Sink Tip line Dumping/Kicking over/Piling up issue

[Sheepdog8404]

Question for you folks on here who fish sink tip lines a lot...

I noticed this happening with a sink tip line my buddy and I were casting this evening. His line was a 17' piece of level T8 welded to a floating running line. I also noticed this very same thing with my WF7I/S8 Rio InTouch Outbound Short when I was fishing for Stripers last summer.

The best way I can describe the phenomenon is that while the line is shooting and turning over, at the very end the line will aggressively "kick over" and dump the fly, leader and last few feet of the fly line in a big pile rather than laying out nicely like we are all used to seeing when fishing floating lines, long leaders and dry flies.

I figured maybe this was caused by fishing with too light of a fly with not enough mass/drag on the terminal end of the line as it is shooting. But the problem still persisted even after tying on a substantially larger and heavier fly. Perhaps a leader adjustment would fix it? Maybe a longer leader or one that is tapered rather than just a level piece of mono?

Any help and advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks for looking.

[Mr T]

I have found that a short head will do this- seems it just doesn't have the length to "roll" out.

My outbound does the same thing, it is a bit better than a full sinking head, but it does it.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

On the end of your floating running line you need about 10 feet of something like a slower sinking piece of fly line then your 17' piece of T8 to make it turn over slower.

This could be something like Type 6 sinking or Intermediate or even a floating section.






I think that many of the Striper guys who throw lots of T14 and Leadcore line recommend no shorter than 28 feet of head.


Many years ago we used integrated 10' sinktips on weight forward floating lines.





They did the same thing, called dumping.


To stop this dumping sometimes people would add for leader butt length but that might defeat the idea of getting your fly down on a fast sinking line.

If you are having dumping or premature turn over you need to lengthen something like the head/belly/tip combination.


Short casting = short belly/head



Long casting = long belly/head



Do not over line short (5 - 15') integrated sinktips.

.

[JasonB]

I'm surprised at the lack of understanding here ... sounds like a perfect scenario for a new rod! :cool:

Of course if that doesn't do it, perhaps a new line would smooth things out a bit more. Ultimately you may end up needing a new reel too. I'm sure your wife will understand the need once you've explained the issues with casting dynamics in detail...
JB

[Sheepdog8404]

Thanks for the insight, Bill. While all of what you said makes sense, I'm having a real hard time believing that a company like Rio designed a $90 fly line without including taper and sink rate details like the ones you've stated. Granted, they have been known to screw up from time to time but this is a line that has been around for a while and raved about since day one.

Jason, I have actually been thinking about "solving the issue" with a new 8 or 9wt setup... Just need to convince myself that it is the right thing to do after buying a new boat. haha

[tcorfey]

In my experience using a 9' 6wt rod:

The dump action was caused by a loss of energy at the end of the cast. I was using an Outbound Short with a 7-10' sink tip and either a cone head wooly bugger or clouser I would use 3-4' of 2x or 1x leader attached to the sink-tip line. To solve this when casting I would always have a couple of feet of the head inside the rod and then shoot from there. If I allowed the running line to get outside the guides on the back cast I would get a hinge in the cast which would drain energy and then get a dumping action at the end of the line due to ineffective energy transfer.

Another scenario that may look like a dump was because I aimed to low with my cast and rather than a dump, the line still had energy but would go directly in to the water with the leader and fly following it in. For this scenario I would just aim higher to keep the end of the sink tip from entering the water before the leader had straightened.

Some things to look in to anyway.

Regards,

Tim C.

[mogaru]

Sink tips (10' or 15') always dump, always. The only way to avoid it is to move to an integrated line with a sink tip 25' or longer (30'). Try it and you will see the difference.

[Sheepdog8404]

In my experience using a 9' 6wt rod:

The dump action was caused by a loss of energy at the end of the cast. I was using an Outbound Short with a 7-10' sink tip and either a cone head wooly bugger or clouser I would use 3-4' of 2x or 1x leader attached to the sink-tip line. To solve this when casting I would always have a couple of feet of the head inside the rod and then shoot from there. If I allowed the running line to get outside the guides on the back cast I would get a hinge in the cast which would drain energy and then get a dumping action at the end of the line due to ineffective energy transfer.

Another scenario that may look like a dump was because I aimed to low with my cast and rather than a dump, the line still had energy but would go directly in to the water with the leader and fly following it in. For this scenario I would just aim higher to keep the end of the sink tip from entering the water before the leader had straightened.

Some things to look in to anyway.

Regards,

Tim C.

Thanks Tim. I'll give those ideas a go next time im out casting.


Sink tips (10' or 15') always dump, always. The only way to avoid it is to move to an integrated line with a sink tip 25' or longer (30'). Try it and you will see the difference.

The lines in question are integrated lines. Not just tips.

[Sheepdog8404]

The loop tackle adapted system uses tapered tips. The belly is flat with a short taper on each end. Most T sinking line is flat, your shooting head belly is tapered with a long flat area to the tip so you are adding 17' more flat line to that area than the inertia can handle so it dies.
[ I think]

I found that a delta long belly line is difficult too use T material with, but a Loop tapered tip on a Delta works a little better for me.

It sounds like you think I'm referring to Spey tips. I'm talking about integrated sink tip lines for a singlehand rod. My line is a Rio Outbound Short and the line my buddy is using is a floating running line welded to a 17' length of T8 which creates a sink tip line much like a Teeney T130 sink tip line.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

You might call the shop on the weekend and ask Andy Guibord about you issues......

[Charlie S]

I did have issues with several different line combo, one of which was the same line you are using but a #6 sink. I finally rigged up with a TFO BVK 10 ft 6 wt. This rod is far from the fast rods in use today and the slower rod coupled with slowing down the stroke and casting high (always a good idea with any type of head) resulted in considerably better results.

[cyama]

Without watching you cast I would say with that light of a sinking line you are not letting the rod load on the backcast. Look back on the backcast and make sure the rod is loaded. Line dump is usually related to line speed. I don't think it is the line. Take a video and send it to a someone like Jp or Andy. The old school guys used to cast amnesia and shooting heads which are much harder to cast. Those guys can shoot a line like nobody's business. The new integrated lines should shoot farther than the old lines. So many factors, so many rods out there and whatever. What are fishing for. If your buddy is fishing that line which is equal to a Teeny 130 you could put on a super fast sink leader on a floating line. Super easy to cast if you crashing the banks for bass or trout.

[mogaru]

[QUOTE=Sheepdog8404;174619]Thanks Tim. I'll give those ideas a go next time im out casting.



The lines in question are integrated lines. Not just tips.[/QUOTE

What I mean is regardless if the line is integrated or not a short tip (10' or 15') always dumps. The only way to avoid it is to cast a line with a longer tip (25' or longer).