Trying to understand weighted eyes for saltwater shrimp flies

[rcj]

I have tied a bunch of flies for bonefish trips in the past. Gotchas, Mantis shrimps, Spawning shrimps, etc. One thing that I have never understood is the use of bead chain eyes or dumbbell eyes as the weight for the flies. The bead chain or dumbbell is positioned near the eye of the hook for these flies, like when tying a Clouser, but shrimp do not have eyes in that location. The artificial shrimp eyes are tied in near the bend of the hook, where the eyes would naturally be. Why do we tie in weighted eyes up by the hook eye where shrimp do not have their eyes? It does not seem natural. I have been thinking about just using lead wraps as weight for some mantis shrimp flies that I will use for deeper water. Tying in bead chain eyes for flies in skinnier water may make sense as it flips the hook point up. Maybe that creates less snags, but it seems like an inelegant way to do it. Just wanted to share my thoughts and see if anyone had some thoughts as well. Thanks.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Living on the coast of Florida the local serious fly fishers who tie flies are getting more sophisticated all the time.

"Matching the Hatch" has worked its way into the inshore fly fishing of Florida.

There are lots of people who are very serious fly fishers who fish year round down there.

The flies today match the shrimp, crabs, and dozens of baitfish on our coasts.

50 years ago you could put some giant crude fly on with almost no movement (no marabou/rabbit fur/soft synthetic) and catch fish.

Today Florida's inshore flies are smaller and look alive in the water.

Now the flies have to look like the naturals and sink like the naturals and be moved like the naturals.


Conventional anglers who fish artificials are getting really sophisticated today too.

[Darian]

My perspective on weighting Shrimp patterns is that using bead chain eyes or lead, dumbbell eyes affects the angle and rate of sink. For example: placing the eyes at the eye of the hook and tying the rest of the fly reversed allows the hook to ride point up fly to sink eye first, the way a Shrimp might. Of course, if eyes are to be added monofilament eyes could be added at the bend of the hook. I believe eyes added in this manner/position, tend to sink in to the sand or other bottom materials and maybe disappear from view. This only one variation used in weighting Shrimp patterns.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

In Florida, we have many sophisticated anglers fishing light to medium spinning tackle with the latest plastic shrimp imitations.

They are put on a lead jig head of different sizes/weights and colors.

The plastic Vodoo, Savage, DOA and Thumper shrimp are cutting edge now.




"Many cast them out, let them sink to the bottom, then hop them up and let them fall to the bottom."

This method is my main reason for this reply/post.





*90% of the average anglers use live shrimp in an aerated 5 gallon bucket for bait which is very effective and popular.



** Shrimp, crabs and small baitfish are the main attractions for inshore fishing in the southern states.



***There are some really good saltwater fly tiers on the YouTube video channels.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Here are a bunch of shrimp tying tutorials - YouTube videos


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saltwater+fly+tiers+schrimp

[Woodman]

The Squimp pattern is an exception to the rule.

19371

[Darian]

In the example I posted, the fly can be "hopped" during the retrieve similar to how Bill describes how conventional anglers retrieve their lures.

BTW, as Woodman suggests, the "Squimp" is a very good pattern for Bones. Comes highly recommended.

[rcj]

Thanks everyone for your comments and guidance. I appreciate the link to the fly tying tutorials and also the mention of the “squimp” fly. I plan to go to Andros in a few months and will tie some “squimps” for the trip. Appreciate the advice.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Andros is famous for huge Bones. If you have a guide you will be fine.

Nor Cal fly fishing guide Fred Gordon fished there and said to land them over 10 pounds you need very little drag.

Andros was Lefty Kreh's favorite Bonefish destination.

Al Caucchi, Hatches, goes there every year for many weeks. February, March, April, May?

The Bahamas is the largest area of flats (shallow water) in the World.

I heard in mid-summer that the shallow flats get too hot for the fish.


Love to get a report.




Here is an old article I did for anyone going after Bonefish:

https://www.billkiene.com/fishing/fly-fishing-for-bonefish/

[DLJeff]

I think people often over analyze flies. Not saying that's wrong or bad, and if people like doing that than keep on doing it. But in the case of bonefish (as it is for most fish) presentation is responsible for 95% of the success rate. When bonefish are on the flats feeding, they will investigate anything that moves provided it doesn't spook them first. So getting your fly inside the fishes vision area without spooking the fish is your first priority. After that, your main goal is to watch the fish and react accordingly. If the fish picks up on your fly, don't move it and let the fish approach. If it hasn't picked up on your fly when you cast it, start a slow strip and watch the fish. If you pull the fly outside the fish's vision area, re-cast. If the fish begins to track your fly, stop. If it turns off, just bump the fly enough to the fish's attention. Again, to know when that happens, you have to watch the fish. Many guides will keep saying strip, strip as the fish follows your fly. The problem with this technique is often the fish will either get too close to you and spook, or it will give up and go looking for easier prey to catch. Bonefish don't race down their prey like a jack or cuda, they get close and then pounce on their prey, pinning it to the bottom, sucking it into their crushers. If you keep pulling the fly outside of that "attack zone" the bonefish will look elsewhere. Consider also that most bonefish prey aren't built to outrun a bonefish anyway. Their primary means of avoiding being eaten is to not be seen in the first place and to hide if they are seen. Shrimp, crabs, worms, they will all bury into the sand when threatened. So continuing to strip the fly is not typical prey response.

As for flies, you don't need a ton of different flies. There are a couple key things to address. First is weight. You will likely fish in several depths of water as the tides change. Therefore, you need flies with no weight, with light or medium weight, and a few flies with heavier lead barbell eyes. Personally for me, I prefer to go heavier rather than lighter because I want my fly to hug the bottom. I find bonefish rarely spook because of the splash of the fly hitting the water. The fly line makes a much bigger splash and noise. Often, the splash of the fly is what gets the bonefish to suddenly turn and look in the direction of my fly. Certainly, tailing fish in water so shallow their tails and dorsal fins stick out, I'll go with a lighter fly and longer leader. Second priority when it comes to bonefish flies is to match the bottom. 90% of the time, some light tan, sand color fly is going to work just fine. But sometimes you'll be over turtle grass or a rocky bottom with some soft corals and a slightly darker or greener color is better (the tan one will probably work just as well). Also, the bottom structure can cause weighted flies to quickly hang up or drag weeds, so a lighter fly that will skip over the top of the bottom helps avoid getting hung up - which by the way will usually spook the bonefish. Size is the third consideration. In the Bahamas, the typical flies are size 2 or 4, but I've gone as large as 1/0. Rarely do I use smaller sizes in the Bahamas. In Belize or Christmas Island though, the typical fly size is 6 or 8. Hawai'i they like large flies and the bottom is usually darker unless you're over on Kaneohe side. In Cuba is sort of middle ground, flies more in the 4 to 6 range seem to be preferred but I've had great bonefish days with standard Bahamas bonefish flies too. One last comment, keep the amount of flash to a minimum - one or two strands of krystal flash is plenty.

And my one final comment - as a good friend of mine who is an excellent bonefisher said one day when we were having this same sort of discussion "Stick a Gotcha in your pocket and go fishin'". That's been sound advice and I've remembered ever since.

[dynaflow]

Bill Kienes summary from 2015 sums it up pretty well.Thanks Bill.
Best Regards

[Woodman]

Many guides will keep saying strip, strip as the fish follows your fly. The problem with this technique is often the fish will either get too close to you and spook, or it will give up and go looking for easier prey to catch.

All of the information in your post was great, but I question this statement a little. For someone with a lot of bonefishing experience, not following your guide's instructions may be a good call. For many (most) of us, the guide probably 1) has a better handle on what will hook the fish and 2) can see what the fish is doing better than you.

[DLJeff]

All of the information in your post was great, but I question this statement a little. For someone with a lot of bonefishing experience, not following your guide's instructions may be a good call. For many (most) of us, the guide probably 1) has a better handle on what will hook the fish and 2) can see what the fish is doing better than you.

No argument, if one is new to any sort of fishing, it's probably best to listen to your guide. But be observant and watch the fish, watch what it does as you keep stripping. Often when people strip, they automatically pause between strips as they reposition their hand. That brief stop is often when the fish will pounce. And when you get a chance to try your own method try the way I described it above. I didn't develop that, some of the best bonefish guides in the Bahamas taught me and most of the people I've fished with over there. I promise you it works more often than continuous stripping.