Sad state of affairs - scuba divers spearing big Stripers.....

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

.....in the Lower American River.

Just talked with a friend who says the scuba guys are spearing Stripers to 40 pounds in the Lower American River.



**I believe that the Federal Fish & Wildlife and California Fish & Wildlife are trying to help out the salmon fisheries by eliminating as many of the Stripers as possible.

[winxp_man]

Bill, funny part that the idiots don’t seem to understand is that stripers have been around here now since late 1800’s! The salmon were just fine. Along came water shed barriers made by man! With no way for fish to go around and the decline started! Then add in more crap like water greed, and drought and fish numbers start lookin funny!

[Tony Buzolich]

Why doesn't the Sacramento Bee jump all over this ? Spearing and killing a trophy fish is a ONE TIME thing. Most, fly fishermen on the other hand, practice catch and release, and these mature trophy fish can go on to breed and continue the population.

Another thing about killing these mature fish is their flesh is already tainted and toxic with mercury left in the rivers from years of mining a century ago. If these spear-O's want to eat fish they ought to kill younger legal size fish that haven't acquired so many toxins.

If they go on and knowingly kill these big fish, what do they do with the meat? Most likely throw it away in some dumpster.

Why not spear trash fish like carp, suckers, and squawfish that eat the eggs and fry of returning gamefish ? Why not spear salmon ? They're going to die anyway! (sarcasm) :(

This subject makes me sick. Tony

[Darian]

Agreed that large, speared Stripers are not likely eaten. If that proves to be the case, it'd be wasting a gamefish and illegal under the DFW code/regs. Problem is it's difficult to prove what's done with those fish after they're taken away from the river.

I have to give credit to the spear fishers association. They presented a united front to DFW when they proposed the changes to the regs.... There's no real, organized opposition to spearing Stripers in freshwater. Until that changes, we're stuck with what we have.... :mad:

[amoeba]

This matter has already been studied, proposed, and decided. I for one, have no interest in politicizing a scientific and management issue. Or do you think fly fishing somehow qualifies you? It doesn't, or do you think that the general Public is so brilliant that they can decide anything they want by State initiative. Wait a minute....

[Rossflyguy]

The fact that striper have been introduced in the late 1800’s doesn’t mean they don’t impact salmon. If there’s millions of salmon when they were first introduced it would take years to slowly drop the population. It wouldn’t be an instantaneous drop in numbers. Also, our native salmon species haven’t evolved with striper. They don’t have a “defense” against striper. That’s a fact. Spear fishing is legal so no use in complaining. Personally I’d kill smaller striper but anyone taking larger fish legally isn’t against the law. Dams don’t help the salmon population but striper don’t either and they’re eating endangered springers and low number fall runs. Salmon are more important than a strip set on a striper.

[Darian]

Amoeba,.... Is there a point to your statement???

Rossflyguy,.... Your points and the opposite side have been made many times in the past with the usual back/forth, neither side resolving the issue. We're really only addressing spearfishing for Stripers in rivers and potential changes to the regs, maybe. If you're OK with spearfishing in rivers then we aren't going to agree on much.

IMO, there're some safety issues in the American River where a lot of people use the river. Over/above the Striper issue, spearfishing with a whole bunch of people around just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

[mogaru]

Spearfishing has been happening for a while, quietly, in the american river..........it's the long arm and reach of the water hogs...........once the fish are gone there will be no reason to take as much water as needed. It's a shame for fish and gamed it's a shame, once again for the politics and politician who are raping this country. Plain and simple. There aren't any "civilized" countries in the world that allow spearfishing in the river/freshwater. Politicians and their actions are the cancer of this world.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

From talking with people like Fred Gordon and Andy Guibord who have snorkeled the river a lot it sounds like the big Stripers are not even afraid of people so spearing them would be like shooting cows in a field. Not that sporting but good for trophy pictures.


Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DqeW-BNg50

[Rossflyguy]

Water management for fish isn’t based on striper numbers. It’s based on salmon population.

[Mark V]

Hi Bill,

When did you hear they were doing that? After August? Where on the river were they spotted? Were they actually using SCUBA tanks? Do you know or suspect where they parked and entered the river?

The Sac County Rangers are on our side-- there is a County Ordinance against anyone being in possession of spear fishing gear anywhere on the American River Parkway.

So DFW Regs may allow spear killing in the water of the American river, but the only way someone could do it legally without violating the County Ordinance would be to launch a boat from somewhere on the Sac river not including Discovery Park (because that's part of the AR Parkway). If they kept their spears only on the boat and in the water, and never took them onto the river bank... Either that or if they were to launch or enter the water with permission from a private homeowner of which there are only a very few with houses right on the river bank.

Two summers ago this was debated hotly on the Forum and the Spear guys know very well about the County Ordinance and they know they are breaking the law when they park & launch from the AR Parkway. The Rangers have confirmed to me several times that they will enforce the ordinance and Fine the spear guys. We know this, and they know when they are illegal on the run. All you have to do is patiently keep calling the Sac Co. line until they answer. Report their description and location.

Let me emphasize, the last Ranger I spoke with emphatically said that possession of disassembled spear gear is just as illegal as fully assembled spear gear. He said he would ticket that guy just as fast as he would ticket a guy with a disassembled handgun. Spear guys know when they're breaking the law and hope to escape enforcement. Just think how satisfying it would be to help get one of them fined vs. listening to their apologists on this board. PLEASE use your camera and GPS and phone and your persistence and lets get this done.

I urge everyone on this board to work together with the Sac County (Sherifs). If you see someone spearfishing on the AR and suspect illegally, call the Sac Co Rangers at 916-875-7275, Then post a note on this board. Better yet send a PM to me and the others on the forum who are on the side of law enforcement with details. When you call be patient; the county has budget/staff complaints but they have always answered, and Ranger called me back every time I've called. Keep calling and your patience will pay off.

Best regards,

[Tony Buzolich]

RIGHT ON Mark ! I hope Bill responds to this as he posted it first, and I hope it's not an old post. As for the guys fishing the river regularly now for steelhead, they all ought to be vigilant about this subject.

Definitely cell phones and cameras of vehicle's license plates would be a great help if they aren't in a boat. CF numbers would be for getting boat ID's.

Good on you Mark, Tony

[mogaru]

In a way, this is an old issue. If I remember correctly from an old threat, the DFG and the park rangers started enforcing the no weapons in the park until orders from above "suggested" to "not make it a priority".

[mogaru]

I believe there are a few videos on youtube.com from the spear guys harvesting stripers in the american river........sad when these politicians and DFG allow spearfishing in freshwater. Disgusting!!!!!!!

[Mark V]

In a way, this is an old issue. If I remember correctly from an old threat, the DFG and the park rangers started enforcing the no weapons in the park until orders from above "suggested" to "not make it a priority".

If you remember correctly.. an old thread?? If that was reported in a thread, please show us it. But a thread on this forum isn't necessarily an objective fact source. I reported actual conversations with Rangers and I'll be happy to call them again and reconfirm.

If you believe the SC Sheriffs have backed off of enforcement on the Ordinance, go spearfishing from the banks and announce to all of us where & when to meet you. If you don't get ticketed I'll witness and concede the point.

I'm curious, have you speared a striper on the American before? Elsewhere? If so, how many, how often and how big? Do you also have experience striper fishing with hook & line?

P.S. I recommend everyone search Youtube for videos of American + River + spear. I've fished it enough to recognize exactly the spots they fished. One video shows the spear guy breaking the law by taking his spear & dead striper onto the river bank. Make note of how the boats & gear look, to help us make a difference with enforcement in the coming seasons.

[winxp_man]

Water management for fish isn’t based on striper numbers. It’s based on salmon population.

The amount of black bass and striper fishermen that went to rally against the tunnels I would say where bigger then salmon fishermen. Most of the lakes I have been to this summer had save the delta stickers and taking to some I would say it was a huge impact on fighting to not have the water grabbing tunnels built. When it comes to salmon it’s more meat guys vs guys that fish for sport (most meat guys don’t care enough). So the tunnels might have been a go had stripers and bass not existed in the delta.

Just my two cents.

[mogaru]

Mark, I don't know how you come up with the "fake news". All I said is what I remember from the an old thread a couple of years ago. And for the facts, I think we are on the same side, I opposed any kind of spearfishing in the American river or any freshwater for that matter. In my youth I did a lot of spearfishing, but in the ocean and free diving, the way it supposed to be. I fished for stripers all my life, in the surf, in the delta and in the rivers and I think they are a wonderful fish, that deserves to be protected.

[Mark V]

Ok, sorry-- shouldn't have assumed you're a spear guy. I remember on the old thread spear guys posted repeatedly statements like spearfishing is perfectly legal (ignoring the county ordinance), so it makes sense their other fantasy would be 'the Sheriffs have backed off of enforcement'. The Sheriffs are fully commited to enforcement; all we have to do is be patient and work together to help them.

Aaron, that's great news about black bass and striper fishermen united and a rally against the delta tunnels. I hadn't heard about that, or I probably would've attended.

[John Sv]

The amount of black bass and striper fishermen that went to rally against the tunnels I would say where bigger then salmon fishermen. Most of the lakes I have been to this summer had save the delta stickers and taking to some I would say it was a huge impact on fighting to not have the water grabbing tunnels built. When it comes to salmon it’s more meat guys vs guys that fish for sport (most meat guys don’t care enough). So the tunnels might have been a go had stripers and bass not existed in the delta.

Just my two cents.

I thought the Golden Gate Salmon Association were heavy hitters in the Tunnels fight. Also, perhaps locally the 'meat guys' aren't engaged (I can't comment either way on that) but region-wide the 'meat guys' are very involved in conservation.

[Darian]

To avoid confusion here, water in California is not managed exclusively for Salmon. at a high level, water is managed for agriculture, flood control, municipal and environmental purposes. Salmon are emphasized because they're targeted as a valuable commercial fishery. Like it or not, Black Bass, Steelhead, Stripers, Shad and many other marine species are included in water for environmental purposes.

[John Sv]

"To avoid confusion here, water in California is not managed exclusively for Salmon."

Made me laugh! Cheers!

[mogaru]

Ok, sorry-- shouldn't have assumed you're a spear guy. I remember on the old thread spear guys posted repeatedly statements like spearfishing is perfectly legal (ignoring the county ordinance), so it makes sense their other fantasy would be 'the Sheriffs have backed off of enforcement'. The Sheriffs are fully commited to enforcement; all we have to do is be patient and work together to help them.

Aaron, that's great news about black bass and striper fishermen united and a rally against the delta tunnels. I hadn't heard about that, or I probably would've attended.

If you would like to know more about this topic, google "spearfishing in the American river" and go to "fishing with JD" and you will find a lot of info on this issue (who propose it and how the DFG agency approved it). The whole thread will provide you with a lot of info and in some instance what happened when someone called the DFG ........

[mogaru]

Also on a google search "spearfishing on the american river" comes an old thread from Kiene's started by Jeff Putnam backed on june 11th 2016 which has opinions from most of the guys from this current thread. From the search on google you can go to other links from spearfishing website which contains opinions/positions from rangers and DFG officials. The water lords and their powers have a long reach and use "others" to get rid of the fish in the rivers so there won't be an obstacle for their greed.

[Rossflyguy]

[QUOTE=winxp_man;180855]The amount of black bass and striper fishermen that went to rally against the tunnels I would say where bigger then salmon fishermen. Most of the lakes I have been to this summer had save the delta stickers and taking to some I would say it was a huge impact on fighting to not have the water grabbing tunnels built. When it comes to salmon it’s more meat guys vs guys that fish for sport (most meat guys don’t care enough). So the tunnels might have been a go had stripers and bass not existed in the delta.

Sorry but water flow management for game fish is meant for salmon. Not sure what point you were trying to make about the tunnels but the only fish that has priority for water flow is salmon. Someone had said they’re allowing spearfishing to kill off all the fish. My point was the only fish that gets flows changed are salmon.

And meat guys are striper fisherman too. Pretty sure there are far more “meat” fisherman than whatever other type you think there are. Only other organization besides the conservationists that stopped the tunnels were the BASS guys. That’s a huge money market and those guys were against the tunnels too.

[Rossflyguy]

I believe taking apart the spear gun before going into the water was the only legal way to walk it to the river. You’d have to reassemble it while in the water though. This was brought up in an earlier arguement about the same issue. Honestly, if they wanted more water it wouldn’t be the striper that would be the deciding factor.

[Rossflyguy]

To avoid confusion here, water in California is not managed exclusively for Salmon. at a high level, water is managed for agriculture, food control, municipal and environmental purposes. Salmon are emphasized because they're targeted as a valuable commercial fishery. Like it or not, Black Bass, Steelhead, Stripers, Shad and many other marine species are included in water for environmental purposes.

I think you’re confused. The only fish species in the Central Valley that gets water flows changed are salmon. I didn’t say the are top priority to the state government. We don’t adjust flows for any other species. Just in case you were confused.

[Darian]

Rossflyguy,.... Not confused. Now that you've brought it down to valley rivers and excluded the state priorities, your point is easily understood but I'm still not in agreement with you.

"We don’t adjust flows for any other species."

Flows/pumping have been altered to accommodate the protected Delta Smelt for one example. If you include the entire valley, you might be painting with too broad a brush....

[Rossflyguy]

Rossflyguy,.... Not confused. Now that you've brought it down to valley rivers and excluded the state priorities, your point is easily understood but I'm still not in agreement with you.

"We don’t adjust flows for any other species."

Flows/pumping have been altered to accommodate the protected Delta Smelt for one example. If you include the entire valley, you might be painting with too broad a brush....

No I’m not. You guys keep bringing up the delta. All rivers feed the delta and that water is regulated by the dams. We don’t control water flow out of the dams to save the delta smelt right? You know exactly what I’m talking about. The whole point I’m trying to make is killing stripers isn’t going to effect water consumption by big AG either way. If striper were wiped out tomorrow that wouldn’t change water distribution. This is my entire point. This point goes back to the main topic.

[Mark V]

Rossfly you're wrong if you think possession of a disassembled spear gun is legal on the banks of the AR.

The last Ranger I spoke with emphatically said that possession of disassembled spear gear is just as illegal as fully assembled spear gear. He said he would ticket that guy just as fast as he would ticket a guy with a disassembled handgun. I think most spear guys are smart enough to know when they're breaking the law; they just hope to escape enforcement.

Another thing ignored by the apologists of spear guys is the DFW Regs limit spearfishing to May 1 -Sept 15, and no spear fishing is permitted any time of year in the designated salmon spawning areas. The designated salmon spawning area of the American river is all the water between Nimbus Dam and a point one mile downstream from Arden Way.

That's the entire upper half of the river from Gristmill upstream that's banned from spear fishing.

[mogaru]

Let's not kid ourselves, let's not be naive. If it wasn't for the fish, call it smelt, salmon, striper etc, etc, the agribusiness would take all the water. These powerful people would do anything to eradicate fish from our rivers so they can take as much water as they need. Water releases from dams flow into the delta where a system of weirs distributes it to the water lords are dictated based on their needs and if they could they would take twice as much. The fish are the only thing stopping them from doing it.

[Rossflyguy]

Let's not kid ourselves, let's not be naive. If it wasn't for the fish, call it smelt, salmon, striper etc, etc, the agribusiness would take all the water. These powerful people would do anything to eradicate fish from our rivers so they can take as much water as they need. Water releases from dams flow into the delta where a system of weirs distributes it to the water lords are dictated based on their needs and if they could they would take twice as much. The fish are the only thing stopping them from doing it.

I agree with that. But I don’t agree it’s the striper stopping them.

[Rossflyguy]

Rossfly you're wrong if you think possession of a disassembled spear gun is legal on the banks of the AR.

The last Ranger I spoke with emphatically said that possession of disassembled spear gear is just as illegal as fully assembled spear gear. He said he would ticket that guy just as fast as he would ticket a guy with a disassembled handgun. I think most spear guys are smart enough to know when they're breaking the law; they just hope to escape enforcement.

Another thing ignored by the apologists of spear guys is the DFW Regs limit spearfishing to May 1 -Sept 15, and no spear fishing is permitted any time of year in the designated salmon spawning areas. The designated salmon spawning area of the American river is all the water between Nimbus Dam and a point one mile downstream from Arden Way.

That's the entire upper half of the river from Gristmill upstream that's banned from spear fishing.

I’m only repeating what someone had said a ranger told them. That’s why I said I read it in the same debate from a year or so ago.

[Bob Laskodi]

I have never addressed the speargun issue with any body from the Sheriff's office. Mostly because the only place I ever see them is while ticketing people in the parking lots and have never actually seen a Sheriff on the banks of the American River. I have also called the referenced Sheriff phone number several times and have never had an actual person answer the phone (only voicemail). The two times I left call back numbers I never received a call back. So, I'm not impressed with any Sheriff responding to any phone call to the referenced phone number.

In regards to the claim "you're wrong if you think possession of a disassembled spear gun is legal on the banks of the AR", the discussions I have had with DFW Wardens (who I do frequently see on the river) disagree with your statement. I was told by two different DFW Wardens at two different locations that they will NOT cite anyone in possession of a speargun in any waters that are open to legal spearfishing and participating in that activity. Both Wardens did mention the closed dates and area locations to spearfishing on the American as referenced and stated that they WOULD cite any person in possession of a speargun at those locations/times. So, it seems to me quite clearly, there are differing responses (from differing LEO personnel) to the legality of possession of a speargun on the American River.
I'm personally not in favor of spearfishing on the American, I am not a "spearfishing guy", and am simply reporting my observations on this issue.


Rossfly you're wrong if you think possession of a disassembled spear gun is legal on the banks of the AR.

The last Ranger I spoke with emphatically said that possession of disassembled spear gear is just as illegal as fully assembled spear gear. He said he would ticket that guy just as fast as he would ticket a guy with a disassembled handgun. I think most spear guys are smart enough to know when they're breaking the law; they just hope to escape enforcement.

Another thing ignored by the apologists of spear guys is the DFW Regs limit spearfishing to May 1 -Sept 15, and no spear fishing is permitted any time of year in the designated salmon spawning areas. The designated salmon spawning area of the American river is all the water between Nimbus Dam and a point one mile downstream from Arden Way.

That's the entire upper half of the river from Gristmill upstream that's banned from spear fishing.

[Mark V]

Yes Rossflyguy, you again repeated that unsubstantiated rumor. Weren't you the "Striper everywhere!" guy in the thread a couple years ago? If I remember correctly, you don't live in the Sac area, and never fished the American river by any method. Or did you simply not say?

It's almost as if you repeat the unsubstantiated rumor and ignore the reports from County Rangers because you think if you repeat it enough times, it will become true.

I'm curious, why is it that you bless us with your posts on this forum? Why are you so interested in the topic of spear fishing on the American river? Most ppl posting here are pretty obvious and transparent about their motives. We're guys who fish for many different species of fish in our backyard waters, mainly with flies, and we post here to share experiences, techniques, talk equipment, and especially about protecting all the different species of fish... all so that the fish populations and the fishing will get better for everyone, not worse.

Why are you here?

[Darian]

OK Rossflyguy, you've finally stated your point:

"The whole point I’m trying to make is killing stripers isn’t going to effect water consumption by big AG either way. If striper were wiped out tomorrow that wouldn’t change water distribution. This is my entire point." I can agree with that.

[Mark V]

Bob, I can't say about DFW wardens on the river. I've never called DFW to report spearfishers illegally in the salmon spawning areas, or to ask them if they enforce the County ordinances. I don't assume DFW wardens care about enforcing the county ordinance against possession of spear gear on the AR Parkway.


I called the Sac Co. Sheriffs non-emergency number 916-875-7275 just a few minutes ago to see how easy it would be to get through. It IS an automated system, and within a few seconds offers you to press 1 for Ranger dispatch; then the next menu offers different options this and that and the other, etc, etc, etc---and at the end says Press zero for Ranger dispatch. I pressed zero and was speaking with a Ranger dispatcher. I asked if this was the right number to call to report illegal spearfishing on the American river, and the dispatcher asked me where they were.

I explained I wanted to verify this was the best phone # to use to report, and l also asked to talk to a Ranger about the spearfishing Regs and their enforcement. Just like in June of 2015 and June 2016, the dispatcher took my name & number for one of the Rangers to call me back.

A very pleasant surprise that I got through to a dispatcher so quickly, and they seemed eager to send a Ranger to cite a law breaker. I remember another time in the fall year before last, I was walking along the river bank below Sunrise and I called that number from my cell to report a couple of guys digging REALLY BIG holes in the river bed as they were apparently mining for gold. The Rangers responded and apparently the digging they were doing was not approved/legal and got stopped.

On the other hand, I just paused writing this to try the number again, and got a busy signal several times in a row. I remember that happening a bit a couple years ago, which is why I say be patient.


Like you, I am not in favor of spearfishing on the American, I am not a "spearfishing guy", I'll agree that different Law Enforcement Officers have differing policies, especially DFW wardens different from County Sheriffs (Rangers). I spent many days on the water in the summer and I've seen quite a few Rangers on the banks.

[STEELIES/26c3]

It's based on neither... water management is based on money and profit

[STEELIES/26c3]

Water management for fish isn’t based on striper numbers. It’s based on salmon population.

It's based on neither... water management is based on money and profit
and any fishery which can be legally, even if not scientifically or acceptably exploited, will be exploited

[winxp_man]

Ross to your reply to what I stated about striper fishermen (but also mentioned black bass to which you just read right over) my point was pretty dam simple. These because of the black bass and stripers in the delta we (for now) have a hold or stop to the delta tunnels!!!!!! It was not an argument that striper need water flows or not! Yes the main species at play is salmon and steelhead. Butfact if the matter is that if it where just up to salmon guys...... we might have had tunnels built in the delta! As Steelie posted once how not many fly guys showed up how many more where even gear salmon guys??? Bet to say not many! Black bass is big money in the delta and stripers also bring in revenue. This people fought what they don’t want to see go away because of the tunnel sucking the fresh water out of the delta system.

And to the original statement I don’t agree at all that stripers are ruining salmon numbers. It’s the dams that are limiting spawning grounds for fish! It’s simple! The America river is like a 1 gallon fish tank! The American River with the head waters is like a 100 gallon tank.... which will support bigger numbers? Pretty damn obvious! While these fish are locked in the lower river as the only spawning grounds nothing will ever improve! Why well.... sac pike, sucker fish, and whatever other predator you find will take over if stripes are wiped out. Again to what my first post here was stripers are not an issue that if gone will fix the salmon problems!

[John Sv]

Ross to your reply to what I stated about striper fishermen (but also mentioned black bass to which you just read right over) my point was pretty dam simple. These because of the black bass and stripers in the delta we (for now) have a hold or stop to the delta tunnels!!!!!! It was not an argument that striper need water flows or not! Yes the main species at play is salmon and steelhead. Butfact if the matter is that if it where just up to salmon guys...... we might have had tunnels built in the delta! As Steelie posted once how not many fly guys showed up how many more where even gear salmon guys??? Bet to say not many! Black bass is big money in the delta and stripers also bring in revenue. This people fought what they don’t want to see go away because of the tunnel sucking the fresh water out of the delta system.

And to the original statement I don’t agree at all that stripers are ruining salmon numbers. It’s the dams that are limiting spawning grounds for fish! It’s simple! The America river is like a 1 gallon fish tank! The American River with the head waters is like a 100 gallon tank.... which will support bigger numbers? Pretty damn obvious! While these fish are locked in the lower river as the only spawning grounds nothing will ever improve! Why well.... sac pike, sucker fish, and whatever other predator you find will take over if stripes are wiped out. Again to what my first post here was stripers are not an issue that if gone will fix the salmon problems!

Aron, not sure if you saw my post but I believe your observation about salmon fishermen is inaccurate: http://www.goldengatesalmon.org/

[amoeba]

Amoeba,.... Is there a point to your statement???

Rossflyguy,.... Your points and the opposite side have been made many times in the past with the usual back/forth, neither side resolving the issue. We're really only addressing spearfishing for Stripers in rivers and potential changes to the regs, maybe. If you're OK with spearfishing in rivers then we aren't going to agree on much.

IMO, there're some safety issues in the American River where a lot of people use the river. Over/above the Striper issue, spearfishing with a whole bunch of people around just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Yes, there is a point to my statement.

[OceanSunfish]

It's based on neither... water management is based on money and profit
and any fishery which can be legally, even if not scientifically or acceptably exploited, will be exploited

This is the bottom line........ anything or activity that assists/hastens/expedites the reduction/elimination of a fish/fishery only benefits those interested in the bottom line.