Sage z axis 11' 5 weight switch rod

[Frank Gonsalves]

Which rio scandi body line do you recommend for this rod?

[bigfly]

I once asked the Sage rep for advice on this....
He said up-line two for a Sage single hand, and three for a two-hander.
Maybe go two up to get your cast on.....
If you've got it going...go three.
I find, the extra mass does more work at distance.
My favorite is the Rio Steehead taper.
Good luck dialing it in.

Jim

[JD]

Considering that they make switch rod lines by weight now, perhaps you might consider one of those rather than using the old trial-and-error method of uplining, as bigfly outlined. Orvis and Rio both make a switch line that is scandi-ish, and Rio also makes the "chucker" line that is a bit more skagit-ish. I'm sure there are others out there, but these are the lines I'm most familiar with, and work fine or my switch rods (although I do not have a Sage). YMMV.

[Jeff C.]

I use my 5 wt Z-Axis switch rod primarily for indo nymphing. I've got it lined with an 8 wt Rio Atlantic Steelhead line and it works great. When I did use it for two-handed casting I used a 400 grain Rio Max Skagit short on it. Can't make any recommendations on a Scandi head but I do use a 385 grain Rio Scandi head with my 5119 TCX and it casts a mile with 10 ft. poly leaders.

[PV_Premier]

i am just getting into 2 hand but i put a 5wt rio switch chucker on my rig (redington dually 5110-4) and so far so good. i also bought a 7wt scientific anglers steelhead taper that i intend to put on the other spool for nymphing but i haven't spooled or cast it yet.

rio has a few recommendations for lines on different rods in their spey chart: http://www.rioproducts.com/RIO-Spey-Line-Recs.pdf -- unfortunately your specific rod is not included in their chart though.

[bigfly]

Considering that they make switch rod lines by weight now, perhaps you might consider one of those rather than using the old trial-and-error method of uplining, as bigfly outlined. Orvis and Rio both make a switch line that is scandi-ish, and Rio also makes the "chucker" line that is a bit more skagit-ish. I'm sure there are others out there, but these are the lines I'm most familiar with, and work fine or my switch rods (although I do not have a Sage). YMMV.

Since it was a Sage rep that I asked, and he is an FFF master caster, I didn't consider it a trial and error method.
I provided the info so you didn't have to use that method.
Each of us castes a little different to start with, and a lot different from when we start casting, to a point when we have cast for years.....
I prefer a heavier line now that I have some game.
Earlier this week I saw a guy working too hard to cast....I asked him what line he was using...and his line was a 5.5wt, on a 5wt....and was what he learned with...I pulled the reel off my rod and had him cast it on his..he started smiling....
But only because first he had worked up to it.

As the other member said.....an 8wt line on that 5wt rod will be about right.

Jim

[bigfly]

Skagit for me is fun, but a little repetitive... cast, strip till your line is at the sweet spot, cast, strip.......repeat till numb...
The chucker type lines turn over your junk OK..but are not really subtle enough to cast a dry, and have shorter belly so roll-cast range is still limited a bit.
So, my favorite style, is Rio's Atlantic Salmon line.
If up-lined 2-3, you can throw a dry, turn over nymph rigs from hell, with 12-14ft leader, and 4-6 AAA split shot (Truckee style), and with a sinking leader you can swing streamers in medium sized water.
I enjoy being able to mend easily "over there", and pick up and cast anywhere along the line...
Try it, you'll like it....

Jim

[troutless]

Rio scandi body for a Z-axis 5110, as pointed out, a good place to start, would be the rio recs.

On the Rio recs...since the Z-Axis is out of production, you want the "old rods" chart, which is here:

http://www.rioproducts.com/skin/summit/pdf/old-spey-line-recommendations.pdf

Not surprisingly, the recommendation for your rod is the SSVT (scandi body + short tip) in #5 or #6. You do NOT upline a two-handed rated line, which the Rio scandi lines are, for a two handed rod. #8 scandi line on a #5 switch is about the point of overload you may pop the rod.

2-3 size upline a SINGLE-handed line, yes.

[Terry Thomas]

Interesting, most would assume because it has the "Scandi" name attached, it is a Scandi taper...not quite. This line was designed to be used with tips and in my opinion comes pretty close to a Skagit. It certainly does get the job done, but don't get the illusion that you are winging those heavy tips with a Scandi. Here's Rio's write up:
The Scandi body is a short body to which a multitude of tips can be attached – it is the most versatile design of all, and blends Skagit power with Scandi grace. It is ideal for anglers that want to travel light, yet have multiple fishing options. To the front end of the body anglers can attach regular 10 ft & 15 ft tips, MOW tips, “T” tips, iMOW tips or VersiLeaders, and with two different body densities to choose from (floating, intermediate and Sink 4), all water conditions are covered.

[troutless]

Interesting, most would assume because it has the "Scandi" name attached, it is a Scandi taper...not quite. This line was designed to be used with tips and in my opinion comes pretty close to a Skagit.
The "Scandi Body" is designed as a multi-tip line, so, yes, by definition, designed to be used with tips. It is still a scandi taper. It is not a skagit. It is a scandi cut for tips. I interpret the Rio marketing blurb as trying to thread the needle-of-confusion around fly shops educating their customers that scandi lines cannot throw tips, for the tautology that most scandi lines sold are, well, not cut for tips.

We can debate what exactly is the definition of a scandi vs. skagit line, or any other terminology, but in the end what matters is how the line matches to the rod (a lot to do with the form of the back of the line), and how the line matches to tips/leaders (a lot to do with the form of the front of the line). Most lines marketed as "scandi" are relatively heavy in the back, lighter in the front. So let's look at some actual measurements (!!!) to see where the Rio "Scandi Body" falls.

In these graphs I am going to show data from my files from measuring out, with a Mitutoyo thickness gauge (aka micrometer), at every foot, the diameter of various Skagit and scandi lines. The particular lines chosen were a group of Skagits in the 8-wt range: SA Skagit Extreme, 600 gr; the classic Rio "beercan" skagit, also 600gr; Airflo Compact, 570 gr; and the ill-fated Rio "Flight", 575gr. The scandis will be the Rio "Scandi Body, in 9wt, 455gr, and, a full SE Scandi Extreme, 580gr. These last two are roughly comparable given the 15' Rio tip will be around 130 gr bringing the total line weight for the Rio scandi into the 580s. The SE Scandi Extreme is a full line so I have only shown measurements for the back portion, in order to make an appropriate comparison with the "scandi body" and Skagits which come tip-less. One might note the "9wt"-rated Scandi body is lighter than all the Skagits, lines that would typically match to 8wt rods. There is a reason for this.

Our first plot compares the SA, Airflo, and "beercan" skagits with the "scandi body". The defining feature of the Skagit heads is that all the Skagits are mostly level for the first 2/3, or more, of the line. Necessarily that makes the tips pretty fat too -- which is exactly what we want to manage big flies and heavy sink tips.

Conversely, the Rio scandi, despite being lighter overall, a lot lighter, actually has *more* weight in the back. But the taper starts only 1/3 or so from the back of the line, and it is pretty sharp, becoming much thinner as we pass the 20-foot mark. If that isn't a scandi taper, I don't know what is. That excess weight in the back is why, if matching a rod like a skagit head, meaning, for example, putting a 455gr 9wt body on a 7wt, or, worse, 6wt rod, the rod will be overloaded by a good bit. Likewise, it should be obvious that that same taper extended out to 37', meaning, with a floating tip attached/intact, is not going to have much capability whatsover to turn over sinking tips. But it appears this needs to be restated regularly.

Now one might still argue, well, maybe that scandi body is just "in between" a skagit and scandi. So let's compar another scandi line, the SE "Scandi Extreme". This comparison is shown in the bottom part of the figure. Well, the "scandi body" taper is *even more* pronounced than the SA scandi. Should not really be a surprise given the reputation of the Rio scandi's for long, light tips. So, again, if the Rio "scandi body", isn't a scandi taper, please tell me the definition of "scandi taper", 'cause it sure looks like a scandi taper to me.

Bottom line....any way you name it...there is enough thickness/mass in the front of the Rio "scandi body" to turn over moderately heavy tips, though probably not as heavy as most of the skagits can (the 9wt scandi body profiled here is close to 11gr/ft at the tip, the 8wt Airflo skagit around 16 gr/ft). And there is a different enough taper profile that the scandi body is (1) not interchangeable on a grain-for-grain basis with skagit rod ratings, (2) IS interchangeable on a line-weight basis with scandi rod ratings.

To be continued....

11659

[troutless]

In the last post I mentioned the 575 gr Rio Skagit Flight, which has now shuffled off this mortal coil, but without presenting data. For a reason. It's pretty well known the Flight didn't have the greatest reputation for turning over big tips. [Thus that mortal coil thing.] Maybe if we define a "Skagit" to be the "Rio Flight", a "Scandi body" is, indeed, like a skagit?

Well, in the figure below, the top compares the "scandi body" with the "skagit flight". These two are starting to look a little closer, but, they are still noticeable different. But what about the SA scandi -- which didn't have as pronounced a taper as the Rio "scandi body"? That's in the bottom part of the figure. Gosh......that's spooky close. Which is skagit, which is scandi, what do these terms mean here?

To be clear, in my opinion this comparison mostly illustrates what an atypical taper, for what most people expect out of a Skagit head, the Flight was. Is it fair to say the Flight qualified as a Skagit mostly by virtue of being sold without a tip? Or by virtue of being more skagit-like than its Rio-scandi stable sibling?

In any case these comparisons show how much modern fly lines designs can converge. And this is far from the only example I've found.

11660

[bigfly]

Troutless, my older Z-Axis 6 wt switch loves the 9 wt line I run on it. And my 5wt throws a 7-8wt Skagit short like butter........
The Rio Atlantic Salmon taper is for two handed rods I'm pretty sure....not trying to send someone bad info.
Line debate is endless, everyone has a different opinion about it, just sharing a guides perspective on what I use.
I have never owned a micrometer nor will I be getting around to it.......I can generally either cast a line or not.
Not into Scandi lines much so I won't weigh in on that.

The line is considered "freshwater" and suited for singlehand or spey.
http://www.rioproducts.com/skin/summit/images/product_profiles/InTouch-Salmo-Steelhead.jpg

Jim

[troutless]

The Rio Atlantic Salmon taper is for two handed rods I'm pretty sure....



I agree this line makes a fine match for a light spey. And yes when I cast then on my light speys I upline 2-3 sizes. It's also a fine line for single-handed speycasting, if the caster can handle the head length. However, the line rating is a single-handed rating, meaning, rated by weighing the first 30 feet and matching to the AFTM table (e.g., 210 gr for an 8-wt). Here is the full table:

http://www.rioproducts.com/fly-lines/freshwater/specialty/intouch-salmo-steelhead/

And a grab

11673

I believe Rio used to quote the whole head weight for the SAS, which, since the heads are in the 50-foot range, is potentially fairly confusing, but that line was always rated as a single-hander and I am 99% sure the design intent was to match weight-to-weight on a single-handed rod.

The two-handed AFFTA standard has different weigh points (in length) so it is hard to make apples-to-apples comparisons, but for a given line rating they are generally heavier.




Troutless, my older Z-Axis 6 wt switch loves the 9 wt line I run on it. And my 5wt throws a 7-8wt Skagit short like butter........



Like you said different people have different preferences in line feel. At the same time there are defined standards that are not ambiguous, and there is also the rather looser set of standards defined by how manufacturers label their rods. For the most part where two-handed lines and rods carry a rating the intent is to match them up, +/- one increment. I'm told by people who design lines that quite a bit of effort is put into determining the line ratings so they match a reasonably wide set of rods out-of-the-box. If, for whatever reason, you want to deliberately overline by going up three sizes, fine, but recognize that is what you are doing, and, with the possible exception of sustained-anchor casting, is not going to be a general recommendation. Likewise that much upline is putting the equipment much closer to its failure point. A 625-650gr skagit (typical 9wt rating) on a 6-wt switch is an awful lot of line, even more so if it is a "short". I personally would be very concerned about rod failure with a rig like that.

[troutless]

That is the make of line I have that I tried on my 7/8 13' but wf9f will try on a 6wt switch. It was to much work for the 13'er, not sure now if I should go to a 10/11 in the same line, could I break my rod or even the switch with the 9wt?

What line are you asking about, exactly?

[bigfly]

OK....the 9 wt is 325gr. Must be single rating...
The skagit max short is 500gr in a 7wt.
Both work fine on the 6wt. Z...
After digging the line out....my 5wt likes a 425 gr. skagit max short.
If it was too much...I would have broken the rod years ago.....
Have fun out there.

Jim

[troutless]

..
After digging the line out....my 5wt likes a 425 gr. skagit max short.


So you've got around a 6wt line on a 5wt rod. Doesn't sound unreasonable.

[troutless]

I got the box out and it's a airflo not Rio but its an older delta spey salmon/steelhead 8/9wt

An old Airflo delta 8/9? OK, so, what is the question? Should be possible on a 13' 7/8, generally I wouldn't go heavier -- assuming the rod is really a 7/8. Does require proper training & technique and maybe a little experience.

[Mr T]

Gotta say- I've been fly fishing for a long time but new to two handed rods, and it's bewildering!

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Most two handed fly rods today are pretty good......but you might need some help picking the right size for your first one.

Eventually, having 2 two handed fly rods is pretty standard.


Then you need to be very sure you have the right line on it.

The line we had even 10 years ago where just OK. Today they are fantastic coming in about 30 grain increments.



Then you need to get out with someone for some lessons.

Jeff Putnam, Doug Duncan and Andy Guibord are all in Sacramento and can give you a couple of hours of instruction down on the Lower American River for a reasonable price. Lots of us taught our selves how to cast a single hand fly rod, but not so easy with the two handers.

**Doug Duncan and Andy Guibord are usually always working together on Sundays at the shop. Stop by, bring in your two handed gear and get some free advise.
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