Casting question

[JasonB]

I’ve been doing some work on my casts lately and having some noticeable improvements and I’m developing a better awareness for what’s going well and where I’m making mistakes. I do have one issue that shows up at times though, and I’m not totally sure what may be causing it, or how to address it. I’m guessing this is something obvious, but at times I’ll have a cast go out that looks and feels great at first: nice tight pointy loop, with good line speed (good, but not great), only to watch the cast not turn over at the end.

When this happens it’s when I’m trying for substantial distance, but I am also getting lots of casts to turn over completely at those distances (or occasionally more distance) with the same set up. I haven’t been able to conclusively pin down what’s so different. My best guess is that some of them seem to have higher line speed, but I’ve not been able to say what I did differently?

I’m using a Tarpon taper line, with a short stout leader, and a 2/0 baitfish pattern. My best guess is that the cast is just running out of gas to turn over the fly, but I’m not totally sure where to start. Of course I’ve tried to just clobber it as hard as I can (no, not deliberately), with predictably disastrous results! I’m also wondering if carrying too much line into the back cast could be a contributing factor? I’d welcome any ideas...
Thanks!
JB

[Ralph]

A couple of things people do when powering the last cast is to push too hard at the start, which will deflect the rod more than the previous casts (pulling harder on the haul will do the same thing) and wreck your rhythm and loop; the other is to extend the arm too early on the out bound delivery which opens up the loop. Try doing a bunch of long water hauls, this will often clean up your long casts and allow you to see where your flaws are being introduced.

Watch the loop unfurl behind you to be certain your timing is perfect. Lots of people are so intent on getting out the long shot they concentrate on only what's in front of them and forget about the other half of the cast. At least this is a start

[JasonB]

Thanks Ralph. Those are all indeed faults that I do have at times, especially when I end up trying to force things. This particular issue is actually unique, in that it’s happening when I haven’t muscled things and I’m watching what looks like a very pointy loop sail away only to die out without turning over completely. Sometimes wind is a bit of a factor, but it’s clearly not just the wind, since plenty of my casts are turning all the way over in these same practice sessions.

I’m curious about what you mean about long water hauls. Are you meaning to practice just using a water haul to make singular forward or singular back casts, with longer amounts of line? That sounds like a pretty good idea, since that certainly helped me in the very early stages of casting short to medium distances.

[Ralph]

I'm guessing if you set up a camera and video yourself, you would see 3 great pointy loop casts but on the release cast that loop has opened up a bit. You could also be slightly changing your trajectory and shooting the final cast slightly upward and fighting gravity.

The water haul forces you to smooth everything out (the surface tension does it for you). It sets you up for a perfect back cast and as we all know it takes a perfect backcast to make a perfect forecast. The only way to screw up the backcast with a water haul is by waiting too long and the tail starts to drop below plane -or- to start forward too soon which will tend to whip the loop around and cause a tailing loop at best or a wind knot at worst. TURN YOUR HEAD AND WATCH -but don't turn your shoulders. The split second before the loop unravels all the way or the line starts to sag towards the ground, smooooothly apply forward pressure to pull all the winkles out of the system, accelerate to the forward stop point, and stop as if the rod is hitting a wall (or a spoon of mashed potatoes is hitting the top of the pot).

Like using a water haul, casting directly into a stiff breeze can unravel casting problems. Facing into the wind, flip your line straight UP and hold the rod perfectly vertical and still. Allow the wind to sail the line behind you. When the line straightens out, drive the cast down and stop hard only a few inches above the water. You should be sending out a streaking vee across the white caps that jerk line from the reel at the end of the cast. Many people can cast further into a stiff wind using this technique than they can on a calm day. I use it all the time to make the wind work for me, rather than fight it.

[BS]

I’ve been doing some work on my casts lately and having some noticeable improvements and I’m developing a better awareness for what’s going well and where I’m making mistakes. I do have one issue that shows up at times though, and I’m not totally sure what may be causing it, or how to address it. I’m guessing this is something obvious, but at times I’ll have a cast go out that looks and feels great at first: nice tight pointy loop, with good line speed (good, but not great), only to watch the cast not turn over at the end.

When this happens it’s when I’m trying for substantial distance, but I am also getting lots of casts to turn over completely at those distances (or occasionally more distance) with the same set up. I haven’t been able to conclusively pin down what’s so different. My best guess is that some of them seem to have higher line speed, but I’ve not been able to say what I did differently?

I’m using a Tarpon taper line, with a short stout leader, and a 2/0 baitfish pattern. My best guess is that the cast is just running out of gas to turn over the fly, but I’m not totally sure where to start. Of course I’ve tried to just clobber it as hard as I can (no, not deliberately), with predictably disastrous results! I’m also wondering if carrying too much line into the back cast could be a contributing factor? I’d welcome any ideas...
Thanks!
JB

Jason,

While I'm FAR from being a Pro at casting, I did look up some Tarpon Taper line profiles and noticed that, for the most part, the total head length is around 40-41 feet in length...... including the rear taper.

That said, are you trying to cast with the ~ 41 foot head outside the rods tip top.......which could result in an "over loaded" rod, or airealizing too much line, which in turn could/would cause "dumping" i.e. just running out of gas, or are you casting with just the ~30 foot head length (minus the rear taper) which could be an "underlined rod" scenario.

What weight rod and what weight fly line are you using ??

Adding some of those "details" could help to figure this out. :D:D


Bob

[JasonB]

Hey thanks again. There’s some good stuff there, and you are describing a lot of what I’m working on right now. Timing, smoothing out the start of my casts, tightening up my back cast, controlling the release trajectory, etc.

Just to be clear though, when I say I’m watching pointy loops that just die out, I do mean that the loop stays tight after I’ve released it and it’s staying very tight all the way out. The thing that’s odd, and kind of frustrating, is that most of these casts usually look like some of my best loops of all... but somewhere between 60-80 feet or so I can start to see that it’s not looking likely to turn all the way over. Sometimes I can see hints earlier in flight, sometimes it looks great all the way out to 85-90’ but dies out with the loop still tightly formed and not quite turning over. Often, I will at first think I’ve just nailed it as I watch it go. In other words, it’s definitely not occurring due to overloading the rod or opening up the loop (though I do that far more often than I would like too).
Thanks again,
JB

[JasonB]

Jason,

While I'm FAR from being a Pro at casting, I did look up some Tarpon Taper line profiles and noticed that, for the most part, the total head length is around 40-41 feet in length...... including the rear taper.

That said, are you trying to cast with the ~ 41 foot head outside the rods tip top.......which could result in an "over loaded" rod, or airealizing too much line, which in turn could/would cause "dumping" i.e. just running out of gas, or are you casting with just the ~30 foot head length (minus the rear taper) which could be an "underlined rod" scenario.

What weight rod and what weight fly line are you using ??

Adding some of those "details" could help to figure this out. :D:D


Bob

Thanks Bob, the rod certainly isn’t being overloaded here, but you did hit right on what I’ve been wondering about. The head is 41’ irrc (SA mastery Tarpon 12wt, Echo3s 12wt rod), but for these longest casts I’ve been trying to pick up varying lengths of line. I definitely notice that I have many more casting faults start showing up if I try to pick up too much more line, usually 4-5’ feet more than the head seems to work pretty well...sometimes more is still good, sometimes less.
Thanks! JB

[BS]

Thanks Bob, the rod certainly isn’t being overloaded here, but you did hit right on what I’ve been wondering about. The head is 41’ irrc (SA mastery Tarpon 12wt, Echo3s 12wt rod), but for these longest casts I’ve been trying to pick up varying lengths of line. I definitely notice that I have many more casting faults start showing up if I try to pick up too much more line, usually 4-5’ feet more than the head seems to work pretty well...sometimes more is still good, sometimes less.
Thanks! JB

Gotcha' Jason.

Have you tried any other 12wt lines with different head profiles/tapers ???
And if so, did this casting "bug a boo" you're trying to eliminate get any better or worse ???

It might be worth it to try a different 12wt line with a different head profile/length just to see if things improve or get worse.......

I'm thinking it's maybe just a case of re-adjusting your casting stroke/power applied to that ~41' head of your Tarpon line.

In your first post you said "When this happens it’s when I’m trying for substantial distance".
Are you using a single haul, or a double haul, or neither ??

Still scratching my head.............................:confused::confus ed:


Bob

[JasonB]

I have tried other rod line combinations, and it has happened before but not generally with such well formed loops. I’m curious to try another line/leader/fly on this rod to see if it changes things much. I’m double hauling on these and other casts.

[BS]

I have tried other rod line combinations, and it has happened before but not generally with such well formed loops. I’m curious to try another line/leader/fly on this rod to see if it changes things much. I’m double hauling on these and other casts.

I think the above in bold is the key here.
A ~ 41 foot head is a whole lot of fly line to airealize and get to roll out consistently like you're trying to do.

I'm curious to see if a different line/leader/fly combo changes your results as well. :confused::confused:

I'm thinking a ~ 30' ish head will yield much better results for you.

Just my thoughts,


Bob

[BS]

I have tried other rod line combinations, and it has happened before but not generally with such well formed loops. I’m curious to try another line/leader/fly on this rod to see if it changes things much. I’m double hauling on these and other casts.

Just for grins, I went to the SA Tarpon Fly Line web page and saw that the 12wt Tarpon line is 400 grains @ 30 ft.
I also went to the Rio Tropical Outbound Short web page and saw their 12wt Tropical OBS is 510 grains @ 30 ft.

That's a whopping 110 grains difference between the two lines...................:eek::eek:

It'd be nice to give the Rio Tropical OBS a try and see what gives.........................:confused::confused:


Bob

[JasonB]

I think the above in bold is the key here.
A ~ 41 foot head is a whole lot of fly line to airealize and get to roll out consistently like you're trying to do.

I'm curious to see if a different line/leader/fly combo changes your results as well. :confused::confused:

I'm thinking a ~ 30' ish head will yield much better results for you.

Just my thoughts,


Bob

That does support one of my leading suspicions so far. Thing is I’m carrying more line than that on most of those casts too (probably closer to 50?). When I’m casting with just the head outside the tip I don’t tend to have many issues, but I am finding that to get more distance I can only shoot so much line; hence I’ve been toying around with both picking up more line and/or shooting a few feet into my back cast. I need to get back out and double check that a bit more carefully, maybe mark some distances on the line so I can see exactly how consistent I am with various amounts of line. I probably also need to spend a bit more of my time casting in the 40-60’ range, but damn it’s fun to get to see that line really fly when I get a good one!

[BS]

That does support one of my leading suspicions so far. Thing is I’m carrying more line than that on most of those casts too (probably closer to 50?). When I’m casting with just the head outside the tip I don’t tend to have many issues, but I am finding that to get more distance I can only shoot so much line; hence I’ve been toying around with both picking up more line and/or shooting a few feet into my back cast. I need to get back out and double check that a bit more carefully, maybe mark some distances on the line so I can see exactly how consistent I am with various amounts of line. I probably also need to spend a bit more of my time casting in the 40-60’ range, but damn it’s fun to get to see that line really fly when I get a good one!

Here's one more thought Jason, then I'll step aside and let others give their thoughts.........

It appears you're trying to cast with ~ 9 feet of running line (and "toying" with extending that distance even more) beyond the rod tip.
Just imagine trying to cast a shooting head with 9+ feet of running line outside the tip top....................

I've blown many casts trying to do that...................so, for me, a couple/few feet of running line outside the tip top (to allow room for a double haul) works just right.....................YMMV ;);)

Watching to see how this unfolds !!!!!


Bob

[Larry S]

JasonB,
For what it's worth, once you've discovered the amount of line that should remain outside your
rod tip before beginning your cast, you might want to take a magic marker and mark that spot
on the line. Many of my two-handed lines come with such an "indicator." The "indicator" is of a
different color.
Best to you in your search.
Larry S
Sun Diego

[Carl Blackledge]

That does support one of my leading suspicions so far. Thing is I’m carrying more line than that on most of those casts too (probably closer to 50?). When I’m casting with just the head outside the tip I don’t tend to have many issues, but I am finding that to get more distance I can only shoot so much line; hence I’ve been toying around with both picking up more line and/or shooting a few feet into my back cast. I need to get back out and double check that a bit more carefully, maybe mark some distances on the line so I can see exactly how consistent I am with various amounts of line. I probably also need to spend a bit more of my time casting in the 40-60’ range, but damn it’s fun to get to see that line really fly when I get a good one!

Jason,

With all due respect to you and all the others who are trying to help you out with your question. It's very easy to end up with too many "cooks in the kitchen", hears my recommendation, go take a casting lesson from a very reputable person and perhaps photograph it. I'll bet you the instructor see's whats going on in a heart beat. another suggestion would be to bring a few different lines and have the guy watch you cast all of them, remember the line you can cast the easiest and have the most constant results is the line you want to toss, not some line that somebody else is trying to push down your thorough or that line works for them, we all have our own casting stroke.

Carl Blackledge

[Bob G]

Stick with Carl’s recommendation. Good Luck, Bob

[Larry S]

JasonB,
BTW, your casting instructor should have a go at your setup as well.
Hope you keep us informed about your progress.
Best,
Larry S
Sun Diego

[JasonB]

Thanks for the advice guys! I managed to get in a few casts yesterday, and despite a substantial tailwind, I think I may have figured out what’s going on. Bob (bs) kind of verified one of the issues being too much line, though I hadn’t been able to pin down exactly how or why. I had noticed that it seemed to mostly happen when I was picking up more line, and wondered if I had too much “overhang” ... except that I did manage to get some casts to turn over with gusto with just as much line out on the pickup (just not with any consistency). In watching my casts yesterday it looks like I’m sometimes releasing the shooting line a hair early, which results in a nice tight loop that just doesn’t unroll all the way. When I don’t try to pick up more than the head + 2-3’, and I don’t try to cast more than about 60’ or so the issue is pretty much gone... try to pick up more line and shoot for the moon, I start seeing it appear sometimes.

I think what’s happening is that as I’m picking up more line, and adding more drift to my backcast, I am lengthening my casting stroke; however, on the forward cast I’m not adjusting my tempo the same. In other words I’m doing a longer stroke, but still performing my haul and release to the tempo of a shorter quicker stroke: too early. I think I was even exacerbating the issue at time by suspecting that I needed more line speed, by focusing more on hauling I may have been starting it even sooner? Part of the issue I believe is I have been playing around a lot with making adjustments to my casting stroke with this rod in particular, as some lightbulbs are going on it’s been helpful, but it does mean I’m having some timing/coordination issues at times. All good stuff though.

Carl’s suggestion about getting instruction is spot on, of course. Last year my wife and I both had a couple of lessons from Jeff Putnam, and it was very helpful and informative, even if not exactly ego boosting! I do hope to get in another day with Jeff Putnam this spring, but I also appreciate hearing others thoughts always.
Cheers,
JB

[Carl Blackledge]

Jason,

Please re-read your 2nd paragraph a few times, it starts off with "I think", your trying to fix yourself and your the problem, take the hypothetical out of the equation, perhaps have your wife film you? after you watch yourself it's pretty simple after that. Just trying to help you.

Carl Blackledge

[BS]

Thanks for the advice guys! I managed to get in a few casts yesterday, and despite a substantial tailwind, I think I may have figured out what’s going on. Bob (bs) kind of verified one of the issues being too much line, though I hadn’t been able to pin down exactly how or why. I had noticed that it seemed to mostly happen when I was picking up more line, and wondered if I had too much “overhang” ... except that I did manage to get some casts to turn over with gusto with just as much line out on the pickup (just not with any consistency). In watching my casts yesterday it looks like I’m sometimes releasing the shooting line a hair early, which results in a nice tight loop that just doesn’t unroll all the way. When I don’t try to pick up more than the head + 2-3’, and I don’t try to cast more than about 60’ or so the issue is pretty much gone... try to pick up more line and shoot for the moon, I start seeing it appear sometimes.

I think what’s happening is that as I’m picking up more line, and adding more drift to my backcast, I am lengthening my casting stroke; however, on the forward cast I’m not adjusting my tempo the same. In other words I’m doing a longer stroke, but still performing my haul and release to the tempo of a shorter quicker stroke: too early. I think I was even exacerbating the issue at time by suspecting that I needed more line speed, by focusing more on hauling I may have been starting it even sooner? Part of the issue I believe is I have been playing around a lot with making adjustments to my casting stroke with this rod in particular, as some lightbulbs are going on it’s been helpful, but it does mean I’m having some timing/coordination issues at times. All good stuff though.

Carl’s suggestion about getting instruction is spot on, of course. Last year my wife and I both had a couple of lessons from Jeff Putnam, and it was very helpful and informative, even if not exactly ego boosting! I do hope to get in another day with Jeff Putnam this spring, but I also appreciate hearing others thoughts always.
Cheers,
JB

Jason,

I'm not trying to start any kind of war or wizzin' match with anyone here, but, I firmly believe that having the "right tool(s)" for the "task at hand" and THEN learning how to use them correctly is the way to go.

Given that......................................
You "appear" to want to cast at distances greater than 60 feet.
Your "skills set" appears to allow you to easily carry 50 feet of line in the air during false casting.................very nice !!!
Your current fly line, head length of ~ 40 feet, works well for you up to and around 60 feet.
Beyond 60 feet, things start "falling apart".

It is a well documented given that longer heads will cast further than a shorter head........if the caster has the "skills" to do so.
As you have found, ~40 head with ~10 feet of running line out past the tip top can't/doesn't transfer the energy efficiently/effectively to the head of your current fly line.

I'm thinking you should do a "try before you buy" (if you can find one), a line with a 50 foot head length.

**I don't sell fly fishing equipment, nor do I receive anything from anyone for any recommendations. **

This looks like it (10 weight version) could be what you're looking for: https://www.scientificanglers.com/product/amplitude-infinity-salt/

It's a ~50 foot head and appears to be a front loaded taper too (similar to a Rio OBS taper).
At 50 feet the grain weight "should be" somewhere around 500 grains.

To me, this line (or any similar line) looks to be the "correct tool" that you would use to accomplish your casting goals........ie. > 60 feet without the line "dumping".

I strongly recommend the "try before you buy" route on this one.
Shelling out $ 130.00 for an untested fly line is too risky and too rich for my blood........:eek::eek:

Once again, I'm not trying to start a war or wizzin' match here, I just think you should have the proper tool(s) to achieve your goals without becoming a tournament caster......not that there's anything wrong with that........;);)

My take and thinking "a little outside the box".


Bob

[JasonB]

Jason,

Please re-read your 2nd paragraph a few times, it starts off with "I think", your trying to fix yourself and your the problem, take the hypothetical out of the equation, perhaps have your wife film you? after you watch yourself it's pretty simple after that. Just trying to help you.

Carl Blackledge

Yes, the uncertainty was specifically stated. I only had about 15 minutes to try a few things yesterday, and the tailwind was significant enough to possibly hide a few subtle differences. I’m hoping to do a few more casts this afternoon to see if I can verify my findings from yesterday, but it certainly looks like I’ve found the main nemesis. Plenty of other faults to sort out still for years to come no doubt! I’ve tried video a few times, and it can be helpful at times. The main limitation for me is that I can only really see well what my body is doing, or watch the loop shape on either the forward or the back cast. I’ve found it very difficult to capture all on the same cast in a helpful manner. Maybe I need 3 or 4 cameras :rolleyes:

Jason,

I'm not trying to start any kind of war or wizzin' match with anyone here, but, I firmly believe that having the "right tool(s)" for the "task at hand" and THEN learning how to use them correctly is the way to go.

Given that......................................
You "appear" to want to cast at distances greater than 60 feet.
Your "skills set" appears to allow you to easily carry 50 feet of line in the air during false casting.................very nice !!!
Your current fly line, head length of ~ 40 feet, works well for you up to and around 60 feet.
Beyond 60 feet, things start "falling apart".

It is a well documented given that longer heads will cast further than a shorter head........if the caster has the "skills" to do so.
As you have found, ~40 head with ~10 feet of running line out past the tip top can't/doesn't transfer the energy efficiently/effectively to the head of your current fly line.

I'm thinking you should do a "try before you buy" (if you can find one), a line with a 50 foot head length.


Bob

A couple of clarifications:
-I definitely wish to be able to cast further, and with large saltwater streamers! And I know, from painful past experiences, that an 80’ practice cast can easily be downgraded to a 40’ pile of junk when a big fish shows up moving quickly past.
-I wouldn’t say that I can easily carry 50’ of line, especially false casting. I am mostly doing pick up and lay down casts, not false casting. I also rechecked the stats for my line and it looks like the head is actually 36’... so minus a few more feet from all estimates. Easy pick ups for me would be the head plus a few feet, percentages gradually go down as I add to that.
-I wouldn’t exactly say things start falling apart past 60’, but that’s the neighborhood where my percentage of good casts starts to become less and less consistent. Especially if I’m trying to carry a bit too much line into my backcast. Where things really start to fall apart is when I just have to see if I can shoot the whole line out...though I have come very close quite often, those are rarely my best casts.
-I don’t think it’s so much the line here, as much as needing to adjust my tempo with it.
-totally agree about getting the right line for the job! Honestly, for this particular rod being able to turn over bigger flies will be the most important issue, including into the wind. I’m keeping my eyes open for an Outbound intermediate line for fishing. For now I like practicing with the Tarpon taper in part due to the fact that it has a bit less aggressive taper.
-No need to worry about offending me here, my ego has been beaten down by my own errors plenty...nothing left to defend there! I really appreciate everyone’s sentiments here. It’s hard to accurately convey casting details online, but every tid bit that has been shared is good information. I hope others can glean some nuggets to consider as well.
I’ll report back with some successes this afternoon I hope!
JB