DF&W trout planting gripe

[JAWallace]

I spent a day fishing with Brian Chan in B.C. recently, and besides probably the best day of trout fishing I've ever had on stillwater, I learned how different B.C. is in the importance they attach to their trout plants.

Nearly all the waters are Kamloops were fishless with little to no structure prior to the province planting program. Brian said that B.C. would never consider planting catchables in these lakes--all plants as I understood it were fingerling plants. The fish I got, about 20 total and only three under 18" were 2016 fingerling plants, according to Brian, with a stated survival rate of almost 90%.

Back here in the states, at least in California, the triploids have been a failure in several regions, certainly in our local region. The raceways are too crowded, the water a few degrees too warm, and they don't grow nearly as fast as expected. Now we're seeing the DFW spin go from "put and take" to "put and grow," probably because last year most of the current plants were down to about 8".

It's ludicrous and insulting to think that people won't keep an 8" trout, of course they will, that's what most trout fishermen do. My question is fairly simple, why doesn't DFW use more fingerling plants like B.C.? While they'd never survive well in lakes with mixed species that contain bass, there are plenty of upper elevation lakes that are monoculture with trout only, and I cannot understand why DFW has moved almost entirely out of the fingerling plant mode, do you? I cannot imagine the cost being much different.

After volunteering for a season at the hatchery, I think I have a pretty good idea why, but I could be wrong. Simply, the upper executives just don't seem to give a shit about trout other than generating license sales, as most of their income aside from licenses comes from the Fed for salmon. This is why they legalized spearfishing for Stripers a few years ago--the few Stripers the better as they are predators for the salmon fry. In fairness, the local people at DFW are very dedicated to trying to create a good fishing experience, but there's only so much they can do with policies they don't control. Again, I'm speculating, but I'm pretty sure I'm on somewhat the right track.

Why do you think we have nearly no fingerling plants left in CA?

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Brian Chan runs that area around Kamloops very well.

I can imagine that planting the fish smaller would really be cool, producing a much better fish.

The fisheries folks in New Zealand takes care of their streams and lakes so they don't have to depend on planting.

.

[Darian]

Maybe the strategy for planters in CA is to achieve size quickly to please fishers who, in the past have demanded that DFW plant large fish to improve the quality of the catch....(???) Some historical perspective: when I was growing up and as a young adult, the standard planter was a 6" fish. To catch a larger fish was rare. In fact, I have a DFG booklet from the 60's that contains a photo of Brown Trout anywhere from 6 to 10 pounds in weight being netted from Convict lake to improve the survival rate of planters there. The thought was that quantity was better than quality. There was a heavy negative reaction go that and other photo's of the same practice by fisherman and fishing clubs and, over the years the stocking policy was changed to quality over quantity. Most of my friends and relatives went out of state to find better, higher quality Trout fishing.

Seems difficult to compare what happens in Canada to here.

[Sheepdog8404]

Maybe the state should plant more browns in the waters where even those mutant rainbows barely survive. I get the whole native trout ideology and fully support it. But there needs to be a point at which they realize a self sustaining fishery is equally as important too.

[Idadon]

Idaho seems to of worked this whole problem out. We've got put-&-take water and a whole bunch of trophy water which is left alone to fend for itself. My local lake, Ririe Resevoir, gets planted every Monday from May to August with 13-14 inch rainbows to keep the kids and fish eaters happy. Monday is a special day for the Eagles & Ospreys too. Ririe is on Willow Creek, a major tributary to the South Fork of the Snake, which is a wild trout designated water. Rainbows and rainbow/cutt hybrids are not welcome in the South Fork so anglers are urged to harvest them to promote Cutties. In theory the planters are not able to pass Ririe's dam so all works well. The guides have the South Fork (and plenty of 16-18 inch Cutts and Hybrids) and and the local Power Bait crowd get their fix of nice size Bows for the skillet.

I guess all-in-all Idaho has worked it out pretty good. Plenty of trout to eat and plenty of places for those of us that put a premium stream born fish. But even up here F&G mostly plants the 12+ inch pellet eaters. I remember reading once that hatchery fish can reach 12" in a year or less while a stream born Bow on the Henrys Fork takes 2+ years to get there. In the end it's all about numbers and keeping the $ coming in.

[Lew Riffle]

Our situation here in California is much more complex than anywhere else that plants trout. Most of that comes from trying to make California like everywhere else that plants trout. We have made a lot of mistakes that have to be dealt with. We have a lot of native salmonids and just can't go about throwing hatchery fish in waters they don't belong. It's simple to advocate for fish when you have just a few to help out and make a fishery. Here in California we have many fish and environs to advocate for and in most cases they do not make for a great fishery that our big population of humans thinks it deserves.
Will we see the planting of the right fish in the right places in the future? Will we have kern river rainbows in the main fork of the Kern? Lahotian cuts on the eastside of the Sierra? Red bands in the Upper Sac drainages? These programs are underway and have been for decades and maybe some will be a success unlike the mess with triploids. We are California and unlike anywhere else will continue to be California. It's a matter of faith and diligence to support this beyond picking up your rod and going fishing.

[JAWallace]

Triploids are an easy solution that most states are using now, so is Canada. My understanding from DFW is California is exclusively Rainbow triploids, no diploid Rainbows anywhere. No Browns are being planted by the state now anywhere, however some utility companies (SMUD, PG&E) do in some waters. What DFW is doing, if anything, to protect purity in strains such as the Eagle Lake rainbow I don't know but I think they are in some regions.

Oregon does protect some strains, notably the Deschutes Redband trout found in Crane Prairie, known as Crainbows. They are now illegal to keep, and can be identified with an unclipped anal fin. They also stock two other strains in Craine, both triploids, and fins clipped for limited harvest. Oregon also buys Blackwater trout from Canada in limited numbers. They are in East Lake, not sure where else. ODFW gal told me they were hard to get as Canada does not export many Blackwaters.

Have you seen the trout in Pardee this year? Beautiful, large rainbows, a cross between freshwater rainbows and steelhead according to the people I met with at the Mokelumne hatchery. They got special funding for them, and they are really near perfect trout. It does cost more to breed these fish, and with license sales waning in CA I'm sure there's always funding challenges. Maybe some of Brown's gas tax income could be diverted :mad:

[JayDubP]

Does CDFW plant fish in Catch & Release waters & if so can these fish reproduce? Aren't there legal issues with planting non-native fish that can reproduce?

I looked at their 2017 planting schedule and it all appears to be "Put & Take".

I read that CDFW has started planting "sub-catchable Pilot Peak Lahontan cutthroat trout" in several lakes near Truckee.

[Lew Riffle]

DFW planted diploid rainbows in Hot Creek( a special regulation wild trout stream) last summer. In casual conversation with some of the DFW folks they are going to be planting more diploids were they can. Triploids are not going to be used exclusively and were never intended to be so...only a band aid on a sick process. The legal issues have subsided some but the insanity continues whereby loophole rules allow private planting where DFW can not having the same effect that DFG as doing before the suit. The outcome is that DFW has adapted their budgets to not plant anymore where and on the level they did before the suit from CBD nearly decade ago. I think we will see some good planting programs with real fish in the future along with the outcry that DFW is not doing their job planting like they used to.

[JAWallace]

{"a cross between freshwater rainbows and steelhead "}
A trout is a steelhead, specifically designated as a trout that has access to the ocean and exceeds 16". There maybe evolution strain variances. They all have the ability to go in salt and then back again. If it gets enough food it will grow. Few lakes have that much food.
Just my opinion from what I have read. Of course, however fresh water trout have been bred with their anadromous siblings for years.

[JAWallace]

DFW planted diploid rainbows in Hot Creek( a special regulation wild trout stream) last summer. Wild Trout and Heritage Trout rivers and lakes have entirely different regulations and management than the general regulation waters--those were the intended focus of the post, thanks.

[cyama]

A lot can be learned on how Pyramid is managed. This year was pretty crazy as about half the lake was closed due to road conditions, but I think the slot limit and the limit on how many fish can be kept really helps. The daily fee helps to pay for the hatchery and well the Pilot Peak fish grow like weeds!!! Just imagine if Heenan, Indian Lake, Lake Tahoe, Boca, Stampede, Davis, Frenchmen and even the new lake Webber was managed better. Having slot limits and maybe even a small fee to pay for the expenses would go a long way. I think lots of people take home and kill big fish only to find out they taste like mud... Shoot fishing at Pyramid this year I really only saw a few people keep fish. I saw one guy trying to give away a fish that was gut hooked and finally one guy said, I will cook it up and feed it to my dogs... I think a slot limit of 15 to 17 inches and a two fish limit is way better than five fish of any size. I think Jonny B is working on this for Davis, but it would make a lot of sense for many of our lakes. Also what is up with CDFW wasting time and money on those little salmon that are non-native to the Lake Tahoe area. Can't remember the name right now. They go and collect eggs and raise them in hatcheries.

[Lew Riffle]

Sorry that your thread got off your intended focus but that was not to clear if not a bad assumption that there is a division in the DFW between general waters and special regulation waters of much significance anymore. DFW is addressing this problem becuase they have to. General regulation waters got into trouble with planting because there was little management and monitoring after the plants. With the passage of AB7 we saw a shift(all be it a contrived agenda form the original intent of this Bill) of license monies!/3 of them) going toward sustainable wild trout waters and the program that runs them. As a result we are seeing long range projects going on and not strapped to the yearly budget struggles and can kicking as in the past. We have Jeff Weaver in charge and he impresses me with his dogged passion to right the wrongs and have places to fish for our offspring.....not just cow tow to short term politics and continued bad management due to local parasitic vendors wanting the same ole same ole. This is were of DFW management sees the solution to what you are griping about and a solution to the oversight from DFG planting general regulation waters. This agenda has been going on since the early 70's and now has finally gained some steam with the idea that it is a solution that will work better than the continued put an take as a necessity. The suit by CBD changed the hatchery program in California for better or worse.

[John Sv]

"Also what is up with CDFW wasting time and money on those little salmon that are non-native to the Lake Tahoe area. Can't remember the name right now. They go and collect eggs and raise them in hatcheries."

Kokanee are highly prized. Maybe not by fly fishermen, but gear fishermen love them. Quite a large constituency for them.
Plus they taste great!
Agree with you on slot limits, and that the biggies taste like mud.