Spear Fishers on the American river

[Mark V]

Yesterday morning fished the American river with a friend and had a good time with over 50 dinks to the boat; only one was near 18"er. Then around 10:30a we came across 2 guys snorkelling & spearfishing just downstream of the "golden gate" bridge below Howe Ave.

Couldn't see if they were carrying spears, so asked one guy, "Do you have a spear?" He said yes, so I mentioned about the County regulation against bringing a spear on the bank. He acknowledged he knew about the Reg, and said he didn't want to have the conversation, so he then would not answer when asked several times where did he park?

As the boat drifted downstream and my friend cast for more stripers, called the Rangers (875-7275) on my cell.. hit "1" to report a crime or request a Ranger. It rang off the hook with no answer! Several times the next 20 mins. Bummer. Maybe was naive to believe their office when they said they will enforce against that.

In hindsight, maybe I shoulda let him know my boats a jet, so no propeller... and then buzzed that side of the river section a few times to spook any big striper hens.

Heads up some spear guys are illegally working the American. I plan to follow up with the Rangers office until I get through.

[Tony Buzolich]

How bad does this have to get before anyone takes action? Mark, I applaud you for trying to get through to the "Rangers" but maybe it's time for a real vigilante squad of volunteers to" take up arms" so to speak. Those of you who fish the American regularly ought to be first in line and have that phone number as a part of their cell directory. Why not call the "regular" police department as well to report a crime? Maybe they can get through to the ineffective rangers. Maybe the Sacramento be ought to be made aware how ineffective both the rangers and the police are in NOT taking action?

I can assure you guys up this way would have run over or shot folks spearing anything in this area and they would be supported by the local authorities.
Tony

[Mark V]

Tony, Thanks for the empathy.

Yes lets spread the word and be vigilant as a community, report it and try to get enforcement. I hope no one will take the V word too far.

Didn't think to call the reg police, but I believe that would be the Sac Co. Sheriff, and anyone who's reported a grand theft to SCS in the last few years knows how under-staffed/ -funded they think they are.

My buddy I was fishing with said I should be careful not to be too confrontational near those guys cuz you never know how truly crazy and reckless they can be. Packing guns?

I guess briefly breaking the 5mph speed limit on the river is about as far as I'd go to blunt the lawlessness of spearfishers. A pacifist at heart, but sure there was anger in my voice yesterday, and I def coulda been craftier with my words and tone, maybe try to convince them that law is enforced and not cheap..

[Mike O]

How bad does this have to get before anyone takes action? Mark, I applaud you for trying to get through to the "Rangers" but maybe it's time for a real vigilante squad of volunteers to" take up arms" so to speak. Those of you who fish the American regularly ought to be first in line and have that phone number as a part of their cell directory. Why not call the "regular" police department as well to report a crime? Maybe they can get through to the ineffective rangers. Maybe the Sacramento be ought to be made aware how ineffective both the rangers and the police are in NOT taking action?

I can assure you guys up this way would have run over or shot folks spearing anything in this area and they would be supported by the local authorities.
Tony

Wow. Run over or shot people pursuing a legal fish in a legal manner. A fish.

[O.mykiss Hunter]

Yeah, I'm with Mike O on this one. I don't like the idea if spearfishers in the American, but retaliating with violence seldom leads to good results. In my opinion no fish is worth that level action.

[Mark V]

The SpearFisher clearly knew he broke the county law against bringing the spear to the banks of the river. That's not persuit in a legal manner--period. He clammed up when asked where they parked-- further evidence of consciousness of guilt.

Persuing a fish is different from taking steps to annihilate a population of sportfish in the region. Taking out super breeder hens like shooting them in a barrel in the American effects numbers of generations of stripers in the American and the Sac river, and the Feather, etc. Lets be clear these guys are not bright, or selfish or both.

Mr. Buzolich expressed a natural reaction to this calculated illegal activity, much like I did with my language on the water, but I noticed he did not directly call for shooting or running over any of said nice ppl.

Let's focus on being vigilant, and unified about putting pressure on Sac Rangers to enforce their laws as they said they would. Also, getting DFW to change that nasty Reg allowing SF'g in the clear water rivers.

[Lew Riffle]

Do follow up. Discipline your emotions into dogged persistence. Find out why you could not get a response from law enforcement. Next time be ready by already having talked to law enforcement. Follow these guys and a least get the observation of what they are doing wrong for a citizen report, where they are getting in the river, parking, vehicle description and license number.

[MendoFish]

He acknowledged he knew about the Reg, and said he didn't want to have the conversation, so he then would not answer when asked several times where did he park?


That's probably because he wanted to continue fishing and not deal with any drama while he's trying to enjoy himself, much like you would if someone came up to you harassing you while you were lawfully fishing.


In hindsight, maybe I shoulda let him know my boats a jet, so no propeller... and then buzzed that side of the river section a few times to spook any big striper hens.

While I appreciate you making it known that you aren't trying to physically hurt or kill someone, you are going to violate the law over this?
2009. (a) A person shall not willfully interfere with the
participation of any individual in the lawful activity of shooting,
hunting, fishing, falconry, hunting dog field trials, hunting dog
training, or trapping at the location where that activity is taking
place.
(b) A violation of this section is punishable pursuant to
subdivision (b) of Section 12000. (c) Any person convicted for a violation of this section that
occurred within two years of a prior violation of this section which
resulted in a conviction is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by
imprisonment in the county jail for a period of not more than one
year, by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) and not
to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both imprisonment and
fine.
(d) This section does not apply to the actions of any peace
officer or personnel of the department in the performance of their
official duties. This section does not obstruct the rights and normal
activities of landowners or tenants, including, but not limited to,
farming, ranching, and limiting unlawful trespass.
(e) In order to be liable for a violation of this section, the
person is required to have had the specific intent to interfere with
the participation of an individual who was engaged in lawful
shooting, hunting, fishing, falconry, hunting dog field trials,
hunting dog training, or trapping.
(f) For purposes of this section, "interfere with" means any
action which physically impedes, hinders, or obstructs the lawful
pursuit of any of the above-mentioned activities, including, but not
limited to, all of the following:
(1) Actions taken for the purpose of frightening away animals from
the location where the lawful activity is taking place.
(2) Placing or maintaining signs, gates, locks, or barricades that
prohibit or deny access to lands without authorization from the
landowner or lessee or an authorized designee of the landowner or
lessee.
(3) Placing food on lands not belonging to the person placing the
food for purposes of eliminating the lawful ability to hunt due to
the presence of bait, as defined in this code or regulations adopted
pursuant to this code.

12000. (a) Except as expressly provided otherwise in this code, any
violation of this code, or of any rule, regulation, or order made or
adopted under this code, is a misdemeanor.
(b) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), a person who violates any of
the following statutes or regulations is guilty of an infraction
punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) and
not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or of a misdemeanor:
(1) Section 2009.
(2) Subdivision (a) of Section 6596.
(3) Section 7149.8.
(4) Sections 1.14, 1.17, 1.62, 1.63, and 1.74 of Title 14 of the
California Code of Regulations.
(5) Sections 2.00 to 5.95, inclusive, and 7.00 to 8.00, inclusive,
of Title 14 of the California Code of Regulations.
(6) Sections 27.56 to 30.10, inclusive, of Title 14 of the
California Code of Regulations.
(7) Sections 40 to 43, inclusive, of Title 14 of the California
Code of Regulations.
(8) Section 251.7 of Title 14 of the California Code of
Regulations.
(9) Sections 307, 308, and 311 to 313, inclusive, of Title 14 of
the California Code of Regulations.
(10) Sections 505, 507 to 510, inclusive, and 550 to 553,
inclusive, of Title 14 of the California Code of Regulations.
(11) Section 630 of Title 14 of the California Code of
Regulations.


How bad does this have to get before anyone takes action? Mark, I applaud you for trying to get through to the "Rangers" but maybe it's time for a real vigilante squad of volunteers to" take up arms" so to speak. Those of you who fish the American regularly ought to be first in line and have that phone number as a part of their cell directory. Why not call the "regular" police department as well to report a crime? Maybe they can get through to the ineffective rangers. Maybe the Sacramento be ought to be made aware how ineffective both the rangers and the police are in NOT taking action?
Tony

I wonder if the rangers don't respond well because no laws are being broken? Are you going to actually tie up PD so they can't respond to real emergencies over this? A court case has already been won, confiscated gear returned and no fines issued.



I can assure you guys up this way would have run over or shot folks spearing anything in this area and they would be supported by the local authorities.
Tony
What an absurd thing to say. I can assure you as can any police officer or lawyer that you will not be supported. If you attempt to cause great bodily harm to me or another dive buddy I will respond by defending myself against great bodily harm in accordance with California Penal Code 240/PC242. I wish you no harm and would like it if you left me alone. If you threaten me be prepared for the consequences. Do you really want to risk losing your life over a fish? I sure don't want to end up in court with your next of kin suing me regardless of my walk in criminal court.


Yeah, I'm with Mike O on this one. I don't like the idea if spearfishers in the American, but retaliating with violence seldom leads to good results. In my opinion no fish is worth that level action.

Thank you, glad someone doesn't have the mindset of a lawless criminal.


The SpearF-er clearly knew he broke the county law against bringing the spear to the banks of the river. That's not persuit in a legal manner--period. He clammed up when asked where they parked-- further evidence of consciousness of guilt.

Persuing a fish is different from taking steps to annihilate a population of sportfish in the region. Taking out super breeder hens like shooting them in a barrel in the American effects numbers of generations of stripers in the American and the Sac river, and the Feather, etc. Lets be clear these guys are avid morons, selfish bstards or both.

Mr. Buzolich expressed a natural reaction to this planned illegal activity, much like I did with my language on the water, but I noticed he did not directly call for shooting or running over any of said aholes.

Of course he stopped talking, as did I when I was approached. The conversation is going to lead nowhere positive and I don't need to waste my time conversing with someone with bad intentions when i'm trying to lawfully fish. It IS pursuit in a legal manner(can't speak for everyone there, but there are ways to stay within the law and shore dive) As mentioned before, a court case has already been won and set. As far as annihilation-means of take has NOTHING to do with conservation. Most spearfisherman (or spear F'ers as you so maturely put it) are very conservational. Spearfishing is no "nasty reg" and is done in a multitude of states.



Bottom line- Are you really going to act like low life criminals and harass/assault/batter someone who is lawfully (or even if someone wasn't for that matter) fishing? After my incident with people in your mindset I now carry my phone with me while diving so I CAN call police when someone tries to "run me over" or assault me.

It's going to be pretty entertaining the day you guys end up harassing or assaulting a diver who ends up to be a police officer. It shouldn't be a surprise that some law enforcement dive.

I don't want to deal with harassments or threats to cause me great bodily harm.In fact, I don't want to deal with anything but what I came there for, I just want to fish. You can kick and scream all you want but it sounds like you are just going to have to learn how to share. Much like your mother taught you when you were 2 (or apparently didn't). It amazes me people can get so upset over a means of take they are willing to violate the law or harm someone else.

[Mark V]

MendoFish,

Hope you weren't offended by an abbreviation of spear Fishers--guess you must be one of those Catch N Release spear guys!

Ok, I apologize for the sarcasm. No need for this to turn into a big pissing contest. If you really are conservation minded, can we talk about that?

Do you really think that most spear Fishers are very conservational? What specific steps do conservation-minded spear Fishers take to protect and enhance the populations of stripers in our rivers?

I wouldn't harm or threaten bodily harm to one of the takers, period.
You gave a lot of detail on CA codes about interfering with legal fishing. If you're a conservationist at heart, are you going to say that the guy who knowingly breaks the law that prohibits him from bringing the spear to the park... is legally fishing while he's in the river?

Please provide more detail about the court case you mention. The details of the case will be important to the conservation discussion.

I confess to selfishly enjoying the tug of stripers so much it makes me upset to think about even a few super breeder hens being "taken" in clear water, because I know that means the striper population in my backyard American river (and Sac, Feather, Yuba) will continue it's trend-- and that is, I'm sorry--nasty.
Nutshell that's what conservation means to me.

In plain words, what does it mean to you?
If you're a conservationist, let's turn this into a positive discussion we can all agree on, and start developing a plan to work together to protect and turn around the striper populations in our rivers.

[MendoFish]

MendoFish,

Hope you weren't offended by an abbreviation of spear Fishers--guess you must be one of those Catch N Release spear guys!

Ok, I apologize for the sarcasm. No need for this to turn into a big pissing contest. If you really are conservation minded, can we talk about that?

Do you really think that most spear Fishers are very conservational? What specific steps do conservation-minded spear Fishers take to protect and enhance the populations of stripers in our rivers?


Catch and release- Very funny. I can be selective, if I don't want to "release" a fish, I simply don't shoot it or handle it period. Very similar to H&L guys choosing what they want to keep only I don't have to handle and release dozens of fish I don't want. I can choose to pass 20 schoolies, a hen, or take one single one that I want.

Conservational- Yes. You may be surprised at the amount of time some divers take out of their personal lives to attend various meetings- Watermans Alliance, CSBA, DFG etc. I will confess I haven't been to one in a while due to moving. We have been trying to organize a day we can get everyone together to leave the spears at home and spend the day cleaning up the underwater trash dump that is the AR.


I wouldn't harm or threaten bodily harm to one of the takers, period.
Good. There is no reason to make things violent over a fish, disagreement, or anything else related to this. I wish more people felt that way.


You gave a lot of detail on CA codes about interfering with legal fishing. If you're a conservationist at heart, are you going to say that the guy who knowingly breaks the law that prohibits him from bringing the spear to the park... is legally fishing while he's in the river?


As i'm sure you know, any navigable waterway is not part of the parks system and therefor not illegal to travel through with a weapon.

As for entering the parks system- I can't speak for every person there but how I would enter would not classify what i'm carrying as a weapon. As I said, there are ways to enter without violating that law.

[Tony Buzolich]

How can bringing a spear into the park be considered legal? Why not bring a rifle or shotgun into the park too and shoot some of those deer that are walking around on the lawn at Goethe Park during "legal" deer season? If anyone is going to ignore the rules of the park why not ignore hunting of any kind there as well? I guess you already are.

And as for "being legal", this still doesn't make it "right". Tony

[Sharkbait]

I can fully agree that there are laws being broken on the river, however I think that certain people here clearly do not understand which laws are being broken. I have personally seen laws broken on the river and while I can only speak for myself and my friends I dive with, I can say that 100% of the laws broken that I have witnessed have been broken by line fishermen and not those engaging in spearfishing.

When I am floating downriver, I am always on the lookout for bank fishermen and boats and I always make it a point to move to the other side of the river as far away from them as possible as I do not want to interfere with someone else who is fishing. This is common courtesy. The river is big enough for everyone to use and I don't wish to infringe on anyone else's space which is why I also keep my distance from other people when I am bank fishing. These are not "your" fish or "your" river just as it is not mine. Everyone can enjoy the sport they choose to engage in and everyone can share the water. Not only is that good sportsmanship, but it is the law.

I'm sure that the vast majority of people here are law abiding sportsmen and I've had a few good conversations with line fishermen on the river. I've even pointed a few thankful people towards some large shad schools I've seen while diving. I've personally had problems with only a slight fraction of fishermen, however there are a few bad apples who seem to be ruining it for other people and I've seen quite a few people here on this forum who seem to fit that category. I'm sure that there are bad apples on the spearfishing side as well, but I do not know these people and I cannot be judged for their actions. Over the past few seasons I've seen numerous threats towards divers from fishermen on the river. Things I have personally been witness to are:

-Threatening/intimidating divers with boats or other watercraft (I have personally had some wackjob in a boat do donuts in the river so close to me and my dive buddy that we were within 10ft of the boat's propeller)
-Rock throwing (whether in an attempt to scare fish or hit divers, I do not need to explain the safety concern here as well as the illegal interference in legal fishing activity)
-Fishermen saying they will tie on the "largest trebble hook" or "largest lead sinker" they have and cast at the divers. While I have not yet seen this happen in person, I have seen this threat posted on this forum on at least two occasions. Those threats have since been deleted for obvious reasons.
-Implied shooting of divers ??? I don't think I need to go in to this one. Nuff said.

For anyone who is confused about any laws being broken either on the forums or on the river by line fishermen that has not already been posted, let me clarify.

PENAL CODE
SECTION 422-422.4

422. (a) Any person who willfully threatens to commit a crime which will result in death or great bodily injury to another person, with the specific intent that the statement, made verbally, in writing, or by means of an electronic communication device, is to be taken as a threat, even if there is no intent of actually carrying it out, which, on its face and under the circumstances in which it is made, is so unequivocal, unconditional, immediate, and specific as to convey to the person threatened, a gravity of purpose and an immediate prospect of execution of the threat, and thereby causes that person reasonably to be in sustained fear for his or her own safety or for his or her immediate family's safety, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail not to exceed one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.


Harbors and Navigation Code Section 655 Operation of Vessel

Operation of Vessel

655. (a) No person shall use any vessel or manipulate water skis, an aquaplane, or a similar device in a reckless or negligent manner so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of any person. The department shall adopt regulations for the use of vessels, water skis, aquaplanes, or similar devices in a manner that will minimize the danger to life, limb, or property consistent with reasonable use of the equipment for the purpose for which it was designed.

655.2.
(a) Every owner, operator, or person in command of any vessel propelled by machinery is guilty of an infraction who uses it,
or permits it to be used, at a speed in excess of five miles per hour in any portion of the following areas not otherwise regulated by
local rules and regulations:
(1) Within 100 feet of any person who is engaged in the act of bathing. A person engaged in the sport of water skiing shall not be
considered as engaged in the act of bathing for the purposes of this section.
(2) Within 200 feet of any of the following:
(A) A beach frequented by bathers.
(B) A swimming float, diving platform, or lifeline.
(C) A way or landing float to which boats are made fast or which is being used for the embarkation or discharge of passengers.
(b) This section does not apply to vessels engaged in direct law enforcement activities that are displaying the lights prescribed by Section 652.5. Those vessels are also exempt from any locally imposed speed regulation adopted pursuant to Section 660.


Bottom line is, for a group of people who seem to be up in arms and outraged over laws they are assuming to be broken when there is no evidence of any law being broken, you do not seem to care much about any other law out there and break many laws yourselves in pursuit of imposing your opinion on others. A prime example of this kind of behavior is lane splitting. Lane splitting for motorcyclists is something that is perfectly legal, however there are many people out there who are adamantly opposed to it. That does not give people the right to open their car doors on the road or attempt to run someone off the road simply because of a difference in opinion on what should and shouldn't be legal. Sharing the road is the law. Sharing the water is the law. Out of all the threats I have seen made and all of the laws I have seen broken, so far all of these have been done by line fishermen. I have seen zero threats to fishermen by spearfishermen and I have seen zero laws broken by spearfishermen. I can assure you that me and my friends are well aware of the no weapons in the parkway regulations and that we are very careful as to not break this law. I cannot speak to the actions of others that I do not dive with in regards to this. I participate in the activity legally, I do not break the law, and therefore I do not owe anyone an explanation for my actions and I certainly will not react kindly to those who insist on threatening me or harassing me on the river. I also personally know a park ranger who patrols the American River Parkway and we have had many discussions on the laws and legalities of what we are discussing here. The people I dive with are just as knowledgeable about the laws if not more so than anyone on this forum as it has the possibility to affect us much more directly than any of you. My best advise to you is to be an adult and share the resource. Nobody is going to wipe out the striper population of the river. There are far more large fish that come in from the Sacramento river and the delta than there are resident fish, and they all spawn. Diving the river at different times of the year, I see the populations fluctuate with the runs. This is something you cannot see above the water. What is going on is fear mongering plain and simple by people who simply don't like what other people are doing in an attempt to demonize a sport because they refuse to accept change. You never had to share the water with divers before, and now you do. While I can see your point about not liking that fact, it is something you need to accept and everyone who is on the river needs to treat each other with mutual respect.

What I am surprised at however is the vast amount of fishing line, lures, rods and reels, empty bait packages and garbage, beer cans and other things that I find littering the bottom of the river that line fishermen leave behind and are completely oblivious to being only above the surface of the water. I have cleaned up far more than my fair share of trash from the bottom of that river in the past few years. I enter the water and I exit and I leave nothing behind. While I cannot blame any one individual for this type of thing, it boggles my mind how a group people can claim to care about the fish in the river when they are treating the fish's habitat like it is their own personal trash can. As was stated previously in this thread, spearfishermen are some of the most environmentally conscious people I know and we would like to see our resources protected, which includes the environment where we dive and where fish live. I do not want the stripers depleted anymore than any of you, and it may surprise you to know that spearfishing is actually much harder than line fishing and I come back skunked more times spearfishing than I do when I am line fishing. In the dozen or so times I have been out since the very first season, I have personally seen only 5 fish taken, with 4 of those being under 20 pounds. I've personally taken zero fish home so far. It is most certainly not like shooting fish in a barrel, as someone on this forum has mentioned multiple times but I cannot blame them for their ignorance of the subject. That said, if you do see someone hauling more than their limit out of the river, call caltip and have them reported. I will do the same. Method of take does not matter. Taking more than you are allowed or taking undersized fish is what matters, and we all want poachers busted. None of us want to see anyone abuse the resource and ignore the laws and regulations so that we all may continue enjoying what we love to do whether above water or below.

[Scott V]

Spear fishing on the American is 100% legal. This is what I have been told according to the law, in order for them to use their spear guns, they disassemble them prior to going to the river, once on the water they can reassemble and be perfectly within the law.

The reason the rangers or police will not come out is because they are not doing anything illegal.

And if anyone is going to attack them for taking fish, please raise your hand if you have NEVER taken a fish in your life. If you have never taken a fish, that was your choice, but the LAW states they can take 2 fish!

I have talked spear guys while they were in the water and they were kind to me, but then I wasn't being a total jerk to them and asking stupid questions like "Where is you car parked". I wouldn't answer that question if someone asked me either.

Learn the laws and regulations before you attack someone who is more than likely doing everything PER THE LAW!

[MendoFish]

How can bringing a fishing knife into the park be considered legal? Why not bring a rifle or shotgun into the park too and shoot some of those deer that are walking around on the lawn at Goethe Park during "legal" deer season? If anyone is going to ignore the rules of the park why not ignore hunting of any kind there as well? I guess you already are.

And as for "being legal", this still doesn't make it "right". Tony

Fixed that for you.

In all seriousness- It is fishing equipment. Once there are no bands, or even furthermore no spear, all it is is a lightweight metal tube that posses less harm to anyone than a stick found on the ground.

No one is spearing deer or anything else on PARK GROUNDS. We are passing through. What a gross over exaggeration. And you guys no damn well you are only using that law to try and avoid having us on the river, you are not concerned with the "danger" of a speargun in the park or you would not have gaffs, knives, lures, or any other "dangerous" fishing equipment that could be used as a weapon.

Please tell me what isn't "right" about us passing through with fishing equipment minding our own business? If anything threatening/intimidating us to try and keep us from our legal fishing isn't "right." In fact I believe they have a word for intimidation/threats to persuade someone from doing something for political views. Terrorism is it...?

[MendoFish]

Spear fishing on the American is 100% legal. This is what I have been told according to the law, in order for them to use their spear guns, they disassemble them prior to going to the river, once on the water they can reassemble and be perfectly within the law.

The reason the rangers or police will not come out is because they are not doing anything illegal.

And if anyone is going to attack them for taking fish, please raise your hand if you have NEVER taken a fish in your life. If you have never taken a fish, that was your choice, but the LAW states they can take 2 fish!

I have talked spear guys while they were in the water and they were kind to me, but then I wasn't being a total jerk to them and asking stupid questions like "Where is you car parked". I wouldn't answer that question if someone asked me either.

Learn the laws and regulations before you attack someone who is more than likely doing everything PER THE LAW!

Well put Scott, I see you're here as well as NCKA. I don't get the hostility other than ignorance on the subject. How many less than honorable people come out from the city and blatantly disregard the law and trash that place and kill striper wether intentionally or not. Are you following them, throwing rocks, or interrogating them?

If someone is openly poaching, call CalTip and the rangers. Regardless of the method of take. Stop targeting who you don't like. Period.

[Sharkbait]

Personal message I just received. I am not interested in private chat with you. If you have something to say, include it in the conversation at hand.


Hi Shark,

This is the thread about the Sac County Parks Regulation that bans anyone from bringing a spear to the banks of the American river:
http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthre...rfishing/page2 Basically, the only way to legally get a spear into the lower American would be to bring it by boat from the Sac river (not launching at Discovery, cuz that's park of the Parkway). The guy I saw spearing last Fri admitted he knew about the law he apparently broke, cuz he didn't want me to know where he parked. Do you consider yourself a conservationist spearfisher? What specific steps do you take to help protect and increase the populations of stripers in our rivers? I fish with de-barbed flies so that almost every single fish is (revived if necessary) and released without harm. I would never intentionally kill a big breeder hen. I've gone to meetings too, but how important is that compared to NOT KILLING the big breeder hens, which the vast majority of bigger stripers are.

Instead of pissing in a contest on the forum, why not help turn the discussion to Conservation, and what we can all do to INCREASE the populations of stripers in our rivers?

Best, Mark


Mark,

I wouldn't want you to know where I parked either. I also would not like to be followed. Why? Because that's creepy and I don't like being harassed and I don't want my vehicle broken into. I do not know you and I do not trust you. My actions of not wanting to provide you with information is not suspicious, just as that person you met on the river. Your actions in asking such questions are suspicious however because I'd rather not have you steal my vehicle or the things inside. Nobody in their right mind would tell you where they parked. What's your address Mark? What do you drive? What's your license plate? Where do you work? Yea.... those are questions that shouldn't be asked or answered. I cannot speak to the legality of the actions of the other person that I do not know, nor can you unless you visually witnessed a crime take place.

My post is not a pissing match. It is me being fed up with people who apparently are interested in threatening/harming me while engaging in legal activity. Whether you or anyone thinks that it is "right" or "wrong", that is your opinion and nothing more. You will never get anyone to agree on everything. Keep your opinions away from me at the river, and mind your own business until you visually see a crime or violation of the law take place at which point you may contact the proper authorities. I can guarantee that me and those I dive with will not be violators of the law but just as you I will keep an eye out for those that do.

My post is factual and is based on law and is not argued based on emotions like what I see here from the people on this forum who actively threaten other sportsmen. Unlike you, I have visually witnessed laws being broken. I do not assume or claim that someone "apparently" broke them. Your ignorance of the facts is not proof of guilt for someone else.

The rest is none of your business and I do not owe you an explanation... although I can guarantee that you have killed more stripers in that river than I have. Have a good day.

[Mark Kranhold]

Spear fishing on the American is 100% legal. This is what I have been told according to the law, in order for them to use their spear guns, they disassemble them prior to going to the river, once on the water they can reassemble and be perfectly within the law.

The reason the rangers or police will not come out is because they are not doing anything illegal.
And if anyone is going to attack them for taking fish, please raise your hand if you have NEVER taken a fish in your life. If you have never taken a fish, that was your choice, but the LAW states they can take 2 fish!

I have talked spear guys while they were in the water and they were kind to me, but then I wasn't being a total jerk to them and asking stupid questions like "Where is you car parked". I wouldn't answer that question if someone asked me either.

Learn the laws and regulations before you attack someone who is more than likely doing everything PER THE LAW!
This is exactly right and true! There's always a way around the system.

[Mark V]

MendoFish, you sure were right about spearfishers and conservation-- the spear guys on this thread may be candidates for Conservationist of the year!

Sac County posted a final determination about the Ordinance (9.36.060) against possession of spears on the American River parkway (banks):
http://www.regionalparks.saccounty.net/Documents/Spearfishing%20Impact%20Analysis%20and%20Directors %20Determination%20Final.pdf

This March I called the Parks District at (916) 875-7275, and got a quick call back from a Ranger. She said that IS still their policy, referenced the above June 4, 2013 determination, and said that they will enforce it.

Asked, "If I see a guy spearfishing who apparently violated the law (e.g. no boat to bring him up the river from beyond the Parkway) and he's there slaughtering big stripers, will they enforce on them? She said yes, and said it will be helpful to give them all info, like if you know where they parked. That's why I asked the guy last Fri if he had a spear, knew about the law, and where he parked. All are entitled to their opinion, but I checked with the authorities before about what's legal and what's not.

I urge everyone who's interested in this issue to call the Rangers and express your opinion about how important it is (or not) for Rangers to enforce County Ordinance 9.36.060

So what's the total between you spearos this year and last? Want to weigh in? How many stripers and how big have you taken?

[MendoFish]

MendoFish, you sure were right about spearfishers and conservation-- the spear guys on this thread may be candidates for Conservationist of the year!

Sac County posted a final determination about the Ordinance (9.36.060) against possession of spears on the American River parkway (banks):
http://www.regionalparks.saccounty.net/Documents/Spearfishing%20Impact%20Analysis%20and%20Directors %20Determination%20Final.pdf

This March I called the Parks District at (916) 875-7275, and got a quick call back from a Ranger. She said that IS still their policy, referenced the above June 4, 2013 determination, and said that they will enforce it.

Asked, "If I see a guy spearfishing who apparently violated the law (e.g. no boat to bring him up the river from beyond the Parkway) and he's there slaughtering big stripers, will they enforce on them? She said yes, and said it will be helpful to give them all info, like if you know where they parked. That's why I asked the guy last Fri if he had a spear, knew about the law, and where he parked. All are entitled to their opinion, but I checked with the authorities before about what's legal and what's not.

I urge everyone who's interested in this issue to call the Rangers and express your opinion about how important it is (or not) for Rangers to enforce County Ordinance 9.36.060

So what's the total between you spearos this year and last? Want to weigh in? How many stripers and how big have you taken?

How cute:) keep pushing the way you are and you will have none left out of spite. Not by me, but all the people you are going about the wrong way trying to beat. Even if you can get them to somehow enforce the weapons law(which you can't, it isn't a weapon and has already been determined not to be in certain circumstances) you will drive more people to kayak up and slaughter them. You guys are really ignorant with trying to get something done/stopped.

I'm willing to bet the only reason a speargun was ever brought up to be a weapon was from some crusty old cranky H&L guy that didn't like the spearos, rather than a citizen concerned about safety. Had to find a way to make your agenda it someway right?

Funny I don't see anything mentioned in there about pole spears. Only spearguns. You guys might want to work on your attitudes about sharing. Instead of teaching people to be more mindful and conservative about striper you are pushing them to hate you and not want to learn. Well played.

[MendoFish]

An excellent point I had not even considered playing a factor in the hatred.

Ironically a guide who makes a living selling the resource takes issue with someone who is taking fish legally. Oddly enough not one of the monster SB mounts I see at the various sporting goods stores/boat landings have spear holes in them, they all were taken on hook and line, and so were the hundreds of thousands of SB taken in all of the many Striper Derbies in this state that paid out for biggest fish. Not to mention the millions of sport caught SB taken in this state since the fish were introduced from the east coast. Not that I care about the sport take of a sport fish in a public waterway. Spears have probably taken I guessing 100 SB since it was opened. Even if the number were 10 times that it wouldn't be a drop in the bucket compared to what HnL takes. And don't get me started on the holier than thou catch and release crowd.


I get it that these guys are passionate about their sport, but to start inciting others to harassment, destruction of property and violence will only result in having the same visited upon them. Share that.

[TaylerW]

Never mind...

[winxp_man]

Wow lots of writing in this thread! :D

As for spear guys or line guys if YOU like eating a bigger fish with toxic garbage in its meat feel free to do so. Me personally I think killing the large breeding animals takes away from future fishing. It's the big ones the make lots of thee babies ;)

I have seen spear and line guys take really big stripper hens and not care about what they are doing to future stocks also wanting to catch even bigger if possible!

To each their own I guess.....

[kabah088]

This thread has been quite entertaining.

I can understand how a diver legally transports his "parts" to the river through park land. I have no issues here.

Prime taco size for striper is 18-26" in my book.

I am more concerned about ethnic fisherman who line the bank during salmon season bringing in tail hooked and snagged fish (no I am not referring to flossing) with no regards of regulations. Also the guys who gut steelhead for the roe leaving the rest of the fish at the river to die.

My favorite rig is the one commonly found at the dam. It consists of you mainline to a large treble hook and then a leader from the hook to a bobber. It is illegally fished in a manner that the bobber sits furthest from the fisherman and the treble hook sags down bellow the surface. When a fish swims over the hook, the fisherman snags the fish in the belly.

Mendo - did you create your profile just for this forum topic? Welcome to the forum and I hope you find all of the fly fishing advice you need here!

[tascaso]

Wow lots of writing in this thread! :D

As for spear guys or line guys if YOU like eating a bigger fish with toxic garbage in its meat feel free to do so. Me personally I think killing the large breeding animals takes away from future fishing. It's the big ones the make lots of thee babies ;)

I have seen spear and line guys take really big stripper hens and not care about what they are doing to future stocks also wanting to catch even bigger if possible!

To each their own I guess.....

I am with you win_xpman, the amount of dangerous toxins in the larger and small fish in the Valley Rivers is outrageous, you would have to be insane to eat any of them! Its unhealthy enough just to breath the air much less eat the fish.

[Mark V]

Whoa had to sink in a bit, there's some disturbed thoughts from Mendo. And to think he started posting about being worried about spearfishers being victim to physical violence. Actually surprised the spear guys are shy to weigh in, and brag how many & how big stripers they've taken this year and last. Post some pics? You know you can blur faces with Photoshop to protect ID.

The idea that guy is conservation minded seems a sick joke. I don't hate spear guys, just don't agree that 'means of take' has nothing to do with conservation. Think most spear guys who work the American do so to target the monster breeding hens in clear water, where they're most vulnerable and while they're here to breed. That strikes me as unethical because I believe that's going to decimate future generations of stripers all throughout the rivers and delta.

Everyone seen the movie, "Rivers of a Lost Coast"? It's a movie most fishermen love, though it's at times tough to watch. Many, old and very smart guys who fished back in the 50s, 60s and on, said they had no idea--they couldn't have begun to grasp the concept that they could possibly even dent the massive fishery and monumental populations of salmon, steelhead and stripers in the NCal rivers like the Smith. They almost completely destroyed all of them. Didn't know that history before the movie. So, how can some otherwise intelligent guys be oblivious to the fact they we are capable of destroying the population of stripers? Telling other fishermen they need to understand sharing??

Anyone can fantasize that bringing disassembled spear gear to the riverbank is legal, but repeating or re-posting a falsehood doesn't make it true.

If you talk to the Park Rangers, they will tell you that if you bring a disassembled handgun to the A.R. parkway, they will cite you the same ticket on the County ordinance as with a spearfishing rig, whether a gun or pole.

They will tell you this is their policy, and they are definitely enforcing it:
http://www.regionalparks.saccounty.net/Documents/Spearfishing%20Impact%20Analysis%20and%20Directors %20Determination%20Final.pdf

And I'm definitely NOT holier than thou, in fact not the least bit, in any way holy.

[KdPaz]

Growing up in the Sacramento area, I, Myself haven’t been fly fishing on the American River in years but I must say coming from the younger generation, times and laws are changing and we anglers need to except the changes that are being made to our waters. We all have our own opinions and are entitled to them. But just because you’re entitled to your opinion doesn’t mean you need to voice it by using violence or attacking people. If you’re going to voice your opinion as an adult you should be able to voice it respectfully and in a courteous way. Bad mouthing and talking crap about a certain way of fishing isn’t going to get you anywhere, especially when you’re threatening others. Just because they prefer a different way of fishing than you doesn’t make them anymore or any less of person than you. As long as they are respecting the laws then why should it bother you how they are fishing? “Sharkbait” brings up some very valid points. These waters and fish don’t belong to “YOU”, “THEM”, or “I”. We need to learn to share the waters with each other regardless of their preference of fishing style. Not every person who is spear fishing you come across is going to be breaking the laws. Just because you may have come across someone breaking the law doesn’t give you the right to judge every person who is spear fishing that you come across as one to break the laws. There are bad apples in every sport and there is nothing anyone can do about that. All you can really do, honestly, is make sure you’re one of the ones following the laws.


As for spearfishing, it is legal to spearfish in the American River and even near/on the parkway. As long as they are in the water they are legal. It is only illegal for them to be on shore with their spears on the parkway banks. As for asking where they parked their vehicle that really is no one else’s business but their own. You don’t know, there may be places in the parkway where it is possible to walk into the American River without technically trespassing on county parkway land, from private property with river access, perhaps. Or within a public easement along the State Highway 160 and Interstate 80 bridges, those easements exist in the annals of state law partly to protect public fishing rights.

[MendoFish]

Whoa had to sink in a bit, there's some disturbed thoughts from Mendo. And to think he started posting about being worried about spearfishers being victim to physical violence. Actually surprised the spear guys are shy to weigh in, and brag how many & how big stripers they've taken this year and last. Post some pics? You know you can blur faces with Photoshop to protect ID.

The idea that guy is conservation minded seems a sick joke. I don't hate spear guys, just don't agree that 'means of take' has nothing to do with conservation. Think most spear guys who work the American do so to target the monster breeding hens in clear water, where they're most vulnerable and while they're here to breed. That strikes me as unethical because I believe that's going to decimate future generations of stripers all throughout the rivers and delta.

Everyone seen the movie, "Rivers of a Lost Coast"? It's a movie most fishermen love, though it's at times tough to watch. Many, old and very smart guys who fished back in the 50s, 60s and on, said they had no idea--they couldn't have begun to grasp the concept that they could possibly even dent the massive fishery and monumental populations of salmon, steelhead and stripers in the NCal rivers like the Smith. They almost completely destroyed all of them. Didn't know that history before the movie. So, how can some otherwise intelligent guys be oblivious to the fact they we are capable of destroying the population of stripers? Telling other fishermen they need to understand sharing??

Anyone can fantasize that bringing disassembled spear gear to the riverbank is legal, but repeating or re-posting a falsehood doesn't make it true.

If you talk to the Park Rangers, they will tell you that if you bring a disassembled handgun to the A.R. parkway, they will cite you the same ticket on the County ordinance as with a spearfishing rig, whether a gun or pole.

They will tell you this is their policy, and they are definitely enforcing it:
http://www.regionalparks.saccounty.net/Documents/Spearfishing%20Impact%20Analysis%20and%20Directors %20Determination%20Final.pdf

And I'm definitely NOT holier than thou, in fact not the least bit, in any way holy.

That's hilarious. You sound like a 12 year old pouting. Disturbed thoughts? Only disturbing thing here is your attitude, try to distract from it as you may. No one's shy, you are looking to stir up shit. That is clear. Boo hoo, please try again.

It's funny you seem to think you know me and my fishing habits. Who's bragging on big striper? I've never even shot one. Where did I even say i've shot any lmao? However if I did chose to shoot one, you can be damned sure I wouldn't be scared to show my face with a fish I lawfully took. "A sick joke" is only descriptive of your thought process. You keep twisting my words to fit your agenda and make me look bad, when really you look like the fool here. Here are good people trying to civilly work things out and here you are acting like a childish fool. To be honest if a large hen was so easy to plug, I wouldn't be interested in it anyway. I'd rather hunt smaller challenging schoolies.

But why am I explaining this to you, apparently you know me like the back of your hand and all my fishing habits. LOL

A firearm is not a metal pipe. You are comparing apples to oranges. Again, a case has already been won in the regards of how some spears enter, gear returned and no citation. Maybe they like to make you feel better when you call or are just tired of you. I do not need to explain exactly how people enter, because I know you will be rallying everyone you can and on the phone crying and whining to whoever will listen, but you can be assured it's legal. So, learn to share or go cry in the corner alone :o


Mendo - did you create your profile just for this forum topic? Welcome to the forum and I hope you find all of the fly fishing advice you need here!

Yes, I found this site when someone brought this thread and the issue of being "run over or shot" up. I do however enjoy flyfishing, and have been in Kienes once or twice. All the childish crying and bs aside, I hope I can find some good fly fishing advice here, as it seems like there is a good amount of it




As for spear guys or line guys if YOU like eating a bigger fish with toxic garbage in its meat feel free to do so. Me personally I think killing the large breeding animals takes away from future fishing. It's the big ones the make lots of thee babies ;).


Contrary to what Mark V apparently knows about me, I have no desire to eat a large striper from anywhere. I could literally spit on the delta from my back door. I've had my fill of eating stripers for a lifetime.

[Mark V]

Nah, I didn't whine or cry, nor do I presume to know how you fish (though did ask you about your size & #s). You did write that most spearfisherman are very conservational.

So now you say you don't target the big hens in clear water when they're here to breed and most vulnerable.... why spearfish on the American? Go ahead and tell us how you fish legally and post pics. Lets see what we're talking about. Promote your 'take method'.

Do you not target the big breeder hens because you agree it's unethical to do that, because that's destroying instead of sharing the resource? Because if you do have one conservationist bone in your body, this argument could be over in a second, and convert to a common interest to protect and grow the population of stripers. (Think you might find a majority of ppl who frequent this forum interested in that)


Re: the county ordinance prohibiting possession of spears on the parkway, here's a post on the latest chat with a Sgt Park Ranger: http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?30647-Final-analysis-and-county-parks-policy-determination-on-spearfishing/page2 and if you read the ordinance, you'll realize it's not about firearms. There was nothing whiny about this Ranger, and they are serious about the ordinance and enforcement.

Next time I talk with the Ranger, I'll ask him if he knows of ANY legal way to possess spearfishing gear on the riverbanks, or to transport from land to American water.

So you can cross your fingers and hope that your mystery method of getting your spear gear in the water can avoid or be immune from Ranger enforcement, and I'll cross my fingers that me and those of us on the other side of this issue can help the Rangers enforce the ordinance.

[MendoFish]

Nah, I didn't whine or cry, nor do I presume to know how you fish (though did ask you about your size & #s). You did write that most spearfisherman are very conservational.

So now you say you don't target the big hens in clear water when they're here to breed and most vulnerable.... why spearfish on the American? Go ahead and tell us how you fish legally and post pics. Lets see what we're talking about. Promote your 'take method'.

Do you not target the big breeder hens because you agree it's unethical to do that, because that's destroying instead of sharing the resource? Because if you do have one conservationist bone in your body, this argument could be over in a second, and convert to a common interest to protect and grow the population of stripers. (Think you might find a majority of ppl who frequent this forum interested in that)


Re: the county ordinance prohibiting possession of spears on the parkway, here's a post on the latest chat with a Sgt Park Ranger: http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?30647-Final-analysis-and-county-parks-policy-determination-on-spearfishing/page2 and if you read the ordinance, you'll realize it's not about firearms.

Next time I talk with the Ranger, I'll ask him if he knows of ANY legal way to possess spearfishing gear on the riverbanks, or to transport from land to American water.

So you can cross your fingers and hope that your mystery method of getting your spear gear in the water can avoid or be immune from Ranger enforcement, and I'll cross my fingers that me and those of us on the other side of this issue can help the Rangers enforce the ordinance.

I did write most are. I did not say I am the spokesperson for preservation or conservation. I do what I can when I can to help and take what I feel is fair and not harmful. I don't kill everything in my path, I select what I want.

I did not say I will never shoot a big SB. I was addressing the fact you simply seemed to be assuming that is why I dive there and what I target and will be "annihilating them." If I choose to take one, I will, and I will have every right to do so as would any bank HnL guy. If I choose to stick to a 18-20" schoolie or two, or none, then that's what I will do. The ethics and moralities of it are that of my business, not yours. You can have your opinion, but that is all it is. Your opinion. I may never go back to spear again. But if I do, i'm damn sure not going to tolerate threats or being harassed by someone trying to trample my freedom. I could give two damns if you kept quiet on the river and voiced your opinions and tried to have it made illegal again if you kept it in the right place such as board meetings. It's your ridiculous attitude, misguided anger and harassment here and on the water that I can't stand more than actually being able to spear a damned fish.

You sure want those pics and numbers. Why so anxious I wonder? Couldn't be for ill intent, i'm sure..... So, stripers don't run yearly and breed huh? Do they magically stop at the line where the American meets the Sacramento? You kept making it sound like there are limited numbers in the river that can never be replaced.

Oh I read your cute little post and got a giggle. Silly me, I was under the impression rangers enforced laws not created them. If he does know of a way, please share. We could use some more and his OPINION or IDEA might help. Thanks.

[Mark V]

Never have and never will in any way threaten or harass or trample your freedom. I will help the Rangers enforce the law, to the goal of protecting more stripers. Promise I have no ill intent towards you personally.

Check out this movie, I'd bet $100 every fisherman will find it fascinating: http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title...andard_edition


No, stripers don't stop where the rivers confluence, and they do breed yearly, but several factors like water levels, pesticides, pumps, fishing pressure, agribusiness politics & money are working against the survival of the population. If you watch the movie Rivers of a Lost Coast, you'll learn the history of other NCal rivers, and be enthralled to see how incredible the populations of salmon, steelhead and stripers were in those other rivers before the onslaught. Yes, it is possible the striper population in the American could be mostly wiped out.

This is not a good sign; check out the latest DFG study on Striper populations: http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?35592-Report-on-2015-Striped-Bass-Tagging

[MendoFish]

No, stripers don't stop where the rivers confluence, and they do breed yearly, but several factors like water levels, pesticides, pumps, fishing pressure, agribusiness politics & money are working against the survival of the population. If you watch the movie Rivers of a Lost Coast, you'll learn the history of other NCal rivers, and be enthralled to see how incredible the populations of salmon, steelhead and stripers were in those other rivers before the devastation. Yes, it is possible the striper population in the American could be mostly wiped out.

Kind of sounds like you should be fighting water levels, pesticides, and pumps.


I will check out the movie. In return here is the picture you wanted. 10868

[Mark V]

ROFL! That picture is absolutely brilliant. Really good time for a laugh too. Hope there's no hard feelings.

Yes, and I hope you'll fight the water levels, pesticides and pumps too.

[Rossflyguy]

Striper are invasive. They are everywhere. Some stay in the rivers and some go back out to the ocean. If their numbers dropped a little in sure it wouldn't hurt the native salmon and steelhead. Let it go.

[winxp_man]

Striper are invasive. They are everywhere. Some stay in the rivers and some go back out to the ocean. If their numbers dropped a little in sure it wouldn't hurt the native salmon and steelhead. Let it go.

Striped bass was introduced in CA in 1879. The numbers of salmon and steelhead in CA in the 40's was still massive. Till dams where put in salmon and steelhead numbers where great. spawning grounds for salmon and steelhead have been taken away its what is killing them off.

[Rossflyguy]

Regardless, they're still invasive and have a very healthy population. Harvesting stripers won't hurt the Eco system.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

We need more good spawning habit for wild salmon and steelhead by removing more dams.

[Rossflyguy]

We need more good spawning habit for wild salmon and steelhead by removing more dams.


Definitely agree but I'm not going to get mad because people are harvesting Striper. They're like pigeons. They're everywhere and you can catch them on anything.

[Terry Thomas]

Pretty interesting thread. For the most part, it has been civil with the facts presented. Please remember that personal attacts are not allowed. Suggesting that people should break the law and take matters into their own hands is not wise. I hope everyone has thrown their two cents into the hat and we can move on.

[winxp_man]

Definitely agree but I'm not going to get mad because people are harvesting Striper. They're like pigeons. They're everywhere and you can catch them on anything.

I'm willing to bet there were far more bigger stripers and more in numbers back in the day. I would ask this question because you consider them like pigeons lets eradicat them? It's funny that (like I posted on how long they have been in CA) they get along with salmon and steelhead just fine, and numbers of salmon and steelhead did not decline because of striper. Like I stated salmon and steelhead need more water ways to breed. Also history and facts show that since rivers have been shortened and breeding grounds for salmon and steelhead have been taken away it's what really effected numbers (besides overfishing). Also agree with Bill on dams but that's a different subject.

[Mark V]

Stripers are invasive? Please don't be racist or politically incorrect. You could say the same thing about Chinese ppl living in CA, only I think Chinese ppl were first brought here many years after stripers.

Wonder if you have 100% of your retirement funds invested in CA agribiz stocks, because that worn-out INVASIVE label is being used by the farm industry to try to annihilate game fish. If they could they'd completely crush all sportfishing and proceed to take all the rest of the water without any resistance. Invasive is the new N-word.

As for "stripers are everywhere", Rossfly I suspect you haven't been fishing the American river much the last few years? Talk to ppl over 50 who grew up fishing the American, this river used to be taming thick with wildlife. Salmon, steelies, trout, stripers, shad, pike, suckers, largemouth, smallmouth, bluegill, crappie, lampreys, crayfish for starters that I remember being told of. And the number of stripers? Holy sh**, now some days on the water looks like a scene from "I am Legend". Anyone who grew up fishing the American want to chime in?

Ross, you sound a little like the fishermen in Rivers of a Lost Coast, after the decimation they said We didn't know.. We didn't think.. We never thought..

That's fine, I'll respect your opinion. Those of us with the opposite opinion will help the Rangers enforce the county ordinance that was enacted to protect the wildlife resources of the Parkway, namely the anadromous and resident fishes.

[JasonB]

With all due respect, as I do think there have been some very solid points out there pretty much all the way around the table, this thread has gone just a wee bit off the deep end. Threats and talk of racism kind of defeat any sound logic that might prevail. As for native salmon and steelhead runs (in the American and elsewhere), I don't think it's really accurate or fair to attempt to lump SB in the same category. No doubt that they are a great game fish, but let's keep things in perspective: they are still not a native fish here, and they do compete/prey on fish runs that are native and also threatened.

Obviously the whole scenario is a complex one, with lots of strong, and emotional interests at stake. I don't think that we're getting anywhere good at this point though. FWIW, in case anyone might be inclined to misread my statements here: I do not in any way agree with or condone spear fishing in the American (or any other fresh water streams in California for that matter). Not that it matters much one way or another. Regardless of how I feel, I don't see that getting people on all sides of the issue that much more worked up does anyone any good.

JB

[Rossflyguy]

Stripers are invasive? Please don't be racist or politically incorrect. You could say the same thing about Chinese ppl living in CA, only I think the Chinese were first brought here many years after stripers.

Wonder if you have 100% of your retirement funds invested in CA agribiz stocks, because that worn-out INVASIVE label is being used by the farm industry to try to annihilate game fish. If they could they'd completely crush all sportfishing and proceed to take all the rest of the water without any resistance. Invasive is the new nigger.

As for "stripers are everywhere", Rossfly I suspect you haven't been fishing the American river much the last few years? Talk to ppl over 50 who grew up fishing the American, this river used to be taming thick with wildlife. Salmon, steelies, trout, stripers, shad, pike, suckers, largemouth, smallmouth, bluegill, crappie, lampreys, crayfish for starters that I remember being told of. And the number of stripers? Holy sh**, now some days on the water looks like a scene from "I am Legend". Anyone who grew up fishing the American want to chime in?

Ross, you sound a little like the fishermen in Rivers of a Lost Coast, after the decimation they said We didn't know We didn't think We never thought.

That's fine, I'll respect your opinion. Those of us with the opposite opinion will help the Rangers enforce the county ordinance that was enacted to protect the wildlife resources of the Parkway, namely the anadromous and resident fishes.



Sorry but I can't take you serious when you consider me saying stripers invasive as politically incorrect and racist. Asian people and fish are completely different. Let's come back down to reality here.

[Mark V]

Sorry guys, Making my points in a direct and PI way but NOT trying to get ppl worked up.

Consider your statement above modified with Chinese ppl living in CA substituted for "invasive SB" and native Californians substituted for "native salmon and steelhead". Something like..

'As for native Californian ppl, I don't think it's really accurate or fair to attempt to lump Chinese ppl living here in the same category. No doubt that the Chinese are great people, but let's keep things in perspective: they are still not native to CA, and they do compete for water and jobs with the native Californians who also are threatened.'

Of course it would be absurd to say that 3rd gen Chinese Americans living in CA have any less value or rights than 5th generation Californians, and I think it's equally absurd to say CA stripers are less valuable than salmon. My point is the invasive label is ridiculous, and an analogy between native/immigrant fish/ppl isn't.

Calling stripers Invasive was invented by farmers to make the sportfish the scapegoat, and pretend declining populations of salmon & steelhead were not caused by farmers' overuse of water.

Would you agree the Agribiz lobby is using the "I" word much like the derogatory use of the N word for black ppl, to defame a political opponent (sportfishers) in the war for water? Are you concerned that if they could they'd completely crush all sportfishing and proceed to take all the rest of the water without any resistance? Or do you think they care about protecting native salmon and steelhead?


Ok, and the Vigilante comment was something like post #2.. thought in the following posts it was hashed out and think it's agreed on both sides nobody's intending violence or law breaking. I think we can quit warning against threatening, the threat of threatening has passed, and we don't need the spear guys acting like they are victims in this situation.


To those who fish the American river now, what's your assessment of the current state of populations of wildlife in the water, resident and sea-going, compared to 30-40 years ago? And AR stripers in specific?

I'm glad we have the county ordinance against possession of spear gear on the AR Parkway, and Rangers who are dedicated to enforce it.

[Rossflyguy]

Sorry guys, Making my points in a direct and PI way but NOT trying to get ppl worked up.

Consider your statement above modified with Chinese ppl living in CA substituted for "invasive SB" and native Californians substituted for "native salmon and steelhead". Something like..

'As for native Californian ppl, I don't think it's really accurate or fair to attempt to lump Chinese ppl living here in the same category. No doubt that the Chinese are great people, but let's keep things in perspective: they are still not native to CA, and they do compete for water and jobs with the native Californians who also are threatened.'

Of course it would be absurd to say that 3rd gen Chinese Americans living in CA have any less value or rights than 5th generation Californians, and I think it's equally absurd to say CA stripers are less valuable than salmon. My point is the invasive label is ridiculous, and an analogy between native/immigrant fish/ppl isn't.

Calling stripers Invasive was invented by farmers to make the sportfish the scapegoat, and pretend declining populations of salmon & steelhead were not caused by farmers' overuse of water.

Would you agree the Agribiz lobby is using the "I" word much like the derogatory use of the N word for black ppl, to defame a political opponent (sportfishers) in the war for water? Are you concerned that if they could they'd completely crush all sportfishing and proceed to take all the rest of the water without any resistance? Or do you think they care about protecting native salmon and steelhead?


Ok, and the Vigilante comment was something like post #2.. thought in the following posts it was hashed out and think it's agreed on both sides nobody's intending violence or law breaking. I think we can quit warning against threatening, the threat of threatening has passed, and we don't need the spear guys acting like they are victims in this situation.


To those who fish the American river now, what's your assessment of the current state of populations of wildlife in the water, resident and sea-going, compared to 30-40 years ago? And AR stripers in specific?

I'm glad we have the county ordinance against possession of spear gear on the AR Parkway, and Rangers who are dedicated to enforce it.


Definition of invasive is non native species spreading s d going damage to native species. When a non native starts to impact a native species in a negative way it's, food source or population, it's not good for the Eco system. Using a different race of human isn't a good example. Striper eat all native species. Bottom line is that they're invasive and there's not changing that. I'm sure dam removal would definitely help but Striper eating fingerlings doesn't help salmon and steelhead populations. Theres no arguing that. FYI invasive species wasn't made up by farmers. It's in the dictionary.

[Tony Buzolich]

In response to Rossfly guy, I say SQUAWFISH (aka. Sacramento Pike mInnow) a native species eat MORE smolt than striped bass. Just in their sheer numbers they out score striped bass.

As to this "Invasive " stuff, how long does something have to be here to be considered native. Other than American Indians we're ALL invasive species. How many of your generations have lived here and called themselves Californians? Striped bass have probably been here longer than you family. My family came here during the gold rush from Yugoslavia. Am I a native or an invasive species? :) Tony

[Rossflyguy]

In response to Rossfly guy, I say SQUAWFISH (aka. Sacramento Pike mInnow) a native species eat MORE smolt than striped bass. Just in their sheer numbers they out score striped bass.

As to this "Invasive " stuff, how long does something have to be here to be considered native. Other than American Indians we're ALL invasive species. How many of your generations have lived here and called themselves Californians? Striped bass have probably been here longer than you family. My family came here during the gold rush from Yugoslavia. Am I a native or an invasive species? :) Tony


Squawfish are native. Add Striper to the mix and now we have triple the amount of fingerlings taken and I highly doubt that squawfish eat more than Striper do.

If you wanna use native Americans and settlers who've travelled from other countries ok. Look at how it was before settlers came to North America and how it is now. Your own example proves my point. Sorry but all of the factors you guys bring up don't work for stripers not doing any harm to the Eco system. No matter what you say. Sure we can bring down dams. That'll also make for more spawning ground and food supply for the Striper. Sorry but if rather see steelhead and salmon be the main focus.

Striper are fun but if I wanna harvest these fish there is no harm in it.

[Mark V]

So Rossfly, what's your history of fishing the A.R. and what are your observations over the decades about the populations of wildlife in the water? How about the Russian river, the Eel river, the Smith river, the San Lorenzo river, Feather and Yuba rivers? Have you seen the movie "Rivers of a Lost Coast"? Because in it there's plenty of photo, video and witness interview evidence that stripers were an integral part of the most successful runs of salmon and steelhead in the world.

By any chance do you have ties to the farming industry? Have a friend or family who grows rice? You're ignoring the point about farmers' obvious motivation to defame striped bass, and their propaganda war in the legislatures. http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?35643-Striped-Bass-Target-of-Denham-Amendment-posted-by-Dan-Blanton-2015-06-09-11-14-00

It's no secret the claim that stripers are a harm to the ecosystem came from farmers and why. I believe that claim is obviously false, you haven't provided evidence to support it. It doesn't become more true from repetition. (stripers are everywhere, it's ok to harvest them?) You seem to ask this side of the debate for proof, which may be false logic because it's impossible to prove a negative.

No one calls stripers in the eastern rivers and deltas the I-word because they're "native". I'm pretty sure stripers participate in the ecosystem in the east by interacting with very similar other species like (by eating salmon smolt and many types of baitfish) the same way they do here. Would you agree that stripers co-existed in beneficial harmony with salmon and steelhead for more than 120 years after they were introduced in the west?

Also I'd argue it's understood that species move and spread around continents all the time since the beginning of time, and often the move is caused by other species. That's how stripers got out west, because of humans and I don't think science-like descriptions of native or invasive come with any inherent million year time minimum.

[JasonB]

Mark,
I'll freely admit to being a newcomer here, with far more to learn about the intricacies of our fisheries. I've heard plenty of arguments, some with merit, in support of stripers; but I think saying that the salmon and steelhead runs benefited from striped bass being introduced is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps you should put some evidence up to support that, educate those of us who find that claim a bit far fetched. Saying they co-existed is kind of obvious and redundant, in the absence of additional stresses and pressures; unfortunately those days are long gone.

As for species moving around the globe, that in no way shape or form means that those movements are always beneficial. Again, I think the basic issues that you brought up in your first post have been lost in the fray that has ensued. I agree with a lot of what you were attempting to address, however I don't think that some of the statements in your last few posts do anything at all to support your original concerns. Equating the current threats to striped bass to past destruction of native salmon and steelhead populations just doesn't agree for some of us. Sorry, but I do not think they are the same.
JB

[Mark V]

Ok JB,
I'm not a professional fish biologist either. My words were, 'stripers.. co-existed in beneficial harmony with.. were an integral part of the most successful runs of salmon and steelhead in the world.'

So you could drop the word beneficial, but I think being an integral part of what might have been around 1940 the biggest runs of S&S in the world is evidence they did benefit from stripers in the mix. Are stripers harmful to salmon and steelies in the East? Or do they help by keeping other predators of smolt in check? My point about species movement was only that it's normal and natural, and not necessarily harmful.

A few years ago in the first volley of the war on Stripers, Farm interests came up with the claim of blame on the sportfish, they hired at least one so-called expert to make the claim stripers are harmful to salmon and steelhead. But the actual fish biologists in all the studies said no, declining pops of S&S were mainly due to over exporting of water from the delta.

Believe I heard recently in the news that 90% of all produce consumed in the US is grown in CA. Does that seem wise, given the climate we have? Think we might wanna dial that back a bit? Incentivize crops that need less water?

Yet some ppl and politicians want to grow more rice and lettuce in the desert and chaparal environments of CA. That is a policy/plan that's unsustainable and is sure to be devastating to ALL anadromous fish, native and naturalized.

I'm not equating the current threat to striped bass with past destruction of salmon and steelhead. I'm pointing out that all three, Stripers, Salmon and Steelhead are equally threatened (as is ALL the other water wildlife) by our collective refusal to manage the amount of water we use each year vs. how much we get.

It's all three--S&S&S--not salmon and steelhead and the bastard invasive SB. S&S&S plus all the other species of water wildlife were mostly annihilated in the now famous NCal rivers. Problem is, what happened there isn't famous.

Do you think the Ag lobby cares about salmon and steelhead? I think they don't, only want to avoid blame by putting it on stripers.

If the Eastern states misused and over-depleted their water resources from the rivers, do you think the populations of S&S&S would all decline? Would those responsible for the overdepletion of water blame the stripers?

[Alosa]

So Rossfly, what's your history of fishing the A.R. and what are your observations over the decades about the populations of wildlife in the water? How about the Russian river, the Eel river, the Smith river, the San Lorenzo river, Feather and Yuba rivers? Have you seen the movie "Rivers of a Lost Coast"? Because in it there's plenty of photo, video and witness interview evidence that stripers were an integral part of the most successful runs of salmon and steelhead in the world.

By any chance do you have ties to the farming industry? Have a friend or family who grows rice? You're ignoring the point about farmers' obvious motivation to defame striped bass, and their propaganda war in the legislatures. http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?35643-Striped-Bass-Target-of-Denham-Amendment-posted-by-Dan-Blanton-2015-06-09-11-14-00

There's no secret the claim that stripers are a harm to the ecosystem came from farmers and why. I believe that claim is obviously false, you haven't provided evidence to support it. It doesn't become more true from repetition. (stripers are everywhere, it's ok to harvest them?) You seem to ask this side of the debate for proof, which may be false logic because it's impossible to prove a negative.

No one calls stripers in the eastern rivers and deltas the I-word because they're "native". I'm pretty sure stripers participate in the ecosystem in the east by interacting with very similar other species like (by eating salmon smolt and many types of baitfish) the same way they do here. Would you agree that stripers co-existed in beneficial harmony with salmon and steelhead for more than 120 years after they were introduced in the west?

Also I'd argue it's understood that species move and spread around continents all the time since the beginning of time, and often the move is caused by other species. That's how stripers got out west, because of humans and I don't think science-like descriptions of native or invasive come with any inherent million year time minimum.

You REALLY need to stop talking out your ass....

[Randy Lee]

O.K. Good talk! How about those Warriors? Clearly the thread has degenerated. Any uplifting news on stripers out there?
I love all you all.
Randy

[Alosa]

You REALLY need to stop talking out your ass....

I want to apologize to the board for my initial reaction the other day to Mark V's post. My response itself (listed above) was 'knee-jerk' and unprofessional. While I still strongly believe his post has some factual inaccuracies that are misleading and irresponsible, that's not an excuse for addressing his statements in such a manner. Let me also add that I'm not a fan of internet anonymity, so in the interest of transparency and full disclosure here's me: http://research.pbsci.ucsc.edu/eeb/hasselman/


Disclaimer: I am NOT an expert on striped bass in any way. I don't claim to know about the 'propaganda war on stripers', or the role of the farming industry in this 'war'. That aside, here are my specific criticisms of Mark V's statements:


Have you seen the movie "Rivers of a Lost Coast"? Because in it there's plenty of photo, video and witness interview evidence that stripers were an integral part of the most successful runs of salmon and steelhead in the world.

Clearly, this is nonsense. The statement implies that striped bass contributed to the success of historical spawning runs of salmon and steelhead in California. Where's the data to support this statement? There isn't anything beyond anecdotal observations made available from a movie that striped bass just happen to be around when more abundant salmon and steelhead runs were available to be caught. It doesn't mean that they helped (or hindered) salmon and steelhead. By this logic, shouldn't striped bass aid recovery of depleted salmon runs in the Columbia River? Why not introduce them to Bristol Bay in the hopes of supplementing sockeye salmon runs and increasing productivity? On the face of it this statement is easily refuted, if not by logic, then certainly by common sense.


No one calls stripers in the eastern rivers and deltas the I-word because they're "native".

What? They most certainly are NOT a native species, but they may have become 'naturalized. By the way, that's a HUGE difference. They were introduced to Martinez in the late 1800s from the Atlantic coast of North America.


I'm pretty sure stripers participate in the ecosystem in the east by interacting with very similar other species like (by eating salmon smolt and many types of baitfish) the same way they do here.

I'm assuming by 'east' you are referring to rivers along the Atlantic coast. That's a nice theory - I'd like to see you actually test it. Non-native species (like striped bass) introduced to new environments are subjected to selective pressures that they may not experience in their native range. They can experience ecological release from the restrictions and constraints they face in their native range, and can be released or exposed to new parasites and predators in their introduced range. Given the myriad of ecological and evolutionary responses that non-native species can express, understanding the 'role' of striped bass in California is an incredibly difficult question to address. They MAY fill a similar ecological niche in their introduced range as their native range, but you don't KNOW that. You're guessing.



Would you agree that stripers co-existed in beneficial harmony with salmon and steelhead for more than 120 years after they were introduced in the west?

I wouldn't agree that the ecological relationship between striped bass and salmon/steelhead has been mutually beneficial since the striped bass were introduced. However, I also don't have the data to say that either species has benefited from the other. I don't think anyone is in a position to say one way or the other. This statement nearly makes the claim that striped bass have caused no harm when there's no supporting evidence of that.


Also I'd argue it's understood that species move and spread around continents all the time since the beginning of time, and often the move is caused by other species. That's how stripers got out west, because of humans and I don't think science-like descriptions of native or invasive come with any inherent million year time minimum.

This is the most infuriating statement of all (at least to me). You're implying that species don't have range limits, when that's factually inaccurate. If that's true then why weren't buffalo found entirely across North America prior to humans nearly driving them to extinction? Species ARE inherently limited in their distributions due to a whole suite of factors including physiological tolerance. Some species have broad geographic ranges, others are more restricted in their distributions. This is basic ecology. You are correct that some species are moved around by others, whether its the distribution of seeds in animal feces from one region to another, or humans introducing species to new regions. But to equate the term 'invasive' with species that naturally colonized habitats a million years ago with what we see today as a consequence of human activities is utterly ridiculous. You also have to realize that the term 'invasive' has increasingly more to do with the specific ecological and economic impacts of a 'non-native' species in a novel environment, as opposed to the species itself. For example, American shad are a non-native species present along the Pacific coast of North America, but whether or not they are 'invasive' has yet to be demonstrated. Their introduction could very well turn out to be benign, but we don't know.



I get very irritated when members of the general public who don't have professional level training in evolutionary ecology make statements on public forums about the impacts of non-native species on ecosystem health and functionality. Unless you are familiar with the most recent advances in our understanding of non-native species ecology and evolution from research published in peer-reviewed journals, PLEASE refrain from making general statements as though they were fact. Many of your 'musings' are misleading, they shape the perspectives of those who aren't trained to evaluate scientific information critically, and they can do real harm. That's why people like me are here - to put the brakes on and add a level of reality to public perception...but it's exhausting.

[winxp_man]

Alosa I would ask this of you so striper then cause an issue to the steelhead and salmon numbers? As you said in your post its facts that count. Please post info if you have any on hand. And thanks ahead :)

In all my years of fishing I have seen salmon and steelhead numbers climb and fall... And in all this all the nut cases running our gubermint tend to blame oh it's the sport fishermen, or the stripers or some other garbage that makes no sense! To me as I see it in facts that are not opinions. #1 damns have taken away major spawning grounds for these fish. #2 CA sea lions! No need to make futher comments about these.... #3 Commercial fishermen and Native American... #4 Farmers wanting more and more water to water freaking desert lands instead of growing what is needed here in Sac valley.... instead rice is grown here.

So with all these listed I will say stripers should be the least of our concern in the line of issues. I remember before the big fish kill here in the valley the salmon numbers where quite big! The other problem since on the subject is the AR is only 23 miles long how much steelhead and salmon could possibly live in the system? Again goes back to spawning grounds that where taken away and where I don't think stripers would have swam up to get to these fish.

Why is it that the Great Lakes with all them carnivorous fish in there is able to maintain a number of salmon and steelhead not native to those parts?

[Darian]

Jeez!!! Lighten up Alosa. You're trying to impose your knowledge on the general public "....to put the brakes on discussion...." by lecturing us??? Very effective tactic if this thread is any indication. MarkV's statements might not meet your stringent standards but he's still a human being and deserving of respect just as you are.

[Alosa]

Jeez!!! Lighten up Alosa. You're trying to impose your knowledge on the general public "....to put the brakes on discussion...." by lecturing us??? Very effective tactic if this thread is any indication. MarkV's statements might not meet your stringent standards but he's still a human being and deserving of respect just as you are.

These issues are too important to 'lighten up' over. If they weren't important they wouldn't be the subject of such controversy. If you want misinformation to guide your perspective on fisheries management issues that's your business. I'd rather have facts based on scientific research that has been subjected to peer-review.

BTW...you misquoted me. I never said put the brakes on 'discussion'. If you're going to quote someone, you should probably learn to do it accurately. I was trying to convey the need to inject a dose of reality into these types of discussions before they spin out of control.

Aron - I try not to speak about things that I'm not familiar with, so I really can't speculate about the causes of salmon declines and the roles of the various factors you mention. It's probably not any one of those factors alone, but of their impacts collectively and in various proportions.

Can this thread die now?

[Darian]

Hmmm,.... Misquoted??? I'll admit to taking a portion of what you stated out of context and make the observation that you're being overly nit picky in defining what you said. Your comments in the last paragraph appear to be directed at the general public not at Mark. Following are quotes taken from the paragraph containing statements in that post (copied):

"I get very irritated when members of the general public who don't have professional level training...."

"....to put the brakes on and add a level of reality to public perception."

Since the entire paragraph was directed at members of the general public, it's fairly easy to interpret that part of your statement to mean that you're not tolerant of statements made by non-scientific types as indicated by the above quote on how you are irritated copied from the first sentence in the paragraph. The second quote appears to say that you want to discourage discussion by non-scientific trained persons.

Most of us realize that these issues are important but what makes you think I or anyone else on this BB agree with the entirety of what Mark posted or that we choose to be uninformed?? Do you suppose that none of us are capable of evaluating what's said on our own??? Maybe we just decided that it wasn't worth reacting to it in the manner that you have....

I respect your scientific knowledge/position/training and give you major points for making apologies in the earlier post but, IMO that's where it should've ended. Again, lighten up. You're not the only concerned citizen in the room....

[Mark Kranhold]

Anyone need a cold one? The shows almost over!

[Alosa]

Hmmm,.... Misquoted??? I'll admit to taking a portion of what you stated out of context and make the observation that you're being overly nit picky in defining what you said. Your comments in the last paragraph appear to be directed at the general public not at Mark. Following are quotes taken from the paragraph containing statements in that post (copied):

"I get very irritated when members of the general public who don't have professional level training...."

"....to put the brakes on and add a level of reality to public perception."

Since the entire paragraph was directed at members of the general public, it's fairly easy to interpret that part of your statement to mean that you're not tolerant of statements made by non-scientific types as indicated by the above quote on how you are irritated copied from the first sentence in the paragraph. The second quote appears to say that you want to discourage discussion by non-scientific trained persons.

Most of us realize that these issues are important but what makes you think I or anyone else on this BB agree with the entirety of what Mark posted or that we choose to be uninformed?? Do you suppose that none of us are capable of evaluating what's said on our own??? Maybe we just decided that it wasn't worth reacting to it in the manner that you have....

I respect your scientific knowledge/position/training and give you major points for making apologies in the earlier post but, IMO that's where it should've ended. Again, lighten up. You're not the only concerned citizen in the room....

Darian, let's just agree to disagree. I have other (much more important things) that require my attention.

[Darian]

No msg....

[Mark V]

Thanks for your contribution here Alosa (Dan),

The best response to free speech you don't agree with is more speech. Knew it would be good to have input from a real fish biology scientist and I see from your impressive website you are very conservation oriented. Hopefully we'll learn about conservation from your input and you can keep a pulse on the political issues of the war on stripers on forums like these.

I admit only learned about the apex populations of salmon & steelhead in NCal 1930 from the anecdotal movie Rivers of a Lost Coast a few years ago. My brother-in-law grew up in NY and fished stripers all over the Atlantic coast; I heard from word of mouth years ago that stripers were brought to CA around 150? years ago? So I ass-u-me 'd they were brought to CA from the US Atlantic coast, and that back east they are (million years) native, and also guess I assumed the rivers of the east coast is where those native stripers breed alongside of salmon steelies, and other fish like shad? Studied engineering in college so that's my fish biology education compared to your Bachelors, Masters and Phd. : )

Where are striped bass native to? When were they brought to the Atlantic coast? Are shad in CA rivers non-native? Shad on the Atlantic coast? If so, where is their native breeding waters and when were they introduced? Admit I'm very confused about this. I also assumed that salmon and steelhead are native in their respective coastal rivers of the Pacific and Atlantic US. What other non-native fish are about?

Couple of your objections were about things you say I implied, but I honestly didn't intend to; so it could be validly inferred from my points, but I don't quite get why it got you so irritated. I apologize.

Re: the War on Stripers, I think it's real and apparently there've been books written about it.
http://www.amazon.com/Cadillac-Desert-American-Disappearing-Revised/dp/0140178244

I gather you are of the disposition that the relocation of fish by humans (like stripers brought to CA) was a really bad idea for many reasons, and the relocated, growing populations of then non-native fish are usually if not always harmful to natives.

I also gather that stripers in CA may not be considered native by scientists unless/until they have still survived a million years from now. (not 500 yrs or 1,000)? That's fine and that may be a very educated view. I just hope you're aware of the political war, because reliable and esteemed scientists of that view may get used by the Ag industry in their high $ war, and be an unwitting enabler of genocide of native fish as well as non-native.

[lee s.]

Interesting thread indeed,
Went a long way from the guy shooting fish with a gun.
There seem to be two methods of gaining info to form decisions here. The scientist who needs to read it from a peer approved book and one who listens to popular hearsay. Neither seems very prudent nor intellectual. When hot water kills fish, the man fishing does not need peer revues or books to tell him what killed them nor how to fix it. When a dam goes up and the fish stop coming, the man fishing does not need peer revues or books to tell him why they no longer inhabit the environment as prolifically nor how to fix it. I am not sure that one needs to have professional level training to realize some things that happen in front of them.
I sure ain't trained but I have read that a body of water will produce or sustain only a certain # of #'s of fish. Sounds soooo logical to me. Can we then say that the ecosystem we speak of is as such? And here is where the hearsay conclusion falls apart....the less stripers = more salmonoids. The system will sustain so many #'s of salmon, so many #'s of stripers, and so many #'s of squawfish. Because we have diminished the spawning habitat REQUIRED of our salmonoids, we will not produce any more of them. Oh yeah, they eat all kinds of smaller fish too. However, striper spawn habitat is less drastically diminished (maybe?) and they do eat ALL small fish.....salmon, stripers, AND squawfish. Squawfish seem the most able to survive the invasive species....man, and his poisons, and they also eat ALL small fish. Get rid of the stripers and you will only have more squawfish and NO more salmonoids.
We DO NOT detrimentally impact our anadromas fisheries with a stick and a string nor with a spear. We are killing them with poison water and habitat degradation. It is NOT economically prudent nor are we willing to do the necessary to restore our water to CLEAR, CLEAN, and COLD. All the rocks and sticks we add to the water and all the bitch'in we do to each other about how WE kill them by the "onesie", sure ain't doing the fish no good. If you wanna see where that form of "restoration" will get you, come see the Russian River. In the 60's it was not unusual to hook 25-50 shad a day in the best part of the run and 2-5 steelhead was not unusual during the best parts of a season. Of course, skunks were available too. Now skunks abound. 3-5 shad is a GOOD day and steel comes in filings, not chunks.
OK. Point being.....if you REALLY want to save your fisheries in your cup of water, this ain't gonna do it. Ya goota fix the water, not the take.
.....lee s.
PS.....How do you spell "anadromous"?

[Mark V]

Hi Lee,
Hope you're not one of those guys a with chip on your shoulder about college degrees, cause I think we need a few of those Phd fish scientists, and particularly the conservation minded ones to participate in the debate.

Have you seen Rivers of a Lost Coast? Do you consider that popular hearsay?

I thought the fishermen interviewed in it were telling of their direct observations and participation in excessive fish taking, and what they observed on the water was that the ramped up level of taking was the biggest factor in the near annihilation of wildlife in those rivers. (Other factors included later flooding, then dams, erosion from over-harvesting lumber around the rivers)

Think they might disagree with you and say that if they had 'fixed the take', that is, if they'd ramped back down the excessive level of take, it would have saved much of those massive populations of salmon, steelhead and stripers.

I wish a couple of the best local FF striper guides would comment on their direct observations fishing (while doing zero or almost zero taking) on the American over the last 15 years. My guess they won't post in THIS thread cuz unfortunately the tone degenerated and they don't want to get embroiled in the controversy, and PC police are everywhere.

Apparently we agree on need to fix the water, that's why the turn of thread to the topic of the war on stripers.

Are you saying you think it was a good idea or even an ok idea to ramp up the level of 'take' on stripers by allowing ppl to spear the big breeder hens in clear water where they're the most vulnerable and they're here to breed? If so, do you think it would be good to change the Regs and allow the spear guys to kill the breeding salmon and steelies, why not year round, all up the river?

Are you saying that until we can win the war and fix the water, we shouldn't fix the take?

One guide I talked to today said he and his clients haven't caught a 10+ lb striper in 2 years. I think that's partly the result of excessive fishing pressure--not necessarily spear guys. 3 summers ago this top guide had a 24#, 14# and 6 stripers close to 10#. Think that's purely a coincidence? Have you observed the Ruskies taking, taking, taking the shad relentlessly every year?

Please share your observations fishing what waters over what years.

[Tony Buzolich]

I love Lee's simple logic. Good to hear from him more on the board again. I can't imagine how the Russian River has changed with all the wineries and orchards tapping into such a small amount of available water.

Yes, this thread has evolved in several directions and to the good I think. Lots of folks out there have feelings that are having to change because of environmental conditions (water) and poor governmental decisions that are being bought by big money which further alter our environment.

My first response when I heard about spearing stripers was gut wrenching. Then to think that the American would be available to spear fishermen made it even worse.

When I started the fly fishing department at Johnson's Bait & Tackle in Yuba City one of the first things I did was educate the local folk about not killing the biggest of fish. "Turn the Big Ones Loose" became a mantra and slowly people around here took to the idea.

Killing the largest of fish takes out an entire generation and many to come. One twenty pound female striped bass can produce over a million eggs in one spawning. And if even 1% of those eggs survive under ideal conditions that is considered normal. So, to see these big female stripers being targeted and killed (anywhere) is completely unconscionable.

When I take folks out striper fishing I try and educate every customer and friend I know about turning big fish loose. Take a quick picture and get that fish back into the water ASAP. You'll have a memory of a lifetime to share with friends, and you've helped to sustain a dwindling population. If a customer wants to take home a striper for dinner that's fine but if it's over double digit it goes back in the water. Those are the rules on my boat. Under 10 pounds, the fish are the most plentiful and safe to eat. I educate as many people as I can about the Mercury in large stripers and I think more and more people ARE becoming aware of why to NOT kill these wonderful fish.
Sincerely, Tony

[lee s.]

Well Mark,
As you are interested enough to email me, I guess I'll let all know my opinion and not just you. And it is just opinion.....like other things, everyone has at least one.
I DO believe in fixing the "take". I DO NOT believe fixing the take involves screwing with the "legal" resource user. I would like to use "moral" users, but that is another can of worms.....OOPS! Prefer NO bait too. (Another opinion only, also). Fix the take = (for me) stay the hell out of the tribs during spawning season.....East Branch Russian is a trib, Sulfer creek is a trib, American River is a trib, Feather River is a trib, American and Feather is being "in your face" but there ARE areas of spawning that SHOULD be closed. What happened to the closures above Knight's Landing during the striper spawning season. Did some "paid" educated fish scientist come up with that opening?
I also believe the fish NEEDS to do his part, Bite, to become food. Therefore we are on board to abolish all net fisheries, especially commercial. If you need a net, only what you can pull by hand. Spears....been there, done that, not sporting enough for me.
YES, I believe in fixing the take, but I do not believe the stick and string is the effective place to do it. The stick and string will only take a percentage of the whole. No more, no less.
I am sure there are studies that refute all of this somewhere, but I still believe what I have seen and ONLY a bit of what is written.
R. of a L.C. Loved the movie till, at the end, Tooch tried to give that impression that the "take" was the problem. What can you expect from an old "hay shaker"? Way too damn little was mentioned of the pollution and water robbing done by water municipalities and agriculture (read vineyards) and the effects of such.
By the way, have you turned down your faucets yet, so Jerry can add 30 million more faucets to the state and allow more water for government subsidized crops and commercial building? Wonder what schooled xxxx promoted this. I believe in turning my faucet down to water the fish......but not EXPANSION. I'm going to go close my eyes for a few years now so we do not go the rest of the way crazy.....close enough as it is. ;-)
....lee s.

[Marty Gingras]

...I believe in fixing the take, but I do not believe the stick and string is the effective place to do it. The stick and string will only take a percentage of the whole. No more, no less...

We know from doing the annual mark-recapture study for nearly 50 years that anglers have harvested about 10-25 percent of the legal population each year, and since 1998 annual harvest rate has averaged about 10%. From the same study we know that about 15-50 percent of the legal population dies each year from causes other than harvest (i.e., the combination of old age, predation, etc.).

[lee s.]

Marty,
I know you are doing extensive study of our striper resource, among others. I definitely respect your findings.
Ain't nature grand. Her plan seems to be that everything is a protein collector for the next higher organism up the food chain. Hence, big fish eat little fish, predation, etc. And to provide balance, she produces applicable excesses on the spawing grounds. 100 spawning pairs needs the survival of 100 replacement pairs for species continuation and natural balance. All else produced at spawn is expendable, and will be expended, for predation. Some of her other tools for balance are temporary drought and disease.
And here is where the fall begins. All predators in nature have "armstrong" predation skills and limitations. Man is the only predator not abiding nature's rules. We harvest "armstrong".....stick and string, spears, rocks, hand nets, etc. We also harvest with great enhancement and lethal effect by adding hydraulic and electronic assist (commercial AND sport). We also harvest by environmental degradation and pollution..... chemical, thermal, siltation, or ? Nature does a grand job supplying for "armstrong" predation, but our "assist" predation IS the demise of our resources. Will it be our demise too?
Just more random thoughts.....
....lee s.

[KJE]

10911

Showing up way late, guys, but as a longtime salmonid catch and release guy in the Valley who now lives in the heart of striper territory, I'm just going to leave this graphic here and state that I don't believe that one can support the presence of stripers and concurrently support native/wild salmon and steelhead. These fish are being eaten long before they reach the Delta pumps and virtually every diversion on the Sac is screened, so it isn't either of those scapegoats. They are being eaten by other fish, and of the two primary culprits, one of them is invasive.

[Mark V]

I don't believe that CA can support growing 90% of the produce for the nation, plus thousands of tons of rice for export to Asia every year, plus 39 million people, in our arid environment, AND concurrently support salmon, steelhead, stripers, and all the other water wildlife. I don't think it's too much to ask our government to manage our water resources and the amount and type of farming our lands can bear, so sportsmen don't have to argue over whose favorite species gets to survive.

The way invasive is used seems like a slur. Stripers were brought here ~150yrs? ago and lived in harmony with salmon & steelhead, sturgeon, shad, largemouth, smallmouth, bluegill, etc. They assimilated and thrived; they're an integral part of the ecosystem, and after THAT many generations they should be considered a naturalized species.

Water and farming management are what's needed, not to look over there--at a scapegoat.

Think maybe the spearos are a convenient tool for the farm industry; but if stripers do get mostly wiped out, I don't think the salmon and steelhead or any of the other species will be doing better.

[STEELIES/26c3]

Showing up way late, guys, but as a longtime salmonid catch and release guy in the Valley who now lives in the heart of striper territory, I'm just going to leave this graphic here and state that I don't believe that one can support the presence of stripers and concurrently support native/wild salmon and steelhead. These fish are being eaten long before they reach the Delta pumps and virtually every diversion on the Sac is screened, so it isn't either of those scapegoats. They are being eaten by other fish, and of the two primary culprits, one of them is invasive.

Could you please provide a link to the graphic so that it is readable?

I'll tear it apart then~;)

Thanks
Mark

[Mark V]

Hi KJE,
I understand your love, respect, or even just preference for salmonids. I value salmonids equally and want to protect them--and stripers.

Do you agree that something needs to be done about the over-use of water and over farming (qty) of crops, and too much water-intense crops grown in our arid state?

I see your profile has your loc as Washington DC and you comment that delta pumps are not a scapegoat. I hope you would disclose if you have ties to the farm industry, or relationships with ppl who do. Or on the other hand if you're a scientist.

If you think it's wise to let the farm industry use water without limits, or have no management of how much farming, or water-intense crops.. well please post your opinion on that too.

We definitely agree about protecting salmon and steelhead.

[Darian]

"....and state that I don't believe that one can support the presence of stripers and concurrently support native/wild salmon and steelhead. These fish are being eaten long before they reach the Delta pumps and virtually every diversion on the Sac is screened, so it isn't either of those scapegoats. They are being eaten by other fish, and of the two primary culprits, one of them is invasive." (Italics added)

Interesting belief. I, for one, believe that all of these fish native or naturalized are deserving of our collective support. They've settled into a niche suited to their requirements in the environment for lengthy periods, now. I wouldn't sacrifice any of the Salmonids or Stripers for any of the other. That may be a selfish point of view in KJE's view, but it is what it is.

KJE cites two "....primary culprits...." for predation on anadromous Salmon/Steelhead smolts and says that one of these predators is invasive. Actually, there're more than two invasive predators in the Sacramento/San Joaquin Delta/SF Bay systems and the ocean; all of which are environments that anadromous Salmon/Steelhead use for parts of their life cycles. How about Herons, Pelicans, Cormorants, Osprey, Black Bass, Otters, Halibut, Sharks, Grouper, not excluding adult Salmon/Steelhead to name a few??? Big fish eat little fish and other predators eat them too. I've read some responses to proposed attempts manage/reduce Striper predation that suggest that removal of Stripers most likely result in expansion of the population of other predators. Seems to me that the chart used to support KJE's claim appears correct as far as it goes (fresh/brackish water) but isn't sufficient to support the implied claim that Stripers are the primary culprit.

Even if we accept that all diversions are fully screened and cause zero mortality (and I don't), ag water run-off is untreated and full of mineral salts, fertilizer, herbicide, insecticide chemicals freely released into our waterways (not to mention pollution from partially treated municipal sewage treatment facilities). I'm not sure whether anyone has actually conducted an in depth study of the impact of the degraded ocean environment (oxygen depletion events, changing PH balance, changes in major currents, etc. etc.), yet. But it certainly would add to the body of knowledge on how to best manage for survival of all anadromous species.

These days I'm even wondering if Stripers should be considered invasive, given that their geographic range has shrunk over time after stocking from Oregon to mid-CA on the Pacific Coast?? While it's true that vestiges of those populations still remain in places in Oregon and the CA north coast, there doesn't seem to be enough of them to excite interest beyond dreaming about what was in the past. Of course, this last part is mere speculation on my part but food for thought.

[Rossflyguy]

The other predators you mentioned aren't invasive but native. Not sure what the point is? Half of which are salt water species that prey on the salmon/steelhead who survived their first life cycle.. They don't compare to the Striper who inhabits both salt and fresh water systems.

[Darian]

Actually, I'm not sure why you couldn't understand the point(??). My point was there're more than two principal predators in the area included in the chart, more than one is invasive and that doesn't take into account the ocean environment. To name just a few, Black Bass are non-native and invasive, Cormorant are significant predators, inhabit the entire west coast, and live in the Delta and the ocean. I could add to this list, Pinnipeds (Seals/Sea Lions, etc.) as significant predators. They live in the ocean and the Delta too. Just seemed to be getting into overkill. So, with that in mind, I'm not sure what your point is??? Ya know, nevermind.... It's not worth pursuing any further.

[Rossflyguy]

All of the predators you mentioned are native species other than the Florida strain bass. That's my point. Those cormorants aren't going to snatch steelhead and salmon as much as a Striper would. Don't know why everyone tries to argue the fact that stripers take a big dent out of the smolts. There's no argument.

[Darian]

Actually, I didn't say that Stripers aren't a primary predator on anadromous Salmonids. Just trying to point out that there's a lot more to this than laying the blame for demise of Salmon/Steelhead stocks at the feet of Striped Bass. Not sure about this but I'm not sure there's been a lot of studies done on the impact of predators other than Striped Bass (native or non-native) on Salmon or Steelhead in the Delta or rivers of this state. And, regardless of whether a predator is native or non-native, the impact on prey fish is the same. So, that's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.