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View Full Version : Crimp your barbs! Yuba DFG rangers checking!!



ffgenie
02-04-2005, 05:33 PM
File or crimp those barbs!

I was on the Yuba ~ 4 days ago below the bridge, and a DFG guy was checking regulations - the whole works - license, asking about the rules, etc. He asked to see my stimulator, and tested the barb on his shirt.

It got stuck but he let it slide saying he could see I tried to crimp the barb down as best I could. He did warn that other colleagues would probably have ticketed nonetheless.

In fact, he told me one week ago, another colleague was out on the Yuba on the weekend and ticketed a whole slew of people for barb issues.

Don't say you haven't been warned!

-Gene C

Adam Grace
02-04-2005, 08:29 PM
Thanks for the reminder :!:

Barbless fly fishing is a sporting way to fish that will never get you in trouble for unfamiliar regulated fishing water.

Sometimes hemostats can only crush the barbs down partially. I generally take my specialized barb crushers to the flies that I purchase. I crush the barbs before I tie my flies. Any vise should easily crush most barbs.

Barbless flies add more challenge to our challenging sport :!:

Hairstacker
02-04-2005, 08:46 PM
I crimp down the barbs of ALL my hooks, even the ones I use for bass and bluegill. Yet, I've noticed when I pull them out of fleece patches on my vest or hat that they tend to catch. After hearing last year that rangers were testing hooks on their shirts, I started converting my stock of trout hooks over to barbless. Unfortunately, not all of the manufacturers stock a full range of hooks in barbless models (Tiemco is pretty good about that, though) and very few fly shops carry a decent range of models and sizes (I suspect they don't sell well). Pretty sad that it's not good enough to make a good faith effort to ensure a barb is well-crimped....

Adam Grace
02-04-2005, 09:02 PM
Hairstacker, We do carry quite a bit of TMC barbless hooks. We switched over most of our hooks two years ago because Bill likes to promote barbless fishing.

I'm glad to hear that you only fish barbless. NICE :!:

DonCooksey
02-04-2005, 10:27 PM
I have had trouble recently with weakened hooks that I smashed the barbs down on. I had three or four #18 hooks break on pheasant tail nymph patterns when fishing big fish on Tim Alper's pond this last fall. Of course, these were 7-12 pound fish, but I was fishing with 4X or 5X tippet, so the hook should not have been the first thing to break. I was happy to net one 25-inch rainbow, but I had never experienced the broken hooks like that. All the more reason for tying with barbless hooks when available in the needed styles. Any others with this problem? I use a pair of flat needle-nose pliers to smash the barbs down, but I am not aware of putting any additional pressure on the curve of the hook (where it breaks) while smashing the barb. Anyone else had fun being towed around in a float tube by a big fish?

Bill Kiene semi-retired
02-04-2005, 11:37 PM
I wish it would just go all barbless for many reasons.

The biggest one is the safety of all fly fishers.

I have an old friend who was up on the Trinity River a long time ago(10years?) and they had a barbless rule mostly to help in the summer salmon snagging. He did not have any idea and would never knowing break the law. I think he got a fine and had to pay over $1000. He was so personally upset by this that he will never go up there again.

I hear they do pull your fly into some material and if it catches they can give you a ticket.

If you pinch dow all your barbs you don't have to worry.

Darian
02-04-2005, 11:47 PM
Hi Don,..... a size 18 hook doesn't present much of a gap to insert a pair of needlenose pliers..... :? Maybe the edge of the jaw is, inadvertantly, touching the bend of the hook :?: :?: I've been using a pair of flatnose or duckbill pliers with success but don't tie flies that small... :wink:

It really bothers me that DFG Wardens don't have some uniform standard for testing whether a hook is debarbed or not. :? Establishing/publishing a standard is not rocket science. Setting a uniform standard would protect the resource, allow fishermen to easily obey the law and eliminate any hostile reactions to issuance of citations.

I have a lot of respect for for DFG wardens because they have a tough job and do it alone for the most part. Wardens have, as part of their duties, the assessment of fees on commercial fishing operations, etc. In view of that and poaching/smuggling activities in this state, I don't see this activity as the highest use of limited warden resources.

Rob
02-05-2005, 08:37 AM
There are a lot of cheap hooks out. :evil: I have had a problem with the barb breaking off or the hooks breaking. :cry: These are on the flies I buy.
I have a file for the ones that the barbs break off.
Rob

Adam Grace
02-05-2005, 03:11 PM
Rob, good point about using a file or hone to file down the stubs of a broken off barb. The remaining stub of metal could easily be considered a barb.

It is smart and safe idea to file bown those stubs to decrease or eliminate any problems with DFG wardens.

Jgoding
02-05-2005, 08:44 PM
A lot of guys use their fly tying vise to do it as well. Stick the hookin facing down and twist it.... but I don't know, I wouldn't put my vice jaws through that wear and tear personally.

Jeff

Jeff Putnam
02-08-2005, 02:01 PM
Smash them barbs!!! As Bill Kiene said it best, " I want to protect my customers from having to remove a barbed hook from their skin". No one wants to end a fishing trip to head to the hospital to have a hook removed. Some think that barbless hooks loose fish. The truth is "slack" is really to blame. Randall Kaufmann has written some excellent articles on barbed hooks and landing ratios way back in the early 80's and has never blamed barbless hooks for lost fish. Last June I was guiding two striper clients on the American and a slight breeze came up and my client in the back of the boat made a cast but the flyline and fly never turned over on the water, not to mention the unforgettable sound of a hook entering skin with a "slapping" sound, ouch! I turned around a saw a 3/0 couser hanging from his ear... clean through. Thank goodness I smashed the barb 3 casts before he hooked himself, so we were able to remove it and continue fishing. I was not so lucky three years ago when I sunk a 4/0 into my arm while being towed through the air by a 400 grain depth finder...not fun and a valueable lesson was learned....always keep electrical tape in your gear bag, its make great adhesive bandage! jp

Jay Murakoshi
02-08-2005, 02:22 PM
I recommend to all our clients to smash the barbs down, not only for their safety but for my safety also. I don't know how many times I've pulled flies out of peoples neck, ears, head, back and butt. We've also had our guide hit once.
Now I'm not talking trout flies, I'm talking big saltwater flies like 1/0 to 5/0 hooks. You know the kind with those big meaty barbs. If you down in Baja with Ken & I and if by chance you get the point, you'll pay a visit to Dr. Murakoshi who uses a 50lb piece of mono as his sterile hook remover.
Besides, you won't drop that many fish

Jay

Digger
02-09-2005, 12:05 PM
It really bothers me that DFG Wardens don't have some uniform standard for testing whether a hook is debarbed or not. :? Establishing/publishing a standard is not rocket science. Setting a uniform standard would protect the resource, allow fishermen to easily obey the law and eliminate any hostile reactions to issuance of citations.

I have a lot of respect for for DFG wardens because they have a tough job and do it alone for the most part. Wardens have, as part of their duties, the assessment of fees on commercial fishing operations, etc. In view of that and poaching/smuggling activities in this state, I don't see this activity as the highest use of limited warden resources.

This is a very good "point" (sorry)
There should be a 'go/no go' test that eliminates subjectivity amongst enforcement. Looking down the road, if in fact the wardens get reassigned out of DFG's control, we could have several groups of rangers/wardens/state police, etc enforcing regulations and each with their own criteria.

Digger
02-09-2005, 12:10 PM
Rob, good point about using a file or hone to file down the stubs of a broken off barb. The remaining stub of metal could easily be considered a barb.

It is smart and safe idea to file bown those stubs to decrease or eliminate any problems with DFG wardens.

A word of caution here... getting carried away with a file can leave a weak spot in the metal, a stress point which will be exactly where the hook breaks, right after you get taken into the backing!
If you do file off the barb, ensure that spot is smooth.

Darian
02-14-2005, 02:05 PM
Hello everyone,..... If you re-read the prior posts, you will see the question concerning the need for a uniform test to determine if a hook is legally barbless. I sent an inquiry to DFG asking if the shirt test was the standard. Following is the DFG reply:

Mr Calhoun,

Interesting test for barbless you described. I have not heard of it,
yet it does sound like it is an accurate measure of "barbless".

What I remember doing was running my finger along the edge of the hook
and if it caught on the skin, it was still barbed. Either method would
work and we do not describe a certain test for barbless. The bottom
line is the hook needs to not have a barb. If it is crimped down, it
must be to the point that there is nothing to catch on the inside of the
fishes mouth.

The safest way is to use truly barbless hooks, or to file them smooth.

Thank You for your interest.

(I'm not going to ID the individual who responded for obvious reasons but he is an administrator @ DFG. DFG staff have been completely open and forthcoming with info every time I've asked. Very unusual in State Government in this day/age.)

The response indicates that there is no objective/standardized test in place. Whatever test is used by field staff (warden's) is subjective and may differ between regions or wardens. This means that anytime you are confronted by a warden and asked to produce your fly(s) for examination, you/we are at risk..... Now having said that, I do not mean that we should condemn DFG staff for this practice. For the most part, they try to be fair/reasonable in exercising their authority.

I do believe that establishing an objective/standardized test would be preferable to fishermen (all of us) and reduce the amount of stress on DFG from dealing with confused and sometimes hostile members of the public.

Darian
02-28-2005, 03:39 PM
Hello everyone,.... Took some time to get additional information from DFG about this subject. I found that DFG is listening and would be open to a suggestion for a standardized test to determine if a hook barbless. 8) 8)

Is there any interest on the part of members of this BB in pursuing this subject with DFG :?: :?: If so, what would you suggest as a standard test :?: My personaql opinion is that the "shirt test" mentioned in prior posts under this topic is OK. :roll:

As long as the time commitment is reasonable, I would be willing to take this as a "to do" and keep everyone informed. 8)

Adam Grace
02-28-2005, 08:35 PM
Darian, the shirt test sounds much better than the panty hose test.

A standardized test would be great :!:

Darian
02-28-2005, 10:09 PM
Adam, Adam, Adam,..... You're approaching this thing all wrong.... :? I know this brown haired, blue eyed, female warden that'll..... Oh,.... nevermind :P :P (I think she wears pantyhose.... :?: :wink: :wink: )

Adam Grace
02-28-2005, 11:34 PM
Darian, in that case lets make it a pantie test :!: :lol:

MSP
03-01-2005, 07:04 PM
My opinion is that until they start making all hooks barbless any attempt to smash the barbs should be adaquate. It's not our fault we can't get the hooks we use barblesss, let alone any flys someone buys from a shop. I have yet to meet a flyfisher that wants to harm a fish they are going to release. I think if you tried to smash a barb and the officer doesn't think it is sufficient than they should smash it for you and all the flys in your box. Salmon and Steelhead hooks are impossible to smash and they aren't much fun to file down. How hard is it to make all hooks barbless? Heck, I think they would be easier to make and should be less expensive! OK I'm done.

DonCooksey
03-01-2005, 08:37 PM
Mike:

Amen! It should be sufficient to have obviously tried to smash down the barb. The point is that you are intending to release fish without harming them - not whether there might be some remnant of the barb left because of the unfortunate way that most hooks are manufactured. Unless I am shopping for hooks in the wrong places, most of the styles I tie with are not available as barbless, so smashing with pliers seems like the only broadly-applicable solution. If a specific test is needed, I could suggest some very sensitive tests involving the tongue, lips, or other body parts. That would be the game warden's parts - not the fly fisher's!

MSP
03-01-2005, 09:01 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Excellent idea Don! Do ya think they will go for it? :wink:

Darian
03-01-2005, 10:11 PM
OK guys,..... I can appreciate the humor. :D It doesn't address the question, tho. :roll:

The problem with having made an effort to smash down the barb is that not everyone tries the same to accomplish that. The Regs require that the barb be filed off or closed completely. DFG interprets that to mean that there is no remnant of the barb to snag on a fishes flesh (no matter how small). They apply that standard to filed down barbs as well. 8)

As far as intent to crush the barb and/or release being considered, no amount of good intentions are going to impress a warden who's bent on issuing a citation to the person caught.... Obviously, some wardens will be reasonable and others will not. Would we like to expose ourselves to the risk of a citation (fines, etc.) :?: :shock:

Having said that, I agree with the comment that crimping the barbs on all my flies is not a fun thing to do and may not even be possible on some hooks. Not a pleasant prospect. :( Further, it doesn't look like any hook mfgr is going to start producing all or a large part of their hooks barbless. :(

Let's all agree that the wardens don't make the laws and negative comments about the wardens serves no purpose. 8) 8) They do enforce the law.

Currently, there is no uniform test or procedure to establish whether a hook is barbless. A DFG warden may use the shirt test or run a fingernail or thumbnail to test for the snag (or anything else that a warden can imagine to use as a test). It's a judgement call for each individual warden.....

So far, DFG is open for suggestions for a real test. If there's any interest in making one, now is the time.....

MSP
03-01-2005, 11:02 PM
I use a pair of needle nose pliers on every hook that goes into my vise. On larger hooks I rotate the hook in the pliers to ensure the barb is not exposed. Even then when I try the so called test they are using, the fly doesn't always back right out of my shirt material. A visual test is all it should take to determine if a barb has been crimped or not. Personally I have not encountered any DFG officers that are trying to write tickets for any reason they can. All have been courteous and lenient. As far as I'm concerned I love to see them out in the field. But if I do encounter one that would write me a $800.00 ticket for my barbs not being smashed I think my tune would change. I only speak from what I have read on other boards about the the fines. Maybe they were fishing with barbs who knows. DFG in my mind does the best job they can with the resources they have.

Fishing has been great, Life is Good! Someone in this state is doing something right.

Test? Shouldn't need one. If it's the shirt test, so be it.

Darian you hit the nail on the head. Until the hook manufactures provide us with the barbless hooks, the state should change the way the law is written or be more lenient. I just have a feeling there are worse things taking place on our rivers than fishing with a barb that is not crimped all the way. These are my opinions and are not endorsed by anyone but me! Everyone has to have an opinion on something.

Adam Grace
03-01-2005, 11:26 PM
I agree with MSP.

I too like to see Rangers out doing thier jobs. There are too many people out there snagging or illegally taking fish. But I do think that if the barb looks to be crushed as close as possible the Rangers should be more lenient.

I have no idea what test would be the best. It would be nice to know that there is only one test. I think any debarbed hook will stick into pantie hose. I have never tested hooks through pantie hose but I beleive that almost anything could catch in that fine mesh.

Hairstacker
03-01-2005, 11:44 PM
Yep, I'm in full agreement with Don and Mike: The test should be a visual one -- if the barb looks crimped, that should be good enough. Otherwise, what's the alternative besides buying barbless hooks? Hone all the barbs down with a Dremel tool? That seems a little extreme to me. But if you buy all your flies, maybe that's the only real alternative. . . . :(

Adam Grace
03-01-2005, 11:52 PM
A Visual test sounds great.

Nicely put Hair :!: