pegging beads

[mikebias]

Bill and friends,

What are the current thoughts as to pegging beads for steelhead? I know some of the local guides are using it while other guides frown upon it. Any thoughts?

mike

[Adam Grace]

Interesting question Mike. I'm not too crazy about pegging. I think that there is more opportunity to snag the fish. :(

On the other hand I have heard from customers that most of the time you fair hook the fish. :roll: I guess that it has to do with how far above the hook you peg the bead.

What have you others guy heard or experienced?

[David Lee]

Hi Mike , I hope this dosen't offend anybody too much ....

In my opinion , a PLASTIC BEAD (pegged , or melted on a hook) is the same as squrting Dr. Juice on a glo-bug (or , for that matter , using a gummy-minnow) ... Fine on your spinning rig , but not quite pukka on a fly rod . Imagine if the "hot" new fly was a Mr. Twister grub super-glued onto a hook ! You have to draw the line somewhere , and this is where I have .
Trout and Steelhead will take an egg-fly deep sometimes (as I'm sure you know , since you catch more of those fish than I do ) , but they will also take just about ANY fly deep sometimes - we have to accept that and realise that fishing is a BLOOD SPORT and fish die once in a while .

If I'm not mistaken , the pegged bead is used so fish will be hooked OUTSIDE the mouth , and thus not gill-hooked . What if the hook is in the eye ?? Better than a gill/throat hookup ?? As long as pegging is within the law , I think people should try it and form an opinion . In my case , I don't think I'd sleep too good if I did it .

I think the true beauty of fly fishing is that we can make the rules with regards to how we do it - these are only MY opinions , I wouldn't "shoot-on-sight" anybody with a stupid bead on their tippet , but I wouldn't run over and pat 'em on the head .

Please send hate mail to my P.M. or Email address , and have a GREAT day !! Regards , David J. Lee

[MSP]

I don't think pegging is such a bad thing. Is it flyfishing? Up to the angler. One thing I do know is when someone is just starting out with a fly rod catching fish with any method can gain you confidence. After you've been flyfishing for 30 years the method becomes more important than the catching. I'm by no means a purist but I don't care for indicators and don't like to use a 2 fly setup, but I hate to say I do use both methods when the conditions require it. I try to stay away from those conditions. A 2 fly setup does give you an advantage when trying to figure out what is going on. Give me a dry fly, I love to see the refusals! :wink:

my 2 cents worth,

mike

[Jgoding]

I personally wouldn't peg a bead onto my line nor glue anything to a hook as a fly "pattern". Saying that, if you follow the outlines for pegging a bead that are legal, I am not going to hold anything against you. If that's how you catch fish, go for it... but I would expect you to release any foul hooked fish and to re-evaluate the method if you are snagging fish consistently.

jeff

[Terry Thomas]

I have less problem with pegging a bead than adding one of those plastic cones in front of the fly like they talked about in the latest issue of Fly Fisherman Mag.
Terry

[Darian]

Hello everyone,..... Interesting isn't it :?: :?: Each of your notes reflects a difference in what is acceptable or not in terms of rigging. Personally, I've never pegged beads. Altho, I've fished all of the methods described (dry flies, two/three fly casts, indicators, etc.). 8) 8)

Aside from the ethical issues involved in setting up a rig to hook a fish outside the mouth, it seems to me that there might be a legal problem using pegged beads as opposed to beads affixed directly above a hook. Not an expert but F&G regs mandate that all fish hooked outside the mouth are not legally hooked. also, federal regs might see that method as harrassing of spawning fish. Not allowed for endangered species. :(

I've been told by unnamed persons, that pegging beads is intended to snag fish.... :( Now, if you're a person who's surviving by the fish you catch, maybe that's OK. 8) I, also, believe that some locations where fish are not likely to spawn successfully and are trapped, should not be off limits to "snagging". 8) Such as, the area between Nimbus dam and Hazel Ave. Bidge..... Otherwise, it's doesn't appear acceptable. In the final analysis, it seems like a matter of personal choice. 8) 8)

[brad_harrington]

I've been lucky enough to fish up in Alaska a couple times on guided trips for trout gorging on eggs. Both times the de facto method was indicator nymphing with pegged beads and barbless hooks. All catch and release. Pegged beads seems pretty standard in Alaska, from what I've seen and read. The bead is pegged about 1 inch above the hook with a piece of toothpick. This always seemed odd to me but when I asked the guides up there they said it was because the pegged beads are better for the fish, that it reduced the mortality rates because you're more likely to hook them on the side of the mouth rather than deep in the throat. In the 100+ trout that we hooked up there, I think there was one or two that was hooked in the nose, outside the mouth. In general, the guides are very sensitive to the mortality rates of the trout, the prefer to not handle them at all, so I've always assumed the pegged beads are better for the fish.

They also said that they catch more fish with beads vs glo-bugs but I've tried both methods quite a bit and I don't see much of a difference in terms of the #'s of fish caught.

[Crusty]

I have to agree with brad. I've fished rainbows with beads in Alaska for the last 4 Octobers and have very few foul hooked fish. IMHO most of the foul-hooked fish killer stories are from "purists" who haven't even fished beads.

According to the AKDFG the bead is not a fly...it is an attractor..it must be attached (pegged or otherwise) within a certain length to the hook ( I believe 1&1/2 inches). Since they aren't flies, you can't use them with bare hooks in fly-fishing only waters. Most guides will use a maggot pattern with the bead or just wrap hooks with 5-6 wraps of thread to comply with the regs.

My favorite way to fish them is without an indicator. I probably miss more takes than I hook. If this was a snagging rig, I wouldn't miss any.

Look down on beads all you want, but from my experience they work much better and kill way less fish than glo-bugs.

$0.02

Crusty

[BSD]

Just want to say the last two posts sound correct to me. I also took a trip to Alaska and a fly shop there taught me how to peg it with a toothpick and how to fish it. Hooked about 50 dollies and rainbows and only had one foul hooked. Seems like a lot of people say they hear pegging foul hooks the fish, but I don't think they tried it, just "heard" it. As to whether or not it should be considered fly fishing, I don't know, it's up to the fisher I guess ...

[matooka]

Although contraversial, pegging is an effective method of catching fish! However, depending on the distance between the hook and the bead, and the timing of the hook set, pegging will do damage to the fish if it isn't performed correctly. Even so, there are no guarantees! I learned pegging on the Lower Sac from a reputable fly fishing guide. Since, every time I fish the Lower Sac, my primary method of catching fish begins with a pegged bead! What I've learned is that the hook needs to be within an inch from a # 12 hook. Anymore, and your chances of hooking the fish unethically(snagging) increases. Unfortunately, the closer you attempt to tie the hook to the bead, the more difficult the knot becomes to tie. Use hemostats! A smaller hook is less likely to do damage than a larger #10 or #8. Being tardy on the hook set also increases the possibility of damaging the fish! Unfortunately, I speak from experience. Bottom line, I've damaged fish with larger, traditional nymphs as well!
Am I a purist? Obviously not! Do I have a passion for catching fish with a fly rod? Absolutely! Inside the lip or outside the lip, fish on! To each there own!

[Darian]

In the replies, so far, there seems to be a need to categorize between being a "purist" or not. Personally, I could care less about that need. Nor, do I want to spend time on that aspect. We're only discussing a method here...... :D Keep in mind that this is purely for the sake of discussion.... 8)

There is a question about this method that still remains unanswered for me. :? That question is, when does hooking a fish outside the mouth become snagging :?: :?: Is it outside of the mouth, altogether, or outside of a one inch radius around the mouth or some other measurement :?: :?: It seems to me that all of the arguments put forth to support the use of "pegged beads" (high catch rates, low mortality, etc.) apply equally well to hooking a fish in the tail or the dorsal area. Yet, those methods constitute "snagging" and an "Illegal method of take" in California. :? :?

Now, it also seems to me that if a low mortality rate is a good thing, one could make the argument that all fish should be taken through some form of hooking outside of the mouth (e.g. snagging). :shock: Probably not worth worrying about unless one is confronted with the question by a Game Warden :P :P

[Crusty]

Darian,

Have you ever gone over to the dark side and fished a bead? If so, how many fish were foul-hooked (snagged)? If you've never fished a bead, how can you make assumptions about how the the fish are hooked. I've foul-hooked (snagged) more fish (%-wise) the few times I've used a two fly rig (another dark side technique?) than with beads.

I repeat, the overwhelming number (>95%) of fish I catch with a bead are hooked in the corner of the mouth with a #12 or #10 hook, are your results different? I've never hooked (snagged) a fish in the dorsal or tail area with a bead, but 25 years ago I did with a Mepp's Spinner (the ultimate dark side technique).

As far as your unanswered question, any fish hooked outside the mouth is foul-hooked (snagged). Of course all my fish are released, but if I wanted to kill and eat my fish a glo-bug (approved technique?) would be a good option since, for me, it has a much higher mortality rate.

Crusty

[Darian]

Crusty,.... Getting a little testy are we :?: :?: Actually, I think we need to acknowledge that beads or flies or lures all present the same problem in use as a snagging tool and each of us has had similar experiences. With few exceptions, fishing regs in Alaska are not the same as in Calfornia. So, experiences in Alaska don't necessarily apply. 8) Let's get one thing straight, I'm not condemning the pegged beads or any other method. I'm asking questions to try to understand how we, including myself, can justify using what appears to be an illegal method because it's productive. All of the arguments presented in support, thus far, apply equally to the guy who goes down to the AR (or elsewhere) with a large treble hook wrapped with lead.

Back to the discussion..... For "Beads", the issue seems to be settling down to where, on the leader, the beads are pegged. You don't say where your's are placed so one must make an assumption, from your results, that the beads are placed closely to the hook. I think it's safe to say that the farther away from the hook the beads are pegged, the more likely that the hook will set up outside the mouth. So, maybe if the beads are pegged close (within an inch) to the hook, everything is OK :?: :?:

If I understand the regs in California, correctly, anything that would result in consistently snagged fish is seen as a "Illegal method of Take" or snagging (subject to interpretation). That includes use of flies with wide gape hooks in certain waters. I'd sure like to hear from DFG on this..... Wonder if there're any warden's following this :?:

Regardless of our collective experience/results, any method that doesn't comply with the law in California (sinced that is where we're fishing) should not be used.

[Crusty]

Darian,

Testy? No. Confused? Yes.

You say beading = snagging with no personal experience to back it up, only "unnamed persons". We agree to disagree on this point. I've never beaded in Ca, but I imagine my hook to snag ratio would be similar to my experiences in Ak. I do peg the bead within 1" to the hook like you assumed.

Having never beaded here, I didn't bother to check the Ca regs, but you perked my interest with your questioning of the legalities of beading. A quick on-line look at the DFG booklet yielded the following.

Definition of Angling: to take fish by hook and line with the line attached to a pole or rod held in the hand or closely attended in such a manner that fish voluntarily the bait or lure in it's mouth. (page 5)

Fishing Methods General: All fish may be taken only by angling....(page 10)

There is a lengthy description of hook sizes and the distance allowed between a weight and the hook...obviously outlawing snagging...but I couldn't find any reg about distance between a lure or bait and the hook..if I missed it, please point it out to me. I also didn't see a section on "illegal method of take". I'm not familar with "large treble hooks and lead", but do these snaggers (poachers) have a lure or bait and follow the regs on weight and hook placement? If not, please don't compare them to beading since the fish voluntarily take the bead into their mouth.

I'm sure the DFG will address the issue of beading like AK as beading here becomes more popular, but I found nothing in the current regs regulating it. I, like most fly-fisherman, follow all regs (too afraid of bad karma). Please point out any regulations you can find on the subject.

$0.04

Crusty

[Digger]

I think that experiences from anywhere (incl Ak) may in fact apply here. It doesn’t matter what part of the country it may originate from as long as it’s not illegal or unethical.
I think whether or not it’s for the true ‘purist’ or traditional fly fisher is secondary to what the impact is on the resource itself. If the results of a certain method of take are overwhelmingly positive and undisputed, and do not fall outside current regulations, they ought to be adopted, or at least promoted by those of use who care enough to fish with conscientious intent.

We all know how just responsive a bureaucratic agency (DFG) is in keeping up with the latest thing. I would not hesitate to incorporate another method/technique that may not be the norm or traditional if it were less harmful to the fish.

I’m certainly going to opt for the less invasive surgery available, and not opt for any traditional open surgery if I have that option. (perhaps that’s not the best analogy) :roll:

[Darian]

Hi Crusty,.... First, I've avoided saying that I've used beads as it doesn't contribute anything to the context of this discussion and doesn't address the question of legality of the method. Obviously, you feel I have to have experienced fishing with beads in order to make a decision about the legality of the method. I disagree with that premise. :)

As to your claim of 95% rate of hookups in the mouth, I'm giving you credit for keeping logs of actual counts for this activity in order to cite that percentage..... 8) 8)

As to your "Illegal Method of Take" reference, I refer you to the California Code of Regulations (CCR), Title 14., related to Natural Resources and the California Fish & Game Code, too lengthy to cite here. You can access these codes the same way I did thru the DFG website or through The state site at www.leginfo.ca.gov. Now, having pointed the way, some of this requires more interpretation and is not expressly stated in the regs but is in the code. I've done some interpretation (based on my own research) and that is the basis for my question..... 8) 8) By the way, "Illegal Method of Take" is, also, a category of citations issued for fishing violations reflected in the annual Enforcement Branch Citation Summary of DFG. 8) 8) This summary contains a listing of the number of citations issued as a percentage of the total number. You can obtain additonal information on this subject by contacting DFG direct. 8) 8)

All of this aside, It seems to me that as you pointed out, reasonable people can agree to disagree. So, I have asked, for the purposes of this discussion, is anything that results in the hooking of fish outside of the mouth of a fish snagging and, therefore, illegal in California. Until I hear an answer from an expert in this area, I will assert that position. :D :D

So, I think we've about done this subject in, at this point..... 8) In spite of the difference of opinion, I've enjoyed it and hope to engage you and all of rest on something equally interesting in the future. I wish you many more and continued success on your trips to Alaska :D :D

[Darian]

Digger,..... Sorry, you must've posted while I was doing the same.....

I find little to disagree with in your note. However, I do not concur that experience in AK is the same as in CA (legally). I'd be willing to wager that Regs in AK are not the same as they are here.....

Not wishing to pursue this much further, I'd like to close by saying that we as fisherman need to start paying more than lip-service to the regs and the F&G game code which is the basis for the reg's. When a method is ID'ed that will benefit fish/us, we need to be able to advocate it; not only to the DFG but to legislators and other influential persons. But it needs to be based on more than anecdotal evidence..... 8) 8)

ENOUGH of this, I'M OUTA HERE :!: :!: :roll:

[David Lee]

Very impressive .... No name calling , raving , drooling , or cursing . That's what makes this board - we don't have to agree , we just have to be civil . Thanks to you all for the THOUGHTFUL responces . Good job ! David Lee

[Hairstacker]

I've really appreciated this discussion. I've never used a bead as discussed, so it's been very informative for me to hear both sides and get a sense of the pulse on this subject. Having said that, it also occurred to me that globugs may strike some as inappropriate, as some have noted that fish sometimes take these too deep? I've never used globugs either but did buy some yarn and hooks to tie some up. Now I'm starting to wonder whether I should forego them? Anyone have strong feelings on this subject? Are they more often taken deeper than, say, various nymph and leech patterns?

[Darian]

Hi Mike,..... (Here I go again :roll: ) I believe that use of glo bugs was touched upon in one or more of the above posts and that there are some valid concerns about mortality rates using this type of fly.... 8)

I sometimes use a fly that resembles an egg (made of chenille/marabou) under an indicator and haven't experienced a problem with larger fish. However, I have hooked small trout deeply with it..... Not confident that these small trout made it after release. :( It's not my favorite fly.... Think I'll back off on this one and try to pick up on how others feel about it.... 8)

[PaulC]

I figured I would pipe in here as I recently gave bead fishing a shot on the T.
In our four day trip at total of 21 fish were brought to hand.
Of these fish, 2 were on nymph, a couple on glowbug and the rest on beads.
With a glowbug dropper and a bead above, the fish almost consistently took the bead. Same color although difference in water column height doesn't make this an entirely valid science experiment.
Not one fish was snagged.
All beads were pegged no more than 1" above the hook. I believe the reg in AK is no more than 2" from the hook.
In addition, I found they were less of a deep mouth hook than previous experience with glowbugs.
As far as I can tell from the above posts and my own research, there is no california law that would exclude an angler from using this technique.
Based on my observation, it could in no legal or factual means be classified as snagging.

I used to be of the "No tie no Fly" mentality, but gave this a shot in preparation for a trip to Alaska. I think it is an effective alternative to glow bugs. With all of the synthetic material in flies these days, beads I guess are not really that far removed. Otters' soft eggs anyone? Hot glue gun eggs? Bead melted onto the hook shank?

-Paul

I should point out that the last fish of the trip for me was a toad on a blue copper john and yes it is always even more fun catching on something created at the bench.

[Adam Grace]

Nice post PaulC.

[Darian]

Since there still appears to be some interest in this subject, I asked DFG for a reference in the regs/code in an E-mail to describe snagging. Their response follows:


Darian,

The answer to your new question is found in two regulations:

Definition Angling (FGC 86):
To take fish by hook and line with the line held in the hand, or with
the line attached to a pole or rod held in the hand or closely attended
in such manner that the fish voluntarily takes the bait or lure in its
mouth.

Definition Method of Take (T14 2.00):
All fish may be taken only by angling with one closely attended rod and
line or one hand line with not more than three hooks nor more than three
artificial lures (each lure may have three hooks attached) attached
thereto

As you can see, fish must be taken by "Angling". In order to be
angling, the fish must voluntarily take a lure or bait in its mouth.
Therefore, any fish taken by means other than in the mouth would be
illegally taken. We commonly refer to this as "Snagging".

The "snagging" term comes from T14 section 48 which defines a snag hook as a hook used to take fish where the fish does not take the hook in its mouth.

Hope that helps!


So, DFG's response would seem to confirm that pegging beads could be a snagging technique if the distance between where the beads are pegged in relation to the hook results in hooking fish outside of the mouth. 8) The method is undoubtedly productive as everyone has agreed.

[Crusty]

Darian,

Once again your logic evades me. If the fish doen't voluntarily take the bead AND hook in it's mouth, then how does the hook get inside the mouth? You scarcastically complimented me on my >95% hook to snag ratio and made no mention of PaulC's 100% hook to snag ratio. These hooks get inside the mouth somehow.

If you feel the bead AND hook do not get in the mouth voluntarily, perhaps you can tell me how this is happening.

Crusty

[PaulC]

They say a pic is worth a thousand words. Hope this works...I haven't tried this linking stuff before.
Bead/hook in mouth (red bead) near roof of mouth.
Only picture I could find from the trip that was pre-dehooking.
The fish was released and swam away like a rocket.
The other thing I noticed was that the bead tended to slide down towards the hook during a take and most of the time the hook was butted up to the bead when released.
I might have been doing this wrong and not pegging hard enough...I have no idea.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v715/Cronin/steelie_2.jpg

[Darian]

Hi Crusty,.... I did not intend my reply to be sarcastic and apologize if that was how it was taken. I assumed that a person who could quote a percentage probably had logs to back that up. Many fly fisherman do that as a matter of course. My mistake.... :( Again, I intended no offense to you.)

As to my logic, I can't explain it any differently than I have. I believe, at this point that there is not a difference of opinion between us. You appear to be taking my statement of the illegality of snagging for a condemnation of the method, overall. That is not what I've said or itended. My whole premise has been to exercise caution in placing the beads while using the method. 8) The farther the beads are from the hook, the more likely it will be that a fish is consistently hooked outside of the mouth and, thus, snagged. Have you heard of the term "flossing" :?: :?: If so, it could apply to this method.... if used incorrectly. That could result in issuance of a citation and an expensive fine.

Since the original question came from a local guide, he needs (and may already know) to have an answer that probably won't put his license in jeopardy. Keeping that in mind, I've treated this topic differently (more formal) than others I've participated in on this BB. 8) 8)

I sincerely apologize for any offense taken as a result of my comments.

[Darian]

Paul,.... What a beautiful fish and great picture. 8) Made my day. :D :D

[Crusty]

Nice fish PaulC!

In regards to you bead sliding, try pegging with a piece of mono (about 150lb) instead of a toothpick. If the mono's the right size it won't slip. I also like the mono because it's clear and I don't have two browns spots on my bead. Downside is you can't slip the bead up to re-tie when the line frays. I carry a poker (a piece of welding rod stuck into a piece of deer antler) to push the mono out to reuse the bead.

Darian,

I'm glad you now don't think fishing with beads is synonymous with snagging. I agree with you about hook placement, and that applies to many other situations (tube flies, marlin lures, tuna feathers, J-plugs, etc.).

Crusty

[Hairstacker]

Very nice fish Paul! I bet he put up a heck of a fight too. 8)

[Adam Grace]

Beautiful Steelhead Paul. Great coloration, still very bright. Good girth and length.

That is one hell of a steelhead :!:

Thanks fot posting the picture, see it's not too hard.

[mikebias]

Wow! Didn't think the original post would generate so much interest. I was surprized that the thread went from 'purists', to legality, to directions on how best to ... uh, more effectively hook, a steelhead.

But, alas, I figured out how to 'peg' all my flies. Here goes:

First, tie a your fly of choice onto your tippet (this will even work for dry flies, probably super effective). Be careful to leave several inches of tag end.

Second cut the hook part of your fly off. That's right , go ahead grab you pliers or dikes, and cut off the the hook.

Now, leaving only 1 inch, tie a no 10 Eagle Claw egg hook to the tag end. A no 10 because 12 is too small and 8 damages the fish. (And, of course we only want an inch because we don't want to be called a snagger, as we found out 4 to 6 inches would be snagging.)

There you have it, a pegged nymph, dry, or even streamer. But don't fish 'em under an indicator cuz that's not fly fishin'.

mike

[MSP]

Hey Mike,

I was trying to make sense of all this, but I think you've got it! :lol:

[Crusty]

Hey Mike,

Like MSP says...ya got it! But, you forgot to smash your barbs!

Crusty

[PaulC]

Just finally set down and read through the feb issue of fly fisherman.
There was a good article on tube flies which function in a very similar manner as beads with the hook offset from the fly.
We have been using the Gamagatsu #4 octopus hooks also as they are extremely tacky. Can't wait to try out the new bonefish hooks for the surf!

Also attached is a link to my report on a coastal trip up north. My buddy got a few small ones, but we got to see one large (>10 lbs) coastal steelie landed by an older gentleman. Definitely cool.
You guys have some great water up there salt or fresh.

http://www.garybulla.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=1582

As you can tell by the site, i'm mostly a saltwater angler except during the winter.
If you're down in the Santa Barbara area, post on the bulla board and I'll see if I can show you around.

-Paul

[Hairstacker]

Great report Paul, thanks! Nice pictures too! :D