Spear Fishing

[Bryan Morgan]

Does anyone know the legalities of spear fishing for Spriper. I saw a guy shoot a big female and I wonder if that's why we are seeing more big fish at this time of year. He said I was f....up and didn't know what I was talking about. This was just below Watt. And I know it's a grey area, but I would love to know from anyone from you who are affiliated with DFW .

[Bryan Morgan]

Meant to say if that is why we are not seeing more

[Tony Buzolich]

Bryon,

You hit right on the head. If more and more of these big fish are killed, there will be less and less of them to spawn in the future and further reduce our saddened striper population.

Yes, the American River Parkway has an ordinance against bringing any kind of spear-gun into the park which runs all the way from the mouth of the American all the way to Folsom.

This topic comes up every year when divers show up. The really sad part is these big stripers are NOT good to eat as they're full of mercury which canbe passed on to humans. Divers know this, and will maybe take a "trophy" shot picture, then throw the uneatable carcass in a dumpster. What a waste.

Immediately call and report this to the park rangers. They know it is a sore subject but has to be enforced. If the guy was using a boat be sure to get his CF number with the information. Here's the number to call " 916 875-7275"

It is not illegal in other California waters, but the American River is in a protected zone through-out all of Sacramento county.

Good luck,
Tony

[winxp_man]

Bryan, Tony,

Scary part is these assholes managed to spear a surgeon on the Yuba!!! It was swinning around with a rope on it to. My buddy that told me about it said they called for some agency to come out. Cant remember who. But as they where fishing going down river the team was going up river in search of said sturgeon.

I say EFF these assholes!!!! I dont give a crap what excuse they come up with! It needs to be outlawed on the american, feather, and Yuba period! Any clear waters that has anadromous fish in them.

[Rossflyguy]

We’re not seeing more because forage isn’t in the numbers as it used to be, meaning salmon smolt aren’t in the huge numbers due to water management and dams. That’s why you see striper starting to show up in Redding eating trout. They’re invasive and being around for 100 yrs doesn’t make them native. They’re great game fish but invasive nonetheless. If it’s not illegal why harass them? Are you all going to harass conventional anglers because they catch far more numbers than fly guys? We’re all on the same team guys. Big fish need to be taken out of the system as well to keep things balanced. I believe I heard a biologist say the extremely large females stop breeding and become eating machines. Not sure how accurate that is.

[cdevine]

I wouldn't engage anybody with a spear gun who looks to be up to no good. Just not worth it. Call the Warden. One of the many reasons you will never catch me on the AR. It seems the further you get away from population base fishing the better quality of people you run into. I've just stuck to this motto and its worked for me so far.

[winxp_man]

I wouldn't engage anybody with a spear gun who looks to be up to no good. Just not worth it. Call the Warden. One of the many reasons you will never catch me on the AR. It seems the further you get away from population base fishing the better quality of people you run into. I've just stuck to this motto and its worked for me so far.

Every river has its own yahoos hahahaha! Having fished the coast for a few years now.... I will say I have ran into quite a few weirdos and angry bird type people. But yes when talking to spear guys I would be careful if they get agressive!

[TaylerW]

I assume most of these guys are illegally accessing the river via the parkway, but if you access by boat i think you can spearfish legally. It's a touch subject. While those that are poaching need to be fined accordingly, those enjoying the form of recreation they choose to conduct LEGALLY it is no business of mine. Peta thinks ant and all.of the activites we enjoy are bad. A similar situation is the long range big game hunting thing. While equipment now allows for precision long range hunting, is it fair chase hunting to shoot an ungulate at 1000yards? Your answer purely comes from your stand point. We all recreate differently. Not to mention they are invasive as well. Just my .02, would love to hear your thoughts on mine...

[OceanSunfish]

I assume most of these guys are illegally accessing the river via the parkway, but if you access by boat i think you can spearfish legally. It's a touch subject. While those that are poaching need to be fined accordingly, those enjoying the form of recreation they choose to conduct LEGALLY it is no business of mine. Peta thinks ant and all.of the activites we enjoy are bad. A similar situation is the long range big game hunting thing. While equipment now allows for precision long range hunting, is it fair chase hunting to shoot an ungulate at 1000yards? Your answer purely comes from your stand point. We all recreate differently. Not to mention they are invasive as well. Just my .02, would love to hear your thoughts on mine...

The bottom line is that the initial proposal to allow spearfishing in inland waterways was, unfortunately, not vetted to the extent that it should have been, etc. The proposal went through without much notice or consideration by, I believe, the Fish and Game Commission..... who have probable made other wondrous blunders (and some good decisions) over the decades....

From a common sense point of view, a spear gun is a GUN no different than a crossbow or other weapon that is construed as threatening. It has no place in waterways/parkways considered in a urban/sub-urban area, especially populated areas where people/families-children leisurely recreate. This is just stooopid to even debate. It's just plain common sense in today's times.

The culture of sport fishing in CA is vanishing/being marginalized by the week as CA is on the verge of 40 million people. As a result, it's getting near to where it looks odd to even fish with rod/reel in an urban waterway. Yet, someone with a spear gun can discharge said gun in an urban waterway. It's uncouth..(but so is everything the "me" generation displays on their FB page an there-in lies the real problem...... everything, bad behavior and all, is being justified....... it's not illegal to go up to someone and sneeze in their face, but do you do it anyway?) BTW, I can get cited for discharging a .177 pellet gun in that same urban parkway or worse, be ID as a mass-gunman and get taken out by LEOs.

To substantiate or validate the legalization of spearfishing in inland waters by adding that Striped Bass are invasive is not applicable either. That's an added justification (that word again) to those that oppose anything or initiative that comes in the way of water exports to southward Junior Water right holders, et. al. Beside, there are other more highly efficient methods of reducing the number of an invasive species..... like destroying the habitat they reside in, i.g., the SF Bay and Delta. Oh, that's already being done!

This spearfishing thing has been discussed/debated ad-nauseam and therefore, I do not wish to continue this further as it will not change anything. This discussion only proves just how selfish, divided, and greedy our society behaves today and how far it will go to justify such behavior too. There's no more "right way", just "my way".

[leicafish]

The bottom line is that the initial proposal to allow spearfishing in inland waterways was, unfortunately, not vetted to the extent that it should have been, etc. The proposal went through without much notice or consideration by, I believe, the Fish and Game Commission..... who have probable made other wondrous blunders (and some good decisions) over the decades....

From a common sense point of view, a spear gun is a GUN no different than a crossbow or other weapon that is construed as threatening. It has no place in waterways/parkways considered in a urban/sub-urban area, especially populated areas where people/families-children leisurely recreate. This is just stooopid to even debate. It's just plain common sense in today's times.

The culture of sport fishing in CA is vanishing/being marginalized by the week as CA is on the verge of 40 million people. As a result, it's getting near to where it looks odd to even fish with rod/reel in an urban waterway. Yet, someone with a spear gun can discharge said gun in an urban waterway. It's uncouth..(but so is everything the "me" generation displays on their FB page an there-in lies the real problem...... everything, bad behavior and all, is being justified....... it's not illegal to go up to someone and sneeze in their face, but do you do it anyway?) BTW, I can get cited for discharging a .177 pellet gun in that same urban parkway or worse, be ID as a mass-gunman and get taken out by LEOs.

To substantiate or validate the legalization of spearfishing in inland waters by adding that Striped Bass are invasive is not applicable either. That's an added justification (that word again) to those that oppose anything or initiative that comes in the way of water exports to southward Junior Water right holders, et. al. Beside, there are other more highly efficient methods of reducing the number of an invasive species..... like destroying the habitat they reside in, i.g., the SF Bay and Delta. Oh, that's already being done!

This spearfishing thing has been discussed/debated ad-nauseam and therefore, I do not wish to continue this further as it will not change anything. This discussion only proves just how selfish, divided, and greedy our society behaves today and how far it will go to justify such behavior too. There's no more "right way", just "my way".


I looked up the regs for spearfishing on the American. It is legal from May 1 to Sept 15 only a mile downstream from Arden. The stretch upstream to the dam is closed to spearfishing. So to Bryan's original question it appears that the shooter was legal if the fish was shot at Watt. If anyone sees someone spearfishing above "a mile below Arden" then they ought to call the warden or ranger. The other stuff related to transport etc is less clear to me.

Why not try and get the regulations changed? It's not written in stone and obviously a bunch of spear fisherman snookered us a few years ago by getting this through the FGC. There would be a lot in favor of banning spearfishing for stripers. 1) Safety. Spearfishing season on the A is also rafting season on the A. Spearguns and rafts are a bad mix. Great visual there. 2) The rule is inconsistent with other regs. There are no other gamefish allowed to be speared in inland waters. 3) Perhaps most importantly there must be a ton more fisherman(and not just fly fisherman) that would favor a ban on spearfishing stripers than there are those in favor. Think the next FGC regs review cycle is 2019.

Gary

[Sheepdog8404]

From a common sense point of view, a spear gun is a GUN no different than a crossbow or other weapon that is construed as threatening. It has no place in waterways/parkways considered in a urban/sub-urban area, especially populated areas where people/families-children leisurely recreate. This is just stooopid to even debate. It's just plain common sense in today's times.

... BTW, I can get cited for discharging a .177 pellet gun in that same urban parkway or worse, be ID as a mass-gunman and get taken out by LEOs.



That's a pretty soft argument you make... Discharging a firearm, pellet gun or loosing an arrow/bolt in the parkway would be, in my eyes, unsafe. This is coming from an extensive hunting background too. But to claim that firing a tethered spear underwater, or "shooting" a pole spear underwater is just as unsafe as the aforementioned examples is a bit of a stretch.

The river is state property and the land around it is the parkway. Different laws apply to each.



I looked up the regs for spearfishing on the American.
Gary

Can you post a link to this information?


For everyone else who is against it, the bottom line is that it is legal whether we agree with it or not. If you want the law changed, write your congressman instead of taking the same amount of time to bitch about it on here and get nowhere. I'd be real curious to see how many of the folks crying on the forums would take the time to write a letter to someone who has the power to make a difference.

[mogaru]

The "water lords" use many tricks to get rid of the fish and subsequently have no obstacles to collet as much water as they want. Allowing spearfishing is one of their strategies, because the bigger fish, the ones that reproduce, are mostly the target......... I don't know of any country (civilized) that allows spearfishing in rivers.

[JasonB]

For everyone else who is against it, the bottom line is that it is legal whether we agree with it or not. If you want the law changed, write your congressman instead of taking the same amount of time to bitch about it on here and get nowhere. I'd be real curious to see how many of the folks crying on the forums would take the time to write a letter to someone who has the power to make a difference.

I agree with you about the importance of communication with our representatives in government, letters, emails, phone calls, petitions, etc. I’m also pretty certain Oceansunfish does all of that, as we all should. All that said, don’t hold your breath expecting an honest considered response. Nearly every single attempt at communication I have had with McClintock has been a joke, as far as the responses he has offered, same for many other elected officials too for that matter! I still do it, and encourage anyone who hasn’t to do the same; if nothing else it does give a lot better sense about who they serve than the campaign slogans and promises.

Aside from all that I’m totally in favor of eliminating spear fishing from inland freshwater lakes and streams personally.
JB

[OceanSunfish]

I agree with you about the importance of communication with our representatives in government, letters, emails, phone calls, petitions, etc. I’m also pretty certain Oceansunfish does all of that, as we all should. All that said, don’t hold your breath expecting an honest considered response. Nearly every single attempt at communication I have had with McClintock has been a joke, as far as the responses he has offered, same for many other elected officials too for that matter! I still do it, and encourage anyone who hasn’t to do the same; if nothing else it does give a lot better sense about who they serve than the campaign slogans and promises.

Aside from all that I’m totally in favor of eliminating spear fishing from inland freshwater lakes and streams personally.
JB

Thank you JasonB. You are correct. I've personally attended Town Hall Meetings held by my loathsome District 4 representative..... McClintock. I've taken careful notes throughout and in doing so, literally had his aides looking over my shoulder trying to get a view of what I had written...... It was awkward. Made me suddenly realize what my elders described from years ago as well as what it must have been like in 1930's Germany, etc.

When asked about water policies, CVPIA, and alike....... "well, it's complicated....." next question!

Finally, what is worse than seeing fishing vanish as a culture in California is this back-and-forth bickering on this and other sites among fisherman. And, don't even get the Native Fish Society folks going...... ugh.

There should be one front........ CVPIA. If not, see you all in Oregon in a few years! ;)

[leicafish]

Can you post a link to this information?


For everyone else who is against it, the bottom line is that it is legal whether we agree with it or not. If you want the law changed, write your congressman instead of taking the same amount of time to bitch about it on here and get nowhere. I'd be real curious to see how many of the folks crying on the forums would take the time to write a letter to someone who has the power to make a difference.

OK here are the references for the regs:

From p. 13 of 2018-19 CA Freshwater Regulations

2.30. Spearfishing.
Spearfishing is permitted only in:
(a) The Colorado River District for carp, tilapia,
goldfish and mullet, all year.
(b) The Valley District and Black Butte Lake
(Tehama County) for carp, tilapia, goldfish,
striped bass, western sucker, Sacramento
blackfish, hardhead, Sacramento pikeminnow
and lamprey, from May 1 through September
15, except that no spearfishing is permitted in:
(1) Shasta County (see Section 2.12).
(2) Tehama County except Black Butte Lake.
(3) Butte Creek (Butte Co.).
(4) Feather River below Oroville Dam
(Butte Co.).
(5) Designated salmon spawning areas (See
Fish and Game Code Section 1505).
…..

California Code, Fish and Game Code - FGC § 1505
(a) The department may manage, control, and protect the portions of the following spawning areas that occupy state-owned lands, to the extent necessary to protect fishlife in these areas:
(1) The Sacramento River between Keswick and Squaw Hill Bridge, near Vina.
(2) The Feather River between Oroville and the mouth of Honcut Creek.
(3) The Yuba River between Englebright Dam and a point approximately four miles east of Marysville.
(4) The American River between Nimbus Dam and a point one mile downstream from Arden Way.
……

Some of the regs edited out for clarity. All available online.

Changing the law does not require writing your congressman. It requires getting a proposal into the Fish and Game Commission and then generating support for it. It's doable but requires a bit of effort. How do I know this? I started Putah Creek Trout in 2007 with Greg Bonovich, cyama and some other guys. I went before the FGC in 2009 to propose changing Putah to zero-limit. It got changed in 2010. With the work of PCT in cooperation with DFW, Putah is now both a Heritage Wild and Trophy Trout water. Proof the law can be changed....

[Sheepdog8404]

Thanks for posting that! I wonder ho many folks would be complaining if they were down there shooting huge Suckers and Squawfish...

[winxp_man]

Thanks for posting that! I wonder ho many folks would be complaining if they were down there shooting huge Suckers and Squawfish...

I would! Because I know the assholes will not be eating them! And that they do it for fun. What do some have such small balls that they have a need to kill on a constant to prove something? I guess to some eating a fish that are 17-25 years old, and full of the worse crap that now fill our water ways; is a thing. I know of some that took big ones and did not eat them. So why kill them if they will not eat them. I dont want to hear the well they gave them to someone else..... Then I have to question the reason behind spearing such big hens!!!

Having had a long talk with Steelie (memeber here) he knows I know the dark side of taking fish. And it’s a scary one!! if I where to discuss it here most would lose their minds!!!! The poaching that goes on is not even funny! Yet some on here want to blame stripers with no FACTS!!! Stop with your damn opinions, and post studies of facts! I sure as hell can post links, but don’t know if it’s worth the time because some will still not see it for what it is. Stripers are the scape goat for why the salmon decline is happening! Yet no mention of damns, and the pollutions that pours directly in rivers from our streets!! Recently saw loads of crap come down some pipes at howe ave area.... 0_o

[Bryan Morgan]

Well said Aaron!

[JCam]

If I am not mistaken, the native Americans have a right to spear fish on their ancestral land. I fully support indigenous people keeping cultural practices alive.

Personally I am not into banning things on public property. I am sure there are people that think the AR and other waters should be closed to all fishing because they feel fishing is needlessly cruel or wading messes up what little spawning beds are left.

We all spend money on better stuff to help us catch more fish. If you play with ban fire, you are going to get burnt.
Just something to consider.

[Darian]

jcam,.... After reading your post, I'm wondering what your statement:

"If you play with ban fire, you are going to get burnt."

Has to do with the discussion in this thread. Please provide an explanation.... :confused:

[JCam]

jcam,.... After reading your post, I'm wondering what your statement:

"If you play with ban fire, you are going to get burnt."

Has to do with the discussion in this thread. Please provide an explanation.... :confused:

If you get to ban something you do not like that someone else does, you concede the right someone else can ban what you like.

[Darian]

If you get to ban something you do not like that someone else does, you concede the right someone else can ban what you like.

OK, I understand. Thanks for the response....

[Rossflyguy]

I would! Because I know the assholes will not be eating them! And that they do it for fun. What do some have such small balls that they have a need to kill on a constant to prove something? I guess to some eating a fish that are 17-25 years old, and full of the worse crap that now fill our water ways; is a thing. I know of some that took big ones and did not eat them. So why kill them if they will not eat them. I dont want to hear the well they gave them to someone else..... Then I have to question the reason behind spearing such big hens!!!

Having had a long talk with Steelie (memeber here) he knows I know the dark side of taking fish. And it’s a scary one!! if I where to discuss it here most would lose their minds!!!! The poaching that goes on is not even funny! Yet some on here want to blame stripers with no FACTS!!! Stop with your damn opinions, and post studies of facts! I sure as hell can post links, but don’t know if it’s worth the time because some will still not see it for what it is. Stripers are the scape goat for why the salmon decline is happening! Yet no mention of damns, and the pollutions that pours directly in rivers from our streets!! Recently saw loads of crap come down some pipes at howe ave area.... 0_o

Pretty sure everyone, including myself, have said dams and water management are the main issue. But you seem to think striper have no part of the issue. There are many links, podcasts, and pictures with bellies full of smolt by biologist/fisherman that say striper are invasive and don’t help native salmonoid populations. Dams in the valley are here to stay. No use debating that. Water management sucks and we need to vite in a better rep to help solve that. I don’t know why everyone one is fixated on a person legally harvesting fish. Would you rather someone buy farmed fish that spread disease to wild fish? Striper are far more abundant than everyone is making it out to be. There aren’t as many large stripers BECAUSE salmon population is down so forage (smolt) items aren’t as plentiful and not to mention the population of fisherman targeting striper.. That’s why stripers are showing up in and above Redding. Trout to feed them and the guides up there are promoting the take home method of stripers there. Barging smolt down past kill zones is imperative. That’s why the Mokelumne has such good returns of salmon the last few years. All the evidence is there. People are just so touchy about stripers. They’re absolutely fun to catch and they’re good to eat. They also fall under the category as invasive by scientific standards. Who cares if a spear fisherman LEGALLY pops one and takes it home or gives it to a friend. Everyone needs to relax.

[winxp_man]

And Ross stripers only became a problem in the late 90’s funny isn’t it!

[Rossflyguy]

And Ross stripers only became a problem in the late 90’s funny isn’t it!

Funny, logging only became a problem in the 70’s. Funny isn’t it.

[John Sv]

Good points Rossflyguy, Walter, and Jcam!
Bans are great when 'your side' is winning, sucky when not! And it's unlikely to run the table of always being on the side you want to be in a ban.
Also as an invasive to CA and a native of the Chesapeake Bay watershed, I can attest that everyone should eat lots of stripers! Agree that the big cows have too much mercury.
PS I may be blending these two threads together.

[Ralph]

y;185207]Pretty sure everyone, including myself, have said dams and water management are the main issue. But you seem to t[QUOTE=Rossflyguhink striper have no part of the issue. There are many links, podcasts, and pictures with bellies full of smolt by biologist/fisherman that say striper are invasive and don’t help native salmonoid populations. Striper are far more abundant than everyone is making it out to be. There aren’t as many large stripers BECAUSE salmon population is down so forage (smolt) items aren’t as plentiful and not to mention the population of fisherman targeting striper.. That’s why stripers are showing up in and above Redding. [/QUOTE]

I don't know of anyone who has studied striped bass impact on the Bay/Delta ecosystem as much as Dr. Peter Moyle of UC Davis - not even close. He would refute just about everything you have said except for the impact of our artificial water regime. His studies, spanning over 30 years, show that stripers eat far more salmon predators than they do salmon. Salmon smolts are in and out of striped bass territory in less than a few weeks as they journey to the ocean. Stripers will certainly eat smolts given a chance, but that window of opportunity is quite small. Pikeminnow, hardhead, and black bass, all salmon smolt predators, must contend with striper predation year round. In the big picture, lack of salmon has little to nothing to do with striped bass. Even during outsmolting, stripers eat more non game fish than salmon. This is a scientifically published and peer reviewed fact, disavowed only by the water agencies. Please point me to any scientific evidence which demonstrate that stripers are the cause of the salmon decline.

[mogaru]

y;185207]Pretty sure everyone, including myself, have said dams and water management are the main issue. But you seem to t

I don't know of anyone who has studied striped bass impact on the Bay/Delta ecosystem as much as Dr. Peter Moyle of UC Davis - not even close. He would refute just about everything you have said except for the impact of our artificial water regime. His studies, spanning over 30 years, show that stripers eat far more salmon predators than they do salmon. Salmon smolts are in and out of striped bass territory in less than a few weeks as they journey to the ocean. Stripers will certainly eat smolts given a chance, but that window of opportunity is quite small. Pikeminnow, hardhead, and black bass, all salmon smolt predators, must contend with striper predation year round. In the big picture, lack of salmon has little to nothing to do with striped bass. Even during outsmolting, stripers eat more non game fish than salmon. This is a scientifically published and peer reviewed fact, disavowed only by the water agencies. Please point me to any scientific evidence which demonstrate that stripers are the cause of the salmon decline.

That's absolutely correct. Stripers predation on salmon smolts is seasonal and therefore minimal. The rest of the year they feed on crayfish, bass, shad, smelt etc, etc, and after over a century is California have certainly being "naturalized" and are part of the ecosystem. Of course the water guys have them on their list to demonize and target. Years ago they try to remove the size and limit and now they are being targeted by allowing spearfishing in freshwater.

[Sheepdog8404]

y;185207]Pretty sure everyone, including myself, have said dams and water management are the main issue. But you seem to t

I don't know of anyone who has studied striped bass impact on the Bay/Delta ecosystem as much as Dr. Peter Moyle of UC Davis - not even close. He would refute just about everything you have said except for the impact of our artificial water regime. His studies, spanning over 30 years, show that stripers eat far more salmon predators than they do salmon. Salmon smolts are in and out of striped bass territory in less than a few weeks as they journey to the ocean. Stripers will certainly eat smolts given a chance, but that window of opportunity is quite small. Pikeminnow, hardhead, and black bass, all salmon smolt predators, must contend with striper predation year round. In the big picture, lack of salmon has little to nothing to do with striped bass. Even during outsmolting, stripers eat more non game fish than salmon. This is a scientifically published and peer reviewed fact, disavowed only by the water agencies. Please point me to any scientific evidence which demonstrate that stripers are the cause of the salmon decline.

So what your're saying then, Ralph, is that we really need to be throwing more Pikeminnow, Hardhead and Bass patterns than rainbow/smolt patterns for Stripers??? :confused:

[Ralph]

So what your're saying then, Ralph, is that we really need to be throwing more Pikeminnow, Hardhead and Bass patterns than rainbow/smolt patterns for Stripers??? :confused:

A chartreuse Clouser imitates all of the above. Or none of the above.

[Rossflyguy]

So you agreeing that striper eat smolt pretty much justifies what I said. Striper are invasive and by them eating any smolt hurts the population right off the bat. Even if it’s the few you say it is. I’m also not sure if you have thought about the striper in Sac river, Feather, Yuba, and the American that eat salmon fry and smolt. So only using the delta as an example doesn’t paint the whole picture of the stripers range. I’d like to have the UC Davis person you mentioned talk to DFW and a few other fish biologists about stripers. They have a much different opinion. They’re actually interviewed on the Barbless podcast on iTunes. Lots of information on those podcasts from people who do this for a living. Not to mention guides interviewed on the podcast in Redding who see the effect of stripers as well. If I didn’t see any information that stripers were effecting the salmon population in any way I’d totally agree with you. But I’ve read and listened to information and they definitely do. I’m also not saying they are the main cause BUT they are part of it. Also, the hatchery on the Moke are very successful with large runs the last few years since they been barging the smolt down past kill zones. And that river has a dam. If you’d like the exact podcast last that talk about this I’d gladly send it to you in your PM.

[JCam]

I dont understand the argument, because Stripe Bass only eat smolt when smolt are present they do not hurt salmon populations. If SB diet consists of 10% smolt considering smolt are only available 10% of the time means when smolt are present they are being gorged...

Smolt have to eat to make it back to the ocean. What do juvenile SB eat? Are smolt not competing for much of the same food as juvenile SB?

Dont SB also live in the ocean and are they not preying on smolt their entire journey up the coast?

Last but not least, returning salmon bring valuable nutrients back into the river systems that energizes the food web both SB and smolt.

My 2 Cents, paint a stipe on the sea lions and let the spear fishermen have at it.

[Rossflyguy]

I dont understand the argument, because Stripe Bass only eat smolt when smolt are present they do not hurt salmon populations. If SB diet consists of 10% smolt considering smolt are only available 10% of the time means when smolt are present they are being gorged...

Smolt have to eat to make it back to the ocean. What do juvenile SB eat? Are smolt not competing for much of the same food as juvenile SB?

Dont SB also live in the ocean and are they not preying on smolt their entire journey up the coast?

Last but not least, returning salmon bring valuable nutrients back into the river systems that energizes the food web both SB and smolt.

My 2 Cents, paint a stipe on the sea lions and let the spear fishermen have at it.



Exactly!!!!! I don’t know why people even argue stripers have no impact. They absolutely have an impact. Not only do they eat salmon smolt but they eat steelhead and native trout. I keep hearing “they aren’t the main reason for salmon decline”, no one on this board said that. They are invasive and that’s the bottom line. And if speargun fisherman target large striper legally who cares.

[Darian]

Rossflyguy,.... Not sure, but you might be the only person in Northern California that doesn't know who Dr. Peter Moyle is or hasn't read some of his work or news articles about and by him. He's the guy the other biologists (including those at DFW) go to for his opinions and information. You can find much of his writings at the UC Davis website. Check it out and include his work on predator/prey relationships.

[Rossflyguy]

Rossflyguy,.... Not sure, but you might be the only person in Northern California that doesn't know who Dr. Peter Moyle is or hasn't read some of his work or news articles about and by him. He's the guy the other biologists (including those at DFW) go to for his opinions and information. You can find much of his writings at the UC Davis website. Check it out and include his work on predator/prey relationships.

I’m pretty sure 99.9% of California never heard of him. And not even he can argue against striper eating salmon smolt and competeing with adult salmon in the salt. They are invasive by SCIENTIFIC definition. They are considered invasive by DFW. Thanks for the name drop but that’s the reality. If you can prove they go to him than why did DFW try and lower the take size and up the limit size for striper? Then we’ll go back to who’s paying who to do what for their own benefit. It’s like chasing a ghost. I’m done trying to point the obvious. Until next years rant about speargun fisherman (seems to be one EVERY year) I’m over it for this year.

[Ralph]

I’m pretty sure 99.9% of California never heard of him. And not even he can argue against striper eating salmon smolt and competeing with adult salmon in the salt. They are invasive by SCIENTIFIC definition. They are considered invasive by DFW. Thanks for the name drop but that’s the reality. If you can prove they go to him than why did DFW try and lower the take size and up the limit size for striper? Then we’ll go back to who’s paying who to do what for their own benefit. It’s like chasing a ghost. I’m done trying to point the obvious. Until next years rant about speargun fisherman (seems to be one EVERY year) I’m over it for this year.

Feel free to quote opinions from podcasts and "some guides in Redding", and I'll quote peer-reviewed, scientific papers and journals spanning the past three decades. If you don't even know who Dr. Moyle is, I'll give your level of educated awareness on the subject the consideration it deserves.

[Rossflyguy]

Feel free to quote opinions from podcasts and "some guides in Redding", and I'll quote peer-reviewed, scientific papers and journals spanning the past three decades. If you don't even know who Dr. Moyle is, I'll give your level of educated awareness on the subject the consideration it deserves.

Riiiiight, I’ll let you sit on your high horse and dwell on studies from 30yrs ago?? I’ll listen to “opinions” from educated biologists who study fish population and effects in California. I guess one study trumps many other studies in your book. I’ll give you’re naive personality the consideration it deserves “King”.

Striper eat smolt and that’s the end of it.

[Darian]

Rossflyguy,.... You seem to have approached this discussion with a closed mind. Rather than dismiss Moyles works out of hand, why not read some of his current studies/works. Not all of them were done 30 years ago, altho, that alone doesn't disqualify conclusions/results of those studies from being valid today.

Also, IMO, you've consistently missed the point others have tried to make in this thread that everyone knows that Stripers do eat smolts when available but smolts don't make up the major portion of their diets over the course of a year.

So, hopefully you will try to include some of Moyles works in your reading to your list.

[Rossflyguy]

Rossflyguy,.... You seem to have approached this discussion with a closed mind. Rather than dismiss Moyles works out of hand, why not read some of his current studies/works. Not all of them were done 30 years ago, altho, that alone doesn't disqualify conclusions/results of those studies from being valid today.

Also, IMO, you've consistently missed the point others have tried to make in this thread that everyone knows that Stripers do eat smolts when available but smolts don't make up the major portion of their diets over the course of a year.

So, hopefully you will try to include some of Moyles works in your reading to your list.

Darian, I think you’ve missed the point others and myself have made. They do eat native smolt, alvine, trout, and steelhead. They aren’t native and are considered invasive BY SCIENTIFIC definition. I didn’t make up the definition myself if that what you think. If you wanna include other native fish that are natural predators to smolt that eaten by striper, that only solidifies my point about striper being invasive. I’m not sure how else I can point it out any clearer. If you wanna read information by one study and base it on that go for it. I usually like to get info from many studies.

Have a good weekend.

[Darian]

OK, I get it. Nice troll to keep this thread going. ;)

[lee s.]

Hmmmm,
Are WE invasive too?
....lee s.
(Scientifically speaking of course.)

[Rob Russell Fly Fishing]

Definitely invasive Lee, or Im an alien. Thank goodness not all of us are offensive.
Is spear fishing legal in Putah Creek?

[JCam]

edit: to many trolls to be worth the effort

[winxp_man]

OK, I get it. Nice troll to keep this thread going. ;)

Well put post Darian! ;) never looked at it like you but seems true hahaha!

[winxp_man]

And again I say screw the spear a-holes!!!! This is why I say stop spear fishing I’m freaking clear water!


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=702630493410779&id=402747210065777

[JCam]

And again I say screw the spear a-holes!!!! This is why I say stop spear fishing I’m freaking clear water!


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=702630493410779&id=402747210065777


Out of curiosity, if a fly fisherman happened to poach two fish, would you be consistent and advocate for the stopping of fly fishing on those waters?

I believe spear fishing for sturgeon is already illegal.

[winxp_man]

Out of curiosity, if a fly fisherman happened to poach two fish, would you be consistent and advocate for the stopping of fly fishing on those waters?

I believe spear fishing for sturgeon is already illegal.


If it happened on a regular. But the last time a fly guy was poaching..... don’t recall it! And again this is spearfishing in clear water! I guess the damn ocean is not big enough! And let me guess you must me crying for leader length reduction to. I guess it’s too damn tough for gear and spear guys out there.

[Rossflyguy]

If it happened on a regular. But the last time a fly guy was poaching..... don’t recall it! And again this is spearfishing in clear water! I guess the damn ocean is not big enough! And let me guess you must me crying for leader length reduction to. I guess it’s too damn tough for gear and spear guys out there.

Why would a fly guy cry for leader length reduction when it doesn’t apply to fly fishing? Lots of fly guys poach. See it all the time when fish are on redds. Intentionally snagging big fish. What’s wrong with fishing conventional?

[JCam]

If it happened on a regular. But the last time a fly guy was poaching..... don’t recall it! And again this is spearfishing in clear water! I guess the damn ocean is not big enough! And let me guess you must me crying for leader length reduction to. I guess it’s too damn tough for gear and spear guys out there.


Nahh I leave the banning to the whambulance drivers.
Interesting to lean that you believe you have omniscience over who and how individuals poach.

[JCam]

If it happened on a regular. But the last time a fly guy was poaching..... don’t recall it! And again this is spearfishing in clear water! I guess the damn ocean is not big enough! And let me guess you must me crying for leader length reduction to. I guess it’s too damn tough for gear and spear guys out there.


Nahh I am not much into banning or crying I leave that to you whambulance drivers.
Interesting to lean that you believe you have omniscience over who and how individuals poach.

[winxp_man]

Nahh I leave the banning to the whambulance drivers.
Interesting to lean that you believe you have omniscience over who and how individuals poach.

If you only knew a thing or two about poaching or poachers.

And leaving banning to cry babies I guess is what people that don’t give a crap say. Tell that to the sturgeon in the danube river over in Europe. There is a ban on catching or fishing for any. The part I can say you are right about it that even laws don’t keep assholes from poaching! Point about banning spear guys is simple, keep them from showing up in waters where there are year around fish illegal to take by spear fishing. Again I guess the ocean is not big enough.

I have personally seen fishing and wild life cases in court. And they don’t even care! If they did they would not just put a slap on the hand to offenders less people would be doing it. One case I know of is a sturgeon poacher that got a lifetime ban on fishing! I guess some don’t understand that fishing is a privilege not a right. If it where free for all there would be nothing left.

And one would say how do I say such things..... well simple; all of the papers from the past that I have dug up shows what over fishing does. From commercial down to the small time fisherman.

So by your opinions let’s let them have access to spear on a regular. What difference does it make. No big deal there are millions of fish. Nothing to worry about. Science is simple and it shows that we are jacking up quite a bit!

[Rossflyguy]

If you only knew a thing or two about poaching or poachers.

And leaving banning to cry babies I guess is what people that don’t give a crap say. Tell that to the sturgeon in the danube river over in Europe. There is a ban on catching or fishing for any. The part I can say you are right about it that even laws don’t keep assholes from poaching! Point about banning spear guys is simple, keep them from showing up in waters where there are year around fish illegal to take by spear fishing. Again I guess the ocean is not big enough.

I have personally seen fishing and wild life cases in court. And they don’t even care! If they did they would not just put a slap on the hand to offenders less people would be doing it. One case I know of is a sturgeon poacher that got a lifetime ban on fishing! I guess some don’t understand that fishing is a privilege not a right. If it where free for all there would be nothing left.

And one would say how do I say such things..... well simple; all of the papers from the past that I have dug up shows what over fishing does. From commercial down to the small time fisherman.

So by your opinions let’s let them have access to spear on a regular. What difference does it make. No big deal there are millions of fish. Nothing to worry about. Science is simple and it shows that we are jacking up quite a bit!


Well, follow your own preaching first and stop fishing. I’m sure fish you’ve released died not too long after the release. Lead by example instead of telling everyone else what to do.

[JCam]

If you only knew a thing or two about poaching or poachers.

And leaving banning to cry babies I guess is what people that don’t give a crap say. Tell that to the sturgeon in the danube river over in Europe. There is a ban on catching or fishing for any. The part I can say you are right about it that even laws don’t keep assholes from poaching! Point about banning spear guys is simple, keep them from showing up in waters where there are year around fish illegal to take by spear fishing. Again I guess the ocean is not big enough.

I have personally seen fishing and wild life cases in court. And they don’t even care! If they did they would not just put a slap on the hand to offenders less people would be doing it. One case I know of is a sturgeon poacher that got a lifetime ban on fishing! I guess some don’t understand that fishing is a privilege not a right. If it where free for all there would be nothing left.

And one would say how do I say such things..... well simple; all of the papers from the past that I have dug up shows what over fishing does. From commercial down to the small time fisherman.

So by your opinions let’s let them have access to spear on a regular. What difference does it make. No big deal there are millions of fish. Nothing to worry about. Science is simple and it shows that we are jacking up quite a bit!

So you argument is that because they don't enforce the old laws, we need more new laws?

[winxp_man]

Well, follow your own preaching first and stop fishing. I’m sure fish you’ve released died not too long after the release. Lead by example instead of telling everyone else what to do.

I don’t need to talk about my own fishing ethics. Others can speak for me and a few members on this forum. I heard a couple of friends even find is funny how fast I reel in a fish. I can tell you with the up most certainty that I have not released fish and had them die. But nice try. ;)

[winxp_man]

So you argument is that because they don't enforce the old laws, we need more new laws?

The fact that it’s open to spear guys makes it a liability for temptation! And a spear guy in clear water will take down fish with a way higher success rate over gear guy. I wonder how many that we dont know are taken? Thus you end up with what you see in the link I posted. And once again is the ocean not big enough for spear guys? The need to basically hunt in a aquarium sized CLEAR river is that big of a must?

[EricO]

Whew....rough thread.

Think I'm gonna go roll one up. :)

[JCam]

Whew....rough thread.

Think I'm gonna go roll one up. :)

Be careful someone might advocate banning it.

[JCam]

The fact that it’s open to spear guys makes it a liability for temptation! And a spear guy in clear water will take down fish with a way higher success rate over gear guy. I wonder how many that we dont know are taken? Thus you end up with what you see in the link I posted. And once again is the ocean not big enough for spear guys? The need to basically hunt in a aquarium sized CLEAR river is that big of a must?

I am not sure why you capitalized clear.... Do you want people shooting spears in opaque water :confused:?
Slow down and listen to your reasoning. You claim you know what happens as if you are an expert then you say you dont know how many are taken. Maybe, just maybe you should stop advocating banning things you are so openly ignorant of.

[JasonB]

I do believe this lil piece of water has been flogged to to point of absurdity. Perhaps it’s time to just let it rest a bit?

[Rossflyguy]

I don’t need to talk about my own fishing ethics. Others can speak for me and a few members on this forum. I heard a couple of friends even find is funny how fast I reel in a fish. I can tell you with the up most certainty that I have not released fish and had them die. But nice try. ;)

So I’m to believe every fish you’ve ever released didn’t die? I guess you keep in touch with all your fish? Wonder what type of service fish use to contact you? And what credentials do others and people on this forum have to make me believe your ethics and fish releasing abilities are “legendary”? The way you criticize people makes me think very little of your ethics. You need to come off your high horse. You’re a legend in your own mind.

[STEELIES/26c3]

I do believe this lil piece of water has been flogged to to point of absurdity. Perhaps it’s time to just let it rest a bit?


He be a dirty flosser
a steelie double crosser
that dude there fishin water that's clear
ought to get the hell outa here
go downtown where the water be brown
like the governor who wants to sell it
down, down, down the river
and the fish don't stand a chance
down, down, down the river
As the takers all advance
sticky, stinky stan be baitin' up his hook
and fly guys with polarized eyes give him their dirty looks
as they wade the redds, I scratch my head and the spawning fish disperse
This urban fishery it seems is oh so badly cursed
Skagit Sam and Scandi Stan lookin' down their noses
at the single handed, nasty nymphin', indi-bobber-bozos
Dry fly purist Paul he skates his big 'Skawally'
and damn you using sink tips man, at least attach a poly!
We all disgrace ourselves somehow... and this river we've been given
and yet, together, here we are by its unifying force we're driven
down, down, down the river
and the fish don't stand a chance
down, down, down the river
As the takers all advance

ME
TONIGHT ;)

[Rossflyguy]

He be a dirty flosser
a steelie double crosser
that dude there fishin water that's clear
ought to get the hell outa here
go downtown where the water be brown
like the governor who wants to sell it
down, down, down the river
and the fish don't stand a chance
down, down, down the river
As the takers all advance
sticky, stinky stan be baitin' up his hook
and fly guys with polarized eyes give him their dirty looks
as they wade the redds, I scratch my head and the spawning fish disperse
This urban fishery it seems is oh so badly cursed
Skagit Sam and Scandi Stan lookin' down their noses
at the single handed, nasty nymphin', indi-bobber-bozos
Dry fly purist Paul he skates his big 'Skawally'
and damn you using sink tips man, at least attach a poly!
We all disgrace ourselves somehow... and this river we've been given
and yet, together, here we are by its unifying force we're driven
down, down, down the river
and the fish don't stand a chance
down, down, down the river
As the takers all advance

ME
TONIGHT ;)


Well said.

[winxp_man]

So I’m to believe every fish you’ve ever released didn’t die? I guess you keep in touch with all your fish? Wonder what type of service fish use to contact you? And what credentials do others and people on this forum have to make me believe your ethics and fish releasing abilities are “legendary”? The way you criticize people makes me think very little of your ethics. You need to come off your high horse. You’re a legend in your own mind.

Rossman I guess you must not know about fish handling much. I even net bass if I'm not wading.

But whatever floats your boat bud. You have your mind made up that striper are a big enough cause to the low salmon and steelhead numbers. So a person with no fact links posted should not be talkin in my opinion. Its how this whole subject got started. You come on this forum with what seems your hate for stripers and bluntly show it to everyone. And that is fine but without facts to back it up it does not make one bit of difference what your opinion is.


The people that created this state back in 1850 knew they had a problem with fish numbers by 1870 its one of the reasons why hatcheries where even commissioned. Also there was so much knowledge (from the late 1800's even!) that with out a fish bypass above the dams that have been built back then, the fish numbers will go down! This was before stripers where even a dam thing. I f you truly want to read about all of this I can make a away for anyone to get a hold of all the reading material. FACT is the minute dams and commercial fishing started numbers of salmon/steelhead would be screwed! Here is another fun fact. The bull trout died off and are gone from the mccloud river for ever...… Not a single damn striper was involved.


You Rossfly would make a very bad detective...… Again let me know if you want info on facts. Would not mind sharing it, but I do mind if I waste my time.



As posted above me, NO ONE IS SAYING stripers don't have some sort of effect! The POINT is stripers have as much effect as sport fishermen (non poachers).

In the end hey lets kill off all the stripers..... this way the people with a clear view of what is going on can tell the ones blaming stripers...….We told you its not it!

I even mentioned to one of the anti striper guys on here to look at Canada and its fish problems with no stripers in the area to make the problems and even less dams!!!!!!!!! But this type of info is over looked because once again it does not fit and agenda of some sort.

[winxp_man]

I am not sure why you capitalized clear.... Do you want people shooting spears in opaque water :confused:?



I guess comprehension is not a thing any longer. The POINT was based off the aquarium sized river! Have you ever fished the yuba? And to add on top that when you dive fish are not as freaked out? I know because I have dove around fish populations....

So lets simplify it...…. Aquarium Size + Clear river + Fish that are not that afraid...… Should I write out the sum for you??? :confused:

[Rossflyguy]

Rossman I guess you must not know about fish handling much. I even net bass if I'm not wading.

But whatever floats your boat bud. You have your mind made up that striper are a big enough cause to the low salmon and steelhead numbers. So a person with no fact links posted should not be talkin in my opinion. Its how this whole subject got started. You come on this forum with what seems your hate for stripers and bluntly show it to everyone. And that is fine but without facts to back it up it does not make one bit of difference what your opinion is.


The people that created this state back in 1850 knew they had a problem with fish numbers by 1870 its one of the reasons why hatcheries where even commissioned. Also there was so much knowledge (from the late 1800's even!) that with out a fish bypass above the dams that have been built back then, the fish numbers will go down! This was before stripers where even a dam thing. I f you truly want to read about all of this I can make a away for anyone to get a hold of all the reading material. FACT is the minute dams and commercial fishing started numbers of salmon/steelhead would be screwed! Here is another fun fact. The bull trout died off and are gone from the mccloud river for ever...… Not a single damn striper was involved.


You Rossfly would make a very bad detective...… Again let me know if you want info on facts. Would not mind sharing it, but I do mind if I waste my time.



As posted above me, NO ONE IS SAYING stripers don't have some sort of effect! The POINT is stripers have as much effect as sport fishermen (non poachers).

In the end hey lets kill off all the stripers..... this way the people with a clear view of what is going on can tell the ones blaming stripers...….We told you its not it!

I even mentioned to one of the anti striper guys on here to look at Canada and its fish problems with no stripers in the area to make the problems and even less dams!!!!!!!!! But this type of info is over looked because once again it does not fit and agenda of some sort.

Glad you’re putting words in my mouth. Guess you haven’t read anything I’ve said about my opinion on striper and just cherry pick phrases as you skim through it. When I offered proof of what I’ve been saying you guys focus on “stripers aren’t the only cause” and quote ONE scientists results where as I can link several. If you base your facts on “they aren’t causing salmon decline” than you haven’t heard anything I’ve said because I never said that. Especially if you’re going to talk about hatcheries and fish ladders in the 1800’s when California didn’t start building dams until the mid 1900’s. All your “facts” don’t justify that striper still eat smolt. As much as you stomp your feet they eat smolt. Just seems like you’re googling facts and posting them on this forum just to see if someone will jump on your band wagon. You even went as far as to bring up the extinction of bull trout. Lol, that has nothing to do with salmon and striper relationships. Just stop man, you’re not gonna win this when we all know they eat smolt. This has gone on too long for such an obvious thing.

[STEELIES/26c3]

I'm a long time striper guy and also a serious steelhead and salmon angler with a very deep love and healthy respect for our delicate American River fisheries...

I know tons of anglers from the over nearly 30 years I have fished the river on a regular and often daily basis...

I have VERY FEW fishing friends with whom I readily and openly fish and openly share reports and information. This is primarily for the greater good of the fisheries and ecosystem/s at large and secondarily for my selfish reasons.

Aron (WINXPMAN) is one of the exceptional few, I hold no secrets from. Over the 10 or so years I've known him, he has continuously and constantly demonstrated an absolute respect and selfless love for our river and the fish and other creatures therein.

I selectively harvest my fair share of schoolie-sized stripers, as well as salmon and steelhead for the dinner table.

Aron has a zero limit philosophy but beyond that, he also takes the time to research, to know the issues, to refrain from bragging about his skills as an angler or say/do anything that would compromise the well being of the river.

This year, I caught and released a 48 inch striper in a certain, favorite run of mine. I told Aron the whole story and the next day, he sent me a photo of HIS (different) 48 inch striper. It could very well have been an IGFA, fly-caught record on our river but his priority was a fast photo, revive and release.

Yes, stripers eat salmonid smolts but the science (and my 60,000 hours on the AR, fishing and studying its ecosystems) suggest that it pales in comparison to so many other human-caused and biological factors which affect salmonid mortality.

The above issues have been beaten like a dead horse (why would you beat a horse that's already dead anyway???) alas, I have refrained from comment.

My biggest problem with the mindset that 'stripers are the enemy' and need to be eradicated... is that buying into it blinds so many to the real issue of maintaining sustainable flow regimes in our rivers which in turn, keeps our bay and delta saline-balanced and allows for the perpetual ebb and flow of anadromous fish species between our state's headwaters and the Pacific Ocean.

It will be a sad day if those tunnels are constructed and the power of the people to have a voice and a stake in the management of our public trust resources goes to the wayside.

Stripers, our now a part of the life history of California and as such, deserve protection. As has been noted ad infinitum... they lived in harmonious balance with salmon and other species for well over 100 years.

If we eradicated all game fish not non-native to California, there would be very few species to fish for...

We ought make the balanced best of what we have and spearfishing, though likely will not ever completelty wipe out the striper population, just does not seem a good fit for a multi-use recreational area where folks fish, snorkel, raft, kayak and swim. Additionally, it isn't very sporting to stalk- with a high-powered, lethal weapon -a large, slow moving fish which will swim up to you and eat a crawdad out of your hand.

You'll see me on the river... unless I see you first ;)

[leicafish]

This has been a painful read at times mainly because it is clear to me that vilifying the striper as a major cause in the decline of salmon is a strategy that is working for the big water users south of the Delta. As we as fishermen argue about whose fish is eating what, they suck away more water so they can sell nuts overseas. If you drive down I5 you can see them planting on the west side in the foothills now. I love the the propaganda on the freeway: Signs reading "Where water flows food grows" It should read "where water flows money grows" or "where money flows water goes"

This is a nice article from the Bee summarizing what's going on. Peter Moyle and other biologists are quoted in it.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/environment/article76228187.html

Fishermen of all types and other users of the environment need to come together to fight for more water for all our fisheries instead of falling prey to their propaganda. For those of you who don't know, Kevin McCarthy from Bakersfield might very well become speaker of the House next year when Paul Ryan retires. We're in trouble then....

[ycflyfisher]

I looked up the regs for spearfishing on the American. It is legal from May 1 to Sept 15 only a mile downstream from Arden. The stretch upstream to the dam is closed to spearfishing. So to Bryan's original question it appears that the shooter was legal if the fish was shot at Watt. If anyone sees someone spearfishing above "a mile below Arden" then they ought to call the warden or ranger. The other stuff related to transport etc is less clear to me.

Why not try and get the regulations changed? It's not written in stone and obviously a bunch of spear fisherman snookered us a few years ago by getting this through the FGC. There would be a lot in favor of banning spearfishing for stripers. 1) Safety. Spearfishing season on the A is also rafting season on the A. Spearguns and rafts are a bad mix. Great visual there. 2) The rule is inconsistent with other regs. There are no other gamefish allowed to be speared in inland waters. 3) Perhaps most importantly there must be a ton more fisherman(and not just fly fisherman) that would favor a ban on spearfishing stripers than there are those in favor. Think the next FGC regs review cycle is 2019.

Gary

Respectfully, I don't see this as a viable argument, let alone one that could gain traction with the FGC. First matters of public safety fall outside the scope of the FRC (to make regulatory decisions in regards to fisheries and ecosystem management). And until you have recorded incidents of spearfisherman endangering the public, you have nothing regardless of how strong a visual you may think it presents.


I think you'd be hard pressed to convince members of this very forum, let alone the general public, that the potential public safety threat to rafters from spearfishers is somehow more significant than it would be from flyanglers who are whipsawing 2/0 flies on 90+ feet of leadcore and flyline around.

I have no doubt that you'd have no trouble finding a large group of both fly and gear anglers that would like to see spearing on the American banned. Likewise, you'd have no trouble finding a large contingent of gear anglers that are against the fly only designated section on the Trinity. Would you also argue they should proceed with that?

You're new here, but as you've probably gathered from comments from others, this isn't a new discussion to this forum. It's one Tony has forced on this forum over, and over, and over, and over, AND OVER, ad infinitum. The notion that spearfishers that likely number in the dozens, over a truncated season on a small designated section of the American River( probably less than 0.001 percent of all available striper habitat in the Sac-SJ ecosystem) ARE DEFINITELY going to have a measurable, and terminal effect on recruitment is nothing short of bizarre. The average 'party boat' probably has more of an impact in a month than the spearfishers do in an entire season.

What's really going on here is knee-jerk levels of pure emotion and IMO an untenable position to deny an entire group of anglers access because their methods are not approved of.


If you're really considering expending the effort, I really think you need to ask yourself if your rationalizations are defensible and if the impact 'concern' is really a legit concern.

[ycflyfisher]

I dont understand the argument, because Stripe Bass only eat smolt when smolt are present they do not hurt salmon populations. If SB diet consists of 10% smolt considering smolt are only available 10% of the time means when smolt are present they are being gorged...

Smolt have to eat to make it back to the ocean. What do juvenile SB eat? Are smolt not competing for much of the same food as juvenile SB?

Dont SB also live in the ocean and are they not preying on smolt their entire journey up the coast?

Last but not least, returning salmon bring valuable nutrients back into the river systems that energizes the food web both SB and smolt.

My 2 Cents, paint a stipe on the sea lions and let the spear fishermen have at it.

I would think that interspecies comp between SBs and premigrant/ smolting Chinooks is minimal.

First you've got a large degree of spatial separation between habitats typically utilized by developing juvie Chinooks and larval SBs. There's undoubtedly some overlap, but where that occurs, it's more than likely marginal habitat for both species.

Second, you've got differing temporal development rates- by the time the first larval SBs are spawned, Chinooks are typically in excess of 75mm FL and aren't limited to zoo and phytoplankton. By the time those larval SBs are nearing the end of their 1st year of life, they're~ twice the size of Chinooks. Likely some overlap in exploited food resources, but again over a fairly short outmigration window. By the end of their 2nd year of life I'd think the majority of the interspecies impact results from predation.


The predation potential of SBs on Chinooks definitely doesn't end once the salmon hit the salt, but to my knowledge, little to no effort has been made to determine this impact.


I think this is still an excellent question because this aspect of comp is ignored in totality by the linesides contingent on this forum. Interspecies comp between age 1- SBs and age 1- Delta Smelt ( a native listed species on the doorstep to extirpation) and age 1- LF Smelt (which would be listed if it didn't exist in places outside the Sac-SJ Delta) has the potential to be more significant.

[ycflyfisher]

I've read about 6 of the most recent predation studies and (there's a LOT more than that out there) and it's difficult for me to draw any definitive conclusions about how severe the SB impact to Chinooks really is. It's something that simply cannot be reduced to a 'net sum' linear relationship as SBs are opportunistic and prey everything native and non-native species alike. Many of those non-native species not only are also potential predators of Chinooks and other natives, but are likely driving other non-beneficial interactions with pelagic natives.

The reality as I see it is if SBs were significantly less abundant there would be some release on Chinooks and other natives, but there would also be meso-predator release amongst the numerous non-native species SBs also prey upon and potentially limit. Would the net result have a positive impact? I'm skeptical.

The Delta and it's tribs is a geomorphically manipulated ecosystem that's described in peer reviewed science as being more 'like Clear Lake' than an alluvial floodplain. The number of non-native/ invasives outnumber the native species by factors of hundreds of percent. In terms of total biomass, that factor becomes thousands, not hundreds. There aren't any easy or obvious solutions.

Predation is a very complex multispecies interaction that seems to be very difficult to study. The predator density manipulation studies suggest to a degree that predator density doesn't seem to matter in terms of net predation and that location (bottlenecks and predator hotspots) is what drives predation events.


Yet some of the watershed specific studies show that predation hotspots move based on conditions. And can vary wildly from seasons to season.

Some of the confidence intervals ( SBs could be consuming 0-12 grams of D. Smelt per bass per year) don't inspire much confidence. At 0 grams, you have no problem, at 12, you have no smelt.


It's not that the science is bad or deficient, but the conclusions some of that science draws isn't as helpful as it could be in terms of helping manage fisheries or ecosystems.

[JCam]

/yawn.
Where you always this ill-bred or does the internet bring it out in you?

[JCam]

Invasive species that eat salmon and low water level can both negatively effect salmon populations. It is not an either or. The argument should be made that because invasive species are already stressing native populations even more water should be conserved for the fisheries....

[ycflyfisher]

/yawn.
Where you always this ill-bred or does the internet bring it out in you?

I always love these childish responses that shed NO light where the disagreement lies. Clearly you don't agree with some or all of what I said. I don't have a crystal ball so let's recap.


You asked the following questions:




What do juvenile SB eat?

Are smolt not competing for much of the same food as juvenile SB?

Dont SB also live in the ocean and are they not preying on smolt their entire journey up the coast?



I answered your questions, taking the time to do so in some detail. What specifically is it that I said that you don't agree with?

[ycflyfisher]

Invasive species that eat salmon and low water level can both negatively effect salmon populations. It is not an either or.

What does that have to do with anything I've stated in this thread? By 'low water level' I can only assume you actual mean diversion. Where in this thread or my entire posting history on this forum have I ever stated anything that would possibly lead you to believe that I've ever downplayed the effects of either predation on native species by non-native species or the impacts of diversion?

I'd suggest you go back and read some of the prior discussions on this forum on those subjects to get an idea of my actual opinion on predation by SBs and diversion. The one of which is here, post #6:

http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?30178-Feast-or-Salmon&p=132410#post132410

As far as predation of Chinook by Striped Bass it IS an 'either or' whether you elect to believe that or not, and that applies even if it was known with certainty that that SB are collectively consuming 10+ miilion Chinook smolts annually.


You want some facts, here's some more, all referenced to peer-reviewed science that forms my opinion:


There are a total of 17 native fish species that are still extant in the Sac-SJ delta and its tribs. There are 31 non-native fish species in said ecosystem. (Grossman 2016)


Of those 48 species there are 8 that are confirmed definitive predators of smolting Chinook salmon. (Grossman 2016, Moyle 2003).

There's several others that are known to be piscivorous on fish up to the size of smolting Chinooks. (Grossman 2013 and 2016)

That doesn't even include all the fish known to consume pre-smolting Chinooks (eggs, larval and free swimming fry). Keep in mind predation from these fish impact natural (not hatchery) Chinooks exclusively.

Striped Bass are generalist predators that have been documented to be predators of all of those fish species. (Grossman 2016 and dozens of various other sources).

They also are known to consume virtually every other fish species that don't or physically cannot prey on Chinooks that could have a detrimental impact on Chinooks via interspecies competition. I.e. -That thing you mentioned that isn't just limited to comp for food resources but numerous other factors like comp for optimal developing habitat, displacement from optimal predator evasion habitat and a myriad of other factors. All of that stuff factors into the equation.


As previously stated if SBs were to become less abundant either via natural course of action or by deliberate efforts, predator control or abatement on SBs , I'd expect some release and you have the potential to put more smolts in the salt. Call that number X.


But you also run the risk of increased loss of production by an increase in the impact on Chinooks from the totality of ALL the species SB are potentially limiting. Call that number Y. If X minus Y is not a positive number attempting to control Striped Bass abundance has a net negative result on Chinooks that live long enough to hit the salt.

How is it exactly that you seem to be so certain that this cannot be an 'either or'?


You also said: 'The argument should be made that because invasive species are already stressing native populations even more water should be conserved for the fisheries....'


That's a silly and untenable argument. Decisions and factors that limit or alter the schedule of diversion are made at the court level by judges that possess expertise in both water law and the State and Fed ESA. There never has been and never will be a decision made that impacts or reduces diversion without accompanying peer reviewed science that indicates that said diversion is negatively impacting a listed species that is protected under the respective ESA.