Lots of information about the Klamath River.........

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

https://www.hcn.org/issues/50.10/tribal-affairs-how-the-yurok-tribe-is-reclaiming-the-klamath-river?utm_source=wcn1&utm_medium=email

[JayDubP]

On one hand it is great to see that the tribe(s) are staffed to fight for the fish and the river in court. On the other hand, I am not in favor of gill netting by anyone. Natives have the right to fish as their ancestors fished, but that means fish for food for themselves and for the tribe. The more organized groups that fight for the river, the better.

I do not see how allowing Natives the right to sell spawning fish commercially is in line with historical rights-- or in the best interests of the river.

Years ago I flew into the Hoopa airport and met two guys who said they were Natives, but looked more like Hells Angels. They were loading boxes of salmon and steelhead into a $500,000 airplane that was set up for maximum cargo space. They said they made the flight daily during fish season and the rest of the year they flew "agricultural" crops.

[winxp_man]

On one hand it is great to see that the tribe(s) are staffed to fight for the fish and the river in court. On the other hand, I am not in favor of gill netting by anyone. Natives have the right to fish as their ancestors fished, but that means fish for food for themselves and for the tribe. The more organized groups that fight for the river, the better.

I do not see how allowing Natives the right to sell spawning fish commercially is in line with historical rights-- or in the best interests of the river.

Years ago I flew into the Hoopa airport and met two guys who said they were Natives, but looked more like Hells Angels. They were loading boxes of salmon and steelhead into a $500,000 airplane that was set up for maximum cargo space. They said they made the flight daily during fish season and the rest of the year they flew "agricultural" crops.


Agreed and it’s what I tell people!! ;)

[Bob Smith]

I used to think the same about tribal commercial fisheries and gill nets but after living and fishing here in the watershed for over 25 years, I'm okay with it. No one should underestimate the Yurok and Hoopa (and Karuk) Tribe's ability to utilize the legal system to shake things up. They are quite frankly the reason we even have adequate flows on the Klamath and Trinity. The tribes are our most powerful ally and the more fish for produced in the Klamath, the better it is for all of us. The Judge Boldt decision guaranteed 50% of the harvestable surplus to treaty tribes so they have a right to the fish whether we like it or not.

I once chatted with a Yurok who was fishing next to me using rod and reel (actually had 6 lines out) for Klamath springers. He said his ancestors were always striving to use the most modern techniques to improve quality of life and survive ie bow and arrow were traded for firearms etc. I think the same can be said for all of us...

[Darian]

Agreed, Bob.... :cool:

[winxp_man]

I used to think the same about tribal commercial fisheries and gill nets but after living and fishing here in the watershed for over 25 years, I'm okay with it. No one should underestimate the Yurok and Hoopa (and Karuk) Tribe's ability to utilize the legal system to shake things up. They are quite frankly the reason we even have adequate flows on the Klamath and Trinity. The tribes are our most powerful ally and the more fish for produced in the Klamath, the better it is for all of us. The Judge Boldt decision guaranteed 50% of the harvestable surplus to treaty tribes so they have a right to the fish whether we like it or not.

I once chatted with a Yurok who was fishing next to me using rod and reel (actually had 6 lines out) for Klamath springers. He said his ancestors were always striving to use the most modern techniques to improve quality of life and survive ie bow and arrow were traded for firearms etc. I think the same can be said for all of us...


It’s not about the system used! It’s about the fact that they are allowed to harvest and sell at a high rate. I can post plenty of articles where hundreds of pound of clean meat was being sold on the restaurant market illegally. After their quota of allowed netted fish. I know of this myself first hand.

The other issue is why should a group of people have the say a greater allowance at a natural resource then other groups?? Are we living in the damn past or present day??? Because on this not I can probably go back into my past, and find some damn injustice done to the great great great grandfathers/mothers and call for fairness in the modern world.

World is not a damn fair place! It’s how I was taught! And nature also very distinctly shows is the same! So again to Harvey for themselves Is some one fine.

A small story back in 2013 late summer. So one morning my brother and I came across a bunch of dead salmon. A rough estimate of 300-400 fish. Come to find out one of the boats tipped over because of over harvest for the boat size. The fish that where floating everywhere where also not counted towards the quota of harvest. Same trip my brother and I ran into a native fishermen. He was disgusted by what he was seeing going on at the opening of the Klamath. And told me it’s not how he was raised! I wish I would have done a video interview on this person. Because not many believe me. But I heard what I posted.

Fact is everything is for money. Some still fight the good fight but soon they will be gone. And in all this some stil have the guts to make statements that he ocean will always provide. Sorry but fact is there is a decline overall in fish. And one day we will be saying the same words that the old men in Rivers of a Lost Coast did. We never thought this was possible to wipe them all out. Reminds be of me of some of the fishermen I ran into Alaska last year. Their saying is..... there are millions, millions of fish. Well is that an excuse to over fish just because there are millions? I wouldn’t think so! And on a last note.... the natives of the past the tribes would take what they needed. There are records though where some tribes would sabotage wildlife so another tribe during their tribal wars.

I guess to each their own, and whatever makes the boat float. ;)

PS sorry for any mistypes. I’m on a phone writing this haha...

[STEELIES/26c3]

Sadly, we have become an apologist society which makes political and resource management decisions based neither on science nor truth... That said, without the coastal tribes involvement, the Klamath salmon would be in a world of hurt because the government does not give a shit about our fisheries and the Indians keep them semi-honest.. Even IF it's for all the wrong reasons...
Whenever I attend a meeting, a protest, a rally for a water/resource issue... the native elders are there... and many of my Caucasian, Asian, AA, Latino... fishing buddies are not...
I'm split on the issue of tribal rights. My father and his brothers were 1/8 Choctaw and grew up on a reservation in Oklahoma. They were on the registry of the Great Choctaw Indian Nation and as such were eligible for benefits but my dad was way to proud to accept handouts from the government and that is how I was raised.
I think in theory, it is good that the Native Americans who rely on salmon for sustenance be allotted some special consideration but they need to also make some concessions to honor the resource they claim is so vital to their existence...

[STEELIES/26c3]

c'mon don't you use a speak and spell?

[STEELIES/26c3]

It’s not about the system used! It’s about the fact that they are allowed to harvest and sell at a high rate. I can post plenty of articles where hundreds of pound of clean meat was being sold on the restaurant market illegally. After their quota of allowed netted fish. I know of this myself first hand.

The other issue is why should a group of people have the say a greater allowance at a natural resource then other groups?? Are we living in the damn past or present day??? Because on this not I can probably go back into my past, and find some damn injustice done to the great great great grandfathers/mothers and call for fairness in the modern world.

World is not a damn fair place! It’s how I was taught! And nature also very distinctly shows is the same! So again to Harvey for themselves Is some one fine.

A small story back in 2013 late summer. So one morning my brother and I came across a bunch of dead salmon. A rough estimate of 300-400 fish. Come to find out one of the boats tipped over because of over harvest for the boat size. The fish that where floating everywhere where also not counted towards the quota of harvest. Same trip my brother and I ran into a native fishermen. He was disgusted by what he was seeing going on at the opening of the Klamath. And told me it’s not how he was raised! I wish I would have done a video interview on this person. Because not many believe me. But I heard what I posted.

Fact is everything is for money. Some still fight the good fight but soon they will be gone. And in all this some stil have the guts to make statements that he ocean will always provide. Sorry but fact is there is a decline overall in fish. And one day we will be saying the same words that the old men in Rivers of a Lost Coast did. We never thought this was possible to wipe them all out. Reminds be of me of some of the fishermen I ran into Alaska last year. Their saying is..... there are millions, millions of fish. Well is that an excuse to over fish just because there are millions? I wouldn’t think so! And on a last note.... the natives of the past the tribes would take what they needed. There are records though where some tribes would sabotage wildlife so another tribe during their tribal wars.

I guess to each their own, and whatever makes the boat float. ;)

PS sorry for any mistypes. I’m on a phone writing this haha...

C'mon don't you use a speak and spell?

[winxp_man]

c'mon don't you use a speak and spell?

Hahaha..... I don’t really use what feature. I will correct some of the writing tomorrow. And I’m of the same principal Steelie...!

[JasonB]

Sadly, we have become an apologist society which makes political and resource management decisions based neither on science nor truth... That said, without the coastal tribes involvement, the Klamath salmon would be in a world of hurt because the government does not give a shit about our fisheries and the Indians keep them semi-honest.. Even IF it's for all the wrong reasons...
Whenever I attend a meeting, a protest, a rally for a water/resource issue... the native elders are there... and many of my Caucasian, Asian, AA, Latino... fishing buddies are not...
I'm split on the issue of tribal rights. My father and his brothers were 1/8 Choctaw and grew up on a reservation in Oklahoma. They were on the registry of the Great Choctaw Indian Nation and as such were eligible for benefits but my dad was way to proud to accept handouts from the government and that is how I was raised.
I think in theory, it is good that the Native Americans who rely on salmon for sustenance be allotted some special consideration but they need to also make some concessions to honor the resource they claim is so vital to their existence...

I think you have hit it about right with your last comment. I do think overall we have a pretty abysmal record of keeping our promises to the tribes, and that does affect context of current political decisions. I was raised to not make promises easily, and to keep the ones I make...even if it hurts a bit. Obviously, keeping political promises that could imperil the health of our salmon runs is far too precious a price to pay; but breaking yet another promise is still a big deal, and not something to simply wave off as being no longer relevant. I’d love to see some additional restrictions, but politically, it’s a pretty tricky thing to do well. Considering that a lot of people see such efforts as an attempt to lock up such a resource for our personal recreational interests; I think that without some coordination with tribal leaders we will have a hard time changing any policies in the near future.

There are many within the tribes who obviously do care about the health of the salmon, obviously, so I think it is critical that we work with them as much as we can. I don’t disagree, btw, with any of the complaints about some of the disgusting abuses that do occur now. I do think that generally speaking though, when we lay blame on the tribes for the declining Salmon runs its way too easy for counter blame right back at us (roads, dams, logging, mining, pollution, water consumption, pollution, etc, etc, etc). There is plenty of blame all around, but obviously that gets us nowhere fast! Like it or not, the tribes currently play a significant role in shaping policies that could benefit salmon runs, and we benefit a lot more from being able to keep the relationships with them. Respect for their perspectives (and legal rights) goes a long ways in building alliances. Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting we embrace gill netting or over harvest, but simply that furthering a rift with the tribes would likely be counterproductive towards our own interests.
JB

[STEELIES/26c3]

Hahaha..... I don’t really use what feature. I will correct some of the writing tomorrow. And I’m of the same principal Steelie...!

That was a joke buddy... Speak and Spell was a kids learning toy from the 70's...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM8FcN0aAvU

[Bob Smith]

I think it's fair to say that there's plenty of poaching and resource abuse to spread around within all sectors whether it be tribal, sport or commercial. I agree that the gill net thing is gross - it's a non selective way to harvest fish. It's no fun to dodge them when you are trying to troll the Klamath estuary and it's really annoying when you are anchored and trying to fish for springers and a tribal boat sets a net downstream of you. I do know both the Yurok (and lesser extent Hoopa) work very hard to enforce their quotas. Last year, the Yuroks didn't fish at all just like the rest of us. When they needed salmon for their fall ceremonies - they purchased fish from Alaska.

Klamath treaty tribes are allowed 50% of the harvestable surplus. The breakdown within the tribes is 80% Yurok and 20% Hoopa. The Karuk are allowed a small number of fish which they net using traditional methods at Ishi Pishi Falls. On the non tribal side - in river sport traditionally gets around 15% (of the non tribal 50%) with the remainder typically split between sport and commercial ocean fisheries. If the tribes want to sell a portion of their quota - they are well within their rights to do so. It is not in their best interest to abuse the resource that they depend on. There have actually been a lot of improvements in how they conduct their net fishery such as off days and seasons.

As well stated by other posts in this thread - the Klamath River fish would have been toast were it not for the efforts from the tribes to secure flows during critical times. I found this to at first to be a rather bitter pill to swallow but after attending numerous PFMC meetings, Klamath Task Force Councils, Klamath Settlement workshops, all I can say is thank you Klamath River tribes.