Thomas & Thomas 5wt first impressions

[luckydude]

So my trout unlimited 5wt showed up yesterday and I took it out this morning for a few casts. I was out in my pasture, not on water. In case anyone actually reads this, let me first say I'm far from an expert caster, I can't spey cast, I single haul, etc. That said, I've been fly fishing for around 40 years, I've been on a few guided trips and when the guides stopped laughing at my wacky style they said "weird but you can actually put the fly where you want. Shrug." With a 5 wt with no wind I'm accurate with a hopper to about 40 feet, less if I'm casting into the wind. That's with a Hardy Zenith, I can do a little better with a Sage Z axis but that's overlined to 6 wt line. Maybe 50 feet. I can cast a little farther but my aim goes way off.

OK, enough about (lack of) casting skills, on to the T&T.

My first impression was "wow, this thing is a bullet". I can cast about 10 feet more line than I can with the Hardy. It was windy and it was super easy to make nice tight loops into the wind. I had no fly on, did have a leader, and I could easily push out to 45 feet plus the leader and have it unroll and land nicely.

That said, it reminds me of the Z axis, it's very stiff. Things changed dramatically when I shortened up to about 20 feet of line plus leader. The rod feels like a stick at that length. The Hardy feels much much nicer close in. There is no comparison, it wasn't a slight difference, it was a huge difference.

I think a lot of naive people will love this rod because you can push more line with it. But pushing lots of line, in my opinion, has a lot more to do with the skill of the caster than the rod. Yes, this rod gives me another 10 feet but I suspect a good caster could cast twice as far with either rod. I handed my Hardy to Joe Sowerby (Montana guide) and he promptly started spey casting with it, had 80 feet of line out in no time.

Personally, I'm not that all thrilled with the T&T. It's very nice to look at, nice craftsmanship, but the blank is way to stiff for a 5 wt. My Z axis is at Sage getting repaired, so I'm going from memory, the T&T feels stiffer than the Z.

I know I can overline it, I'll try that, but I'm not that comfortable with overlining the rod, that's always sort of felt weird to me, if I want a 6 wt I'll buy a 6 wt. If I'm fishing a 6 wt I'm fishing bigger fish and I worry about the smaller rod's ability to turn a bigger fish.

[pause while I go try it with some 6 wt line]

Wow, this is a 6wt rod. Big difference in close in feel with 6 wt. I suspect you could put 7 wt on this rod. Easily hit the target repeatedly, into the wind, at 50 feet of line plus the leader.

So would I go out and buy this rod? Nope, the Z axis is similar enough, I don't need two overlined "5" wts. I'll wait for the Z-axis to come back and pick one of them and sell the other. It is a pretty rod if that floats your boat (I've never really cared how they look, I care how they work).

[luckydude]

So yesterday I stumbled onto a Ross Evolution (the older one) in a 7wt with a RIO Striper DC sink tip 26ft 350gr line on it (whatever that is, it looks like a sinking line for fishing streamers). Super nice reel BTW.

I put that on the T&T 5wt and played around. The first thing I figured out is I suck at casting this line, the tip of the line "sunk" and would hit the grass as it went by me on my forward cast. I also learned that my single haul "style" is no bueno for this line, it wants you to double haul. Which I'm learning very very slowly, I'm sure you guys would laugh your butts off watching me flail around.

The second thing is that the T&T is so stuff that it loves this heavy line. I just don't see how they can call that a 5wt. I'm still concerned that over lining
it by 2 wts and then trying to fight bigger fish on it is gonna break the rod. Is that a thing? Do people overline rods that much?

[luckydude]

Got my Sage 5wt Z-axis back from repairs so I went out and cast that against the Thomas and Thomas.
Both were cast with the same reel and line, overlined with Rio Gold WF6.

I never thought I'd say the Z-axis was "soft" but compared to the T&T it is.
The T&T can push line further and it makes really nice tight loops into the wind.
The Z-axis is softer, nicer close in, maybe gives up 5 feet in overall distance
but it turns over the line and leader "nicer" than the T&T.

I was really hoping I'd like the T&T better because I think it is easier to sell
the Z-axis. At this point I'm not sure which one I like better.

[bigfly]

It sounds like you need to get on the water.....
For what it's worth...I overline all my rods.
I'm not casting to fish at twenty feet, but the heavier line allows close range with clients and a stiffer rod.
You won't break the rod, not to worry.
You bring that stick up here and we will get you straightened out toots sweet.....
My rule is, don't by a brand name, buy the cast.....
Sounds like it may make a nymph stick, or a streamer rod, or for far away with a big dry.
It will sell fine, to a guy who thinks Brand....


Jim

[epzamora]

T&T make a range of rods. A buddy of mine is dreaming about the "brand" (with his beer budget). After reading your experiences, which model T&T is this TU 5wt rod based upon? Just curious.

eric
fresno, ca.

[luckydude]

T&T make a range of rods. A buddy of mine is dreaming about the "brand" (with his beer budget). After reading your experiences, which model T&T is this TU 5wt rod based upon? Just curious.

eric
fresno, ca.

It's the Avantt model.

[dynaflow]

I often wonder why people buy a fast action rod then upline to slow it down,given that there's plenty of heavier short-headed lines out there that allow you to stay with the same designation as the rod weight...e.g.using a 7wt.Redfish line on a fast action 7wt.rod for Bonefish...plus casting in the wind with uplined lines makes the job even harder.

[Bob G]

Well said!

[bigfly]

Guess you need to try it to see.
After 40 years, I can always spot a guy trying too hard to get the job done....
I make a point to ask what line they are using....always the rod rating.
So I always say, "you can lead a fisherman to water, but you can't make them think."
The rod stores the energy, but the line delivers it.......
If you come by with your stuff and cast it next to mine, I can help ya see the difference.
Part of the fly fishing hold up, is left over dry fly thinking from the UK.
Much like that pesky vertical set.....
My life was better for the change to a heavier line.....and a sweep set.....

Jim

[dynaflow]

Hi Jim,I'm well aware that uplining assists loading the rod...my point is that if you can cast you shouldn't need to...uplining means fatter lines that make delivering the fly actually more difficult in the wind (to put it in perspective,I only fish the salt).I also appreciate that you may have clients who benefit from uplining,but IMHO they may be better off getting casting lessons.
Cheers

[luckydude]

Hi Jim,I'm well aware that uplining assists loading the rod...my point is that if you can cast you shouldn't need to...uplining means fatter lines that make delivering the fly actually more difficult in the wind (to put it in perspective,I only fish the salt).I also appreciate that you may have clients who benefit from uplining,but IMHO they may be better off getting casting lessons.
Cheers

I think if you cast this T&T you'd change your tune. It's an extremely fast rod, anything less than 35-40 feet of 6 wt line just doesn't load the rod, it's the classic broomstick. It's much closer to a 7wt rod if you want the rod to match the line, maybe 6.5.

I am not a fan of rods like this, if I want to cast a 7wt line then I will get a rod that wants a 7wt line. I kinda want my 5wts to want a 5wt line. It's not all about distance, presentation matters to a lot of spooky trout. If I have to overline the rod to make it work right then it sort of misses the point. I don't want to be casting a 6wt line in pocket water. I'll admit that it's sort of fun to line it with 6wt and see how far I can push it but if I really wanted more distance I'd put a shooting head in there. It's sort of silly to be trying to get a big cast out there with a small line.

Just by contrast, I've got a little Sage Vantage 7.5 ft 3 wt that is properly sized to the line, if you put a 4 wt line in there the rod can't handle it. But it works just fine with 3 wt and has a very pleasant light presentation while still having enough oompf to turn over a small hopper. I love this rod.

[John Sv]

This conversation gets further complicated by all of these overweighted lines. For ex a 5 wt SA GPX is almost 10 grains heavier than a "true" 5 weight. a 5 weight RIO Grand is something like 160 grains which is the middle of a 6. My 7 weight rod throws 250 grains easy peasy...

My 3/4 weight Steffen casts a 3 weight with a fast stroke and a 4 weight with a nice relaxed cast.

I seem to be the opposite as some of you- I like the heavier line in the wind and feel it lays down straight with less punch, as does my fast 5 wt overlined by half a weight ..no?

[Bob G]

In an attempt to keep both sides of the scale fairly equal, I add a vote to Dynaflow's point. While his points are presented in a fairly matter of fact method, there is great wisdom underlying his logic. My point would be to simply appreciate both sides of this line weight issue.

Best, Bob

[Idadon]

I've got to go with Bigfly on this point. You've got the rod so go try to find a line that works with your stroke. No rules say that you have to use a 5wt on a 5wt and you're not likely to be kicked off the river for deviating. Over the past few years I've learned that overlining has its place in fishing and I actually have an antique Fenwick that says 8wt but is pure silk with a 7wt. But that's my stroke, not yours or anyone else's. Advise is to take it as a challenge to conquer that "Broomstick". If eventually it defeats you and becomes another dust catcher list it in classifieds. No harm, no foul!

[dynaflow]

Some good points made in this thread,and certainly finding the "right" line these days can be a challenge when even the oft relied upon AFFTA chart means little in the scheme of things....e.g.I only fish fast action rods in the lighter weights (Clutch Archipelago,NRX,Hardy Sintrix,Winston Boron III Plus) and almost always in the wind because of where I live.All of those rods are great to cast all day,unlike the broomsticks of yesteryear,and while any of them are easily capable of handling uplining I choose not too....your mileage may differ as they say.

[eastfly]

I think if you cast this T&T you'd change your tune. It's an extremely fast rod, anything less than 35-40 feet of 6 wt line just doesn't load the rod, it's the classic broomstick. It's much closer to a 7wt rod if you want the rod to match the line, maybe 6.5.

.

Hi Lucky, I have some experience with these T&T rods and I was thinking. You mentioned this rod is a TU rod? I am not aware of or can I find a TU rod sponsored by T&T however , there is a T&T from the Federation (IFFF) and I know a little about that rod too. It would be exactly what you are describing and it is not the new Avantt but the NS5 (No Sancturay) which was a prototype to the NS II. It is a specialized rod for big rivers and big fish, it really doesn't come to life until after 45' . The distance dudes like this rod. and I found the rod did well with a plus line, even a #6. I am just curious that maybe you have a Federation rod and not a TU or even the TU built on a NS5/NSII blank ? BTW- This prototype as I was told by the guys at T&T was favored to become the NS but another was selected the ownership back than. It is a nice rod for the right application.

Cheers
Paul

[luckydude]

Hi Lucky, I have some experience with these T&T rods and I was thinking. You mentioned this rod is a TU rod? I am not aware of or can I find a TU rod sponsored by T&T however , there is a T&T from the Federation (IFFF) and I know a little about that rod too. It would be exactly what you are describing and it is not the new Avantt but the NS5 (No Sancturay) which was a prototype to the NS II. It is a specialized rod for big rivers and big fish, it really doesn't come to life until after 45' . The distance dudes like this rod. and I found the rod did well with a plus line, even a #6. I am just curious that maybe you have a Federation rod and not a TU or even the TU built on a NS5/NSII blank ? BTW- This prototype as I was told by the guys at T&T was favored to become the NS but another was selected the ownership back than. It is a nice rod for the right application.

Cheers
Paul

Hi Paul,

It's the T&T Avantt, says so on the rod. It also says Trout Unlimited so it's some run they did for TU. The background there is that TU was fund raising and if you gave them a pile of money they sent you a pile of stuff (I'm pretty unhappy with how that was done, for the record, not a fan of TU right now).

As to not coming to life, yeah. This rod is a broom stick until you have about 40 feet out. I'm not an expert caster by any stretch but when I go on guided trips they seem to think I'm OK or a little better than OK compared to the usual clients. For me, this rod works from about 40-60 feet and 60 might be a stretch. I mean line, I'm not including leader (is there a standard for that? When people say they can cast 50 feet does that mean 50 feet plus a 10 foot leader or does the 50 feet include the leader?). It's no fun closer in.

I've got a Sage Z-axis also in 5wt and while it doesn't have the power of the T&T, it is close and it is way more pleasant to use. Sage rods are pretty special to me, they like that little flick and you get a nice tight loop. But in fairness to the T&T rod, the Sage "collapses" sooner than the T&T.

By "collapses" I mean that when I am casting, put more and more line out there, there is a point where the cast just kind of falls apart. I'm sure it's partially my ability but it is also the rod. The collapse is always at the extreme end of how far I can cast.

But it's not all about distance, it's more than that. Can you make a nice soft dry fly presentation? Not with this T&T rod at any distance. Can you use really light tippets? Not with this rod.

To me, this 5wt feels like it is a 5wt in name only, it wants to be a 7wt. I hate this trend in rods. 5wt should be 5wt.