long are your tippets? Do you have a formula for them based on leader length? As always, Share What You Know, Learn What You Don't. thank you.

David Lee
02-11-2005, 11:41 AM
Hi SullyTM , I never use knotless leaders , why buy when you can tye ?? With a floating line , never shorter than 7 feet in lakes and more like 9 to 12 feet . Sinking lines (I use them the most ...) 4 to 7 feet (3 feet of butt , 2 feet of tippet gets the most use for swinging ) .
The American is super clear ... longer is almost always better , for me , anyways . Knotless have their place (heavy weeds , timber) but I just like the way home made ones cast better .
Some people get more Striper bites with a LONG (10 to 14 foot !!) leader on a sinking line . I use a 7 or 8 footer for them and get bit o.k. . David

Darian
02-11-2005, 11:31 PM
Think I might've gone thru every stage of leader selection/construction and/or use except for furled leaders.... The only one that really fsacinates me is the recent discovery (on my part) of the twisted leader that Bill mentione in his post. 8) Basically, I believe that anything that can be done simply (rather than complex) is good. 8) So, for me, I will not build a leader if I can buy one that'll do the same job. :D

The lone exception to this is the twisted leader. 8) I believe this method has a great deal of potential and is not difficult to construct. Loops are already built into the contsruction process. Its main appliocation appears to be as a butt section(s) but Bill/Adam are far more knowledgable in this area than I.....

I intend to use these leader butts in all saltwater applications and for salmon/stripers. :D :D I'll have to see if I need to use one on other type fish (Bluegill :?: :?: :twisted: )

Bill Kiene semi-retired
02-12-2005, 09:53 AM
Years ago (~1960) when I started fly fishing they had one mono tapered leader by Berkely Company. They were in a red plastic package for a dollar and somehting? I was working at a sporting goods store part time then, Arden Sports Unlimited.

The standard trout leader setup was to nail knot on a stiff ~18" butt section of Mason monofilament that was about 2/3 the diameter of the tip of your fly line. Then we used a Berkely knotless tapered mono leader. I think we used mostly the 9' model. Then for tippet there was this stuff from France imported by the Gladding Line Company. It was Gladding "Gladell". It was in nice little different colored (for size)plastic spools.

Many did tie there own leaders or highly modify the factory tapered knotless ones in those days.

Today, most use factory knotless tapered leaders especially for trout fishing. We usually tie many of our own leades for stripers and salt water. You can tie all your own leaders and it is very interesting. After really learning how to build leaders, you can quickly modify any leader to better suite the daily fishing conditions.

Adam Grace
02-12-2005, 12:15 PM
I like tapered leaders. With everything else to conentrate on in fly fishing I like my leaders as simple as possible.

I think that it takes a lot of time to tie and build you own leader. I have a fear of using knotted leqaders and having one of the many knots failing on me.

Plus I'm lazy :lol:

Joseph
02-12-2005, 12:19 PM
A leader for 3 seasons? Are you serious? I had no idea. Sure would like to hear more about these things, like how they're constructed.

Their construction is quite simple once you have a good setup jig. Its kind of complicated to explain so I'll simplify it: I have an 1x6 board 8 feet long with 2 rows of nails spaced according to a formula down the board. If the board is laying flat the nails are sticking up like you were going to be nailing it on your house as trim.

I then take a fly tying bobbin with 6/0 or 8/0 fly tying thread and starting from the top nail I make 8 loops around nail 1 and 2. Then I make 5 loops around nails 2 and 3. Then I make 3 loops around 3 and 4. Nails 5, 6 and 7 go back up the board on the right side. From 4 to 5 I make 2 loops, 5 to 6 I use 4 loops and 6 to 7 I make 6 loops. Then I pull the loops off the nails and end up with a large link thread chain. Each of the loops form the links.

With one end of the chain still attached to nail 1, I attach the other end to a hook made from a paper clip thats chucked into a cordless drill. Keeping tension on the thread chain I start spinning the thread with the drill clockwise. As the thread winds it starts getting shorter. When the thread chain has shortened about 10% (12"-16") I stop the drill. You then bring the end that was on the drill back up to the other end keeping tension by having someone hold the center of the wrapped thread. Once the 2 ends are back together you hand a weight from the center and let the whole thing unwrap. This weaves all the threads together and you end up with a leader. You have to see it and then it will all make sense. I'll mail you one if you are interested.

Joseph

Hairstacker
02-12-2005, 12:48 PM
Joseph, thanks for the explanation! I think I've followed what you said. The one thing that's not clear, though, is how you transition from nails 1-2 to 2-3. Seems like after you do the 8 loops around nails 1 and 2, you are now sitting at nail 1. How do you get to nail 3? Do you just extend from nail 1 to 3, then do the 5 loops around nails 2 and 3 and so on? And obviously the spacing between the nails is important since you mentioned a formula, which I imagine, along with the number of loops, accounts for the tapering of the diameter so it turns over properly. How on earth did you figure this out? Finally, do you just attach the mono/fluoro tippet to the end of these things? And do you think this thing would work for a bass leader that calls for, say, a 0x - 2x tippet that will be attached to, say, a size 2 deerhair bug? Sorry for all the questions, but I (and maybe others??) am really interested. Thanks again!

Joseph
02-13-2005, 01:56 PM
Joseph, thanks for the explanation! I think I've followed what you said. The one thing that's not clear, though, is how you transition from nails 1-2 to 2-3. Seems like after you do the 8 loops around nails 1 and 2, you are now sitting at nail 1. How do you get to nail 3? Do you just extend from nail 1 to 3, then do the 5 loops around nails 2 and 3 and so on? And obviously the spacing between the nails is important since you mentioned a formula, which I imagine, along with the number of loops, accounts for the tapering of the diameter so it turns over properly. How on earth did you figure this out? Finally, do you just attach the mono/fluoro tippet to the end of these things? And do you think this thing would work for a bass leader that calls for, say, a 0x - 2x tippet that will be attached to, say, a size 2 deerhair bug? Sorry for all the questions, but I (and maybe others??) am really interested. Thanks again!

Mike - Your assumption is correct - you do go from 1 to 3, 2 to 4, etc... One part I left out in the first description is that as you are making your loops on nails 2 and 3, 3 and 4, etc.... you have to take the thread inside the previous loop. So, as you are coming up from #3 nail back to the #2 nail you take the thread through the loop formed by #1 and #2 nails. Otherwise the links of the chain wouldn't be connected.

I can't take credit for figuring it out - its an old method of making leaders. A friend of mine in Chico helped me get started and with his OK I'll get the instructions he sent me hosted somewhere so I can post it if you are interested. Its currently a WORD doc.

Yes - you attach your tippit to the end of it. I tie in a perfection loop at the end of the leader - actually both ends. I just put a perfection loop on the tippit and do a loop to loop.

These leaders would work great for big bass flies. You would just use heavier thread or mono to make your leader. I have a heavy mono leader that I'd be glad to send you. I think it would work great on big deerhair bugs. You can email me at milehimbr@yahoo.com if you are interested.

Joseph

Hairstacker
02-14-2005, 10:38 AM
Joseph, THANKS!!!, for the additional explanation. I'm definitely interested in seeing that Word doc you mentioned, as well as the specs for your heavy mono leader for bass. I don't want to put you through the trouble of sending one if I can figure this out . Thanks again!!!

Joseph
02-14-2005, 11:49 AM
Here you go Mike.

Materials List
4' x 2' 1/4" peg board
16" 1/2" dowel
4" 1/4" dowel
2 cable ties
cordless drill & 1/4 drill bit
large paper clips
screw hook
rubber bands
large sewing needle

Cut peg board into 3 8" x 4' lengths. Cable tie 2 lengths together in the middle. This will give you an 8' board which folds neatly in half for storage. I've never made a leader longer than 8', but you have the capability to do up to a 12' leader by adding in the third section.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/Milehimbr/PegBoard.jpg

Cut the 1/2 dowel into 8 2" pieces and the 1/4' dowel into 8 1/2' pieces. Drill a 1/4" x 1/4" hole centered into each of the 1/2" dowel pieces and insert the 1/4" dowel secured with a bit of wood glue into each. Originally I cut a wafer out of 1/2 dowel and drilled a 1/4 hole through it to secure the peg on the bottom side of the board. This is not necessary. The peg board has plenty of integrity to hold the peg without the locking wafer.


Spacing for the pegs is based on other people's formulas, I've not experimented with spacing. This is what was recommended.

Six Foot Leader

Left side
Top peg
26"
52"
72"

Right side
Top Peg
42"
61"
72"


8 Foot Leader

Left side
Top peg
35"
70"
96"

Right side
Top Peg
56"
82"
96"

Longer or shorter leader are made using proportional lengths as follows:

Any Length

Left side
Top peg
.364
.727
1.0

Right side
Top Peg
.590
.855
1.0

With your pegs positioned, you are now ready to make furled leaders.

Start by putting a loop in you material slip it over the first peg and trim off the tag. I use a perfection loop due to its small size. I use 6/0 unithread. I also heard of guys using 8/0 unithread. Your imagination and objective is the only limitation here.

Make the appropriate number of turns between the top and second pegs. The one I made for you was (I think) 6-4-3. The one I'm making in the pics is an 8-5-3. A little beefier, a little more powerful to turn over larger flies. In deciding the number of turns to make keep in mind the number of turns on the bottom peg. I've always used 3. You could do two, or even 1, but I haven't because I want to be sure it is strong enough not to break.

On your last top turn, go down and around the 3rd peg, come up past the second peg passing your thread between the two sides of the top section and then back down. This interlocks the sections, you are not wrapping your thread around the second peg. Make the chosen number of turns and repeat procedure down to the bottom peg. On your last turn, pull the thread snug and half hitch it where it passes through the second loop, trim the tag close.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/Milehimbr/ThruLoop.jpg

You now have one leg done, repeat procedure on the right hand side of the board. For the 2nd leg, be sure your initial loop is either longer or shorter than the first so the knots don't end up in the same place creating a lump in your line.

Next you need to twist both legs in the same direction. For this you will use a cordless drill, 3 paper clips, 3 rubber bands and a screw hook. First cut your large paper clips with an angle cut to leave a hook on each end. File the cuts, removing any burrs so that each comes to a smooth point. Secure the screw hook into the drill chuck, connect the paper clip and the screw hook with a rubber band hook the bottom loop of the thread with the open end of the paper clip. Gently lift the thread off the pegs leaving the top loop on the top peg. Put moderate tension on the rubber band and begin turning. You want to turn until the thread has been reduced in length by 10%. Therefore, if you're making a 6' leader, make a mark 7" up the board and keep turning until the thread reaches that point. Slip the rubber band off your screw hook and back over the bottom peg. The rubber band is very important because it allows you to keep relatively even pressure on the thread throughout the process. Once you start turning you cannot release tension on the thread until your done with the reverse twist. Repeat twisting procedure on the right leg.

Next you need to bring the two legs together. Take another prepared paper clip, hook one end of the paper clip through the middle of a rubber band leaving two open ends of the rubber band. Hook the other end of the paper clip through the open loop of the right top section and pull it off the peg. Keeping tension on the thread, hook the left leg with the paper clip pulling it off the top peg and place both open loops of the rubber band over the top peg.

Go down to the left side of the bottom section . Insert the sewing needle between the thread and the paper clip pushing back against the thread to create a gap between the paper clip and the thread. Once created, with your free hand, grab the paper clip on the right leg, slipping it off the bottom loop and hook the left leg with the paper clip. Keeping tension on the thread, remove the paper clip from the left leg, bringing the two legs together on one clip. Reverse the drill, hook the screw hook through the rubber band, tension the rubber band and reverse twist the leader until it reaches the original length. Remove the rubber band from the paper clips. Attach a weight to the bottom end paper clip and hang the top end where the leader can hang freely. Allow it turn until it reaches its natural "relaxed state, and run your fingers down the line a few times to be sure all the twist is out.

At this point, before adding the end loops, I thoroughly water proof the entire leader with "Silicone Water-Guard" heavy duty water and stain repellant. It comes in an aerosol can, which I get from Rite - Aid.

Once the waterproofing has thoroughly dried, the final step is adding loops to both ends. Apply Green Mucillin (silicone based) to the first inch or so of the butt end. Cut approximately 10 inches of 14# mono and slip one end through the top loop of the leader, and the other end through the opposite side of the top loop. Remove the paper clip and pull the ends of the mono down to from a fairly small loop. With one strand of the mono make a nail knot and pull it up snug against the top end of the leader. With the free end of mono, (running underneath the 1st nail knot) size the loop down a little smaller than you want the final loop to be. Form another nail knot with this end and draw it up snugly and securely against the top nail knot. Trim tag ends. The mucillin is very important to this step. Without it, the mono tends to grab the thread leader when tightening the nail knot and is very difficult to draw up into a tight knot.

For the bottom loop I like to use 2x. Again, apply green Mucillin to the first inch or so of the leader. In order to create a gap to insert the mono I have to use the sewing needle inserted between the thread and the paper clip again in order to get enough room. Once the mono has been inserted through opposite sides of the bottom loop, remove paper clip, repeat back to back nail knots, apply green mucillin to the whole leader, and you're done. For making the nail knot, a one inch section of the tube which comes with a WD-40 can works great.

The most difficult and tedious part of making furled leaders is attaching the end loops. I think a perfection loop attached with a single nail knot through the end loop would probably be as effective as the double nail knot I use. I think the double nail knot makes a better looking finish, but is significantly more difficult.

Hope this helps Mike. Let me know if you are successful.

Joseph

Jgoding
02-14-2005, 12:04 PM
Great topic..

I found this link online as well. Joseph, you did a great job explaining and posting the calculations. This site has basically the same stuff with a complete table for leader sizes etc.. I believe or you might have to follow the global flyfisher link (marty joergenson one...) I hope I spelled that right...here it is:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/freaner/furling/furled.htm


Jeff

Hairstacker
02-14-2005, 01:13 PM
Joseph, "hope this helps"? Wow, that is incredible!!! THANKS!!! I can see there is more to this than I realized. This is a project to go along with my in-process-pram project, ha. Thank you very much, I will definitely be studying your instructions. (Hairstacker starts to wonder where his Home Depot card is .... :D )

Joseph
02-14-2005, 09:23 PM
This pretty much outlines the process. Thanks to Jeff for posting it. I had seen it before but had forgotten about it.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/freaner/furling/furling.jpg

Hairstacker
02-14-2005, 10:07 PM
Joseph, thanks(!!!), the picture really helps. Without the picture, I'm not sure I would have figured out that peg 4 serves merely as a corner and that you don't do loops around it. Thanks again!!!

Bill Kiene semi-retired
02-15-2005, 12:36 AM
Joe,

I have an entire new respect for your typing ability.

Great info..................thanks for sharing.

Joseph
02-15-2005, 09:36 AM
Bill - My typing days are over. That is all cut and paste. After 2 surgeries on my hands to get rid of numbness this is the most typing you'll see out of me.