Targeting spawning valley steelhead sitting on Redds

[E.Drucker]

Got your attention? good.

There are reports of some seasonal guides on the Yuba targeting spawning Steelhead sitting on Redds with their clients.

Please if anyone sees stuff like this going on, say something!

This behavior isn't acceptable for anyone, ESPECIALLY guides who certainly know better.

[Smitty Fish]

They should have their guide license taken away with a hefty fine. Idiots!

[PV_Premier]

Kinda dumb to do that when you can rope fish legitimately with half a bag of skills this time of year.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

You have to realize some of the leaser known fishing guides have big pickup and boast payments.

No fish, not returns and no tips.

That is why 90% of the fishing guides all have to use indicators.

[E.Drucker]

You have to realize some of the leaser known fishing guides have big pickup and boast payments.

No fish, not returns and no tips.

That is why 90% of the fishing guides all have to use indicators.


Well this guide in particular has a beat ass old pickup and sleeps in it camping on the Yuba, so that's not the problem here. I think the word we are looking for is MORALS...well, maybe ETHICS as well. No need to drag indicators into the discussion. They didn't do you dirty

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Without indicators we would have tons more anglers who are still fishing conventional.

Without indicators we would have very few fly fishing guides.......sorry.

There is an art to indicator fishing....true.


There are top guides who fish all methods......class acts.

They go to streamers or indicators when nothing is happening on top.


Without Spey casting we would not have very many folks fishing the "old way", the classic way, swinging flies.

Very few winter runs would be caught on flies with the indicator, today.

When indicators entered the scene I had to put some in my vest so I could see how they worked.


We have a population of fly fishers who have caught tons of trout and steelhead with guides in drift boats but have never cast

without an indicator on their line. This is the part I am not happy about. And most of these dudes think they are bad ass too?



I lived through or witnessed every historic thing that happened in fly fishing over the pact 60 plus years.

There are a handful of old timers here on this Forum who also learned to fly fish without indictors.....a long time ago.


I only speak facts.......even if it hurts.



Today I only fish a floating line, tapered leader and unweighted fly.....90%.

When I deviate from that I don't enjoy the casting.


When you help people every day of your adult life in a fishing tackle store you learn things that no one else will know.

[Carl Blackledge]

Bill,

I agree with everything you said-my 2 cents

Carl Blackledge

[Woodman]

Without indicators we would have tons more anglers who are still fishing conventional.

Without indicators we would have very few fly fishing guides.......sorry.

There is an art to indicator fishing....true.


There are top guides who fish all methods......class acts.

They go to streamers or indicators when nothing is happening on top.


Without Spey casting we would not have very many folks fishing the "old way", the classic way, swinging flies.

Very few winter runs would be caught on flies with the indicator, today.

When indicators entered the scene I had to put some in my vest so I could see how they worked.


We have a population of fly fishers who have caught tons of trout and steelhead with guides in drift boats but have never cast

without an indicator on their line. This is the part I am not happy about. And most of these dudes think they are bad ass too?



I lived through or witnessed every historic thing that happened in fly fishing over the pact 60 plus years.

There are a handful of old timers here on this Forum who also learned to fly fish without indictors.....a long time ago.


I only speak facts.......even if it hurts.



Today I only fish a floating line, tapered leader and unweighted fly.....90%.

When I deviate from that I don't enjoy the casting.


When you help people every day of your adult life in a fishing tackle store you learn things that no one else will know.

Nowhere is this more evident than the Lower Sac where it can take an hour waiting in line to launch a boat...

[WLREDBAND]

AHHHH yes, the time honored B&M about "bobbicators". No surprise there. The only surprise to me is this isn't under the steelhead forum where it usually occurs!! :p
Fish any way you'd like, as long as it legal. We're all brothers here (although sometimes you'd wonder!).

[E.Drucker]

THis doesnt need to be about bobbers guys. Lets just all agree targeting spawning steelhead/trout is no bueno and leave it at that. lol

[Carl Blackledge]

Wlredband,

I personally don't care how anybody else fishes, with a indicator or not just like you said, however if they fish or walk on the Redds I think they have just shown the World there true character and their piss poor ability to catch fish in the normal and accepted manner, If I seen them I would point and laugh at them as clowns.

my 2 cents

[Bob G]

Billy -

I have been around with you as my friend for the majority of your 60 year exposure to fly fishing. And I agree with everything that you have described regarding indicator fishing...absolutely everything!

Best, Bob

[Spicytuna1]

Guess it takes a different generation to take a different approach to Fly Fishing and acceptance of all other anglers in the sport sharing the same passion. Good for those that live that dream and do it for a living as long as they are ethical.

In my opinion I think the close minded stubbornness I and others have been witness to is fading out and the new open minded generation is coming in.

Now to see if we will ever be hypocritical to the the next few generations and what they bring to the sport as it evolves, doubtful but who knows?

Not saying I am perfect in any means, just hate seeing separation like this in an industry that should be for all without boundaries or labels.

Unethical practices however are not within us and our industry.

[E.Drucker]

Carl - amen. thank you for sticking to the point of this thread

[Carl Blackledge]

Sometimes it's nice to get it off your chest. lol
Carl

[grnwtrs]

Sometimes it's nice to get it off your chest. lol
Carl

3
ATTA BOYS" to you !!!!!!!!!!!!! For those comments. gene

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I just don't want true classic fly fishing to go away for the new commers with only a steady diet of indicator fishing.


When I started working in a large sporting goods store in the late 1960s there were actually very few nymphs to buy?

All we had were classic streamers, classic winged wet flies and dry flies.


We grew up learning to tie small flies and matching the hatch in the smooth surfaces with the help of wonderful people like Bob

Quigley and Andy Puyans. Today I don't think they sell "spinner" pattern in local fly shops. Bead head nymphs pay the rent.



People go annually to place in Idaho and Montana just to be able to wade and dry fly fish for wild trout.


Part of the problem in my lifetime is the fact that our fisheries are down about 90% over the past 50 years so fishing is tougher.

When I was a teenager almost everyone caught fish, even the "Clueless."


In the 1950s hunting and fishing in northern California was to die for.

The week before the opening day of pheasant season the sporting goods store I worked in had to hire about 6 more people just to sell

hunting licenses and tags. I wish my grandkids could have seen California back then.


There would be over 100 small boats trolling at the mouth of the American river and lots of salmon would be caught.

In the Spring time when the Striper spawning run was head up the Sacramento river thousands of boats where in the water daily from

San Francisco to almost Red Bluff. Most where using cut fresh Sardines for bait.


In the Fall there were trailer parks between Sacramento and Redding that were full of hunters and fishermen because the Salmon and

Steelhead fishing was so good. We had world class pheasant and duck hunting as well.


In South Sacramento we had a large group of guys in high school who fished, hunted and partied together.

Many of those old friends still hunt and fish in their 70s today. The are the true American Outdoorsman.


It was common to see guns in gun racks in the back windows of many pickup trucks.........even in our high school parking lot.

It was a really different world back then. Many of us hunted and/or fished before and/or after school.

When we go to rural South Dakota today we see rifles and shot guns in gun racks in pickup trucks.


Back then a friend of mine would take the Greyhound bus in the summer to Salinas where his aunt and uncle managed a large ranch.

He would get on the bus with his .270 scoped hunting rifle slung over his shoulder and a duffle bag.......not today folks.


Some of my good friends/customers moved away to rural America for the better fishing when they retired.


Here is Florida I don't think you could find any indicators to buy?

[E.Drucker]

I'd say this kind of pressure back in the "good old days" might be a part of the reason fishing is down 90% today? IDK, but over 100 small boats trolling for salmon and thousands of boats Striper fishing mayyyyybe have something to do with the these "problems in your lifetime".

Nostalgia sure is great, but here we are right?


"There would be over 100 small boats trolling at the mouth of the American river and lots of salmon would be caught.

In the Spring time when the Striper spawning run was head up the Sacramento river thousands of boats where in the water daily from

San Francisco to almost Red Bluff. Most where using cut fresh Sardines for bait.


In the Fall there were trailer parks between Sacramento and Redding that were full of hunters and fishermen because the Salmon and

Steelhead fishing was so good. We had world class pheasant and duck hunting as well"

[Mark Kranhold]

I’ve yelled many times at people fishing redds, while fishing or out for a bike ride, it really pisses my off! They just stand there starring at the redd waiting for that perfect opportunity. On the bobber note, might as well grab your spinning or center pin rod with your favorite bobber or float and start starring at that yarn ball waiting for it to go down. For many bobber fly guys it seems to be a numbers game. I’ll take one fish a year on the swing, nothing like that bone jarring grab! Just the joy of actually being on the water and casting a fly rod and swinging that fly cross current is just therapeutic.

[fivefingers]

Kinda dumb to do that when you can rope fish legitimately with half a bag of skills this time of year.

I want your bag of skills.

[PV_Premier]

I want your bag of skills.

Swing a sculpin, drift a skwala, alevins under a bobber in slower eddies/current seams are good…

Love warm Januarys on the Yuba, lots of options of things to do and try, often in short sleeves.

[Carl Blackledge]

Hey Tayler,

I think this post was mostly about standing on or fishing in the Redds, I don't think most people care what kind of rod you use or if you use bait or a bobber, at least I don't :)

Carl Blackledge

[Rossflyguy]

I fish a bobber with a fly rod and often a spinning rod too. Cast flies with a spey rod or a spoon with my bait caster. I dry fly fish and troll the ocean, and regularly fish with bait. Same nails, different hammer. I simply do not agree when people say “it’s not about catching fish”. If that was the case, there would be no guides, fly shops or the amazing gear that has been developed to catch fish. I am a fisherman. I enjoy catching fish. I use the appropriate method for the conditions at hand. I’m not going to frame a house with a finishing hammer…..

100% agreed. We are fisherman first before being labeled as a specific type of fisherman. I love dry fly fishing the yuba in Feb and March as long as trolling for land locked kings and big browns on big swim baits isn't red hot. As far as the people dredging redds at the yuba I guess the spawn is over at putah creek. There’s always gonna be those people. They all run out of their cars and grab a spot just above the bridge. Line up shoulder to shoulder. It’s sad.

[timmosazz]

I was one of those guys that fished before school and had a 22 rifle in the gun rack of my pickup at high school. The gun rack was the first thing I added to my truck when I got it. Bottom rack had a ruger 22 and top rack had some type of fishing rod at all times. Funny I was just telling some people how you used to be able to walk in a sporting goods store and buy a gun and walk out same day. They couldn’t believe it. Also the part about always having a rifle in the back window of my truck. It was a jaw dropper. I just said we were a lot more free and responsible back then. Then I dropped the bomb about how I used to ride my bike to thrifty drug store and get a ice cream cone and 500 rounds of 22 ammo when I was a kid. Defiantly a different world now.

[fivefingers]

Swing a sculpin, drift a skwala, alevins under a bobber in slower eddies/current seams are good…

Love warm Januarys on the Yuba, lots of options of things to do and try, often in short sleeves.

Oh. We're talking about the Yuba trout. Thought we were talking about going for winter steelhead. Ha!

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I was one of those guys that fished before school and had a 22 rifle in the gun rack of my pickup at high school. The gun rack was the first thing I added to my truck when I got it. Bottom rack had a ruger 22 and top rack had some type of fishing rod at all times. Funny I was just telling some people how you used to be able to walk in a sporting goods store and buy a gun and walk out same day. They couldn’t believe it. Also the part about always having a rifle in the back window of my truck. It was a jaw dropper. I just said we were a lot more free and responsible back then. Then I dropped the bomb about how I used to ride my bike to thrifty drug store and get a ice cream cone and 500 rounds of 22 ammo when I was a kid. Defiantly a different world now.


Yes Tim,

We were so dam lucky to be born when we were.

Funny though, we go to rural America and lots of it is the same there now as it was during our childhood except instead of bicycles the

kids ride ATVs from farm to farm and to go fishing and hunting. God bless America.......

[timmosazz]

Well, since we are talking Steelhead, I can't tell you about the lower Yuba river today, but I can let you know that myself and ten others had no luck on the lower American river today. No one I talked to today even had a grab.

[timmosazz]

Yes Tim,

We were so dam lucky to be born when we were.

Funny though, we go to rural America and lots of it is the same there now as it was during our childhood except instead of bicycles the

kids ride ATVs from farm to farm and to go fishing and hunting. God bless America.......

Lets hope it stays that way out in rural America and maybe it can creep back into the places it has been lost.

[Ralph]

Got your attention? good.

There are reports of some seasonal guides on the Yuba targeting spawning Steelhead sitting on Redds with their clients.

Please if anyone sees stuff like this going on, say something!

This behavior isn't acceptable for anyone, ESPECIALLY guides who certainly know better.


The thread started with this very concise and germane post. How in the world did this conversation get derailed into yet another redundant bobicater discussion? That should be a different thread. Or no thread at all.

[Rossflyguy]

Oh. We're talking about the Yuba trout. Thought we were talking about going for winter steelhead. Ha!

There’s steelhead in the lower Yuba river.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

That's exciting..........

[Jeff F]

The thread started with this very concise and germane post. How in the world did this conversation get derailed into yet another redundant bobicater discussion? That should be a different thread. Or no thread at all.

Agreed. Let's get to more pressing issues........pegged beads. :D

[E.Drucker]

The thread started with this very concise and germane post. How in the world did this conversation get derailed into yet another redundant bobicater discussion? That should be a different thread. Or no thread at all.

Thanks Ralph. Yeah, the moderator derailed it into a bobber convo. All I was trying to say was don't fish to spawning steelhead, and ESPECIALLY don't do with with clients if you are a guide!!

[PV_Premier]

Agreed. Let's get to more pressing issues........pegged beads. :D

what about pegged beads under a bobber with split shot :eek:

[Ralph]

what about pegged beads under a bobber with split shot :eek:

With Dr. Juice.

[Mark Kranhold]

With Dr. Juice.

I like Mike’s sardine oil better:p

[hwchubb]

Back to the post, I watched a guide fish to steelies on redds at the head of the island at Sailor Bar a few years back (Italian last name, but I don’t recall it). When I pointed it out to him, he explained that they were “targeting the alpha, or non-spawning, male” (there were 2 bucks and a hen). When I recounted it on another forum, it was suggested that the American was an “alpha-sustaining system”, and he was an official alpha sustaining system guide, or an ASS guide. Which led to suggestions that he could have Official ASS hats, and similar fun.

But yeah, fishing redds is a problem on almost any river. I’ve seen Little Truckee guides posting pics of big browns with freshly torn tails, and heard about the same in CO and MT. It’s constant on the American and, apparently, the Yuba. Worse when guides do it, because that makes it okay in their client’s eyes. And worse, it’s mostly fly fishermen from what I’ve seen. I’ve called it to their attention in the past, both angrily and in a friendly way, and it’s received about the same way every time. I don’t know the answer - there are fly fishing classes, fly tying classes, casting classes, but I’ve never seen a fishing etiquette class. Unless you are one of us that had mentors who taught us etiquette, it may be a lost cause. Like many other parts of society today.

[Mark Kranhold]

I know who you are talking about

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

If you never offend anyone you are not living right.


When I had the fly shop I had to keep my opinions to myself because many would boycott you for almost any reason.


I thank God for onset of Spey casting in the North West of America.

It took a huge bite out the indicator Steelhead community.


I would guess in the winter the indicator anglers catch 10 to 1 over classic fly fishers swinging flies?

Fall fishing would be a little more even.


60 years ago I would out fish most other anglers on the lower American river in the Fall using night crawlers for Steelhead.

I made my own custom spinning rods on fly rod blanks with the help of Edwolt's Rod and Reel Repair's nice staff.



Over my long career in the fishing business I met very few people who actually started out fishing with a flies.

One of my dearest old buddies, Tom Moore, grew up fly fishing with his dad who belonged to an old fly fishing club on a trout stream.

Some people do not start fly fishing until they get retired......

[E.Drucker]

Back to the post, I watched a guide fish to steelies on redds at the head of the island at Sailor Bar a few years back (Italian last name, but I don’t recall it). When I pointed it out to him, he explained that they were “targeting the alpha, or non-spawning, male” (there were 2 bucks and a hen). When I recounted it on another forum, it was suggested that the American was an “alpha-sustaining system”, and he was an official alpha sustaining system guide, or an ASS guide. Which led to suggestions that he could have Official ASS hats, and similar fun.

But yeah, fishing redds is a problem on almost any river. I’ve seen Little Truckee guides posting pics of big browns with freshly torn tails, and heard about the same in CO and MT. It’s constant on the American and, apparently, the Yuba. Worse when guides do it, because that makes it okay in their client’s eyes. And worse, it’s mostly fly fishermen from what I’ve seen. I’ve called it to their attention in the past, both angrily and in a friendly way, and it’s received about the same way every time. I don’t know the answer - there are fly fishing classes, fly tying classes, casting classes, but I’ve never seen a fishing etiquette class. Unless you are one of us that had mentors who taught us etiquette, it may be a lost cause. Like many other parts of society today.



Absolutely nail it.