What is fly fishing to you?

[Charlie Gonzales]

I have been watching a local youtuber that strictly euro nymphs. He has about a 9 foot leader out his rod tip and straight mono all the way to his reel; the fly line never comes off the real. This technique could easily be accomplished on a spinning outfit.

To me, fly fishing is utilizing a fly line to create energy in a rod to present a fly or flies.

What is your definition?

Not hating on anyone or bashing, just curious.....

[Mark Kranhold]

I feel the same Charlie! It’s so enjoyable to cast, feel the load and watch a nice loop come off the rod tip and get that fly in the right zone, right behind that rock, or on the edge of that seam, being on a dry or a swung fly. I believe most hardcore euro nymphers don’t even use fly line, I’ve seen just mono spooled up on their fly reels.

Flyfishing has slowly morphed in with conventional over the years, that being said, the plastic bobbers to tying materials. Rubber this , plastic that, it’s not just furs and feathers anymore. I guess it’s a numbers game to a lot of people, that’s where the indo rigs and euro nymphing come into play and like you said could be done with a spinning outfit.

Bobbers are way to much work stack mending and stack mending until your arm falls off or get tennis elbow, not to enjoyable and relaxing. To me being on the water making a great cast, listening to the water, birds, dissecting a run, getting away from people is what I enjoy about flyfishing, it feeds the soul...oh and an occasional fish would be nice too!

[tcorfey]

I am with you Charlie and Mark. To me fly fishing means using the weight of the fly line to deliver/present your fly.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

This is my perfect opportunity to piss off thousands.....yahoo.

I will use senility as my excuse.

Well, as soon as you are not casting and forming a loop you are no long fly fishing.

I think we need other categories? new names for these non-fly fishing techniques.

I sold fly fishing equipment for over 50 years so I saw everything that came and went all those years.

___________________________________

Here is what made me very sad.......

I would get this person in who wants to catch half-pounders down on the American.

I tell them they need a light rod, floating line, 9' leader to 3x and a #12 nymph of your choice.

Then comes the sad question, "Where do I put my indicator?"

I say, "Leave it in your pocket."

_____________________________________

You can blame all this on the "fly fishing" guides.......

Without an indicator they could never get enough action to have repeat customers or get a big tip.

Sorry, this is the sad facts..............not up for discussion.

___________________________________

I have customers who only fish from a drift boat with a top guides with indicators on the Trinity, Sacramento and Yuba rivers.

Hundreds of these guys have never fished an hour anywhere without a guide and indicator?

You take a top Trinity river indicator Steelhead guide and two of his well trained best customers and they can catch more fish in a day

than a classic fly fisher will catch in a year. I guess it is all about numbers? And these guys think they are "bad ass"?

______________________________

While most are promoting the indicator method as the "go to deal" I am still trying to promote classic fly fishing.....

For the past decades for all species all over the world I only fish a floating line, leader and hand tied fly.

This is Peacock Bass, Dorado, Roosterfish, Tarpon, Snook, trout, Steelhead. bass, panfish, etc ......everything.

If I can not cast I don't want to do it.........



Rather than get mad a me why don't you rethink your own idea of fly fishing?

.

[Darian]

This subject comes up periodically and tho it never seems to be resolved, its always interesting. To me, fly fishing is using a fly to catch fish or frogs, etc. Fly casting involves using a fly line to cast a fly. In my coastal ventures during winter I've used a fly rod/reel and running line with a pencil sinker, swivel, leader and hook to strip cast egg clusters during periods of off-color water. That didn't even seem like casting a fly. Personally, since I no longer fish for Salmon/Steelhead, I don't worry much about what kind of outfit anyone wants to use (even tho I choose to fish with a fly).

[Jcolin]

For me all fishing is done with a fly reel and rod. Personally wouldn't like just having mono on my reel, but definitely not because of purist reasons.

For bass fishing I love poppers on floating lines, but also fish subsurface with sinking lines when they won't hit topwater. I know the float n fly is a great for folks, but I've also had great luck fishing soft plastics on my fly rod with sinking lines, compared to Clousers etc, at least for largemouth.

Is it fly fishing? Probably not, and I really don't care. Not sure why it matters? When it comes to ethics and harming fish, of course I care, but other than that, really don't care what people think. I fish with a fly rod and reel as its what my dad taught me and don't even know how to fish with a spinning rod if I wanted to. I mean no disrespect, but really could not care less whether I'm a “real” fly fisherman or not when I'm bobber nymphing or swinging flies with sinking tips rather than floating lines etc. I believe when folks began nymphing early on some dry fly purists claimed it wasn't “real fly fishing”?

The irony is that the earliest patterns from what I understand were wet flies that were fished subsurface, probably on the swing!

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Actually, Spey casting has brought back many to swinging flies for Steelhead.

I am not against indicator fishing, I just don't like that it has taken over as the norm?

[tcorfey]

I agree Bill, I have nothing against euro-nymphing or using bobbers, it is an effective way to catch fish if that is all you are doing it for.

I know this won't sit well with some people but, in my opinion if you are using so much split shot or a split shot and bobber rig so that what you are casting weighs more than your fly line then you have defeated the reason to use a fly rod. In reality using a fly rod is just not the most efficient way to fish those rigs.

If you used a long ultra-light spinning rod like the Okumo Celilo rod in 9'6" with 4 or 6 lb test and an ultralight spinning reel it would give you the ability to cast with minimum room, it would be more accurate, it gives you a better drift (you can hold light mono off the water easily), you have a good drag mechanism and you have no extra line to step on or get tangled in, etc... I have setup spin fisherman with nymph and bobber rigs before and it works great for that technique. Others should try it, I mean if you fish that way to increase your fish count then who cares which rod you use, you may as well use the more efficient/effective tool. For around $150.00. you can get a good rod, reel and line setup then use your existing flys etc... If you use a fly rod for those techniques just because you think it's cool or you just prefer it than that's fine too, whatever floats your boat but, I think there is a better way to do it.

Disclaimer: I hope my short rant helps someone and it doesn't just make people angry it's just the way I see it. Your opinion may differ.

[Larry S]

Ok folks; how about Tenkara? Is this fly fishing?
Asking for a friend.......
Best to all,

Larry S
Sun Diego

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Up in Dunsmuir old Bob Patterson used a fly rod, fly reel, floating line, short leader and a small egg hook to fish the pocket water with salmon eggs. I think this is a common practice.......

In British Columbia around Victoria they use a fly rod, fly reel, floating line and bucktail streamers to troll behind outboard skiffs for Silver salmon or Cochos.

__________________________________________

In Florida I don't have any sinking lines....I just fly fish with floating line for everything.

In 30 years of flats fishing I never used anything but a floating line.

[Jcolin]

Ok folks; how about Tenkara? Is this fly fishing?
Asking for a friend.......
Best to all,

Larry S
Sun Diego
A big part of what i love about flyfishing has so much to do with the reel, big fish peeling line, clickers screaming etc...so ive never gotten into it despite doing a lot of backpacking in the summer. I guess they developed it in Japan separately to western flyfishing? Pretty cool that two very distant cultures came to similar forms of fishing from observing fish feeding on insects, unless one was influenced by the other.
Really good thread, i do want to add in case my post came off as dismissive or rude, that I very much have a lot of respect for the tradition of the sport especially with SH fishing, and those that have been doing it longer than ive been alive.

[DLJeff]

In my opinion it comes down to using the right / best tool for the job. Fishermen wanted to present insect imitations to finicky fish. They couldn't cast the light weight lure so they invented the fly line and fly rod. The line provides the necessary weight to cast the fly, and the rod provides the lever arm and momentum to move the line in the preferred direction, typically at a very specific target. Coincidentally the fly rod also helped protect the light weight tippet required to fool the fish into eating the lure.

A fly rod is not made for lifting heavy fish from deep water - a short, stiff boat or trolling rod is much more efficient tool for that. Can you do it with a fly rod? Sure, but it's not the best way, either for the fisherman or the fish. A fly rod and fly casting is a much less efficient way to cover large expanses of water compared to a spinning rod, especially if you are fishing below the surface. And the deeper you are fishing the wider this gap becomes. While it certainly is possible and entertaining to surf fish with a fly rod, it is not the most efficient and simplest way to surf fish.

A fly rod is made for casting, not trolling, there are better tools for that. So while a person might catch a sailfish trolling behind a boat using a fly rod, it technically is not fly fishing in my opinion because no casting was done. If they have fun doing that I'm happy for them. But unless they went out and found sails basking on the surface or slashing a baitball, snuck up on the fish and actually cast a fly - it wasn't fly fishing.

Same goes for using a sinking line and a jig fly, letting it sink 30 feet down in a lake and jigging it up and down for crappie. You might do that with a fly rod, but it is not fly fishing. Using the light weight flexible rod might be fun, emphasizing the fish's power, and if people enjoy that I'm happy for them. But it isn't fly fishing.

[Mark Kranhold]

What a great post of a great topic Charlie! I have a friend that builds fly rod blanks with spinning reel reel seats on them. He enjoys the fight of the fish better on a light fly rod blank over a traditional spinning rod blank. Maybe these should be marketed for the bobber and untraditional fly rod fisherman? I know a lot of center pin fisherman are using long light spey rod blanks for their pinner builds. Maybe eagleclaw needs to market those spinning/fly rod combo kits again.��

[BobVP]

What a great question.

It took me a few decades to figure out that while I may have been "fly fishing" for a long time I had never really been "fly casting" with any real understanding of that part of the sport. So I have, in my head, split the one sport into two...then put them back, over the past 16-18 years, into one and with that I cannot agree more with what Bill wrote above.

For me fly fishing is a myriad of things beyond the fly, fly rod, line, leader (sans indicator), the cast and the innumerable leaves, branches, rocks and the (just once) flying rodent that gets the fly before it hits the water. I need to put myself into a place where wild fish live to feel like I am fly fishing these days. While I have "fished" using a fly rod for a few other fish over the years (rock fish, albacore...) that was not flyfishing, that was fishing using a rod built to cast....not much casting involved. I no longer do that. When I want "meat" I use the path that is easiest.

The cast, be it short or stretching my abilities at distance or even the "Fall River Twitch, becomes an important part of fooling a fish as does choosing the fly, leader and approach. Having had some great instruction (later in life) about the casting changed the feeling for what constituted the entire sport and I am grateful for the change.

Is Tenkara fly fishing...someone asked. Hmm, they use flies but there is no casting. Euro nymphing using all mono line? Again, flies are used for "bait". My feeling is call what you do exactly what you want to call it. I will not say, "That is not fly fishing", but it is not what I do to fly fish.

Add some split shot? Gosh, I am guilty of that as I love to catch those beautiful McCloud trout and they seem to live Under the rocks! So, yes I add split shot there but not so much it interferes with the cast.

Fly fishing to me is the "whole enchilada" of being there (where the fish are...or seem like they should be!); Planning to be there; Tying; Prepping (Change those old leaders); The drive; The walk; The waders...the leaks!; The osprey, bear, otter, beaver, other humans, the presentation, the take, the loss!, the hand net and release.

Difficult to explain...even fifty eight years after that first cast.

As Bill wrote: "This is my perfect opportunity to piss off thousands.....yahoo."

[Woodman]

Based on a lot of the responses, it seems like Kiene's and other places that sell Euro nymph rods, bobbers and tenkara rods should be called a tackle shop rather than a Fly Shop...

[TahoeJoe]

Tight Loop, thin leader
Small drift behind the boulder
Silvery fish takes

[John Sv]

Fly fishing, the cast
waiving through the morning mist
but I gear fish too

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Based on a lot of the responses, it seems like Kiene's and other places that sell Euro nymph rods, bobbers and tenkara rods should be called a tackle shop rather than a Fly Shop...

Your right.......we are whores too. When I owned my "fly shop" I had to be very "politically correct".......now I don't.

I guess these drift boat guide who fish 90% with indicators should be call just "fishing guides".....?

There are guides who never use indicators.....but people seek them out. David Armocido only guided with dry flies in Nor Cal.


I don't make a dime out of this any more, in fact I pay all the expenses for this Forum myself.

[DLJeff]

How's that sense of unburdened freedom feel, Bill?

[tcorfey]

Your right.......we are whores too. When I owned my "fly shop" I had to be very "politically correct".......now I don't.

I guess these drift boat guide who fish 90% with indicators should be call just "fishing guides".....?

There are guides who never use indicators.....but people seek them out. David Armocido only guided with dry flies in Nor Cal.


I don't make a dime out of this any more, in fact I pay all the expenses for this Forum myself.

Thank you Bill! Your site is a great resource and you are a real treasure to have for us in California!

[Larry S]

BobVP;
Regarding your comment "Is Tenkara fly fishing...someone asked. Hmm, they use flies but there is no casting,"
I humbly and respectively must disagree. From rod tip to the fly might be 25 feet or so of line and leader.
I am a rank amateur at this, most of my efforts have been in my nephew's swimming pool; but, the cast needs to
be "spot on!"

Best to you,
Larry S
Sun Diego

[John H]

Interesting topic. Here is my thought -

Fly fishing has evolved in the last 40 years and we have clearly gotten to the point where there is fly fishing and there is fly rod fishing. Where the line is between the two is debatable but I do not care where that line is. The only line I care about is the line between fishing I want to do and fishing I don’t want to do. I could spend some some time describing where that line is but it is constantly changing and it is my personal choice. I would say fish however you want to, don’t worry about what someone else calls it and let others do the same.

[BobVP]

BobVP;
Regarding your comment "Is Tenkara fly fishing...someone asked. Hmm, they use flies but there is no casting,"
I humbly and respectively must disagree. From rod tip to the fly might be 25 feet or so of line and leader.
I am a rank amateur at this, most of my efforts have been in my nephew's swimming pool; but, the cast needs to
be "spot on!"

Best to you,
Larry S
Sun Diego

I stand corrected Larry. Thank you.

[Zepher]

Mindlessly stripping in a streamer and having the line ripped from my fingers. Sudden elation

[Lucas Dement]

To me fly fishing is fishing using a fly rod. At the end of the day, Im just trying to enjoy myself on the water, and whether I am euro bro nymphing or swinging a giant orange and white intruder; Im fishing for my own enjoyment, not to meet someone elses expectations. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions of what fly fishing is, and that is the beauty of it.

[Ed Wahl]

Wow Charlie, what a thread.

My answer to your question... it's fishing. Just that. I don't go fly-fishing on a weekend, I go fishing.

Hmm, that doesn't seem to cut it.

Let me try again.

Fly fishing, the long rod, the line, the leader, the fly. The cast. The drift.

The things that can go wrong on the drift.

The sight of a fish rising to a dry fly.

The explosion of a LMB on a bug.

The unexpected hard pull of a striper.

The electric jolt of a shad.

These are things that I just could not experience fishing any other way.

A carp sucking in my fly while mudding, I mean, it could just go on and on.

This style of fishing that we all have come to love is just that. A style of fishing. All the variants are ok for whomever wants to follow

them, but I'll do what I do thank you very much.

And you do what you do, and I'll take notes, because that's what I do.
Ed

[Bob Loblaw]

If catching fish is your goal toss some dynamite into a deep hole where the hatchery truck has just been. You'll be sure to get a lot of fish that way.

If fooling a clever wild fish into eating something it shouldn't ordinarily eat is your goal, then get a fly rod and fish traditional techniques. Euro nymphing is somewhere in between. Sure its more effective than fishing a dry dropper but its nowhere near as satisfying. I'll take fewer but more enjoyable hookups any day.

[lee s.]

Well,
I must confess to getting the same satisfaction from working WELL, a Zara Spook, as I get from forming a great loop with my fly rod.
I guess I am a fisherman that loves to use fly gear, almost exclusively, and the puzzlement of figuring out how to make it work....even if the crappie or albies are 30' deep. Granted, it is harder to form a loop with a #8 beadhead white woolybugger on a 20' leader than a 4" deceiver on 30' of LC. Thanks Bill....I'm flyfishing ;-) And sorry Ryan, we still find crappies need "stationary" only about 10% of the time, so we DO use a bobber very seldom. Solving the puzzle seems a big part of fishing satisfaction, doing it ourselves, or watching others trying. Sometimes we are content just watching others catching, especially if they are new to the game.
....lee s.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Today, I mostly fish from a boat with an old friend......getting out on the water where it is most of the time in a beautiful area.

We can reminisce all day long about our wonderful experiences while fishing.


I enjoy eating a peanut butter & jelly sandwich too.

Seeing the wild life sneaking around in their quest for food and to evade being eaten is exciting.

Taking off my hat on a warm day just when we fire up the outboard to run to another area.......cooling.

I really enjoy casting a full length weight forward floating line with a fairly light weight fly too.


I am also taking out 'new to the sport' folks all the time. I really enjoy this too.

17113

The Magic Hour.......

[gitt]

Just spent a good part of last week working on the Heritage Trout Challenge with the emphasis on “challenge”. I initially scoffed at my partner suggesting we fish a 2-foot leader on a drainage in the Warner Mountains that was at best the same width as my leader. Add wind and chokes of willow along the creek and it became a real challenge to drop my fly in the narrow creek. Went up to a 4-foot leader on a wider stream in Del Norte County prior to shortening the leader and only hooked up on low-hanging big leaf maple before my first coastal cutt came to hand. After landing my first fish, there were plenty of grabs to encounter with no reward. Even with small fish, check your fly. Mine was missing everything behind the bend. A Tenkara would have proved handy over my 3 wt. Have to admit, this is not my usual game.

Open rivers fishing nine-foot-plus leaders is my preferred system. Tight loops and a double haul were of no use for this type of fishing. Fishing deadfalls, shallow drop-offs, and excellent cover under a closed canopy really put my collective experience to the test. Most of my casts were sidearm, cross the body and backhand with a foot or two of fly line past the tip-top just to hit my target and get a short drift past protective lies. If this wasn’t fly fishing, pass me an ultra-light spin outfit and put me out of my misery. I am reminded that there is more than one way to get to Chicago. The same goes with this activity.

[Mr T]

Interesting topic. Here is my thought -

Fly fishing has evolved in the last 40 years and we have clearly gotten to the point where there is fly fishing and there is fly rod fishing. Where the line is between the two is debatable but I do not care where that line is. The only line I care about is the line between fishing I want to do and fishing I don’t want to do. I could spend some some time describing where that line is but it is constantly changing and it is my personal choice. I would say fish however you want to, don’t worry about what someone else calls it and let others do the same.


100% agree.