Scandi/versileader question

[Jcolin]

I've only used Skagit heads and sink tips for winter steelhead, for the Klamath this fall I got an Airflo Rage head for mostly dry and barely subsurface fishing...I've never used Versileaders before, and ordered some the other day...the ones I got were by Rio, said freshwater Versileader but had a picture of a Steelhead on the cover. They are 7’ long, 12 lb test, in 1.5 and 3 ips sink rates. However, I also saw this morning that Rio made 10’ Scandi Spey Versileaders that are like 75 grains at 10’. I'm wondering if the ones I got will work OK? Also, for fishing skaters I was just going to build my own tapered leaders if that's cool? Any help is greatly appreciated, I'm use to dredging the bottom in the winter so this stuff is all new to me.Thanks

[richr]

The ones that you bought were designed to be used on the end of a standard single hand trout line to make a sink tip. The Spey Versileader have a stronger 24 pound core and we’re designed to be used with the various Scandi heads. Your Rage head is a Compact Skagit with a built in floating tip. It was designed by Tom Larimer to be used as a “Scandi” but still feel & cast like a Skagit so people didn’t have to change their casting techniques.

I would exchange the 12 pound test trout for the 24 pound test Spey Versileaders. The heavier cores will give you better turnover in the wind and when using foam body skaters.

https://www.rioproducts.com/products/spey-versileaders

[Jcolin]

Hey Richr thanks very much for confirming my mistake...I was fooled by the picture of the steelhead�� will exchange them for the 24 lb core versileaders

[Brian Clemens]

Rio makes 2 types of Versileaders for us swing guys. I personally use both types depending on the head and weight rod. I use them 75% of the time unless I really need to get down, then I'll bust out the T11,14 Both cast great and work well.

1) Spey Versileaders 24lb 6ft or 10ft I use the 10ft
75grains come in float, 1.5ips, 3,4,5,7
I use the 10ft, fish them on every 2 handed rod I own. Perfect on Scandi body, skagit and can be casted in Scandis with a good caster.

2) Scandi Versileaders 10ft only
35grain comes in float, 1.5 ips, 3,5
I fish these on my trout speys with skagits or scandi body heads. Cast great on any Scandi from Rio and also the new Spey Lites from SA.

Both versatile sink tips in any swingers tip bag. I typically use the Spey Versileaders in place of T8.

Hope this helps

[JasonB]

This is a tad confusing, as the specs you are describing sound more like the trout leaders as richr is describing, but they are usually packaged with a brown trout on the package? I would agree that those probably wouldn’t be the best match for your Rage head. What grain is that Rage anyway?
The ones I’ve seen with a steelhead on the package are the ones that Brian is describing, and I concur completely about all of them working well depending on which line you are matching it up with. They both have their places, and I’ve even used the trout ones a few times on light weight Scandi heads.

I have to say though, if you are talking about fishing in early fall on the Klamath, I would recommend just fishing a straight floating line with a mono leader (doesn’t even need to be anything too fancy, though I do like to start with a good long section of heavier mono to aid with turn over if it’s windy)... I don’t think you’ll need the tips at all personally. It took me a while to wrap my head around it, but summer/fall steelhead are super willing to move to the surface to grab a fly; it’s a big part of what makes that time such a special treat! Some will no doubt point out that there are runs, or pools where a sinking tip will get you more grabs...or that during the middle of the day it’s much harder to get a fish to take a surface or “damp” fly presentation...all true, but there are also plenty of opportunities to fish a floating line with just a mono leader and do very well! When I’m fishing up there in the fall I stick to a full floater about 99% of the time; if I don’t get a grab in a fishy looking riffle that time of year I will usually just go find another riffle, or perhaps make a few more casts with a smaller fly.
JB

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I had a 12'6" #6 Spey rod with some kind of a Scandi head.

Doug Duncan recommended the Airflo Rage head for me because I am an intermediate Spey caster at best.

The Rage head change my Spey casting a ton.....I love it.

I am going to say that the Rage head is somewhere between a Skagit and a Scandi.

The next problem is getting the right weight Rage for your two handed rod.

[Jcolin]

Thanks guys, Brian ill check out both the scandi and spey versileaders by rio. Jasonb, yeah it was confusing, because i had used the ones with the brown trout on the cover for stripping streamers for trout on my single hand rods, thought i was good to go with the big steelhead pic but i’m guessing its for swinging for SH with a single hand rod maybe? I hear you on the floating line for summer runs, its so ingrained in me to try to get deep for winter fish but its a whole different thing. Last fall hooked a lot of fish with my commando head and tips, but didnt get to skate dries at all and was a bit overgunned with my 12’6 6 weight with the exception of a few nicer adults. My airflo head is 330 grains, will be using it in on an old sage 5120 brownie i found used online. Even treated myself to a new hardy salmon #1 reel to pair it with, looking forward to fishing this combo as ive always used cheaper stuff being young and poor. Thanks again guys for the help

[JasonB]

Good luck up there. In terms of surface vs tips, do keep in mind that there is still a big difference in terms of a skated fly vs a wet fly just an inch or two under the surface. Lots of fish that won’t quite commit to attacking a skated fly will still hit a wet fly, but I’ve also seen the opposite in some situations where a skated fly will get the attention of some fish that a small wet fly doesn’t seem to interest. Best bet is to fish both options a lot!

Your set up should work well, just toy around a bit on leader length and stiffness to find what you like best. I’d guess you could start pretty thick with a 390 Rage, if you have leader making options.
Cheers,
JB

[TahoeJoe]

You've got lots of good info on versileaders. You just have to experiment but I think with a 330 gr head, the lighter leaders will probably perform fine with a classic summer steelhead type fly. I use both the Airflo 5' and 10' trout on a 260-280 gr scandi head and those leaders should be close to the light Rio versileader.

I just use a mono leader most of the time in the fall. I like to tie a 12' tapered leader down to about 3x and then put lighter tippet on it as required. Steelhead don't often seem to be very leader shy and usually 3x is good enough. That said, a Versileader or polyleader will give you a bit more stick in your anchor for touch and go style casts. If you're new to single spey and snake rolls, or if you're using a snap T, it may help to start with some sort of poly coated leader.

Joe

[Jcolin]

Great thanks Tahoe Joe. I am new to snake rolls and single speys, really only do snap ts and double speys for my winter fishIng, so expecting to have some trouble getting the hang of it. Will be practicing here on the russian once the summer crowds start to wind down.

[JasonB]

Great thanks Tahoe Joe. I am new to snake rolls and single speys, really only do snap ts and double speys for my winter fishIng, so expecting to have some trouble getting the hang of it. Will be practicing here on the russian once the summer crowds start to wind down.

Do practice the touch and go casts, if for no other reason than the fact they are fun. They are also a bit more quiet and stealthy, especially where the fish may be holding close (assuming that the casts are going smoothly, of course). However, you certainly don’t need to use TnG casts ... Snap Ts and Doubles and Pokes will all work just fine too. Tahoe Joe does make a good point about there being a bit of adjusting when first using TnG casts, and/or casting with just a mono leader. It isn’t a hard adjustment, but some practice time with the set ups you wish to use beforehand will make it a lot less frustrating.
Cheers,
JB

[mannamedstan]

I have used the steelhead and trout versileaders on my 5wt dually with a 4wt switch chucker and it works but it doesn't punch into any wind like a light mow/imow tip does. I have an intouch switch line for that rod too that really casts the versileader setup well as two handed overhead setup, better than the mow/imow tips.

On my 7wt switch the Scandi versitip with no tip works well on tight streams. I spend the summer in northwoods of Wisconsin (Ojai, CA the rest of the year) and it is really tight on the local river so I am running no tip with 25# chameleon and some flouro to get traditional spey flies to turn over for cohos, they seem to like to look up in the shallower runs. Lake run browns moved through a week ago and I was using a skagit line with medium tips to get down for the brown.

[Jcolin]

Thanks mannamedstan, ordered some spey versilraders from rio for my summer run setup and hoping they give me so more punch and are easier to turn over

[mannamedstan]

I bet you’ll be happy with the purchase. I’m learning that every run has a setup that works best and a bunch of other ways to make it work.

No grabs today. First no grab morning in 3 weeks fishing almost everyday. Gahhh

[Rick.H]

If things are slow you might consider using a faster sinking poly leader or even 10' of T8, they aren't always looking up!

[Jcolin]

Thanks RickH and everyone else for the responses. Got my polymer coated spey versileaders, a floating, 3 ips and a 5 ips, last thing im wondering is about leader for skating dries on the floating versileader. Tried looking it up on here and speypages and found conflicting ideas and am curious what you guys think. Should it be a 9’+ tapered leader like id use for fishing dries on a singlehand or could i get away with a straight 6’ piece of maxima? Not trying to obsess over it, but if tapered leaders are crucial for better casting/not spooking fish ill be sure to pick some up before i take off in october. Never hooked a steelhead on top before and if i get even a 1/2 lber skating id be stoked.

[TahoeJoe]

As you've seen, there are different opinions. I've used both. A 10' floating clear polyleader with a few feet of added Maxima tippet (usually 12# but sometime 8# or even 6#). Or, 12' of tapered nylon, SA makes a 12' Salmon leader that I've used, Rio probably has something similar. I guess that the nylon is a little more stealthy and it picks up easier with less spray. The polyleader gives a bit more stick in the anchor. Both work.

I've heard that a hover or intermediate polyleader is even more stealthy and casts the best when it's windy but I haven't tried that yet. A high floating, foam skating fly is definitely called for in this case. Maybe I'll try that this year.

[JasonB]

I think Tahoe Jeff said it pretty well. I’ve had similar experiences with both a floating polyleader with a few feet of tippet added, and with longer tapered leaders. I used to find that the floating polyleader was easier for me to cast, had better turnover, etc. I kind of drifted away from using it once I started tying up my own leaders. A good stiff butt section helps a lot, and I usually use a 12’-16’ leader (depending on the rod, and the wind). I generally won’t go less than 10# on the tippet, just because I’ve had to many break offs on 6-8# tippet.

If you want to keep it simple, the floating polyleader does take some of the guess work out of things. If you want to tinker with things, or prefer to go cheaper, tapered leaders get it done just fine too, but they might take you a bit more to fine tune them to get them to perform how you like.

[Jcolin]

Thanks guys. I was expecting the floating versileader to be clear and just having to add a few feet pf tippet, but its yellow and looks like a sink tip, mostly my concern is being able to cast it with another 10’ leader. Going to have to go out and experiment a bit.

[PV_Premier]

Thanks guys. I was expecting the floating versileader to be clear and just having to add a few feet pf tippet, but its yellow and looks like a sink tip, mostly my concern is being able to cast it with another 10’ leader. Going to have to go out and experiment a bit.

I would not do a 10' floating VL + 10' of leader, that will be a nightmare (at least for me, I am a sh*tty caster). 10' floating VL + 3-6' of tippet is the way to go or just use a 10' leader with 3-4' tippet...

Some floating VL's are colored and some are clear. I have a white floating VL, I think it's either Rio or OPST. Personally, I like the Airflo Polyleaders (same as Rio VL's basically). In the Airflos, the floating, hover, and intermediate are all actually "clear".

Remember the fish will be watching the fly not the leader. So fish a fly you are confident in and worry less about the VL, but if you are fishing a non-transparent floating VL in flat water, err on the side of a longer tippet.

[Acosby7]

Rio changed them to white if I recall... pretty lame.
I’d go with the airflo poly leaders. They are clear.

I would not suggest a mono leader for your rage line.

These concepts are ALL about matching diameters. Suppleness also plays a major roll hear.
The tip of the rage is still THICK. It is a “power scandi” or a “finesse skagit” in all reality.
The poly leader or “Versi” leaders are also THICK at the rear. They match up nicely, plus the poly is a much closer match with the fly lines “suppleness”


The rage was designed for those types of leaders, and not so much for mono.

To transfer energy smoothly our lines must transition smoothly part to part (IE head to tip)

Your rods energy is going through from a thick rage head than suddenly Transferring to a much much thinner and stiffer section of mono, say 15ft 20lb tapered Mono leader will not transfer energy nearly as well.

This is not to say it can’t be done.

But your on the right track with the rage and a poly leader.
Those 12lb will be just fine, especially on the Klammy.

Stick with 10fters and keep 3-5ft 10lb maxima danglin off that, and you will be good to go
For a long time.
These leaders will also translate to true Scandi eventually, which will slowly bring you back full circle when your go back to mono and start building 18ft tapers!

[PV_Premier]

A tippet ring on the end of the VL also makes tippet changes easy and longevity of the VL much improved.

[Jcolin]

great info thanks very much acsoby7. pv premier was thinking about tippet rings, good idea thank you.

[Brian Clemens]

I just make a loop knot at the end of the versileader. Then everything is loop to loop if you need to change IPS or change to a follow-up fly quickly.

[kevins]

The appointment status will appear in the Calendar and on the Appointment settings. You can either approve or decline the appointment. You can also specify a default duration for the appointment https://mlsdev.com/blog/how-to-build-a-social-network-website-from-scratch This will promote compliance and reduce the amount of time your staff needs to spend on scheduling. You can add or delete different types of appointments in Appointment settings.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Wonderful feedback here....





As 'richr' recommended, for those "new to two-handed fly casting" is to get an Airflo 'Rage' floating head first.

Have someone in a fly shop, like Andy Guibord @ Kiene's, get you the right size for your two-handed fly rod.



A few years back I had a nice 12'6" #6 Spey rod with maybe a Rio WindCutter line on it?

I was very new to all this and had a terrible time with that line.

Tournament Spey Caster Doug Duncan was working at our shop and he helped me get an Airflo Rage floating head, the right size, on my

reel. I went down to the American by myself and pick up maybe 15 to 20 feet instantly and felt so much better about my Spey casting.

I recommend floating running lines rather than some kind of mono shooting line. Mono gives you another 10 feet instantly but I hate it.



If you fish Half-pounders and adult Steelhead you have to get into the Spey/Two-handed fishing.

Be sure to have someone set you up with a good "balanced " outfit at first so it will cast well.

Get some instruction and go to Gristmill access or where every the Spey crowd is meeting on the American.


You need a smaller, lighter two-handed fly rod for Half-pounders. They don't even bend a 12'6" #6 line Spey rod.

Timing is perfect......Sept/Oct/Nov is all good.

[Mr T]

Wonderful feedback here....





As 'richr' recommended, for those "new to two-handed fly casting" is to get an Airflo 'Rage' floating head first.

Have someone in a fly shop, like Andy Guibord @ Kiene's, get you the right size for your two-handed fly rod.



A few years back I had a nice 12'6" #6 Spey rod with maybe a Rio WindCutter line on it?

I was very new to all this and had a terrible time with that line.

Tournament Spey Caster Doug Duncan was working at our shop and he helped me get an Airflo Rage floating head, the right size, on my

reel. I went down to the American by myself and pick up maybe 15 to 20 feet instantly and felt so much better about my Spey casting.

I recommend floating running lines rather than some kind of mono shooting line. Mono gives you another 10 feet instantly but I hate it.



If you fish Half-pounders and adult Steelhead you have to get into the Spey/Two-handed fishing.

Be sure to have someone set you up with a good "balanced " outfit at first so it will cast well.

Get some instruction and go to Gristmill access or where every the Spey crowd is meeting on the American.


You need a smaller, lighter two-handed fly rod for Half-pounders. They don't even bend a 12'6" #6 line Spey rod.

Timing is perfect......Sept/Oct/Nov is all good.


I got that rod off you a few years (6-7 now?) had the shop set it up and its been a great AR shad rod. I agree its heavy for half pounders.

So of course then I got a 3 wt then I needed a 5. and

and
and



Its Like a drug... first taste is free, after that you gotta pay!

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Rio and Airflo both make "Poly/Versi" leaders.


Many do use the floating Airflo Poly leaders because they are clear.

Some say the Rio Versi leaders are more durable?



In the Fall now many are fishing on top with skaters and damps wets.

I know that Spey experts Jason Hartwick and Al Perryman are using Scandi floating heads and long leader into November now.

With that Airflo Rage as a starter line you could use an Airflo floating clear Poly leader and then some mono after that.

As you improve your two-handed casting skills you might want to move to a Scandi floating head for the Fall.

_____________________________________________

I love your post Mr T.........

"I got that rod off you a few years (6-7 now?) had the shop set it up and its been a great AR shad rod. I agree its heavy for half pounders.

So of course then I got a 3 wt then I needed a 5. and

and
and"