Spearfishing the American River

[Jeff Putnam]

So sad... I've seen several huge stripers (up to 35 lbs) fall victim to the spearfishermen in the last 3 weeks. 3 huge females killed last week alone by spearfishermen in less than two hours. Its hard to believe that people still think there is an endless supply of fish left especially after reading about the historic numbers that once thrived here... although I guess its easier to not educate ourselves and continue our destructive self-serving pathetic behavior. I've been fishing for over 35 years and after continuing to notice the numbers fish decline early in my fishing career and it didn't take long to figure out that I had to release the fish I caught if I wanted to keep fishing. This is not a plea to spearfishermen but instead a call to all fishermen... Please do not go fishing for your dinner (there is no need). There are simply too many hurdles for fish to get past including water issues and the lack of it, dams interfering with migration and spawning, poor ocean environment/lack of food & warm water, over harvesting/poaching and the continual drop in fish populations to justify the need to keep killing what little fish populations that are left. I hope we can change this before we all start saying... "I remember how good the fishing was back in the day... now there's nothing left".
Uh oh... maybe its already too late. -JP

[SeanO]

Sounds like a sad state of affairs on the American river these days.

How can we let CDFW know that the practice is unsustainable?

[Darian]

From past exchanges with CDFW staff, I believe they have all of the study info they need to conclude that Spearfishing for Stripers won't impact total population numbers. The main result will be that large Stripers will become scarce as they're long lived and take a long time to replace. But, as has been pointed out by others on this forum, there're plenty of small Stripers around, especially in the Delta.

in order to make spearfishing in rivers legal, the spearfishing organization approached CDFW/F&G Commission with their proposal. It was accepted without much fanfare or opposition. Maybe we'd have a better chance to change this by lobbying (as the spears did) CDFW to make spearfishing in the rivers illegal(??).

[Mark Kranhold]

Good post Jeff , and agree a 100%. Thanks for the post!

[mogaru]

Behind all, you'll find the "water guys"........getting rid of the fish and specially the ones that reproduce (all big females and males) will make everything a lot easier. When there will be little or nothing to protect, allocating water will be an easy job. "Using" the spearguys to "clean up" the river from fish is pure "planning". Years back they even proposed to eliminate stripers size and limit. There is no civilize country in the world that allows spearfishing in the rivers......specially the ones with salmon. The CDFW is going along because the "orders" come from up above. As a matter in fact, they tried to do something about it enforcing the "no gun rule in the parks" and were quickly "discouraged" by the "higher authorities". Unfortunately, we live in a world of lobbies and private interests.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Some body wants to eliminate all the Stripers......?

[mogaru]

Yes Bill, somebody wants to eliminate the stripers and they,ve been trying to do it for a long time always with the same argument ......they are not native fish..........they eat the salmon smolts................etc,etc. Fish is the obstacle to allocate more water.

[Mark V]

Thanks for posting Jeff.
Where exactly on the river and time of day did you see the giant hens killed? Do you think they brought the spear gear from the bank? Did you talk to them? Get a picture? Were you in a boat or on the bank?

Mogaru- agreed the Agribiz folks want to wipe out all the sportfish to make it easier to take the rest of the water, and they've been at it for years vilifying stripers to divert blame away from themselves for the damage they've done to Salmon pops.

Sac County has a law (link (http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?30647-Final-analysis-and-county-parks-policy-determination-on-spearfishing)) to protect the fish wildlife that forbids possession of spear gear anywhere in the parkway (river banks) . Last summer a senior Ranger told me they WILL enforce that law, so I urge you to keep the Sac Sheriff non-emergency phone # programmed in your phone. 916-874-5115

I believe the Ranger also told me it's possible to make a citizen's arrest for that--but I bet this comment will stir this topic up again, so I better call that Sgt Ranger again this week, and edit this post with a P.S.

Let's get these guys out of the shadows. Who are they? Let's introduce them to the Rangers. If I see 'em again I will def also get pics and try to find where they parked. We can find out in court if they need education, or just need to quit the illegal behavior. Let's get them fines and their gear confiscated.

[Jeff Putnam]

The occurrence was in the after noon just below Watt Ave and in between Howe although I've seen the same spearfishermen in other areas of the river. I've said comments to several of them in the past about not killing the larger female stripers because they're populations are so low. Most of them respond by saying that they are helping the salmon populations or "its not your river" and I've even been told that I'm number one (with their middle finger).
Unfortunately the Dept of Fish and Game and County Parks and Rec says its legal if they enter the American River by boat from the Sacramento River since the American River Parkway is protected federally... no weapons/firearms. The spear fishermen also get around this by disassembling their spear guns before they enter the parkway and then reassemble them once they are in their boats. My question then becomes... How is that even legal? and... Why does anyone think its a good idea to kill these spawning females?

I think Mogaru is right on... There's a much bigger agenda going on not to mention people should open their eyes to the bigger picture and look at fisheries around the world that once were however, because of our short sided thinking they no longer exist. -JP

[Mark Kranhold]

It's very sad, this one here was taken from the Harrington/ Gristmill area! I have told this freind of mine the 8lbers are the healthy eating ones not the 30+ lbers !Salmon/steelhead and stripers have all commingled togather in the American River since the late 1800's. Plus we have a hatchery that provides for future salmon / steelhead , so why kill the big hens, there not saving the salmonoids! Me as a fly angler and many conventional gear guys I know , know how hard it is to get hooked into one of these toads on the A! The more big pigs that get speared is going to even make it harder to hook one! Eat some Mercury overload!12043

[STEELIES/26c3]

Behind all, you'll find the "water guys"........getting rid of the fish and specially the ones that reproduce (all big females and males) will make everything a lot easier. When there will be little or nothing to protect, allocating water will be an easy job. "Using" the spearguys to "clean up" the river from fish is pure "planning". Years back they even proposed to eliminate stripers size and limit. There is no civilize country in the world that allows spearfishing in the rivers......specially the ones with salmon. The CDFW is going along because the "orders" come from up above. As a matter in fact, they tried to do something about it enforcing the "no gun rule in the parks" and were quickly "discouraged" by the "higher authorities". Unfortunately, we live in a world of lobbies and private interests.

Glad to see some other folks on here who understand this... and it goes far wider and deeper than this.

Unfortunately, greedy, self-serving, egotistical people will use whatever argument they can to rationalize their behaviors. Ironically,they are parroting the lines of reasoning used by Westlands Water District, MWD, agribusiness and politicians who are trying to convince the public that the delta tunnels are a good idea... and in the end, if they are successful in so doing... we ALL (fly guys, gear guys, spearos, CNR guys and harvesters alike) will suffer because the delta watershed and ALL of its fisheries will be decimated.

There will not only be no more stripers but neither will there be any of the other anadromids (salmon, steelhead, sturgeon, shad) nor other pelagic fish species.

This month, a very important even is taking place. I hope many from this board will get involved.

SEE BELOW:
THANKS
MARK

http://us3.campaign-archive2.com/?u=06887fa70084fef8e939fef63&id=e39d396fd4&e=253ba920dc

[mogaru]

Jeff, the only way to stop this outrageous madness is by exposing this situation publicly in the local TV and newspapers, and also having the support of environmental associations like Sierra Club, Trout Unlimited, or any other of this kind who may have the possibility to place a lawsuit to save the stripers in the American river. Allowing spear fishing in a river is so outrageous that if we make it public it will expose the authorities responsible for it and may force them to reverse such a policy. I'm sure is some of us work together under "Kienes Save the American river Stripers" could make a difference.

[Tony Buzolich]

Don't forget the Feather, and the Yuba, and the Sac. Rivers too. They all have populations of spawning stripers as well. And both the Sac and Feather have already had issues of blatant spearfishing here as well with little or no action taking place to stop this genocide.
Tony

[winxp_man]

This is the reasons I don't give two turtle craps about spear guys/gals!!!!! They can eat some of this turtle crap if it where up to me!!!! They really need help! I mean how the heck is it they even manage to live life???????? I'm done because I don't want to get into it! But they really do need some kind of phsyc sessions! And even then I don't know if it will help!

One last statement. Spear aholes act like they care about conservation! Man this world is screwed up!

[Darian]

Rather than endlessly complaining about this to no avail, why not at least try to work with a club/group of clubs/people of like mind who're interested in promoting conservation of Stripers; such as, the California Striped Bass Association. This entity has been around since 1974 and has an established membership. Numbers will count. Here's a quote from the History section of their website:

"....The CSBA is a non-profit organization to preserve, conserve and enhance striped bass while promoting recreational sport fishing, environmental awareness and good fellowship. CSBA is one of the largest and most active fishing clubs in California’s Central Valley."

Here's a link to their website:
http://striper-csba.com/

Seems like a good place to start to gain support to build a proposal to the Fish & Game Commission to change the section of the code making spearfishing in rivers legal.

I'll bet there're other clubs/organizations out there (locally CFFU and GBFF) that might be interested in this effort. Remember, the spearfishing organization made their approach without fanfare or opposition. It won't be the same this time, expect opposition and prepare. Time to test the waters????

[Rossflyguy]

Relying on hatcheries for native salmon and steelhead isn't the right way to think about their futures. The hatchery fish pass on weaker genetics than wild fish reproducing. That's a known fact. I'd take the health of salmon/steelhead over striper. Striper co mingling with salmon for only 140 yrs isn't a lot of time. Salmon and steelhead numbers have reduced while striper are consistent in numbers.

[Rossflyguy]

Thanks for posting Jeff.
Where exactly on the river and time of day did you see the giant hens killed? Do you think they brought the spear gear from the bank? Did you talk to them? Get a picture? Were you in a boat or on the bank?

Mogaru- agreed the Agribiz folks want to wipe out all the sportfish to make it easier to take the rest of the water, and they've been at it for years vilifying stripers to divert blame away from themselves for the damage they've done to Salmon pops.

Sac County has a law (link (http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?30647-Final-analysis-and-county-parks-policy-determination-on-spearfishing)) to protect the fish wildlife that forbids possession of spear gear anywhere in the parkway (river banks) . Last summer a senior Ranger told me they WILL enforce that law, so I urge you to keep the Sac Sheriff non-emergency phone # programmed in your phone. 916-874-5115

I believe the Ranger also told me it's possible to make a citizen's arrest for that--but I bet this comment will stir this topic up again, so I better call that Sgt Ranger again this week, and edit this post with a P.S.

Let's get these guys out of the shadows. Who are they? Let's introduce them to the Rangers. If I see 'em again I will def also get pics and try to find where they parked. We can find out in court if they need education, or just need to quit the illegal behavior. Let's get them fines and their gear confiscated.


It's actual legal if it's taken apart on shore and put together while you're in the water. There's a loop hole.

[mogaru]

Relying on hatcheries for native salmon and steelhead isn't the right way to think about their futures. The hatchery fish pass on weaker genetics than wild fish reproducing. That's a known fact. I'd take the health of salmon/steelhead over striper. Striper co mingling with salmon for only 140 yrs isn't a lot of time. Salmon and steelhead numbers have reduced while striper are consistent in numbers.

Whattttt, stripers are consistent in numbers........whatttttt......jajajajaja. Talk to the old timers who used to catch several "20 and #30 on a regular outing in the rivers and sfo bay. People make comments with such a gratuity. Stripers as well as steelhead and salmon lived together in harmony.The typical line/lie from the water boys, 'stripers are responsible for the decline of salmon and steelhead".

[mogaru]

I'm going to repeat it again, so there is doubt about it "There is no "civilized country in the world that allows spear fishing in rivers" and the purpose and only goal of this policy is wiping out the stripers out of our rivers. The person o persons who allow such a criminal act against nature should have their pictures framed and subtitled "responsible for wiping the striper population from the northern california rivers".

[STEELIES/26c3]

Relying on hatcheries for native salmon and steelhead isn't the right way to think about their futures. The hatchery fish pass on weaker genetics than wild fish reproducing. That's a known fact. I'd take the health of salmon/steelhead over striper. Striper co mingling with salmon for only 140 yrs isn't a lot of time. Salmon and steelhead numbers have reduced while striper are consistent in numbers.

On the American River, it is INDEED the right way to think about them because without the hatchery, there would be no significant runs of either.

Habitat loss/Nimbus Dam prevent even the POSSIBILITY of NATIVE salmon and steelhead on the AR PERIOD!

[Rossflyguy]

Well the salmon with low spawning habitat on the AR I agree. The steelhead they release aren't really even native to this river. There are places those salmon do spawn but when you're standing shoulder to shoulder on their beds it'll be a little tougher to have a native population. Dams play a huge part but Striper don't help either. They're the most aggressive predator in any system now.

[Rossflyguy]

Whattttt, stripers are consistent in numbers........whatttttt......jajajajaja. Talk to the old timers who used to catch several "20 and #30 on a regular outing in the rivers and sfo bay. People make comments with such a gratuity. Stripers as well as steelhead and salmon lived together in harmony.The typical line/lie from the water boys, 'stripers are responsible for the decline of salmon and steelhead".

There's a huge population of Striper in California. There's no hatchery for Striper because they are thriving. Striper don't live in harmony with steelhead and salmon when they devour thousands of smolt. They do more damage than any native fish could. As far as large fish go how many people fish for striper and keep their limit everyday? Human population is much higher than it was 50 yrs ago. Imagine all the fisherman taking fish that don't have the potential to grow.

[Mark V]

Rossfly,
You're wrong. There is no loophole making it ok to possess spear fishing gear on the banks of the American river parkway if it's disassembled. Period.

Last summer when a Sgt Kemp of the Sac Co. Rangers called me back to discuss the Co. ordinance, he said that disassembly of spearfishing gear does not make it legal to possess on the AR Parkway. Said he will cite them just as he would if the person possessed a disassembled 9mm.

Last week I got a call from Sgt Derby with Sac Co rangers, who said that has not changed. He said the same thing about if the weapon is disassembled. They WILL enforce the ordinance, and they will confiscate the spear gear, and he couldn't say how much the fine would be cuz it's determined by the court, but misdem max is 1 yr in jail.

If you break that law and I report you, the Rangers will confiscate your gear and cite you. The court will decide your fine and/or jail time of up to 1yr max for misdemeanor.

It probably won't help your case if you falsely state in court that the law has a built in loophole. : )

You're wrong about a lot of things, and especially about the county ordinance:

9.36.060 Firearms, Air Guns, and Other Weapons.
No person other than peace officers in the discharge of their duties shall use, maintain, possess, fire, or discharge any firearm, air gun, spring gun, bow and arrow, slingshot, or any other weapon potentially dangerous to wildlife or human safety, except in areas, at times, and under conditions designated by the director for such use. A violation of the provisions of this section is a misdemeanor. (SCC 576 § 15, 1983.)

[mogaru]

There's a huge population of Striper in California. There's no hatchery for Striper because they are thriving. Striper don't live in harmony with steelhead and salmon when they devour thousands of smolt. They do more damage than any native fish could. As far as large fish go how many people fish for striper and keep their limit everyday? Human population is much higher than it was 50 yrs ago. Imagine all the fisherman taking fish that don't have the potential to grow.
While stripers are not in danger like salmon or steelhead, their population has declined substantially. Tony or any other fishing guide who fish for stripers regularly could confirm this. Spearfishing in a river is outrageous and should not be allowed ..........of course the water guys thing otherwise. Their objective is killing the big fish to little by little eliminate the stripers.

[STEELIES/26c3]

Citing the best kind of data available (empirical data gathered over nearly 30 years and during 20,000+ hours fishing all over our local river) I could easily blow the 'striped bass equals salmon/steelhead populations' greatest predatory threat... theory out of the water. At least on the AR, the striped bass is far from the salmonids' greatest threat and that's biologically/ecologically speaking (not even considering water diversion as part of the equation/Venn Diagram)...

[STEELIES/26c3]

Rossflyguy

Well the salmon with low spawning habitat on the AR I agree. The steelhead they release aren't really even native to this river. There are places those salmon do spawn but when you're standing shoulder to shoulder on their beds it'll be a little tougher to have a native population. Dams play a huge part but Striper don't help either. They're the most aggressive predator in any system now.

Cormorant, green heron, great blue heron, white egret, cattle egret, great egret, bittern, several tern species, osprey, Heerman's gull, ring billed gull, kingfisher, merganser, bufflehead, goldeneye, Barrow's goldeneye, squawfish, rainbow trout, steelhead, smallmouth and largemouth bass, river otter, California sea lion, pacific lamprey are just a FEW (off the top of my head) of the many predators many of which eat as many or more salmonids during the various stages of their life cycle than stripers do....

[SeanO]

Darian, I like your style.

Not familiar with what went down in the past concerning this issue, but I think we can get some anglers to step up if there is a clear path forward to change the laws. I'm in at least.

Take care,


Rather than endlessly complaining about this to no avail, why not at least try to work with a club/group of clubs/people of like mind who're interested in promoting conservation of Stripers; such as, the California Striped Bass Association. This entity has been around since 1974 and has an established membership. Numbers will count. Here's a quote from the History section of their website:

"....The CSBA is a non-profit organization to preserve, conserve and enhance striped bass while promoting recreational sport fishing, environmental awareness and good fellowship. CSBA is one of the largest and most active fishing clubs in California’s Central Valley."

Here's a link to their website:
http://striper-csba.com/

Seems like a good place to start to gain support to build a proposal to the Fish & Game Commission to change the section of the code making spearfishing in rivers legal.

I'll bet there're other clubs/organizations out there (locally CFFU and GBFF) that might be interested in this effort. Remember, the spearfishing organization made their approach without fanfare or opposition. It won't be the same this time, expect opposition and prepare. Time to test the waters????

[STEELIES/26c3]

http://www.kiene.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/IMG] Originally Posted by Darian http://www.kiene.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?p=167215#post167215)
Rather than endlessly complaining about this to no avail, why not at least try to work with a club/group of clubs/people of like mind who're interested in promoting conservation of Stripers; such as, the California Striped Bass Association. This entity has been around since 1974 and has an established membership. Numbers will count. Here's a quote from the History section of their website:

"....The CSBA is a non-profit organization to preserve, conserve and enhance striped bass while promoting recreational sport fishing, environmental awareness and good fellowship. CSBA is one of the largest and most active fishing clubs in California’s Central Valley."

Here's a link to their website:
http://striper-csba.com/

Seems like a good place to start to gain support to build a proposal to the Fish & Game Commission to change the section of the code making spearfishing in rivers legal.

I'll bet there're other clubs/organizations out there (locally CFFU and GBFF) that might be interested in this effort. Remember, the spearfishing organization made their approach without fanfare or opposition. It won't be the same this time, expect opposition and prepare. Time to test the waters????



Yah... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT~

CSBA has done a lot of good things for our striped bass, our fishing rights and for conservation and raising awareness of the issues facing our fisheries resources in general so I will not bad-mouth them.

However, they DO ENDORSE spearfishing for stripers as CDFW currently allows.


http://watermensalliance.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/STRIPED-BASS.pdf

I REALLY DO NOT LIKE the idea of spearfishing stripers in fresh water, nor even hook and line guys keeping hens over 10-12 lbs. but truth be told, the greatest threat to the striped bass populations and to all inland/anadromous fisheries is and will continue to be... the de-watering of the delta watershed by DWR, Westlands Water District and Metropolitan Water District of Southern California.

Know thy enemy and let it not divide and conquer us~

[Tony Buzolich]

YA-HOOOoooo ! Stay with this Mark and Steelies? (real name would be nice) . Steelies ? You left out the biggest predator of all in our rivers is the PIKE MINNOW aka. SQUAWFISH. Those damn thing eat more little fish than can humanly be imagined ALL YEAR LONG !

You steelhead and trout guys need to go see some of the cleaning stations upriver when a run of anything is on. The water below the stations is black with these things feeding on the guts of whatever is thrown in the water.. I'm talking about the guts of SALMON or STRIPED BASS, or catfish, or ANYTHING . Those squawfish stack up and just wait by the thousands for stuff to get thrown in.

I've never been so aware of a CONSTANT predatory source as the PIKE MINNOW (I'm being polite here), but the conservationists take the damn issue that " It's a NATIVE fish" and ought to be protected. What about MOUNTAIN LIONS ? Are they NATIVE ? Sure they are, and look what's been happening to our DEER population. And the number of sightings and attacks in close proximity to HUMANS ! Sure,,,,, protect those damn squawfish. Striped Bass are the LEAST of our predatory problems.

And, as for those damn SPEARGUN guys, aren't they just another BIGGER predator ? They don't give a shit about saving SALMON, they just want to BRAG about how BIG of a fish they KILLED. I bet most of those big female stripers don't even get eaten,,,, or at least they shouldn't with all the MERCURY they hold in their flesh. Read the back pages of the damn Fish & Game laws -rules book and it will tell how much striped bass to eat, and what size fish shouldn't be EATEN. And this is because of all the MERCURY in those bigger fish. I bet SQUAWFISH (if tested) would have an even higher MERCURY count than striped bass.

So what do these SPEAR GUYS do with these big spawners ? Eat them ? I bet not. I bet they might take a picture and throw the poor dead striper in a dumpster somewhere :( Sad, kill it for a picture and throw it away. Why not start shooting salmon too ? They'd make BIG easy targets too. (sarcasm here).

And it's NOT just the AMERICAN river we're talking about. SAD, pretty damn SAD.
Tony

[Rossflyguy]

Cormorant, green heron, great blue heron, white egret, cattle egret, great egret, bittern, several tern species, osprey, Heerman's gull, ring billed gull, kingfisher, merganser, bufflehead, goldeneye, Barrow's goldeneye, squawfish, rainbow trout, steelhead, smallmouth and largemouth bass, river otter, California sea lion, pacific lamprey are just a FEW (off the top of my head) of the many predators many of which eat as many or more salmonids during the various stages of their life cycle than stripers do....

If this were true then why trick smolt further down the river to bypass the stripers in the river. Like I said, striper do far more damage than any native predator. Living 100 yrs doesn't mean it's evolved to live with stripers. I also never said Striper were the only factor causing a decline. There are many factors. Striper, not being native, are one of them. PERIOD. There's no argument about that. If there weren't striper there'd be more making out to the ocean. That's a factual statement.

[Darian]

"Steelies",.... After reading the WA letter, agree that CSBA did endorse spearfishing for Striper in fresh/salt water. However, if you read the two prior sentences, CSBA members, "....showed up at the discussion meetings sometimes 400 at a time." That indicates to me that their endorsement could be modified or withdrawn with some effort. Also, CSBA is not the only organization around that might have an interest in this type of effort.

Short of making proposals to the commission to change this regulation, there's still the potential for approaching the Sacramento County Council with a proposed clarification to close the supposed "loop hole" allowing disassembling and reassembly of spears on the parkway to attempt to avoid a citation. This proposal could specifically ban that activity making the job of law enforcement easier. The impact of this change on the American River might be the reduction of the number of spearos upriver.

Realize, this is an emotional subject for everyone but if changing this situation is the choice, we need to recognize that many spearos are, also, fly and hook/line fisherman. They and Salmon/Steelhead above anything else crowd may/will oppose or at least not support this activity. So, it seems to me that an effort like this will need to include an educational component to "sell" the benefits of whatever our proposal(s) will be.

In reading the WA letter, it's evident that they approached their proposed change in an organized and reasonable fashion, and kept at it over the course of year(s). This type of effort would require time and won't be easy and unlike the spearfishers proposal, any attempt to modify or repeal the F&W regulation would be opposed.

Anyway, SeanO thanks for your support....

[STEELIES/26c3]

http://restorethedelta.org/train-the-water-advocate/

[M Duper]

Meeting Location for California Striped Bass Asssociation: Next meeting is 7/20/16 See you there!
CK Grill and Bar
14725 Harlan Rd.
Lathrop CA 95330
209-983-8881

Meeting Date and Time:
Third Wednesday of each Month at 6:30 p.m.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

https://www.fishwithjd.com/2013/05/21/spearfishing-for-stripers-a-hot-issue-on-the-american-river/

Found this one too.......

[STEELIES/26c3]

I remember when JD published that and I commended him for it.

I have now gone back 3+ years later... and read all the comments.

The comments reinforce what I have known for a LONG time... We no longer have a responsible government agency to represent the interest of our fish and wildlife OR for our rights to responsibly fish and hunt.

This is why, after working for and with the CA Dept. of Fish and Game, during my post-college career, I decided I clearly could not pursue a career with such a lame f-ck-ng agency~

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DqeW-BNg50#t=64.187786

This does not look very sporting.....or difficult.

Looks like commercial fishing?