Flouro vs Mono for Steelhead

[JayDubP]

For swinging for Steelhead...is flourocarbon really any better than mono? There are conflicting articles as to if flourocarbon is really significantly less visible to fish, especially in moving water that is not crystal clear.

My problem with flourocarbon is that knot strength is not as good as mono-- not so much when tied, but after casting and fishing a short while... seems to me that fly casting puts a different stress on knots than does bait casting. If I have to use a stronger flourocarbon to compensate for knot failure is 10lb flourocarbon really clearer than an 8lb mono?

I do not have a lot of failure line to line, almost all of the failure using Flourocarbon seems to be line to hook if I use any traditional terminal knots like Clinch Knot, Improved Clinch Knot or Trielene Knot-- so I now use:
1) Lefty Kreg Non Slip Loop knot for line to hook for most trout flies (thanks to John Baiocchi).
2) Shaw Grigsby "Double Pitzen Knot" ("Best Flourocarbon Knot") for larger flies - strongest I have found, but bulky.

Per suggestions from flourocarbon manufacturers, I even use lip balm instead of saliva before I tighten the knots down (use sunscreen lip balm on my lips and rub the line between my lips before tightening the knot)

[Jeff F]

Jay,

For swinging, I use flouro exclusively. The main reason I do is because of the way it casts. For the Klamath, for instance, I use Rio 2X flouro. It is so much stiffer than mono, and to me, it just seems to cast better. It's got a "wire-like" quality to it. So when you're casting long distances and double-hauling, I like that extra stiffness the flouro gives me. And I think it tends to swing the fly more smoothly once it's in the water. I rarely get wind knots or stacked casts using flouro.

What I usually do is put on a new 2X flouro 9-foot leader. Cut it back about a foot or two. Tie on a tippet ring. Then tie on a couple feet of 2x flouro tippet. Some guys just use a straight strand of tippet connected to the fly line, sink tip, or butt section. But I prefer the tapered aspect of the leader coming off the butt section. Seems to cast more smoothly.

As for knots, I haven't noticed a difference between mono and flouro. I use a slip loop knot (can't remember which one it is) and it holds fine. Don't think I've lost any fish due to knot strength.

And one more thing......I don't think steelhead are really leader shy. So I try to get away the heaviest tippet I can. For fall fishing, rivers like the Klamath, and especially the Trinity, are really clear. But I think 2X flouro is fine.

~Jeff

[dude02]

I had similar problems one day with a cheap flouro breaking off at the fly using an improved clinch. No problems with the same knot on mono. Maybe it was a bad day or bad material, but I switched to a uni-knot and have never had a similar problem. I use it for all line to line and line to fly connections. Just spit, and sometimes with a bit of hops mixed in for good measure.

While I don't swing, i do use Rio flouro on the Trinity with no problems.

[JayDubP]

I had similar problems one day with a cheap flouro breaking off at the fly using an improved clinch. No problems with the same knot on mono. Maybe it was a bad day or bad material, but I switched to a uni-knot and have never had a similar problem. I use it for all line to line and line to fly connections. Just spit, and sometimes with a bit of hops mixed in for good measure.

While I don't swing, i do use Rio flouro on the Trinity with no problems.


@dude02: Went to the fly shop and they let me tie a knot with some new Rio Flouro 2X & we compared to the Rio Flouro 2X I have-- even though Flourocarbon should last a long time, there was a huge difference -- so I replaced the 3 diff sizes of Rip Flouro I have and problem with knots breaking seems to be solved. I am sure I have had those spools since Rio first started selling Flouro, so it could be changes in technology rather than age..

I agree that the uni knot is a great knot. This will be my first time using the Shaw Grigsby knot for every fly...

@Jeff F- your point about Flouro swinging straighter is a good one... and a big reason I will be using Flouro for my upcoming Klamath Steelhead trip.

Thanks,

Jim

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

For Swinging flies for Steelhead any fresh, good quality 0X FC or nylon mono material will work.

__________________________________________

The most popular tippet material for the past 50 years for Steelhead is German made Maxima 'Ultragreen' nylon monofilament.

6# for smaller Half-pounder Steelhead
8# for most Fall fishing
10# for bigger Fall fish on bigger Spey rods.

15# for BC Steelhead?


8# Maxima Ultragreen says it is .010" but it is really 0.011" or 0X tippet.

I think 8# Maxima Ultragreen breaks at over 12#.....

.

[Mark Kranhold]

Green Max is all you need for swingin for steel! I will use a short piece of flouro to the fly sometimes when I am swinging smaller soft hackles summer and early fall . Maxima is strong stuff and cheaper than flouro, and yes I agree that steelies aren't leader shy on a swung fly. If there going to chase it there going to eat it. Maxima is my go to winter leader. If you are looking for a nice stiff flouro, seagar is the stuff.

[donkeyhunter007]

dont like fluorocarbon. If your swinging..... another vote for maxima. every time I use somthing else I regret it.
I agree #8 Maxima is like #12 rio tippet material.

[James W]

Fluorocarbon is not a monolithic product.

There's a lot of really bad product being sold because it's very expensive and difficult to produce. The best fluoro does not have knot issues, nor any of the other anecdotal "issues" you hear about.
BUT, it's expensive! There's no getting around this. Seaguar Grand Max is really expensive, but it's the very best by far.
If saving 50c on the tippet you're throwing with your $800 fly rod really is important to you, just buy whatever name brand mono tippet is on the shelf at your local shop.

Oh, by the way, mono takes over 600 years to breakdown, so you're not throwing daisies on the riverbank when you drop a piece of that stuff either.

[Rick J]

Another vote for Maxima - green or clear. Use 8# and at times 6# for summer fall and 10 to 15# for winter depending on water conditions and where I am fishing and potential size of fish - I really don't see a benefit for FC and no downside for Maxima and definitely FC is more expensive. That said I have a good guide friend that really likes FC. So whatever you want as long as you have confidence in what you are using.

[Andy]

Maxima Ultragreen is all you need.

[Terry Thomas]

Seaguar AbrazX, great product and only runs @ $25.00 for 200 yards. Have been using it for the last 5 years for Steelhead, Stripers and Shad. Seems to hold a knot very well.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Guide Keith Kaneko turned us onto Seaguar AbrazX FC......

[ycflyfisher]

Add me to the list that sees no appreciable benefit to FC for typical steelhead applications.

Maxima is garbage and it's rep as the strongest tippet on earth is a matter of pure deception. Now that may sound an extremely bold statement or that I'm purposely pissing in everyone's Cheerios just to get a response so I'll explain.

I did a test several years ago where I built an apparatus that I could stack iron plates in 1 lb increments on. I devised a means where no knots were used during the test. I tested the breaking strength of several mono tippet materials in several diameters (0X down to 4X if memory serves) including Maxima. Each diameter of each tippet was broken several times to create a suitable sample size of data to miminize variation.

If you test Maxima head to head with any other tippet material with 'advertised breaking strength' as the criteria, Maxima will ALWAYS win. All Maxima by my account broke under what I'd call a significantly higher load than the 'advertised breaking strength'. Maxima (all of it from 6 to 15lb) from my experience is purposely underrated by the manufacturer. It however didn't end there. I never noticed how much thicker 6 lb Maxima was than 4x Rio Powerflex or 4X Dai-riki Velvet (both rated around 6.5lbs and broke right around that weight) until I had several spools of various 4x tippet material and 6lb Maxima in hand at the same time.

How much thicker is it? I just mic'd some 6lb Maxima at 3 locations about 5 feet apart and it mics at an average of .254mm. That's not only significantly thicker than 3x Rio Powerflex but over 10% thicker than 2x Rio Powerflex (.229mm by the same micrometer).

The manufacturer of Maxima does not follow the industry convention of diameter designation:0X, 1X, 2X, etc. When compared to other mono tippets of like diameter, Maxima was a epic failure and was not only the weakest mono of those I tested but it was significantly weaker (upwards of 20% vs the strongest monos.)

[Rick J]

Does not mean it is garbage - just that it does not test the same and may be inaccurately rated - for steelhead do I really care if 8# mics thicker than it says it is and is stronger than it says it is? Not really!! Does it work for the application I am using it for - most certainly.

Do I use it for other applications? Rarely when trout fishing - I will go to better mono or FC for my trout applications but I have always known that maxima was not really what it claimed to be - pretty obvious they underrate it but don't much care - works great!

[RonOtto]

Agreed on the Seaguar AbrazX. Excellent product, and value.
I use it for steelhead and stripers and it's proven to be consistent and dependable.


Ron Otto

[Idadon]

Got to agree with Rick J on this one. I use Maxima because it works. The only reason I go to more expensive stuff is if I'm fishing over leader shy fish or maybe I'm after a record fish (that never happens) that requires a sample of your tippet to validate the record. There was a time when that kind of stuff was all we had and we tied our own tapered leaders with it. Caught lots of fish on Maxima and never worried to much about it.

[Carl Blackledge]

For Swinging flies for Steelhead any fresh, good quality 0X FC or nylon mono material will work.

__________________________________________

The most popular tippet material for the past 50 years for Steelhead is German made Maxima 'Ultragreen' nylon monofilament.

6# for smaller Half-pounder Steelhead
8# for most Fall fishing
10# for bigger Fall fish on bigger Spey rods.

15# for BC Steelhead?


8# Maxima Ultragreen says it is .010" but it is really 0.011" or 0X tippet.

I think 8# Maxima Ultragreen breaks at over 12#.....

.

Bill,

I totally agree with you. Probably more Steelhead and Salmon have been landed on Maxima then all others combined, It's tough and very abrasive resistant plus it's dirt cheap. Now after that being said I stopped using Maxima about 15 years ago and switched to Seaguar "blue label" leader material and my success did increase in low clear situations especially on Salmon , of course when the water is off color then you could use an anchor rope and it won't make much difference.

When I chased Tarpon we always used Clear mono for leaders because it didn't sink near as fast as fluorocarbon, however we did use FC for the bite.

Each material definitely has it's place in the fishing World. To each his own

My 2 cents

Carl Blackledge

[Walter]

Agreed on the Seaguar AbrazX. Excellent product, and value.
I use it for steelhead and stripers and it's proven to be consistent and dependable.


Ron Otto

In my experienxe Abrasx performed poorly compared to Seaguar InvisX. Its much better.

[TaylerW]

I've almost exclusively Used abrazx for almost 8 years. I really use anything else. I use the 12lb for almost everything from swinging to bobber fishing, to gear.

[JD]

Try Maxima Fluorocarbon for the best of all worlds. Cheaper than the Seagar, and performs just as well IMHO.

[briansII]

I use both. Flouro if water is very clear, and mono if not. As for Maxima being under rated for it's diameter, I think most guys that use it, know that. Maxima is not the only company to do that with their monofilament line. Just to name a couple more, Berkley and P-Line do too. I've tried green P-Line CXX, and like it a bit better than Maxima. For flouro, I like most of the Seaguar lines(I use a lot of Grand Max and Abrazx for swinging), and Sunline Sniper. Flouro, I only use a Kreh Loop, double pitzen, or this version of a double uni.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfb92Df6gpE

briansII

[Steelin' Time]

I have used Seaguar Invizx for several years now for all my pre-tied Steelhead leaders.

Last year I read an article on some FF site that had tested all the latest versions of fluorocarbon by leading manufacturers. A leader material called Trouthunter (Made in Japan) won the testing.

I purchased some Trouthunter Fluorocarbon as a result of reading the article. I used it at the end of last winter steelhead season and just ordered five 50 meter spools for this upcoming season. The 2X is stronger than the 10# Seaguar even though the diameter of the TH is slightly less than that of the SG.