Pontoon Search- the final chapter?

[JayDubP]

Following is a summary of my journey, hope it helps someone who is thinking about buying an inflatable. Two pieces of advice: 1) test as many different styles as you can and use them on the type of water you will use them in real life and 2) get the input of as many people as you can- especially their dislikes. Phil Ryan gave me some great advice-- buy the best you can afford because any leak or puncture on the water could be disaster. There are a couple of cheap(er) inflatables out there, but I discounted them early on.

For past year I have been test driving inflatables. Owned a 9' frameless with fixed bottom and a framed Outcast Pac series plus used 6 others on rivers and most on Class III.

I made a final decision at the Pleasanton Show... and surprised even myself.

My requirements:
1) Able to pack small so can transport by SUV, RV or car
2) Be able for 1 older person to carry and to lift on top of SUV for short hauls.
3) Quality- want to treat it normally (bounce off rocks, drag onto shore, run over snags)
4) I need to feel safe and be comfortable in Class III plus be confident the boat can handle Class IV
5) open bottom so I can stop and fish without anchoring or beaching....and easy to exit and enter on water
6) under 10 mins to unpack and be ready to float.
7) Feel I can rely on the manufacturer to fix any issues quickly and without hassle.

I have used:
SCADDEN: Renegade (frameless 9') , Skynomish Sunrise (framed 10') and Navigator (open-bottom, kayak-style)
OUTCAST: Pac 900FS (famed 9'), Stealth Pro (frameless 9') and the lightweight Pac 9
WATERMASTER: Grizzly, 8' open bottom raft
SEA EAGLE PRO: 285fp- 9' frameless with solid bottom (great for slow moving or still water and motoring use)

Going to the Pleasanton Fly Fishing Show my top 3 were: Scadden; Outcast; and Watermaster.

At the Show, all that changed:
SCADDEN: loved the concept of their boats but close exam of the construction and their materials had me rethinking. Their ultra-lightweight stuff sounds cool, but reminds me of Sevylor or Walmart toy rafts. I don't feel they would survive my normal use). Plus after talking to Dave Scadden I left feeling like I would not want to be on the water in one of their boats, that everything would be fine unless there was a problem. Probably more to do with me than him, but lots of unhappy Scadden owners..

OUTCAST: nothing changed- they are quality & first class, but it came down to the fact a cover/internal bladder boat does not pack as small as a bladderless boat. Outcast was the most professional (kudos to their guy, Kellen Kinghorn) and showed they are a well-run organization that makes and stands behind quality products. Their 9' Stealth Pro frameless U boat is very well designed and at $999 is one of the best deals available. The Commander, a 10ft kayak-style is solid. It is better designed, better materials and better construction than the Scadden Navigator but is also 32lbs. Outcast is selling the Commander in last year's color for $699 on their website. Their new 2 person bladderless OSG Stryker raft is only 10'5" but just screams "let's go fishing on Class IV water." Rock solid, but it is $2400.

WATERMASTER: By far the most expensive (30- 60% more). Plus they only make 2 sizes of the same boat. I found that everyone who owns a Watermaster is fanatic. Guides and whitewater guys were adamant this was the best fishing inflatable. The fact that I could never find a used Watermaster said a lot about their customer satisfaction and quality. Used ones rarely hit the market and if they do, they are sold in a day. Plus at the Pleasanton show Rich Stuber was a no BS guy who seems to take great pride in building high quality rafts designed for fly fishing.

Last summer I used the 8' Grizzly on some Class III water and had some dislikes due to its size... all of which went away when I examined their Kodiak- a 9'L x 4" W, open-bottom, closed-front raft with 16" dia tubes on sides & 20" tubes on front and rear.
Small things like carry handles inside the tubes, so you and pick up the boat and walk onto shore, no need to drag it by the front. Rod holders, side bag with mesh area plus built in cup holders, firm seat back, behind the seat storage, large side bag storage and a rear cargo net and other items- all within easy reach. I bought the upgraded Expedition Package, but did not get the anchor mount/motor mount- which I will get if we decide to do some RVing.

I did buy 1 option that no other company offers... the "Attachable Raft Bottom" which turns this open-bottom boat into a solid bottom raft and a better motoring boat- I probably will only use this 1-3 times a year, but now my wife cannot say she cannot go with me (even though she does not want to). It basically is a cover that fits over the bladders... pretty smart design. Not in their brochure or on their website yet. It has been such a hit they already have a 3 week backorder.

Absolutely the best layout for fly fishing plus thickest tubes in this style of raft. Watermaster has 2 air chambers but not each side... front and rear sections are separate chambers, which would be easier to handle with a leak and you could still row to get off the water. I immediately felt safe. A few extra $$$ won't mean much if you are sinking.

Also the "rockered" (tube has raised ends) vs non-rockered (entire tube flat on water)-- I see the need when you have 2 separate pontoons because the boat would be a pain to turn and if the pointed ends were flat, they could go underwater easily.... BUT not in a closed-front boat. Especially in moving water. where I think more tube in the water equals more control and more buoyancy.

BTW: a big concern I had was how difficult it was to climb out and in a closed-front raft while standing in 2-3ft of water-- the owner of the raft I used told me "that is just the way it is". Rich Stuber told me that you tie down your rod and simply lift the front of the boat up and walk out (or in)-- no stepping or climbing needed.

Thanks to everyone who has given my input and helped me over this journey.

jim

[drdan]

Fantastic summary and recommendations Jim. What if you wanted to pay a bit less and would be willing to sacrifice a bit on the white water capabilities? I doubt if I will need much past Class 2.... Thanks, Dan

[JayDubP]

Post an adv here... and bet you'd get a bunch of replies for inflatables and hard shell sit on top boats.

Do not buy a new cheap inflatable. Buy a used top brand like Outcast (they also make Fish Cat, Discovery and Aire); Bucks Bags; or Scadden. BUT examine it closely and make sure there are not any deep cuts or bulges. You should be able to find one from $300 to $700. On Craigslist Sacramento there is a 9ft Outcast for $500 and a Outcast kayak-style for $325. Not sure if Kiene's carried any rafts or pontoons, but if so, go see them and see if they can work within your price range.

If you are going to fish rivers, I'd get a boat that allows you to stand in the river and fish (pontoon, U shaped or open-bottom)- otherwise you will just use the boat to ferry you from fishing spot to fishing spot. Anchoring or using fins in a river can be dicey.

If you are going to fish the Lower Yuba or similar water where you do not have to carry the boat much and if storage is not tight., you should consider a hard shell sit-on-top kayak. About the same price used as an inflatable. For bigger water (American, Lower Sac) , go for 9ft at least.

BUT- before you buy, decide how you will really use this boat.. that will narrow the field down.

PS: if you are going to float the Lower Yuba or if you are not really experienced on the river, take one of Lance Gray's Pontoon Workshops so you can learn the basics.

[steveg137]

Jim thanks million for updating us. My needs are pretty much the same and I'll now research the water master . Want to treat myself to frameless to reduce set up time.

Cheers steve

[Spicytuna1]

That is all great info.

would it be to much to ask for a rating on all of them.

I might possibly have an upcoming budget of $1k or less and was trying to figure out what would work best for my needs. It would be nice to have something I could load down for 2 or 3 day float and easily be able to do a day float.

Also be able to handle up to Class III stuff.

Tanks for all that info and I hope it helps me figure out where I need to be. The water-master is out of my $$ range

[daveiam]

Excellent summary.

[JayDubP]

Spicytuna1: I am not an expert, just a guy who searched for something suitable for my needs. Like I posted to drdan, I'd bet if you posted here, you'd get bunch of relies and probably could test drive several boats.

Your request is a tall order for me- so consider everything I posted in reply to drdan plus:

Framed pontoons are best if you have room to store them, transport them or take time to assemble and carry them at 50- 90lbs.
9ft or 10ft is best for any real whitewater. One huge difference is oars. Framed pontoons tend to have longer oars and oar locks are 6-12" above the top of the tube, while unframed pontoons or rafts the oarlocks are molded into the top of the tube, so you row at flatter angle and oars are shorter on frameless, so frameless boats are harder to row on still or slow moving water and harder to control in whitewater- not bad, you just have to look further ahead.
Never heard of this happening, but I read a lot of concerns about a frameless pontoon getting an oar stuck in a rock in whitewater and what might happen if the molded oarlock ripped out of the tube. I have heard of oars breaking because they got stuck in downstream side.


I am not a fan of Scadden's newer lightweight models, but his older models seem well-made. From what I have read, they seem to have too many defective units, primarily seams but the ones without any defects seem to have happy owners. Whitewater forums are harsh on Scadden, especially his claims that his boats can handle Class IV and V water.

There are several makers who offer two smaller pontoons on each side (vs 1 pontoon on each side)- I have used the Outcast FishCat Panther and talked to a couple of owners who said the same thing: because it rides low in the water it is great for shallow water and holds better in the wind, but not a choice for above Class II. In dead water it seemed to row as badly as every other pontoon I have used.

IN YOUR PRICE RANGE: Here are my recommendations in order of my rating: ( as Dalton said: "opinions vary")

FRAMED:
...9 or 10ft Outcast (Fish Cat) If you want to stand up, their 9-IR and 10-IR are good choices and often on Cragislist. .
...Scadden Skynomish Sunrise at 10'6" is as good as there is, has stand up and motor mount, but it is a big boat for big water (Lower Sac), heavy and tough to move by yourself without the wheel attachment. They seem to resell slowly.
...Scadden Outlaw X5 is a framed U shaped pontoon with stand up deck& motor mount. Used is $1000- 1300.
...Bucks Bags has several 9ft styles with 18" dia tubes while most other companies use 16" dia tubes-
Bucks Bags are super well made & would be my choice for lots of whitewater use.

BUT- in less than a 10ft pontoon - Class III will be difficult & you'd better look far ahead. Class IV will be a challenge in a 10ft pontoon and borderline dangerous in 9ft... they should be left for people who know what they are doing.

FRAMELESS:
....Scadden Renegade is a 9ft, U shaped pontoon is their most popular U boat. Used price is $4-600. seem to sell fast.
...Outcast Stealth Pro is $999 new and is a well made U pontoon. . I think it is 35lbs or so. Well outfitted for fishing.

MY 2ND CHOICE WAS (after the Watermaster Kodiak): (if you can find a used one in your price range, grab it):
Scadden Assault X or XX
They are bladderless, open-bottom, closed front rafts that could pack a lot of stuff and handle whitewater. Assault X is one person (32lbs) and new is $1,199. XX is 2person and new is $1,699. If you find used, examine all seams to make sure they were made right-- lots of online comments on variations in quality. XX is only a foot or so longer than the X.

Dave Scadden told me the frame from his Dragonfly series will fit the Assault series (boats are made from same mold) , or you might be able to find a used frame somewhere. That would give you best of both worlds: without the frame, a 35-42lb boat you could easily transport and carry for day trips & use with fins-- or add a frame for use with a motor or whitewater and long trips. Adding a frame is not cheap, because you need different oars also & the tie downs.

[tdrfishoot]

Thanks for the excellent comparisons.
I have a Water Strider, similar to the Water Master, and am very satisfied with it. Very durable, made by a guy named Dave Inks in Montana.
Tim

[StillWater]

I just bought a Water Master. Love its simplicity and function. Handles great.

[itsbenlong]

Nice bit of info JayDubP.........

I went through a similar process last year and ended up getting the WaterStrider http://waterstrider.com/.

I am thoroughly satisfied with this raft and it has exceeded my expectations in almost every way.

The WaterStrider is very similar to the Water Master. As a matter of Fact the owner of WaterStrider used to work on the Water Master rafts years ago and moved on to create a raft he felt is a bit better.

These rafts are tough as hell and extremely light. The only thing that takes it down a notch is Frog Water.......although it moves through it okay, it does take a little work. However, it is a great workout and that doesn't hurt.

I love this raft.....It is light, packs small, easy to get to the water and can go anywhere. The best thing about it is, you can stand up at anytime and move/fish through a run without getting out of the raft. By the way, you are standing on the river bottom, not the raft.

It also rolls through skinny water very easily and when it gets to shallow, you can stand and walk it through.

It would take a lot to tip this over......

I just tested it out for the first time on still water. I brought both my float tube and my WaterStrider. To make a long story short, I started with my float tube for a few hours and spent the next 2 days on my WaterStrider. It was the best and I loved having all the extra room. By the way, we fished for 3 days in heavy winds and rain up by Lassen National Park the weekend of March 12th. I think the reports said the winds were 12 mph with 25 - 30 mph gusts. It was extreme and that Saturday it never stopped raining to add to the misery. The WaterStrider handled as well as anything you could ask for.

Anyway, I can't wait to get back out there. I have been on several different rivers and lakes this year on this raft and it has changed everything for me, especially when Steelhead fishing. 11795

[JayDubP]

itsbenlong: Good points. Waterstrider makes good products. Their boat is almost identical to the Watermaster Grizzly. ( WS is 7'8" L WM is 7'10" L). Overall they look almost identical. Except for branding & inflatable seat on WM, it is hard to tell the difference. WM Grizzly is priced less than the WS.

I have the bigger Watermaster Kodiak which is 9ft long, 51"+- wide with larger dia tubes and 750lb capacity vs 500lbs for Grizzly & Waterstrider. I am 6'2" and the extra length inside means a lot to my rowing comfort.

Rear deck on Kodiak is longer and wider, which is needed for transporting my folding bike and folding bike trailer (used to shuttle everything from take out to put in). My maiden trip with the bike & trailer is planned for the low flow area of the Feather next week. I will post pics after that trip.

Frog water is a pain in any human-powered craft, not just inflatables. I don't think the non-rockered design is noticeable harder to row in flat water than a rockered U boat or cataraft pontoon, especially when you really have to get on the oars-- but that is my opinon.

[itsbenlong]

I hear you JayDubP......that is a sweet setup. I was actually looking at that originally, but ended up with the WaterStrider for a few reasons; weight (18.6 vs 27lbs), price (got a good deal), Manufacturer (INCEPT white water rafts) and a personal connection with Dave Inks...........Regardless, I would have been happy with any of the 3 boats.....I was really just writing about these types of boats not trying to say one is better than the other. They are so versatile and easy to handle! I agree with you also on that frog water situation....any inflatable is a bust....lol

Hopefully see you out of the water someday and awesome write up by the way!

[Spicytuna1]

I am looking at a Fish cat Panther and Fish cat Ir 10 stand up.

Any advice or experience with these?? A little worried the Ir10 will be a bit heavy if I have to portage or need to drag boat to river.

I like the idea of being able to stand up and fish, however I also like the idea of being more low profile to row through frog water.

Torn like an old sweater here

[JayDubP]

I am looking at a Fish cat Panther and Fish cat Ir 10 stand up.

Any advice or experience with these?? A little worried the Ir10 will be a bit heavy if I have to portage or need to drag boat to river.

I like the idea of being able to stand up and fish, however I also like the idea of being more low profile to row through frog water.

Torn like an old sweater here

Sounds like you are feeling what everyone feels going through this.

Weight: 9 ft Panther is 67lbs and 10ft IR is 92lbs. BTW: 9ft IR is 65lbs.

If standing up is important, then go for the IR series. If Weight is important, go for the Panther or find a 9ft. If you are going to do a lot of stillwater fishing, go with the Panther OR..you can run a motor on the IR.

Panther: low profile is plus in wind and Stillwater plus on stillwater it is almost as easy as a float tube to move with fins..
BUT its low profile is negative on moving water...you & your stuff will get wetter and your limit should be Class II water. You can do Class III water in it but always smart to line or portage.
Frog water- from my 1 time using a Panther, I did not find it noticeable different than other pontoons or inflatables.

IR10- yes, it is a big boat. But you'd be safe & pretty dry on almost all California rivers. (if you stay in water that fits your skills)

You can make an inexpensive dolly out of 1" or 1-1/4" PVC schedule 40 with 2 wheels from Harbor Freight. I did not glue all the pieces, so it could be pulled apart to fit in my SUV (and take with me on the boat). One web strap held the pontoon on the dolly.