Pilot Peak LCT returned to the Truckee

[loose_shoes]

For the first time in 80 years.

It will be interesting to see how they fare over the next few years. I wonder if any have been tagged.

http://www.rgj.com/videos/life/outdoors/2016/05/02/83686916/

[EricO]

That's hella cool. Ya, I'm wondering how the interaction with the rainbows and browns
will be. The big browns are gonna have a lot of 'em for snacks, but let's hope some grow
to a decent size and flourish!

[cdevine]

That's hella cool. Ya, I'm wondering how the interaction with the rainbows and browns
will be. The big browns are gonna have a lot of 'em for snacks, but let's hope some grow
to a decent size and flourish!

I'm not a biologist but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.... All kidding aside I say the browns and wild rainbows will only get bigger. The truckee is a tough nut to crack. Its not like these are going into a lake. Welcome to the real world at 1000+ CFS right now. It will be fun to go down with the kids and catch some of these but in terms of long term survival.....

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Exciting.....hope they can survive and make it an even more interesting fishery.

The Truckee River is very close for many who live in the Sacramento area.

When I was younger and fishing more aggressively we would drive up to the Truckee River in the summer for the evening hatch.

The Truckee River has a very powerful food source for big wild trout.

.

[Morgan]

More food for the truckee trout.
Lets hope a few make it to breed with the wild bows and make those gnarly massive cutbows.
I would like to see them do this with fertile browns again.

[amoeba]

More food for the truckee trout.
Lets hope a few make it to breed with the wild bows and make those gnarly massive cutbows.
I would like to see them do this with fertile browns again.

Not sure rainbows and pp cutts would spawn at same time in truckee so maybe not. They threw a bunch of pp cutts in fallen leaf lake too. Will see what happens with this.

[bigfly]

The thing that's kept me here all these years........is hot, wild, difficult McCloud strain rainbows...
Wana-be steelhead!!
Not dumb as a stump, fat hybrids. And, pure Cuts (if there are any...) are not exactly challenging.......
So, will we end up with fish anyone can catch.....not quality....just quantity? That should make "the most" people happy.
In ID. because of Cutthroat hybridization, on the s. fork of the Snake, they have no take for Cutties, and a dumpster for all the rainbows you can take. It's going to be that, or the fisheries guys will want to poison the river to get rid of everything that was introduced......but will wack the bugs too.....How are the bug hatches at Davis since the Pike fixes?
I believe in the value of indeginous fisheries, it's noble to want to recreate them where possible.....
Hope that's not in our future, I don't believe we can reset a messed up a Truckee eco-system...or should.
And even if they do rehab the Truckee....you know a "bucket biologist" will just reintroduce bows or browns anyway...
Why not stay with one of the best/hardest fishery on the west coast...
Many of the big bows here show some hybridization already.....
They (the tribe) has been putting them in the T for a few years on the bait section up towards Tahoe City...
The Tribe want folks to eat them, as is their custom too.
The Cuts sit in a school, in a pool until the bait guys are done....5 each please.......get in line please....
Or, they get eaten by big Browns.....
Without Dam removal, the strain is done in any natural realistic way in the main stem.
So the T would become yet another put and take fishery......BEEP BEEP BEEP, goes the truck...
with the stocking schedule posted on-line......
I don't believe we become better as a fisher, catching easy fish.......just another consumer.


Jim

[Idadon]

If the Yellowstone Cutt is any indication, they don't compete well wit Rainbows. Browns eat them for sure but Rainbows interbreed and the Cutt numbers drop drastically. The South Fork of the Snake is a great example. It's almost a crime to release a Rainbow or a Hybrid and they are now managing the spring flows to block the Bows spawning and help the Cutts. F & g actually has weirs installed on the spawning creeks and only allow the Cutts up the streams.

Bottom line is that if they want to restore a population of Cutts in a river get rid of the Rainbows. That's not likely to happen so why waste the taxpayers and license money. The damage was done when they first planted the Rainbows.

By the way, was there ever a native trout in Lake Tahoe?

[bigfly]

The LCTs moved through the Lake on the way to their head waters.
But like most migrating species, the Dams did the harm, not just the planting. That just sealed their fate.
The Lake now has an even more twisted ecology, than the river.
They have special cutthroat water up high, which is very cool.....
And they are ongoing as a fishery/hatchery at Pyramid, also cool...
Call it good......


Jim

[Jeff F]

The thing that's kept me here all these years........is hot, wild, difficult McCloud strain rainbows...
Wana-be steelhead!!
Not dumb as a stump, fat hybrids. And, pure Cuts (if there are any...) are not exactly challenging.......
So, will we end up with fish anyone can catch.....not quality....just quantity? That should make "the most" people happy.
In ID. because of Cutthroat hybridization, on the s. fork of the Snake, they have no take for Cutties, and a dumpster for all the rainbows you can take. It's going to be that, or the fisheries guys will want to poison the river to get rid of everything that was introduced......but will wack the bugs too.....How are the bug hatches at Davis since the Pike fixes?
I believe in the value of indeginous fisheries, it's noble to want to recreate them where possible.....
Hope that's not in our future, I don't believe we can reset a messed up a Truckee eco-system...or should.
And even if they do rehab the Truckee....you know a "bucket biologist" will just reintroduce bows or browns anyway...
Why not stay with one of the best/hardest fishery on the west coast...
Many of the big bows here show some hybridization already.....
They (the tribe) has been putting them in the T for a few years on the bait section up towards Tahoe City...
The Tribe want folks to eat them, as is their custom too.
The Cuts sit in a school, in a pool until the bait guys are done....5 each please.......get in line please....
Or, they get eaten by big Browns.....
Without Dam removal, the strain is done in any natural realistic way in the main stem.
So the T would become yet another put and take fishery......BEEP BEEP BEEP, goes the truck...
with the stocking schedule posted on-line......
I don't believe we become better as a fisher, catching easy fish.......just another consumer.


Jim

Hmmmm. Didn't know those rainbows were McCloud strain. That piqued my interest, so I did a search. Couldn't find anything on it, but ran across this very interesting piece on the demise of the original cutts in the Truckee system:

http://www.truckeehistory.org/demise-of-the-lahontan-cutthroat-trout.html

It does mention the McCloud, but it says McCloud River Alaska? I guess there's a McCloud river in Alaska too.

Anyway, very interesting read. Those fish and the Truckee River itself were abused to no end. Amazing it's come back from all that.

[John Sv]

A baller at DFW told me the genetics are so altered in our east side rainbow strains that there is not a strain any mo', only a genetic mishmash of Kamloops, McC, and Eagle lake. He also says very many of the T's 'wild fish' are really older holdovers. Recruitment is piss poor in the T, even in a good year. Plus with the fish dumped annually in the upper, Flycaster, and lower ends in most years, it seems plausible to me. (Besides as mentioned he is a baller which in an of itself makes it plausible) A good thing IMO because it demonstrates stockies can 'outgrow' their zombieness. Note: I did not say there are not wild rainbows in the T. A different baller at DFW told me last week that the trend will be to try and stock the fish according to their historic range; on the east side that means LCT. We will see more of that due to a regulation or advisory or opinion or whatever. Not sure what the heck that means for the east side south of Conway Summit since salmonids are not native.

[Paul B.]

The thing that's kept me here all these years........is hot, wild, difficult McCloud strain rainbows...
Wana-be steelhead!!
Not dumb as a stump, fat hybrids. And, pure Cuts (if there are any...) are not exactly challenging.......
So, will we end up with fish anyone can catch.....not quality....just quantity? That should make "the most" people happy.
In ID. because of Cutthroat hybridization, on the s. fork of the Snake, they have no take for Cutties, and a dumpster for all the rainbows you can take. It's going to be that, or the fisheries guys will want to poison the river to get rid of everything that was introduced......but will wack the bugs too.....How are the bug hatches at Davis since the Pike fixes?
I believe in the value of indeginous fisheries, it's noble to want to recreate them where possible.....
Hope that's not in our future, I don't believe we can reset a messed up a Truckee eco-system...or should.
And even if they do rehab the Truckee....you know a "bucket biologist" will just reintroduce bows or browns anyway...
Why not stay with one of the best/hardest fishery on the west coast...
Many of the big bows here show some hybridization already.....
They (the tribe) has been putting them in the T for a few years on the bait section up towards Tahoe City...
The Tribe want folks to eat them, as is their custom too.
The Cuts sit in a school, in a pool until the bait guys are done....5 each please.......get in line please....
Or, they get eaten by big Browns.....
Without Dam removal, the strain is done in any natural realistic way in the main stem.
So the T would become yet another put and take fishery......BEEP BEEP BEEP, goes the truck...
with the stocking schedule posted on-line......
I don't believe we become better as a fisher, catching easy fish.......just another consumer.


Jim

Thank you Jim. Well put

[amoeba]

I wanna see if the pp cutts they tossed in Fallen Leaf Lake grow up to any size and can be caught by fly. I dunno how productive that lake is. It sure is closer to Sacramento tho and less windy than Pyramid. Would be nice to have some more options.

Guess we'll have to wait 3-4+ yrs to find out.

[John Sv]

Do you know what strain went in Echo(s)? DFW told me they are expecting the 4 year olds to be 18" this year. They also are expecting decent holdover pops.

I wanna see if the pp cutts they tossed in Fallen Leaf Lake grow up to any size and can be caught by fly. I dunno how productive that lake is. It sure is closer to Sacramento tho and less windy than Pyramid. Would be nice to have some more options.

Guess we'll have to wait 3-4+ yrs to find out.

[Idadon]

Seems like so many of the decisions F&G makes is based on DOLLARS. trying to undo the damage now is likely impractical for most waters. Rainbows grow good in hatcheries, bait fishermen pay big bucks for licenses to go catch them. Jobs are generated and money is made. The world goes round! My home water, South Fork of the Snake, is a shining example of wasted effort. They actually shock and put chips in RB's now. Some are worth hundreds of dollars. Just cut the fishes head off, attach a provided tag to the head and put the head into a freezer box at the takeout. Maybe in another 100 years they might eradicate the Bows but at what cost?

[John Sv]

It is my understanding that CADFW (not sure about NDOW's stocking reasoning at Crystal Peak) are trying to build a larger constituency for LCT. Something like it used to be that all LCT stocked and not were subject to the LCT's status as threatened on the ESA. Same still applies but now there are wild population recovery fisheries and recreational fisheries. I really welcome that change, but not in the mainstream T. LCT's need more buddies. Plus they taste great! I'd love a Truckee River with an annual run of King Salmon sized LCT, but the river is too contrived now to be able to support that. But I applaud this in lakes and reservoirs with decent tribs. How fun would it be to fish the LCT run!?!


Seems like so many of the decisions F&G makes is based on DOLLARS. trying to undo the damage now is likely impractical for most waters. Rainbows grow good in hatcheries, bait fishermen pay big bucks for licenses to go catch them. Jobs are generated and money is made. The world goes round! My home water, South Fork of the Snake, is a shining example of wasted effort. They actually shock and put chips in RB's now. Some are worth hundreds of dollars. Just cut the fishes head off, attach a provided tag to the head and put the head into a freezer box at the takeout. Maybe in another 100 years they might eradicate the Bows but at what cost?

[bigfly]

I'm not a fisheries biologist....
After reading "The entirely synthetic fish, I noticed the club starting date, and the hatchery starting date, and the railroad connection.......
And heard hints from those involved with the club......
And combined those clues, with my expirience with steelhead behavior, and big wild bows here, and made an inference....I believe Upper Sac. (and tribs) Redband is close....
All I know, is I would like the T to remain the happy river it is.........few places are of this quality and difficulty.....

Jim

[John Sv]

Yo Jim!!!
Wasn't dissing you, just hopefully adding to the conversation!

I should add that my info from DFW isn't just because of an intense desire to hassle them about LCT. I've been working on the stocking allotment for when Webber Lake reverts to a public fishery in 2017. The Land Trust I work for owns the land around Webber. Lotsa contact with DFW for that. State is thinking LCTs due to the new policy, fyi.

[bigfly]

No sweat John....
My comments are from my hip...
I figure my opinion is one of many...
Just wanted to weigh in as well.
Could be an "old guy thing".
But I think common sense should rule....
Not common taste....or trend..

BTW.. there are "new local" fat fish that can go long......
But a few...make a jump to light speed..
And in heavy water, and up-stream...
Not the behavior of recovered "zombie fish" in my opinion, or others doing long term sampling....
It's why I'm here..swinging like they are Steelhead and have been using my Sage ONE 7wt switch......just in case.
(Or a big brown maybe...)
Perhaps if the fisheries guys had to fish'em, not just shock 'em.....it might be open for discussion, not forced..

Jim

[Morgan]

I wanna see if the pp cutts they tossed in Fallen Leaf Lake grow up to any size and can be caught by fly. I dunno how productive that lake is. It sure is closer to Sacramento tho and less windy than Pyramid. Would be nice to have some more options.

Guess we'll have to wait 3-4+ yrs to find out.

From my understanding they have been putting these fish in Fallen leaf for quite a few years now.
Just like Jim stated a few comments up....you can't restart a fishery.
We need to enjoy the fishery for what is has become over time.
The habitat for the cutts is no longer there in fallen leaf either.
Instead of letting it thrive as a fishery it has been doomed by man once again.
Gill netting the lake, putting up fish siene's so that the browns and rainbows can no longer spawn
For what? A fish that is never going to re-establish itself with its once native cutthroat.
Complete and utter bullshit if you ask me.
Just another piece of water that has been ruined by the bio-idiots who are trying to play god for a paycheck.

[John Sv]

"Just like Jim stated a few comments up....you can't restart a fishery. "
Just another piece of water that has been ruined by the bio-idiots who are trying to play god for a paycheck."

Says the guy that loves to fish Pyramid?

Look I don't want them to bleach out the Truckee and reinstate LCTs but most of the fisheries you probably fish were restarted at some point from no trout to trout. "Bio-idiots" had a big hand in creating the recreation experiences you love. "Bio-idiots" manage the Truckee in a much more hands-on fashion than you may know.

P.S. I'm not I biologist but work with many and think that your anger is misdirected.

[bigfly]

John, no anger, just a little sad...
The fisheries guy I chat with made it clear several years ago.
I'm just not a booster...
You can't have an actual LCT fishery with dams and rainbows....
So it seems like science, but doesn't appear to be possible, on the main stem of the T....
I've had my say.....no hard feelings.

Jim

[John Sv]

No need to be sad, I'll bet nothing substantive changes.

Just thought the "bio idiot" talk was a bit much and deserved a call out.

[Morgan]

No need to be sad, I'll bet nothing substantive changes.

Just thought the "bio idiot" talk was a bit much and deserved a call out.

John that was me.
Yes it was a bit harsh...but they need to look at the big picture and just enjoy what we have.
They may not be idiots...just blind.

And yes I love pyramid. And that is the last place in the area they thrive and grow to their true potential.
Places like Fallen leaf lake are not able to sustain a healthy cutthroat population.
The mackinaw that are in the lake will never be fully eradicated. They will continue to out compete the cutthroat.
The rainbows and browns were able to co exist with the macks. The cutthroat cannot.
So why ruin a once great fishery to try and return it back to its native state?

[John Sv]

Fallen Leaf has had a reproducing cutthroat population (small) for years if not forever. (the source is undetermined afaik) It was ground zero for trying to answer the "why aren't they being displaced by rainbows" question. As you said it can't sustain a healthy population as is. An acquaintance of mine that did the study did not refer to this population as healthy. He researched them through most of the 2000s before he moved on to studying giant Tamien in Lake Baikal area. Dude has what most of us would call a dream job. I remember one time he contacted me asking if I knew of a good skating pattern to mimic a duckling!

[Morgan]

Fallen Leaf has had a reproducing cutthroat population (small) for years if not forever. (the source is undetermined afaik) It was ground zero for trying to answer the "why aren't they being displaced by rainbows" question. As you said it can't sustain a healthy population as is. An acquaintance of mine that did the study did not refer to this population as healthy. He researched them through most of the 2000s before he moved on to studying giant Tamien in Lake Baikal area. Dude has what most of us would call a dream job. I remember one time he contacted me asking if I knew of a good skating pattern to mimic a duckling!


That sounds like a job we would all love so dearly.
Very cool.