Is it legal to have a weight below your lowest fly?

[John Sv]

Hi,
Buried in a different thread is a discussion about this-I thought it warranted its own thread. I have been under the impression (been told many times by I forget who and when) that in CA the regulation is that you have to have a point fly below the lowest shot (or other weight). Running a fly with leader and a weight below, constitutes drop shotting, which as a poster brought up is illegal in CA. The regulation, as the poster said, is to protect against salmon snagging. I always run a point fly at the bottom of my nymph rigs, but I've read in Sierra Fisherman a recommendation to rig leader and shot below your fly, and also here. Plus don't the gear guys back-bounce for salmon and spin-n-glow for steelies?

I think the gist about not having a point fly is that if the shot snags, you just pull and the shot slips off, saving the rest of your rig. Whether that is a good idea or a bad one is for people smarter than me to debate; I'm curious about clarity regarding the actual regulation. Although I do wonder if the bottoms of the Yuba, T and the LT are paved with lost shot...

So... anybody know?
Thanks!

[PV_Premier]

The regulations stipulate that "drop shotting" (weight below lowest fly) is illegal in moving water, but legal in still water. I have verified this with 2 or 3 independent DFG wardens who I saw in the field.

Anyone can think of several creative ways to circumvent this somewhat pointless regulation and remain within the "rules".

[John Sv]

Anyone can think of several creative ways to circumvent this somewhat pointless regulation and remain within the "rules".[/QUOTE]

Guess I'll bite ... How do you rig to circumvent the regulation and remain within the rules?

[Mark Kranhold]

Heavy tungsten beadhead fly with the bend of the hook snipped off:eek: Just tell the warden your in the game for the grab not the catch:p

[John Sv]

Lolz. So I've done this and was getting a lot of action but no hookups. sometimes I'd get a few headshakes from the fish. Then a lightbulb went on... wait a minute... they were hitting the fly with no hook! Tied one on with the hook on and game on!


Heavy tungsten beadhead fly with the bend of the hook snipped off:eek: Just tell the warden your in the game for the grab not the catch:p

[Sheepdog8404]

Heavy tungsten beadhead fly with the bend of the hook snipped off:eek: Just tell the warden your in the game for the grab not the catch:p

HA!!!!!!!!

[cdevine]

I honestly believe somehow, someway most of us have violated some rule without ever knowing. Doesn't make it right but at some point in life you just have to go out and fish. For peat sake its not like you are snagging fish. I know when I fished in Canada that you could only have 1 fly. (no tandem rigs). That was black and white. I don't use this method but I want to say I've seen it fished by Kelly Gallop.

[StevenB]

It is quite possible I am wrong in my reply to Taylor in the other thread. I know what DFW told me but they may have misunderstood the question or I may have misunderstood the answer.

"drop shotting" (weight below lowest fly) is illegal in moving water"

Can you specify which part of the regs you are referring to ? I can find nothing about it but the section I mentioned in the other post.

[John Sv]

Quote "I honestly believe somehow, someway most of us have violated some rule without ever knowing. Doesn't make it right but at some point in life you just have to go out and fish."

Which is why I put a little Pro Cure on my streamers!!! A little dab'll do ya right!!
Just Kidding!!!! :)

[cdevine]

ha ha... Yeah, I like to "Chum" in the water before I hit that hole hard. The solution is to just dry fly fish right?

[STEELIES/26c3]

The ONLY RELEVANT regulations in CDFW regulations booklet are:

CHAPTER 2, ARTICLE 1

2. It is unlawful to use any hook which is directly or indirectly attached closer than 18 inches to any
weight exceeding 1/2 ounce.

3. It is unlawful to use any multiple hook or more than one single hook on non-buoyant lures exceeding
one ounce.

4. It is unlawful to use any weight directly attached below a hook.

I believe one may still use a weight below a fly so long as said fly is suspended from main fly line via a dropper loop in such a way as to prevent it from being DIRECTLY above the weight~ I don't see that as being a very useful application though.

Rereading this... I think the operative phrase is DIRECTLY ATTACHED BELOW HOOK meaning on the line and snugged up against weight as in no distance between hook and weight. Those who use weighted hooks or hooks DIRECTLY above a weight are usually snagging salmon in the river which is no doubt the impetus for the regulation.

[STEELIES/26c3]

You could circumvent by tying a small section of leader to a third dropper nymph and just (as some alluded to...) remove the hook from that lowest (point) fly. It still constitutes as a fly and so is legit below the weight but it has no hook so it won't hang up on the bottom.... ?

[Charlie S]

All this work and mind bending to circumvent the law. Why?

[bigfly]

I'll echo Devine.....

Just learn how to fish (dry or otherwise), and you won't need to cheat, or lower the bar just to catch a fish.
If that is the tendency, try bait fishing, maybe on stocked ponds...
Fly fishing is more for the connoisseur, than consumer, catching wise........and otherwise too.
The possibility of failure of is what makes it a challenge, and that makes it fun for me.
Dropping shot would get more fish, but would not satisfy. You can't fill a black hole.......It also leads to dissatisfaction if you get skunked or only get one....
Since we live in a consumer society, and more is better.....kinda surprised the law was written as is.
Maybe there is hope.....
I haven't met a warden that knew if it was OK here anyway. But you might get lucky.......
Get calls from folks who want to book a trip. and they ask if I drop shot.
I say no, never, and they book. Because it's really not fly fishing, it's fly catching.....


Jim

[cdevine]

I'll echo Devine.....

Just learn how to fish (dry or otherwise), and you won't need to cheat, or lower the bar just to catch a fish.
If that is the tendency, try bait fishing, maybe on stocked ponds...
Fly fishing is more for the connoisseur, than consumer, catching wise........and otherwise too.
The possibility of failure of is what makes it a challenge, and that makes it fun for me.
Dropping shot would get more fish, but would not satisfy. You can't fill a black hole.......
Since we live in a consumer society, and more is better.....kinda surprised the law was written as is.
Maybe there is hope.....
I haven't met a warden that knew if it was OK here anyway. But you might get lucky.......
Get calls from folks who want to book a trip. and they ask if I drop shot.
I say no, never, and they book. Because it's not fly fishing, it's fly catching.....


Jim


Good post Jim. I'm over the #'s game.

Hey, how is the Truckee watershed doing these days? Was hoping you would fill the board in maybe on another thread. I thought I spotted your rig the other day in the upper section when I was driving over to Tahoe City but I may have been mistaken. Kids had a baseball game so no fishing for me. Looks like flows staying in healthy mid 400's below boca, but I would think water temps will be getting into low-mid 60's this week with the hotter weather. Sorry didn't mean to ramble. Just like your posts.

devine.

[bigfly]

Nothing wrong with numbers, unless that's all you want......
If I want numbers, I Czech nymph. (And it's fairly close to fishing drop-shot too.)
Easily get to double digits once you figure it out.
The difference is a smaller class of fish in general. Although, you can be surprised from time to time.....

Instead of numbers, and working out my arms, my focus is on my legs, and a fish that runs me 100 yards.
It's my favorite way to exercise........

I will update the T post when the last one gets to the bottom of the page.
Not much change in bugs or flows.......
Just steadily rising temps.
Fish now.

Jim

[Bob Loblaw]

I don't think anyone is looking for shortcuts or ways to cheat to bump up catch numbers...just ways to not lose so many flies on certain rivers. there are days on the Pit where you can lose your rig on every other cast! If all people wanted to do was have 20 fish days we'd dunk bait.

As others have said, there are ways around any rule. You can tie up a bottom fly with lead wrap and a couple of tungsten beads and pinch the hook off. It serves the same function as a drop weight at the end of the day.

I have fished a bounce rig on the Provo River in Utah with a guide and my partner and I had 30 plus fish each in hand by lunchtime and didn't get snagged once. IN the afternoon I told him I wanted to fish dries and he told me it wouldn't be as productive...and it wasn't....but the only fish I remember from that day was the 20 inch rainbow that took my size 20 PMD. The only fish I took after lunch.

[John Sv]

So who has a DFW buddy that can give us definitive clarity on this?

I read the reg that if you have a fly tied to some leader dangling down with a weight on it, there needs to be another hook below it. Also that the regs talk about hooks, not flies, so a fly with the hook cut off is not legal?

BTW I don't have an agenda here, just looking for clarification...
Thanks

[bigfly]

Bob, I don't want to say anyone on here would cheat just to catch more....but I do know it goes on a lot.
Glad to hear you aren't into quantity over quality......
Why is it most folks fish that way in UT.......?
I understand early on, wanting lots of easy fish......
But skipping the learning phase, doesn't build fly fishing skill, or character.
It just gets you a fish.
Wasn't a shot at you either John, give a shout if I can help. Because I do have an agenda.....I want fishers to get better.

If you want to know....Call F&W and ask them.......and get the name of the officer, in case you get hassled in the field.

Jim

[John Sv]

I have a call into DFW.. got some contacts there through work.

Did not take it as a shot. Or as a drop shot :)
Mainly curious because I got into this a year or two ago with Bill Forward at Sierra Fisherman, because he published an article reciting a similar rig. Didn't resolve it then, forgot about it until it came up a few days ago in another thread.

Not much of a nympher here personally. To each their own but when I need to get down with lots of weight I start to daydream about other types of fishing. For one reason or another it doesn't hold my attention that well. No snobbery here- heck I fish gear a lot too!



Bob, I don't want to say anyone on here would cheat just to catch more....but I do know it goes on a lot.
Glad to hear you aren't into quantity over quality......
Why is it most folks fish that way in UT.......?
I understand early on, wanting lots of easy fish......
But skipping the learning phase, doesn't build fly fishing skill, or character.
It just gets you a fish.
Wasn't a shot at you either John, give a shout if I can help. Because I do have an agenda.....I want fishers to get better.

If you want to know....Call F&W and ask them.......and get the name of the officer, in case you get hassled in the field.

Jim

[gitt]

I have fished a bounce rig on the Provo River in Utah with a guide and my partner and I had 30 plus fish each in hand by lunchtime and didn't get snagged once. IN the afternoon I told him I wanted to fish dries and he told me it wouldn't be as productive...and it wasn't....but the only fish I remember from that day was the 20 inch rainbow that took my size 20 PMD. The only fish I took after lunch.

Having recently returned from the Green, noticed guys fishing this technique. It is a no brainer for guys wanting in on the numbers game. You don't have to pay that much attention as you can focus on the scenery until you get a grab. I refer to the technique as deep dredge nymphing with a smirk. If that is what folks want, its okay by me. The same token, I wear a t-shirt that stated bobbers are training wheels. The guides didn't like seeing that in front of their clients as they strung up for the day. If it is within the legal boundaries, so be it. One of my fly fishing mentors refused to fish split shot. He did however tie a large nymph where the body and thorax was two heavy layers of lead under fur and feathers ala Joe Brooks style that he fished as his point fly. I asked him, "Whats the difference?" Skirting laws? Perhaps, this fellow was a respectable and upstanding member of a higher order and who was I to question authority?

Some of my best days have been floating down the river and throwing dries to the edges and transitional areas while others looked on in amazement while they had to concentrate on a plastic ball for any response, even on the drop shot technique. How much effort is required? It is even funnier to talk to others on the river at the end of the day that observed us fishing dries only in amazement that we even caught fish. My son did not care for flyfishing and preferred to hike the areas I fish. I took him out to the Green last year and let him fish a dry/dropper set up until he could not stand the dropper. Once he got rid of the dropper, it was pretty much game on for him. I also took some friends last year as well to experience the dry fly fishing and from their observation in the morning was that they saw others fishing indicators. As a measure of success, they decided they should be as well and asked me for consensus. My response was that you don't travel to an area known for its dry fly action and throw on a big indicator. Give it some time. After lunch, they changed their tune. They returned this year anticipating fishing dries and not the deep dredge technique. My son also looks forward to throwing dries as well instead of hiking the area while I fish. He told me that the finally gets it. How things change.

It is all boils down to a preference style, so whatever floats your boat. Legality of technique is jurisdiction based only. Was my mentor any better than the drop shot technique? I'll withhold judgement. Instead of adding split shot below your fly, learn to mend. In either case, you need to mend. If you insist on lead below your fly, buy a boat with down riggers.

[Bob Loblaw]

There's no doubt that fishing dries is a much more satisfying experience than fishing sub surface...whether you are looking at a bobber or a strip of fluorescent amnesia...its not the same as looking at a bug drift in the current and seeing a fish come up from the deep and grab it.

There are just some days, perhaps most days, where throwning dries at fish feeding on the bottom is an exercise in futility. I have no problem nymphing under an indicator or Czech style without one if that's what the conditions call for....but if there's a chance of a fish taking a dry, I'll tie one on in a heartbeat.

[cdevine]

Nothing wrong with numbers, unless that's all you want......
If I want numbers, I Czech nymph. (And it's fairly close to fishing drop-shot too.)
Easily get to double digits once you figure it out.
The difference is a smaller class of fish in general. Although, you can be surprised from time to time.....

Instead of numbers, and working out my arms, my focus is on my legs, and a fish that runs me 100 yards.
It's my favorite way to exercise........

I will update the T post when the last one gets to the bottom of the page.
Not much change in bugs or flows.......
Just steadily rising temps.
Fish now.

Jim


Thanks jim. Yeah, going to get really warm in next few days. I will be off the water midday. Def a morning and night thing now. Have a good one!

[bigfly]

Bob. I am a recovering Dry Fly addict.
Am thinking of starting a local chapter of Truckee Fly Fishers Anonymous (TFFA)
Ask anyone....I still carry a dry rod rigged, in case I relapse......it can be sudden...
But the T has taught me to not ask fish to do something they don't want to do. (Like rise)
If I see a nose, I fish dries, but otherwise, I don't fight it, and fish a bobber, or another style subsurface.
On the T, close to 90% of the time we nymph if we want to see a fish. That means you are a 10%er+ if you only fish dry.
Nothing will help overcome the addiction, like catching a fish once every ten outings.....Heck, you could almost completely quit at that rate....

It's taken me many years longer to master the nymph, than to learn to fish a dry......because you can't see your nymph.
It's pretty easy to fish if you can see your fly.........

But honestly, my favorite way to play here....is swinging a streamer, especially if I can see it. Sight fishing is fun.......
And, like I said, I love to run........

Jim

[Misplaced Spey Guy]

I thought Washington's regulations were tough to read.

As my moniker suggests, I moved from the rain forest of the mighty Olympic Peninsula last February. Call me crazy, but my beloved rivers are either closed or overran by a ton of city folks making it tough to navigate the aluminum hatch, or having to hike in a few miles to find piece of mind.

If I am reading this "rule" correctly, I cannot use a beadhead or jig style fly as my point fly(?)