Pegging beads...more controversial than pineapple on pizza???

[Gregg]

Haven’t posted here for a while, been fishing a ton. Had a somewhat humorous interaction a few months back and been on my mind. Went into Kiene’s to pick up some 8mm beads and pegs, selection was pretty darn slim and when I asked where the pegs / beads were one of the employees responded with “I don’t know, I would never peg a bead. Maybe somewhere over there...”. I wasn’t even bent about the customer service thing, I didn’t take it for that big of a deal, I was just more curious about why some people get all uppity about pegging beads and what the actual experience is with it. My experience has been that trout tend to take eggs deeper for some strange reason, I’m not a trout scientist so I have no idea if that’s a thing, but when I fish an egg pattern more often than not I’m reaching way down their gullett with my pliers to get the damn thing out, which I imagine is stressing that fish + increased time being out of the water. When I fish a pegged bead the hook isn’t almost ALWAYS in the jaw, typically on the outside, and I can unhook and release the fish while it’s entirely in the water without ever touching it. Quick and easy.

I expect the con perspective to be something about “ur flossing der fish!!!” but come on...there’s a 1” gap between the hook and the bead, we aren’t talking about dragging 20 yards of mono with a treble hook across the river here. There’s longer gaps on stinger hooks on streamers. Most guides I know roll their eyes at the criticism and peg beads all day, curious what everyone’s angle is and if I’m missing a valid argument against it. Is it just too damn effective? Is it more ethical to turn that plastic into fibers and tie it onto the shank instead of melting that same plastic and floating it above the hook?

And most importantly, have you even had pineapple on pizza??? It’s great. People are crazy if they think otherwise.

[Larry S]

Gregg,
Check your PM's.
Best,
Larry S
Sun Diego

[Ralph]

"Most guides I know roll their eyes at the criticism and peg beads all day". It would be more accurate to say, "Most guides I know roll their eyes at Fish and Wildlife regulations and peg beads all day." I would add that most anglers state their 8" fish is about a foot and their 4" gap between bead and hook is about 1". Rationalize until the cows come home, but under any pretext, it is still snagging.

[Sheepdog8404]

I imagine guides do what guides do because at the end of the day, a client who puts fish in the net is a client willing to give a generous tip regardless if regulations and ethics are considered. Maybe a pegged bead is more effective for "catching" fish but why sacrifice morality and honest catching for numbers? Just seems unethical to me. If numbers are what you want to chase and beads are how you want to fish, why not put the FLY rod down and pick up a conventional or spinning system?

[Gregg]

“...why sacrifice mortality and honest catching for numbers”

This is the conversation I want to have. Are you saying, through experientation and evidence, that a pegged bead IS a more harmful to a fish than a glo-bug or other egg pattern? What I’m saying is in my experience using both and watching guides use both, I’ve seen overwhelmingly that glo-bug / egg patterns end up deeper in the fish and are more harmful to remove. I believe in outliers and flukes so maybe dozens of days of seeing the same thing is a weird statistical anomaly? Weirder things in this world have happened. If you’ve fished both have you seen the opposite? Ralph loves making assumptions, I imagine it’s from getting old and salty but also from some experience and truth of what he’s seen in his many years being a river Jedi master, but if a pegged bead is rigged 1” above the hook as I’ve seen everyone do, is this actually more harmful? Is it “unethical”? Is a San Juan worm “unethical”? Why fish a streamer when you could just toss a rapala from a spinning rod? Or are we just being a bunch of cork sniffers and parsing unimportant details so we have something to turn our noses up at? And if it is harmful and unethical, why are these products even offered at fly shops and why isn’t anyone picketing to have them taken off the shelves? I’m 100% positive Ralph will be able to link to a 38 page report from 1992 on trout mortality with pegged beads, and I hope he does. I would actually like to read it.

[Ffdoc]

Somewhere there is a guy wearing a tweed jacket, smoking a pipe and sitting on a bench waiting to cast only to a rising trout. He is using a bamboo rod and casting only dry flies made of natural fur and feathers. My hat is off to him and he can call himself a true purist. For the rest of us we look very silly when we turn our noses up and call fellow fly fishers lesser sportsmen because they use bead head nymphs or weighted flies or artificial material for flies or split shot with flies or pegged beads or don't swing for steelhead. If you follow the law, go barbless and release your wild fish unharmed and carefully, I cannot look down on you however you choose to fish and you are my brother or sister. These discussions come up from time to time and always seem to bring out the worst in some.


My perspective.

Mike

FFdoc

[Sheepdog8404]

“...why sacrifice mortality and honest catching for numbers”

This is the conversation I want to have.

Which question would you like me to answer first?

In my experience and in the many reports, articles and journals I've read regarding fishing with egg imitations in general, whether they be a glo bug, pegged bead, pautzke eggs and roe sacs, trout tend to get hooked much deeper and require more attention to get unhooked as you stated. Not sure why this is the case but I'm sure there's a scholarly journal out there which explains in detail the physics and fish behavior that leads to this. It didn't take me very long to get away from this style of fishing after releasing a handful of fish only to watch them go belly up or swim off sloooowly and leaving me with a disgusted sensation that I squandered the experience of catching that fish only to know his fate was probably sealed due to the rig I was using. You said in your OP that you notice fish take beads deeper and the process to unhook them stresses the fish. So I ask you, why continue to do that if you know how it turns out? If you fish pegged beads and notice they're hooked on the outside of the mouth, isn't that an unfair catch? A fish with a hook not IN the mouth is a snagged fish, is it not? If I land a fish that I saw strike at the fly but the fly is lodged in it's head, fin, cheek, eye, throat or anywhere else on it's head EXCEPT IN THE MOUTH, I don't count that fish. I didn't CATCH that fish. I may not the pipe smoking, cane rod and silk line casting, dry fly fishing purist but I don't see a problem turning my nose up at a technique that renders fish overly stressed and injured. If your goal is to put meat in the freezer, by all means fish however you can do that most efficiently. But if your goal is to solve the puzzle, share a moment with a fish and release it unharmed and relatively stress free, why deepthroat em and why catch them on the side of their face? It just doesn't make sense to me...

[Gregg]

You read it wrong, go back. I said I’ve noticed glo-bugs and other egg imitations tied on the shank of the hook taken deeper, and that’s pegged beads always seem to be on the mouth, either right inside or on the mouth right outside, but still on the “lip”. I’ve hooked plenty of fish on dry flies in the corner of the mouth or on the “lip” just outside of it, and my post states that from what I’ve seen, a pegged bead hook is far faster and easier to remove than any other egg imitations. I also said this might be ONLY my experience, I could be completely the statistical anomaly, but wasn’t this technique developed because fish were taking egg patterns too deep? It doesn’t work on me to fudge things and slide in silliness like “on the side of their face”. If someone has experience that pegged beads are a more dangerous “pattern” than an egg fly tied on the hook (which many have never stated a problem with), than please, let me hear it. I’m definitely not the only person wondering and you’d be doing the fly fishing community a solid AND educating fly shops as to why they shouldn’t carry this product. But...if there is no evidence for this claim and it’s just based on heresay or assumptions, and by default we’re saying that egg patterns are “more humane” options and they end up not being, it’s actually a disservice to fishermen and women and fisheries. Holler at me with some data, I enjoy learning more.

[Ralph]

Some rather wild assumptions being made. I am not addressing hooking mortality, we are talking about sporting ethics. 42 states outlaw snagging for the simple reason that it has been judged not an ethical way to fish. Pitch forking, gill netting, and jacklighting are outlawed for the same reason. If the pendulum swings to the point where snagging and pitchforking are judged sporting methods for catching your fish, so be it. A plastic bead glued to a hook fails miserably, while the same bead pegged up leader tricks the fish almost every time. There is a reason for it, the weightless bead bounces and drifts like nothing you can do with a hook attached to the bead. There are MANY things you can do to dumb down fishing, bypass being skillful, and make it easier to catch a fish, but like netting, pitchforking, rubbing a worm on the fly, or other lucrative means of bringing extra fish to hand, sometimes the means doesn't justify the end. Snagging isn't a measure of the skill of any fly fisher, nor is it even fly fishing in any traditional sense of the term, so please don't pretend otherwise.

[Gregg]

And side note... I’ve been fly fishing for a bit now and spend more time on the water than I should probably be. Looking back I have 100% mishandled fish, held them out of the water, done the grip n’ grin, etc. Statistically I’m sure some of those fish didn’t make it after I sent them packing, but not once, ever, have I released a fish and actually watched it go belly up. Maybe I’ve just never played a fish as long as others or opted to fish low / warm water...I don’t know. But I see that posted sometimes and always wonder “how???”. Sportsman rule #1, you kill it, you eat it. That fish goes belly up and it gets Bear Grills’d on the spot. I can’t imagine anything sadder than a fish floating away belly up while the angler just says “oops” ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Obvious side note and not meant to derail the topic.

[Gregg]

Well Ralph, I’m taking mortality. Ethics are subjective, mortality is documentable. I’m interested why there’s a standard for one thing when the evidence doesn’t seem to support it. If you want to be ethical we’ll just stand away from the water and watch trout rise, unmolested in the serenity of nature. Take only photographs, leave only footprints. Etc etc etc. You’re using the term “snagging” pretty liberally and I think you’re smart enough to know that. If you do feel so passionate about it I’m expecting to see you in the fly shops and in the guide boats demanding their removal. I have a feeling that won’t happen tho, as a random person on an Internet forum is a bit safer to critique.
Again, I’m all ears to shop employees, guides, wildlife biologists, etc. I’m not singing the praises of beading for trout, I’m curious why some people are against it. From an evidence based position. Not their personal “touchy feelies” about nobility.

[Mark Kranhold]

It's a simple solution! Just don't fish egg patterns when the egg bites on! Swing some meat ... it's a better take!

[Morgan]

Fishing a pegged bead properly is in no way "snagging", fish. Fish eat eggs, fish eat bugs, fish eat other fish. As fly fishermen we fish those patterns. So when one is fishing an egg pattern he is simply matching the "hatch". Just because someone is using a pattern that 'ONE", doesn't agree with does not mean they are snagging.

Eggs are a controversial pattern...beads even more so. They work great and are part of a fishes diet. Some purists will turn their noses up at those fishing those said patterns. So be it. It leaves more egg eaters for me ;)

[John Sv]

I was going to post that regardless of what we all think of the ethics of pegged beads, hooking a fish OUTSIDE the mouth is illegal BUT I went to verify that in the CA DFW code and couldn't find anywhere that says that. Did I miss it? there's a lot of regs written to prevent snagging but but I didn't see where hooking a fish on the outside of the mouth was illegal. If someone can find that, will you please post it?
Thanks!

[JasonB]

Pineapple, BBQ chicken, onions, bacon, and sun dried tomatoes! There’s a pizza! Don’t really care whether others are wise, and sophisticated enough to appreciate.

As for beads, I actually think that you have a point in terms of mortality issues, if we are comparing to other egg imitations (or actual eggs). Of course Mark has it right, that there is a much better comparison to be made; just skip the eggs altogether! My own issues with beads aren’t really ethically based, but aesthetically based. I mean we are talking about a bit of colored plastic, some split shot (lead for some), another plastic ball, all lobbed upstream, then waiting for the bobber to go down. I have tried it, and I just found myself asking what about it was fun? I get that it can be very effective, but that’s just not what fishing is all about, to me anyway.

I am no “purist”, or snob, and I’m fine with others fishing how they want, but I certainly wouldn’t advocate this style of fishing to others as I think that it really misses the mark of what makes fly fishing so much more rewarding and enjoyable. For some people, it’s really all about catching fish, and if that’s what floats your boat go for it. To me, the whole process is what makes the hookup so rewarding: the creative process of tying flies, the casting, the grab, etc, all make up for a total experience that does far more for me than the fish wiggling on the end of my line, or a photo. I found none of these ingredients fishing with beads, and the idea of contributing still more unnecessary plastic to our streams and oceans doesn’t sit right with me either.

Enjoy your pizza.

[Ralph]

I'm not sure why you would expect me to lobby to make something illegal that is already illegal. There is no debate regarding the definition of snagging, and DFW has made it abundantly clear that fishing pegged beads is snagging. In the scheme of things flossing is so far down the list of things wardens have to worry about that I wouldn't expect them to go out of their way to bust guys snagging with beads nor does it bother me as much as you apparently think it does. You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you. I'm sorry you can't grasp the idea that ethical considerations are the basis for much of our hunting and fishing code known as "rules of fair chase."

To give examples other than snagging, you can't shoot ducks from a moving boat, chum for trout, bait bear, or shoot deer behind a spot light. None of these laws are based on biological reasons, they are based on the rules of "fair chase" as sportsmen have devised them over the decades. Most of us get it.

[Woodman]

Back to the important question. Pineapple on pizza is an abomination. As is fruit flavor in beer.

[Siskiyoublues]

How come no one has referenced the part of the current regs detailing why fishing beads is illegal? I'd call that a good starting point for making a point.

[Ralph]

How come no one has referenced the part of the current regs detailing why fishing beads is illegal? I'd call that a good starting point for making a point.

Article 1. 2.00 (b) b) Snagging is prohibited. Snagging is defined as impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than inside the mouth by use of a hook, hooks, gaff , or other mechanical implement.

(c) It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait or artificial lure inside its mouth.

[mogaru]

I'm so sick and tired of the "my ethics are better than yours and I'm going above and beyond of the DFG regulations and you should too"......go fishing and don't mind what others do as long as they abide by the law.......

[Rossflyguy]

I'm not sure why you would expect me to lobby to make something illegal that is already illegal. There is no debate regarding the definition of snagging, and DFW has made it abundantly clear that fishing pegged beads is snagging. In the scheme of things flossing is so far down the list of things wardens have to worry about that I wouldn't expect them to go out of their way to bust guys snagging with beads nor does it bother me as much as you apparently think it does. You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you. I'm sorry you can't grasp the idea that ethical considerations are the basis for much of our hunting and fishing code known as "rules of fair chase."

To give examples other than snagging, you can't shoot ducks from a moving boat, chum for trout, bait bear, or shoot deer behind a spot light. None of these laws are based on biological reasons, they are based on the rules of "fair chase" as sportsmen have devised them over the decades. Most of us get it.

No where in DFW regs say pegged beads or using beads is snagging or illegal. Definition of a snagged fish is hooked anywhere BUT inside the mouth. So if your stonefly nymph was eaten head first by a smaller fish and hooked on the outer lip, by YOUR statement, that’s considered snagging. Fish get hooked inside/outside the mouth, top of the lips, in the face, etc. It all depends on the size of the fish, how they take it, and the presentation. I’ve caught fish on pegged beads and it always hooked them through the lip of their mouth if it wasn’t a big enough fish to take the whole setup. Some people need to loosen up. This fish took the bead. DFW is more interested in people snagging fish who aren’t eating/striking the lure/bait presented to then. If you’re that much of a “purist” stop using dyed UV materials and go collect your own materials in the woods.

[Siskiyoublues]

Article 1. 2.00 (b) b) Snagging is prohibited. Snagging is defined as impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than inside the mouth by use of a hook, hooks, gaff , or other mechanical implement.

(c) It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait or artificial lure inside its mouth.

Not trying to disagree with you, just seeking clarity.
When you are fishing beads aren't you attempting to hook the fish inside their mouths?
I think it's fair to say far more fish that eat a bead are hooked inside the mouth instead of outside.
Is it an issue of trying to prove intent when it comes to determine if someone is snagging or not?
I think it's fair to say there are odd instances where I have hooked fish outside of the mouth using every technique and it was never my intent.

[Rossflyguy]

Not trying to disagree with you, just seeking clarity.
When you are fishing beads aren't you attempting to hook the fish inside their mouths?
I think it's fair to say far more fish that eat a bead are hooked inside the mouth instead of outside.
Is it an issue of trying to prove intent when it comes to determine if someone is snagging or not?
I think it's fair to say there are odd instances where I have hooked fish outside of the mouth using every technique and it was never my intent.

Exactly. I think this is more of a “purist” opinion more than common sense. If this was really an attempt to snag than guides would be using it and risk losing they’re guide license.

[cdevine]

I fish a lot quite frankly. I wish I fished more. Ha ha. I've met some of you and others I haven't. For the most part I think 99% of the people on this board go above and beyond to do the right thing. Gregg is one of them. Calling somebody or something unethical for fishing a bead when its legal is a tad extreme. Everybody is entitled to his/her opinion though. BTW, the wardens I've met are looking for people intentionally breaking the law and doing so in a way it benefits them and harms something or somenbody else. Most of the time this involves harvesting fish or illegal hunting kills. Somebody who is pegging a bead fishing C&R is doing neither. Do I peg beads? I did in Alaska about a decade ago but it got so silly I switched to a flesh fly pattern to try and keep my skills somewhat sharp. Locally I've used a few different winter type designs. The most recent was introduced by LCO owner George Revel. Here is a pic of a fish I got on it last week on the EW. Right in the lip!! Not deep.

tight lines and get out there!

13704

[mogaru]

I'd love to see some pictures of fish caught on beads...........as a matter in fact I'm going to use some today to catch me a toad......Pleaaaaaase someone show some pictures of fish hooked with beads............beads, beads, beads rock. I want some beads for christmas.........

[cdevine]

Couldn't agree more. The only dead fish I saw on the EW are the perch that get blown thru tunnel and don't do well in the 40 degree water. I hate golf because of the snobs. Fly fishing unfortunately has a similiar stigma at times. Just fish. Share what works and try to help others. Challenge yourself to get better. Easy formula.

[johnsquires]

Seems to be one of those areas where civil discourse often goes by the wayside. Personal preference and one's interpretation of regulations play into this. Also, I feel that when someone is asked to give a differing opinion, does so, and then is put down for doing so, that, in my opinion, is not a very productive way to debate such issues.
There is an interesting undercurrent of what constitutes fly fishing (not to mention what constitutes pizza). I don't pretend to have the definitive answers (except on pizza, I do have the definitive answer on pizza), and, though I'm not a fan of beads, I wouldn't attempt to force my opinions on others, as long as what they are doing is legal. I've used beads twice in Alaska and, although it was extremely effective, I'd rather fish with other methods. But that's just me. I do see/have seen where others enjoy beading.
For the life of me, though, I can't understand someone putting ketchup on a hot dog.

[Gregg]

So I genuinely love these kinds of conversations. I’ve said it before, friction is what builds ideas and I think it’s perfectly fine for people to go after eachother a bit...as long as it’s all for the goal of understanding or broaching ideas. I’ve been called a “pompous a**hole” (asterisks because now that word is civil) in the past and I’ll be called one in the future, I don’t get hurt feelies about it or hold grudges or anything. All that being said, I’m at Glenshire right this second and we’re crushing them, mostly on rubberlegs but a few have come on the bead, and lo and behold...the hook somehow magically wound up on the jaw or just inside. I’ll try to take a close up pic if I get another one. Who knows, “haters will say it’s photoshopped” maybe...?

A buddy did get a really solid one on the rubberleg a minute ago, will throw up some pics this eve. Go get ‘em. Work the super slow froggy water and hang on, there’s some big dogs on the prowl.

Thanks for the kind words btw everyone (Cdevine & more), very appreciated :)

[cdevine]

Awesome work Gregg! Can't wait to see the pics. As everyone knows you work for them on the Big T. And it got chilly the last 2 days...

[bigfly]

When I was little...I wanted fish.....it didn't matter how I did it.....I wanted fish.
So I used bait, and when that didn't work....M80s and 1/4 sticks did.....(think small Kansas crk, not trout waters....)
As a grown up, I like a little more challenge....if grenades were legal I wouldn't fish them now...
I apreciate a challenge. I suspect just hooking up after a while may get dull if it's too easy........but then you can go for most fish ever caught in a day by a right handed white boy.....switch to left hand for an easier record....say 342 trout handled in a day without a shocking device.........
Your face on a Wheaties box...and bead sponsors too...(salty old guy)

People ask me why I don't guide AK.
It's because I have spent years learning bugs...I would be bored to tears just catching fish on beads.
Stupid easy might be the best term for younger guys to understand......and why guides use them....clients want a fish...
many without much fishing background....

Seems logically, if there is no challenge, how much gratification can there be?
Ya caught a fish on a bead woohoo......
Was it pink or blue?
Old guys might refer to it as respect for our sport?
But nevermind....I don't intend to change minds...especially when it seems it was brought up to stir the pot, without a chance of your being convinced otherwise....did you bring this up once before?
It's very rare in my world to hook outside the mouth. And for me....that's the deal breaker...we call that foul hooked, or not fairly caught.....I know...who decided what's fair?....Decades of sportsmen.
Why do you think we fish barbless?
I don't think beads will go away till they change the regs.......and I doubt that will happen....since consumers like them, even if shop people don't. ..
But I'd rather take up self dentistry than fish beads.
If you wonder why guys just swing instead of bobber fish? It's because the outcome is even less likely....
Why on earth would somebody make this sport harder? Because it's more sporting and way more challenging....
And logically...more satisfying....


Jim

[kilgore]

My experience is when adult salmon are in the river, and trout are "stationed" below their redds feeding on eggs... they will take a dry fly. Usually that time of year, there are a lot of caddis around. Many times I've stayed way back, and cast a dry caddis over the rear end of a redd, and had a nice rainbow come for it very quickly. So, maybe fewer glo bugs and beads (pegged or not) and a few more dry flies.

[Woodman]

How about fishing a two fly nymph rig. I'm sure it doesn't happen to any of the rest of you, but sometimes I end up with a fish hooked in the side on my lower fly...

Different form of snagging, but same result.

[Ralph]

Yep, happens to me too with a dry/dropper rig. Bums me out when it happens, but it isn't very often. I haven't fished a double nymph rig in years because I can barely fish one nymph right, much less two. For me, hooking up with a double nymph rig is often more a matter of luck than skill.

[Rossflyguy]

Well if you peg the bead 1” about the hook you shouldn’t be snagging fish in the fin or the sides. If you’re trying to break it down the fish is eating the bead. So it’s by definition not snagging. The fish is eating the presented technique. As far as beads not being fly fishing, what’s fly fishing to you? Fly fishing has changed the last 20-30 years. Fly lines, rods, reels, and flies. Fly fishing is about matching the hatch with a FLY ROD/REEL with an artificially made food item.

[cdevine]

Next topic covered will be the art of Czech nymphing with a bamboo rod.:cool:
Time to fish and prayer for a little weather. Peace out.

[Gregg]

So I kinda figured that there'd be an attempt to hijack the topic and move it away from the technicalities of pegged beads vs other egg patterns and into "you just aren't elevated enough young padawan to use a size 22 PMD for all applications". Lol ok.

If you think fishing pegged beads is a handicap or easy you should take a size 12 yellow stimulator out to Deer Creek in June, it'll blow your mind. I'm not saying it's hard either, I'm saying it doesn't seem like anything to cry over...as some others have stated, it's sometimes the right piece for the puzzle at the right time. And not the right piece for others.

I was on the water today with a couple buddies. I get out a bunch, they aren't able to make it quite as often. We all enjoy fishing and hanging out and making fun of eachother, and yes, actually catching fish fits into the day really nicely if it's in the cards. We're fishing a pretty well known run and this other duo is making their way upstream on the other side of the river, I couldn't be sure but it really looked like a guide and a client. Nobody that I'd know, but you know how you can just kind of tell? Well fisherman was casting a nymph at first directly upstream without a "bobber" (as y'all pros like to call them) and getting hung up and losing flies. Potential guide guy looking at his phone, didn't seem entirely engaged in the situation. Guy switched to a dry, casting upstream into pretty solid water. Still nothing. No takes. No rises. Just...casting. Cool? I guess? I'm not part of the 1% so casting what's probably the wrong rig into good water and not hooking up, and spending money to do it doesn't really fit into my economic equation, but damn...if someone wants to pay me we can meet at the park and I'll bring beers and even take action photos while we practice casting and you'll stay dry and warm the whole time.

Meanwhile we're across the river finding fish on rubberlegs, beads, and tiny S&M's...in the same water they just abandoned. And we're having a hell of a time. And we're laughing and cheering eachother on and I'll be darned but we all walked away saying "that was a pretty swell day". And my two buddies who don't get out super often, but who had success, will remember this day and probably invest in more gear and fish more and the circle of life continues. Because they used the right piece for the right puzzle at the right time.

So back to the topic at hand, is fishing a pegged bead "snagging"? I was telling the guys about this thread and we were laughing about it and said we'd take a close up pic of the next fish we hooked on a pegged bead and I'd post it here, even if it was hooked on top of it's head or on the side of the face or in it's belly. We'd leave it up to the gods to decide the fate of my claim that a properly pegged bead tends to hook in the right spot, and...(turn away now if you're squeamish)

http://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/5U0X6w.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po5U0X6wj)'t

anyways, a hell of a day today. Highly recommend getting on the water if you can stand the cold, even if it makes you feel better to just cast and not catch anything. It's a whole lot better than sitting in front of the tv.

http://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/Tawd4P.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poTawd4Pj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/KfKtXV.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poKfKtXVj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/qcHvde.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnqcHvdej)

http://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/oly823.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnoly823j)

http://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/G6175N.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnG6175Nj)


also...if anyone lost a 6" olive cone head articulated streamer with a stinger hook about 3" behind the "fly" holler at me, I picked one up off the riverbed while we were packing out whatever trash we came across.

[Gregg]

Forgot to mention, was in Puerto Vallarta years back and ordered a “combination pizza” from a local spot and I kid you not it came with cut up hot dogs and raisins and I was like “damn you guys are wild down here”

[bigfly]

Eggs and legs are the standard guide fair, I don't really have a problem with it.....it's just hard to be superior when using the lowest common denominator.......are fish spawning now?
Good combo for the stocked club fish though.......

Jim

[Idadon]

Gregg started this thread by stating his concern about trout getting hooked deep on egg patterns (beads). I'm wondering if there is a practical reason why a guy can't tie an egg pattern on a circle hook? I mean, other then the fact that the smallest I've seen is a Gama # 8. I'm not an expert on circle hooks but wouldn't that help with the deep hook issue?

[Ralph]

The bead controversy is far from a local thing. Unlike California's ambiguity and apparent unwillingness to clarify the issue, other states have bead-specific laws and more are coming down the pike. On Montana's Madison River, see a guy pegging a bead, you will also see 5 cell phones being pulled out to call the cops. It is illegal and simply not accepted by most guides or locals as fair chase. Alaska on the other hand, while pegged beads are specifically declared snagging devices and thus illegal, I know very few people who don't openly bead and apparently citations are only written when in conjunction with some other violation.

Here is what is going on in Wyoming a few years after Game and Fish formally declared pegged beads as a snagging device and specifically outlawed the use. Interesting perspective.

http://www.minturnanglers.com/events/off-the-beaten-path/out-of-shop-events/beads-north-platte-river/

[Gregg]

To reiterate (and to kick a super dead horse haha) my position from the start was:

Egg style patterns that are tied on the shank of the hook seem to be taken dangerously deep.

Pegged beads (as shown in my last picture) never seem to be taken deep and allow for an easier hook removal and release.

Egg style patterns tied on the shank seem to get a pass from criticism.

Pegged beads seem to bring out snobbish responses and accusations of “snagging” or “flossing”.

The convo about how easy it is to catch a fish on one is totally valid and interesting, but not at all the point or intent of this thread.

[Gregg]

Ralph that’s a very interesting article, read the entire thing. But in the pic it shows the bead pegged, what...8 inches above the hook? I’ve never seen that done, ever. That’s psychotic and completely obvious. Is that the standard you’ve seen in CA waters? Any guide I’ve seen peg a bead and every rig I’ve ever seen with my own eyes uses a maximum of a finger width between bead and hook. Who is the world is actually putting an 8”+ gap between them. Maybe the rules need to be clarified to reflect a reasonable gap, but I didn’t know anyone seriously rigs like that in the first place.

[bigfly]

Don't take this all wrong....
I think it's cool if you look out for the fish.
When you say pegging beads, some of us see a series of beads, and a hook down there somewhere......
That is flossing.....
If you are fishing only one bead and are getting lower rates of foul hooks, then carry on....till they change the regs, if ever.
I fished with a guy one day who had issues with outside hookups.
Maybe he wasn't as dial in......but I was off-put by the style..more like horrified......
Could be an old guy thing.....or a young guy thing......
I won't be using beads, and rarely an egg, partly due to the suck-down effect when they eat.
At times in my career I would do about anything to catch fish. Over time "how" you get it done comes to matter more than outfishing the other guys and laughing at the their struggles to hook up.....or at least that's what happened to me.....
It doesn't seem like a challenge to me when the fish are too easy to catch. I'm here for the difficulty not gross numbers.
Perhaps you and I will meet on the water and you can enlighten me.......but I think bottom line, you need to be honest about how many fish out of ten, get hooked inside......if it's well over 8 fish hooked fairly... then I think it's no worse than normal.
I know a guy who fishes a pegged egg 1" above a silly worm w/hook, he doesn't get any foul hookups......
To answer your earlier question, I do think if more guys, get more fish more often with less work.....it will not help the fishery.
Treat them like a commodity...and they won't last forever.
And a nick name I acquired is Yoda....but honestly, we are all padawans.....

And I once fished a live shiner on a fly rod and reel......that didn't make it fly fishing.......fly fishing sort of implies flies...or bugs.

Jim

[Siskiyoublues]

Here is what is going on in Wyoming a few years after Game and Fish formally declared pegged beads as a snagging device and specifically outlawed the use. Interesting perspective.

http://www.minturnanglers.com/events/off-the-beaten-path/out-of-shop-events/beads-north-platte-river/

From the article..."I know for a fact that the bead rig if setup correctly does not hurt fish and it’s not snagging."

[Gregg]

Jim I think that’s a great perspective and position and one I agree with. I wanted this thread to define clarity on the technicality of pegged beads vs glo-bug type flies and which, if the angler chooses to fish this style, is a safer method. From what I can gather the answer, unanimously, is a bead pegged well within reason. One finger width / 1” maximum above the hook. I think that’s completely reasonable, and the use / sales of glo-bug type flies should probably be discouraged due to the nature of them being taken deeper and injuring the fish.

As for what’s “sporting” or “ethical”, I totally see what you’re getting at and, like most, enjoy the challenge. It isn’t hard to have 20 fish days when there’s a BWO or caddis hatch coming off strong. It definitley isn’t hard at all to catch trout during a hex hatch on Almanor. You can have an absolute field day with one ant pattern working the edges at Manzanita in the summer, and I have buddies in Utah who can catch monster browns throwing an articulated streamer into the same spot on the Middle Provo without fail every single time. I thought they were kidding until I went and did it myself. It was stupidly easy. All experiences are fun, and I appreciate an angler who utilizes all techniques at the right time, and more so one who starts learning how to handle fish better, picks up trash on the river, contributes to wildlife charities...and maybe most importantly, helps teach someone coming up and showing them a path to success and enjoyment on the water. None of that means I don’t like a challenge, but I’m not going to dye a March brown pattern chartreuse and throw that at them just because fishing what they’re looking for is too easy.

[cdevine]

I don't think I have enough experience fishing "egg" patterns to suggest they are taken deeper or not. I caught some nice fish on the EW on an egg pattern (not a bead) and they were in the lip last week. But honestly most of the fish I caught were on other patterns like a midge and small stonefly.

What surprises me about CA is actually the ability to fish multiple flies. When I was in BC a guy at the fly shop was appalled when I told him the style rig I typically use on our freestone and tail waters. Last year during the high run off I stopped using multiple fly rigs. Lost too many flies and pain in the ass to start/stop.

We have some odd regs to be honest. One of the strangest if you ask me is on the lower sac which arguably has the most wild fish per mile as any tail water in CA. You can fish bait and roe but has to be barbless hooks and C&R... Huh.... Guys throwing worms and crickets on barbless hooks.... That needs to change before beads if you ask me.

Didn't mean to hijack. Like I said I haven't fished beads since Alaska years back. But that is just me. My winter menu is mainly midges subsurface. I wish I had better eye sight or else I would be throwing 22-24 midges in the film these days. Damn eyes.

Fish on!

[JD]

To reiterate (and to kick a super dead horse haha) my position from the start was:

Egg style patterns that are tied on the shank of the hook seem to be taken dangerously deep.

Pegged beads (as shown in my last picture) never seem to be taken deep and allow for an easier hook removal and release.

Egg style patterns tied on the shank seem to get a pass from criticism.

Pegged beads seem to bring out snobbish responses and accusations of “snagging” or “flossing”.

The convo about how easy it is to catch a fish on one is totally valid and interesting, but not at all the point or intent of this thread.
Perhaps a pegged bead has less chance of being taken deep. Not sure that is the case if you have a very short distance between the hook and bead, but let's just say it is true. It does not remove the chance of damage regardless. I stopped pegging beads when I noticed the much greater frequency of hooking a fish in or near the eye. I'm a bit surprised every fish in the Lower Sac. isn't blind by the end of the fall.

Think you missed Ralph's point about pegging beads being the equivalent of snagging, Greg. If you are intentionally using a method that is designed to hook a fish outside the mouth, you are snagging. Amusing how little this regulation is enforced considering just one weekend in October of writing tickets would probably put the Fly Shop out of business. This is not a moral nor sportsmanship issue, this is what the regulations say. And the hackneyed "but they don't enforce it" reply does not invalidate the regulation any more than folks speeding invalidate the traffic laws.

Plenty of discussions out there about how egg patterns are not really flies, so not sure about the statement that the rest are considered OK. Pegged beads are a special case because of the method used, not whether or not it is a fly. I typically prefer a melted bead approach myself, and if folks do not consider it a fly, that is their problem. I will tell you it is a much less effective way of fishing a bead in my experience, but in general I have found it less harmful to the fish than the other methods tried. YMMV.

[Ralph]

Plenty of discussions out there about how egg patterns are not really flies,

In California at least, not much to discuss, a plastic bead is certainly NOT a fly!
California code:

1.08. ARTIFICIAL FLY.
Any fly constructed by the method known as fly tying.

[cdevine]

In California at least, not much to discuss, a plastic bead is certainly NOT a fly!
California code:

1.08. ARTIFICIAL FLY.
Any fly constructed by the method known as fly tying.



So are you saying fishing a bead is illegal and you can be cited/fined in CA? Fishing a bead is snagging and its also not a fly. That Artificial Fly definition stated above is certainly subject to interpretation especially with synthetic materials now part of the game.

My question then becomes has anybody been cited or know of anybody who has been cited/fined for fishing this method? If I have a little time to kill I'm going to try and call and get an answer. I'm more curious than anything. Certainly don't want anybody to get in trouble.

[Mark Kranhold]

Wait a minute! Is this the steelhead page or are folks just a little antsy right about now do to the lack of steelhead jibber jabber :rolleyes:

[Ralph]

That Artificial Fly definition stated above is certainly subject to interpretation especially with synthetic materials now part of the game.

I agree totally. It is a terrible definition, but I think anyone in the industry, in the sport, or on the side of LE will agree that step one in tying a fly by "the method called fly tying" starts with a hook. There isn't a hook in a bead. A plastic bead isn't a fly by anyone's definition unless it is incorporated into a fly pattern.

I don't have a dog in this race, I truly don't give a shit how the next person fishes. I was asked a question and have been honestly answering your questions ever since. Sorry that you don't like my opinions, but I really don't care. You got my opinion, and if you don't want to hear more, please don't ask 'cause you might not like what I have to say.

[cyama]

My theory is that after you get a little more into fly fishing is that begin to appreciate what fly fishing is all about. Yes fishing beads will land you a lot more fish some say five to one vs nymphs during the egg bite and 8-10 fish vs dry flies if you are a good bead guy. The older I get the less I fish beads. They are good to figure out where the fish are and while you sitting behind the redds you can see where the fish are rising, but there is nothing better than watching a fish rise to a dry fly you tied and the fish jumps a foot two out the water to grab it!!! This is something I learned while watching Bill Lowe fish the Yuba. He used to fish the flats with dry flies during the egg bite! I would be in the riffles below him hooking fish and running after the fish peeling line. Bill would always say something like another great day on the Yuba as he floated past the salmon redds!! His clients always seemed to have a big smile as well.

Also the original point of Gregg's post is correct. Fishing with beads usually hooks the fish on the lip. Fishing with glo bugs or other egg patterns tied on the hook usually hooks fish deeper. I would say that 80-90% of the fish I have caught with beads are inside the mouth. Less than 1% are hooked in the eye, about the same as fishing with any other nymph. Also the only river that you are required to fish artificial flies is Hot Creek. Most special reg rivers say artificial lures this includes treble hooks.

[ycflyfisher]

Gregg started this thread by stating his concern about trout getting hooked deep on egg patterns (beads). I'm wondering if there is a practical reason why a guy can't tie an egg pattern on a circle hook? I mean, other then the fact that the smallest I've seen is a Gama # 8. I'm not an expert on circle hooks but wouldn't that help with the deep hook issue?

I have experimented with flies including egg patterns on non-offset circles. Mainly because an retired guide I know told me of his experiences using circles for his clients that fish bait and how the fish never seem to throw circles.

The same guide predicted that they would fail epically on dead drift and WFS applications, but would perform adequately on the greaseline presentations where you let the line belly purposely and allow the belly to swim the fly. He was correct on all three.

With circles, the fish needs to turn to create tension to pull the bend of the hook into the jaw. If you set before that happens, you generally don't get contact.

[ycflyfisher]

To reiterate (and to kick a super dead horse haha) my position from the start was:

Egg style patterns that are tied on the shank of the hook seem to be taken dangerously deep.

Pegged beads (as shown in my last picture) never seem to be taken deep and allow for an easier hook removal and release.

Egg style patterns tied on the shank seem to get a pass from criticism.

Pegged beads seem to bring out snobbish responses and accusations of “snagging” or “flossing”.

The convo about how easy it is to catch a fish on one is totally valid and interesting, but not at all the point or intent of this thread.

Gregg,

I think it's pretty hilarious that you've got 6 pages of responses, most all of which fail to address your talking points.

Personally, I haven't noticed or experienced a disproportionate amount of tongue/throat/gullet hooked fish on egg patterns, and egg patterns for me consist of (boiled to remove the odor) Mister Twister Exude eggs lashed to the shank of a Daiichi 1150 with the loop of a palomar knot. That puts a noticeable crease in the egg, but the fish don't care. It also keeps the egg out of the hook gap.

How I rig it probably has something to do with it. I use stout tippet to the egg 1 or 2x, and drop a point fly usually an invert pattern on 3x if the bug is a 14 or larger, off the bend of the 1150.

I rig it like this because I think it gets me more grabs because the movement of the egg is limited from being tethered at both ends while the bug is more mobile in the current and can tumble a bit.

The egg is a spherical ball that looks relatively the same from all angles whether it's tumbling or not. Not the case with a PT or larval invert pattern. One of the two flies needs to be dual tethered to fish a tandem rig, and for me it's a no brainer that the dual tethered fly should be the egg.

With the egg tethered at both ends, I seem to deep hook more fish on the invert, not the egg. That's just my anecdotal observations, nothing more.

I've never pegged a bead and have only once fished with a buddy who was big into pegging beads after he came back from Alaska. He's since gone the rubber egg on the shank route.

Fish eggs are a reality wherever there's fish spawning, and eggs can definitely dominate the biomass of the drift. Ignoring that for the sake of doing so, just doesn't fit my definition of working on 'skills'. To me it's no different than 'figuring out' that the fish are keyed in on one distinct phase of an ephemerella/ rithro/ bifila hatch and I just don't get how anyone can equate what amounts to more 'favorable' results to somehow being less work, but clearly we all fish with different goals.

[mogaru]

I agree totally. It is a terrible definition, but I think anyone in the industry, in the sport, or on the side of LE will agree that step one in tying a fly by "the method called fly tying" starts with a hook. There isn't a hook in a bead. A plastic bead isn't a fly by anyone's definition unless it is incorporated into a fly pattern.

I don't have a dog in this race, I truly don't give a shit how the next person fishes. I was asked a question and have been honestly answering your questions ever since. Sorry that you don't like my opinions, but I really don't care. You got my opinion, and if you don't want to hear more, please don't ask 'cause you might not like what I have to say.


There isn't a hook in a tube fly either .......at least initially............

[TahoeJoe]

Point of clarification here, it is quite legal to bead fish in Alaska. The Southcentral regulations -2017 state:

Use of attractor (bead): An attractor (including a bead), when used with an artificial fly, artificial lure, or bare hook must be:
- Either fixed within two inches of the bare hook, fly or lure,
- Or, be free sliding on the line or leader.
- A bead fished on the line above a bare single hook is legal gear in waters where only flies may be used.

So, it's legal but more than two inches is deemed to be snagging.

Also from http://peninsulaclarion.com/stories/022102/out_022102out0030001.shtml#.WjldEVWnFaQ

Soldotna biologist Bruce King of the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, which writes the regulations and is responsible for managing the fishery, said all scientific evidence indicates that pegging beads within two inches of the hook doesn't cause any more fisheries problems than pegging beads at the hook or letting them float free.

[EricO]

Nothing to add to pegging beads.

For pizza Gregg...I'm with you. Pineapple adds that subtle sweetness that completes a pizza.

My go to is: Pepperoni, mushroom, ham and pineapple. Heavenly.

Btw, great report...nice getting after it when it's winter, and having results to boot!

There is a great pizza joint off Glenshire. In fair weather, you can sit outside
and look over cool meadows and nice homes. A few good beer taps too.

http://www.glenshirepizza.com/

Eric

[Darian]

Addressing the original question, if you're a person who likes to practice C&R, hooking fish deeply would cause more damage than a quick release of a fish hooked in or near the mouth. With that in mind, the choice off fly/lure is easy (based on the choice of egg patterns or pegged beads by the original poster). I would choose the fly/lure that in my experience causes least damage to fish.

As to the regs, perhaps the reason for ambiguity in defining what is a fly is due to the vast number of differing opinions about what is a fly and the fact that fly patterns and materials have been and continue to edvolve. Considering the difficulty in defining what is a fly, I'm not surprised that DFW chose a simple description.

According to the section of the regs describing snagging, (paraphrasing) if a fish is hooked outside the mouth it has been snagged and must be released. The intent of the fish in striking the lure has absolutely nothing to do with it and, unless you're using a fly/lure that is actually defined as illegal in the code, the fly/lure doesn't figure into the definition of snagging either. IMO, this only becomes an issue for enforcement if you're hooking fish outside the mouth and keeping them.

[E.Drucker]

Fishing a pegged bead properly is in no way "snagging", fish. Fish eat eggs, fish eat bugs, fish eat other fish. As fly fishermen we fish those patterns. So when one is fishing an egg pattern he is simply matching the "hatch". Just because someone is using a pattern that 'ONE", doesn't agree with does not mean they are snagging.

Eggs are a controversial pattern...beads even more so. They work great and are part of a fishes diet. Some purists will turn their noses up at those fishing those said patterns. So be it. It leaves more egg eaters for me ;)

Fuckin' A my brother. You know where I stand

[Gregg]

ahhh yessss, 7 pages and 3100 views, I guess this is controversial haha.

Went back out yesterday and actually ran into Jim / Bigfly at Glenshire for the first time, super nice to meet you in real life finally Jim.

Jim actually walked me and a buddy down to the water and we seined the water oddly enough for my first time ever. I was blown away at what's crawling around down there at a time of the year I didn't expect to find much. To give it a fair shake I fished golden stones, green drake nymphs, caddis pupae, midges and everything else we saw on the net and matched flies to bugs pretty darn close...but no love from the trouts. I'm gonna partially chalk it up to the guides freezing on every cast making mending and bumping line near impossible with a lighter terminal rig and also me feeling near drunk wading out there as my feet went numb, but I know mostly that fishing matching patterns / true flies is overall more difficult where as a dumb bead just bounces around and can look unnatural and still be ok.

All that being said, switched back to the legs and eggs combo and started poking fish, a couple of the best looking ones I've found lately.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/EGMiDs.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poEGMiDsj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/kk99yI.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pokk99yIj)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/J8yeO1.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poJ8yeO1j)


Interesting side note, sometime throughout the day someone siphoned a bunch of gas from my tank while I was upstream...first time it's happened to me and an unusual spot for someone to come down to for a few gallons, but guess I'll have to check back in more often / randomly when I'm down there next. Someone could probably find themselves in a pretty bad spot to get caught swooping gas / messing with someone's truck I'd imagine...

[cdevine]

Awesome you are getting out so much even with the numbing cold and trying different things. Tough to not revert back to what is working. Weird on the gas thing. Did you notice your gauge lower or was there visible signs? If somebody's in a bind it's easier to ask for help I would think. But if you are siphoning gas you probably have some other issues.

[Gregg]

Yea, it was just under 1/2 tank when I parked it and totally empty when I got back in. Obvious fingerprint smudges on the tank door through the road grime. If someone's in a spot I'd always throw them a few bucks, but like you said, person probably has other issues. Will just be watching a bit closer...

[amoeba]

I'm OK with beads...pineapple on pizza, however, is just plain wrong.

[Steve S]

Why not be consistent and peg all your flies?!

[John Sv]

A few years back there was a company that tried to develop that basically. Tiny hook that was set away from the fly if memory serves. Mofflet? Something like that.

[amoeba]

Why not be consistent and peg all your flies?!


I'm OK with that if it works. Does it?

[hwchubb]

I don’t fish pegged eggs simply because the idea never appealed to me - which, along with my insistence on the swing fly, probably explains my empty 2017 steelhead card... But the arguments here that a closely pegged egg result in hookups in the mouth do seem to make sense.

That said, I’d rather spend my time arguing with those that would take our water, gut the clean water regs, etc. I worry that pegged eggs vs traditional flies, bobber vs swung, gear vs fly, and other arguments are going to divide and conquer, and ultimately play into the hands of those who would gain at the expense of all of us who enjoy the outdoors. We all have a common interest in the larger picture...

[Dragking]

So are you saying fishing a bead is illegal and you can be cited/fined in CA? Fishing a bead is snagging and its also not a fly. That Artificial Fly definition stated above is certainly subject to interpretation especially with synthetic materials now part of the game.

My question then becomes has anybody been cited or know of anybody who has been cited/fined for fishing this method? If I have a little time to kill I'm going to try and call and get an answer. I'm more curious than anything. Certainly don't want anybody to get in trouble.

I fish beads and Boles Bazooka-style eggs occasionally for fall run steelhead (typically in buckets behind active salmon redds) and for winter steelhead. About a month ago there was a warden pulling people over on the Trinity, checking licenses, cards, flies, etc. I was running a bead pegged about a pinky finger's length from a small, barbless egg hook. (For what it's worth, I've never had any issues with bad/deep hooks using this method.) The warden looked at the barb and that's all. Just my experience with one warden...not saying this CDFW policy or anything.

If memory serves, a few years back CDFW was soliciting comments/feedback on regs to prohibit flossing, and I think the idea was to prohibit lining fish but not necessarily use of beads. Maybe not, I can't remember.

[cdevine]

Good feedback. It certainly has a shade of gray to it but I can't find anything that says its illegal nor has anybody told of an experience that he/she knows of somebody actually being cited/fined in the state of CA. My experience has been wardens are very strict when it comes to crimping barbs. And they should be.

[k9mark]

Food for thought here. If we know that certain egg patterns can be taken to deep causing injury or mortality in fish, why fish it? If we know pegged eggs can hook a fish outside the mouth possibly causing injury to the eye, why fish it? Interestingly, if we look at the following reg as mentioned earlier it states;

"Article 1. 2.00 (b) b) Snagging is prohibited. Snagging is defined as impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than inside the mouth by use of a hook, hooks, gaff , or other mechanical implement."

"(c) It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait or artificial lure inside its mouth."

In reading this reg we clearly see snagging is a prohibited act. No question there obviously. It further defines it as " impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than inside the mouth". We know that pegged eggs can do this.

The rub here is the DFW has bigger "Fish to fry" than worrying about this. But the reg is clear and if I had to take this into court, I feel quite confident I would garner a conviction re: pegged eggs.

[ycflyfisher]

Food for thought here. If we know that certain egg patterns can be taken to deep causing injury or mortality in fish, why fish it? If we know pegged eggs can hook a fish outside the mouth possibly causing injury to the eye, why fish it? Interestingly, if we look at the following reg as mentioned earlier it states;

"Article 1. 2.00 (b) b) Snagging is prohibited. Snagging is defined as impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than inside the mouth by use of a hook, hooks, gaff , or other mechanical implement."

"(c) It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait or artificial lure inside its mouth."

In reading this reg we clearly see snagging is a prohibited act. No question there obviously. It further defines it as " impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than inside the mouth". We know that pegged eggs can do this.

The rub here is the DFW has bigger "Fish to fry" than worrying about this. But the reg is clear and if I had to take this into court, I feel quite confident I would garner a conviction re: pegged eggs.

I'm not a lawyer or a LEO and I wouldn't claim to know any more than most anglers about CA law, but I don't see this as cut and dried as you seem to.

"Article 1. 2.00 (b) b) Snagging is prohibited. Snagging is defined as impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than inside the mouth by use of a hook, hooks, gaff , or other mechanical implement."

To me the word attempting seems to more than just imply willful intent to snag; where "impaling" is successful willful intent, and "attempting to impale" is unsuccessful willful intent.

Agree that pegged beads have the potential to snag, but so does every other fly pattern. I've inadvertently snagged fish on refused dries (skated and dead drifted), subsurface patterns under a bobber, and on patterns design to fish on downstream presentations under tension. I'd further argue that anyone who hasn't, just hasn't fished enough.

I've never done anything except own up and pay the fine for any infractions of the law I've ever been ever been cited for, and I don't peg beads, but if I did in the manner that Gregg is describing and was cited for it, I'd be showing up for court.

The real problem IMO is we've just got too damned many laws in the People's Republic and more than just a few of 'em are written way too ambiguously.

[Darian]

ycflyfisher,.... I chose to treat the situation of using a fly/pegged bead as applied to snagging on an individual fish. If a fish is hooked outside the mouth, its is illegally hooked and must be released. I concur with your description of intent required to prove snagging. I believe that the drafters of the language in the section were attempting to describe those who deliberately attempt to snag fish. We've all seen the guys or there lost or abandoned very large treble hooks with lead wrapped shanks and/or over legal weight jigs with larger than legal sized trebles and it seems to me that's who is being targeted by this section, not the fly guy's who occasionally hook a fish outside the mouth and release the fish.

I've seen some borderline situations before. Once on the lower Eel River at Singley Pool in a low water year (before the low water closures were adopted) where Salmon were stacked up in a deep, confined hole and fly guys were anchored in prams in shallow water, casting to and regularly hooking some very nice fish. Those fish were all released. Now, I was fishing downstream and not having a lot of luck as the hole where the fish were was locked up by the fly guys in prams. After the group quit fishing, I saw one of the fly guys was a person I knew. So, I asked to see the fly they were using to catch all of those Salmon and was shown a silver Comet with a white saddle hackle tail and the same for hackle with bead chain eyes, tied on a short shank 1/0 hook. He, also, told me none of the fish hooked took the fly in the mouth. They were all snagged/released. Technically, this was legal (or at least they thought it was) as the fish were released, unharmed. But, to me that was still snagging. This situation was so obvious that wardens couldn't have missed it. Yet none were present. So, maybe the regs on this subject are ambiguous or low priority.... :confused:

[k9mark]

I'm not a lawyer or a LEO and I wouldn't claim to know any more than most anglers about CA law, but I don't see this as cut and dried as you seem to.

"Article 1. 2.00 (b) b) Snagging is prohibited. Snagging is defined as impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than inside the mouth by use of a hook, hooks, gaff , or other mechanical implement."

To me the word attempting seems to more than just imply willful intent to snag; where "impaling" is successful willful intent, and "attempting to impale" is unsuccessful willful intent.

Agree that pegged beads have the potential to snag, but so does every other fly pattern. I've inadvertently snagged fish on refused dries (skated and dead drifted), subsurface patterns under a bobber, and on patterns design to fish on downstream presentations under tension. I'd further argue that anyone who hasn't, just hasn't fished enough.

I've never done anything except own up and pay the fine for any infractions of the law I've ever been ever been cited for, and I don't peg beads, but if I did in the manner that Gregg is describing and was cited for it, I'd be showing up for court.

The real problem IMO is we've just got too damned many laws in the People's Republic and more than just a few of 'em are written way too ambiguously.


I completely understand what your saying. I only offer what the law states clearly: "impaling or attempting to impale". Pegged eggs do this more so and its well known. Like I said, its not really a big deal for the DFW. Its the individuals decision. My confidence in conviction is based on 30 yrs in Law Enforcement if I had to prosecute this. Bottom line for me is to do the right thing when it comes to a technique that would cause unnecessary harm.

[Gregg]

So I realized I made a big mistake in my initial post on this topic. I wrote "When I fish a pegged bead the hook isn’t almost ALWAYS in the jaw, typically on the outside, and I can unhook and release the fish while it’s entirely in the water without ever touching it". When I said "typically on the outside" in my brain I was thinking on the actual jaw as opposed to inside the mouth like on the tongue or down the throat. It didn't occur to me at all that people would take this to be "in the eyeball" or "in the gills" or on the fin", and in reading some of these responses I'm inclined to believe that it might be interpreted that way. After posting this I've been on the water a bunch and have messed with pegged beads along with various other rigs because now that I was actually thinking about it, I wanted to see what the actual on the water outcome was. I'm completely convinced that a properly pegged bead hooks the fish in a completely safe and ethical manner a vast majority of the time. Since posting "on the outside of the mouth" I actually haven't hooked a fish on the outer rim of the jaw a single time. Every hook has set right inside the jaw, and like I stated, they were smooth and easy to remove without handling the fish. In my experience, this has proven to be the most humane and ethical experience. I did foul hook a handful of fish on a dropper over the last couple weeks, sometimes in the tail and a couple on the belly, using a super small midge pattern under a stonefly. I've also foul hooked fish more frequently on dries, especially younger / juvenile fish that attack it more aggressively. I'm not trying to be some champion of the pegged bead or anything, I'm just more and more convinced that people don't actually understand it and are relaying hearsay from people they respect, and not from actually trying it for themselves. I do this also with things and commonly end up being proven wrong because I wanted my bias to be true, even before proof or evidence.

It would be cool if this thread ended up teaching someone how to properly peg a bead if that's what they choose to do, I don't remember ever seeing it clearly described anywhere, and it seems that some people have some really weird setups involving multiple beads a foot above the hook or something insane. A rig like that never occurred to me and maybe seems more like an invented or outdated scenario to shift the conversation to an extreme / outlier than based in any reality.

Again, if a pegged bead is just too effective I'm on board with that conversation. It totally is, and I'm in agreement. But if you're trying to push the narrative that a properly pegged bead is an attempt at snagging or does more harm to a fish that any other setup, you're just straight up wrong. But don't take my word for it, go rig one up and try it for yourself, if even just for the sake of understanding and not as a regular mix of your gear.