Guide Rate

[koffler]

What's the going rate tip wise for a full day guided trip these days assuming it's a stellar trip?

[FISHEYE]

I suppose it depends on where your trip is but generally 15-20%.

[Troutstalker55B]

Depends on your experience with your outing, how personable your guide was, what they offered, and what they taught. A good example would be my trips at Lake Davis last fall, the catch rates were the poorest in 19 years, but I still received $100 tips from guiding two anglers. My formula for tipping is simple, give X amount of dollars for how you were treated, not on how many fish were caught. - J.

[johnsquires]

I'm certain it varies area to area, but in my area a tip in a restaurant is 15-20%, depending on service. Then you might want to ask yourself who is working harder, a waiter/waitress or a guide.

Then there's the dynamic from the other side - if a client makes your job easier as a guide, the tip is great, but the amount is icing on the cake, whereas if the client could fill a chapter in the book about how not to conduct yourself on a guided fishing trip, then I don't care how much they tip, they're never coming again, they're banned, and maybe all their relatives and offspring are banned forever and eternity. Sorry, but that was therapeutic for me.

[Larry S]

My thinking has always been 25%: but then, I'm known as a "bleeding heart liberal." LOL.
Recently fished the Eel/Mattole with Mark P with little success on adult steelhead. He was outstanding
and took us over great water with sage advice. Would book him again in a heartbeat.

[johnsquires]

My thinking has always been 25%: but then, I'm known as a "bleeding heart liberal." LOL.
Recently fished the Eel/Mattole with Mark P with little success on adult steelhead. He was outstanding
and took us over great water with sage advice. Would book him again in a heartbeat.

Larry, I wish there was a "Like" button on here.

[JasonB]

I'm certain it varies area to area, but in my area a tip in a restaurant is 15-20%, depending on service. Then you might want to ask yourself who is working harder, a waiter/waitress or a guide.

Then there's the dynamic from the other side - if a client makes your job easier as a guide, the tip is great, but the amount is icing on the cake, whereas if the client could fill a chapter in the book about how not to conduct yourself on a guided fishing trip, then I don't care how much they tip, they're never coming again, they're banned, and maybe all their relatives and offspring are banned forever and eternity. Sorry, but that was therapeutic for me.

Having worked a long time as a guide and instructor (non fishing), I think this hits pretty close to home. For me, the tip is a form of communication as well: whether giving one or receiving one it can be a great indicator of just how well things went (which isn't to say how many or how big). I have had thankfully very few clients that met the qualifications for blacklisting, but interestingly enough some of them actually tipped fairly well. I have to say here too, that at least for me the manner in which the tip is given plays a big role as well.

A tip of any amount, given with clearly heartfelt gratitude is more important/valuable to me than a tip that as given in a begrudging or unappreciative manner. The most memorable tip I ever had was quite modest percentage wise, but it came from an 18 year old kid who was clearly VERY keen and enthusiastic and who learned a ton. His tip was modest compared to others that I've had, but clearly a substantial amount for him
As for amount; you'll get plenty of opinions as there are lots of variables, but I think anywhere from %10-%30 for a good guide who did you well. If you're worried about offending them, I think you're pretty safe in that range.
JB

[johnsquires]

So, Koffler, thanks for bringing this subject up. It's an interesting subject and an important subject that is not addressed often.

As a client, I sometimes feel uncomfortable when "that time" comes. So you talk to the other clients over to the side and try to come up with a number, right?

And, by the way, there are other ways to tip the guide - a great cigar around a campfire, bourbon, wine (good wine).

I'll share that as a guide I had a client tip me what I felt was too much one time and I sent a check later to him refunding some of the tip. (I know, my wife reminds me constantly why I'll never be rich).

I just think the bottom line is be a good client and tip what you think is appropriate. We're all just trying to have a good time.

[TyV]

So, I would like someone to explain to me how a Fly Fishing Guide should get tipped OR rather why there is an expectation of ANY tip whatsoever. I am dead serious. I have no problem tipping for service in many industries. However, NONE of them make anywhere near the money that a good guide makes. I have always been pretty good at math so I am going to do a little. Most independent guides get $350/day or more. IF they work 20 days a month(less than a FT employee at a "normal" job) That is $7k/month and $84k/year. That's damn good money. I know many will disagree with me and I have had this discussion with friends, including JasonB on this board. I don't get it. If it's about respect or how good of a job the guide does, I would say that you wouldn't have gotten much business if you didn't. They are being paid extremely well...I don't think ANY profession service or otherwise with that level of cost/income for the provider should EVER be tipped. I am not trying to pick on fishing guides in any way. There are tons of people in the service industry that make minimum wage, yet don't get tips and aren't ever considered for tips...yet, quality guides make a very comfortable living and we should tip them?

[cyama]

Fish On I think your math be off by quite a bit. Most guides do not average 20 days a month. If they do they probably have a good chiropractor. Most of the good guides probably put in 150 to 180 days a year. They also have higher taxes and insurance due to being a sole proprietor. What you may not see just getting in the boat is the guide may have spent 1-2 hours getting to the launch ramp and 1-2 hours getting back to their house, probably a 12-14 hour day. Not to mention all those free guide trips they donate to various clubs and events. The guides I have met work really hard and are experts in their field. In general as Fisheye said the typical tip should be 15-20%.

[TyV]

Cyama, let's just say your number of 180 days year is closer. @350/day...that's 63k/year. @$375/day...that's $67.5k/year. For working less than 1/2 the days of the year. I bet 80+% of people in this country would sign up for that type of income, work and time off per year. As I said, I am NOT picking on fishing guides. Simply that anyone who makes that type of income shouldn't expect to be tipped...irregardless of what their job may be. I will say this, I wouldn't ever feel obliged to tip anyone that makes that kind of money. Now, If I feel like a fishing trip or any other service provided was beyond expectations...I would definitely consider tipping. I would just say that when I pay that amount of money for that type of service, I believe I am paying for outstanding service in the rate. If I get that service, I believe I got what I paid for. If I don't, then I wouldn't book that service again. Either way, most of the time...I don't think about a gratuity being appropriate.

[troutless]

IF they work 20 days a month(less than a FT employee at a "normal" job) That is $7k/month and $84k/year.... They are being paid extremely well...

Don't forget : lunches, gas, leaders, flies, rods the clients break, self-employment tax, sunk capital in boats/trailers/trucks, and, they are not getting retirement/medical benefits many "normal" jobs provide. Particularly given, AFAIK, very few work 240 days a year, net compensation is much less then $84k, maybe comparable to a "normal" job paying $60k/yr. Whether that qualifies as 'paid extremely well' I think is a matter of perspective and the local cost of living. Better than flipping burgers but nothing like what a well-educated professional would bring in.

[Randy Lee]

Note to guides. Might think twice about taking Fish_On as a client. Just saying. The "tip" of the ice berg only gets worse the deeper you go.
Cheers, Randy Lee

[NCL]

As a general rule I try to tip at least 20% but there are a couple of conditions that sometimes I go below that amount. If the guide is the owner operator of the service then I usually tip less than the 20% because I figure the guide has built in the aforementioned costs into his fee and the tip is more of an expression of "thank you". If the guide is booked through a shop then I usually always go the 20% unless it is the odd occasion that I book the trip by myself. I recently went on a guided trip that was due to a last minute cancellation and no one I knew could or would go. I had one of the most outstanding trips I have ever been on but due to the cost of the trip I was not able to tip as much as I normally would. With all this said I have never had an occasion where I felt the tip was enough but not being rich and on a tight fishing budget I give what I can.

[JasonB]

Cyama, let's just say your number of 180 days year is closer. @350/day...that's 63k/year. @$375/day...that's $67.5k/year. For working less than 1/2 the days of the year. I bet 80+% of people in this country would sign up for that type of income, work and time off per year. As I said, I am NOT picking on fishing guides. Simply that anyone who makes that type of income shouldn't expect to be tipped...irregardless of what their job may be. I will say this, I wouldn't ever feel obliged to tip anyone that makes that kind of money. Now, If I feel like a fishing trip or any other service provided was beyond expectations...I would definitely consider tipping. I would just say that when I pay that amount of money for that type of service, I believe I am paying for outstanding service in the rate. If I get that service, I believe I got what I paid for. If I don't, then I wouldn't book that service again. Either way, most of the time...I don't think about a gratuity being appropriate.

If it's about how much money they make that affects your thoughts on this take a closer look at opperating expenses; they eat up a huge chunk of that daily rate. Between gear, gas, vehicle, insurance, permits, parking passes, and (depending where) a gauntlet of various agencies. For the school I work for, off the top of my head we have to pay fees to: BLM, El Dorado county, Sacramento county, State parks, Forest service, and I'm forgetting a couple of biggies still...Then there are some of the specific operations requirements that we need to meet at various locations in order to utilize them, some of which have made it very costly to flat out cost prohibitive to even offer those options. Not sure if that last one effects many fishing guides, but I would suspect that in some places it might; there are probably other regulatory issues that affect their bottom line as well. I think you might be surprised to see just how much is actually left over; it's kind of insane really.

For me personally it's kind of irrelevant how much they make or not though, the very few times I've shared a guide with my Dad we have been pleased to extremely pleased with the knowledge, help, service, and experience we got. As I said, the tip is a means to communicate the appreciation (for me); and we tipped accordingly to those hard working and personable guides. I think there will always be a pretty big difference of thoughts on this matter, so go with your gut. Personally I would hate have great day with an awesome guide, and then have an ending to the day that left a bit of a sour feeling by stiffing them on the tip.
JB

[johnsquires]

As with most issues in life, generalizations fall short, in my opinion.

I know there are guides in the Keys and elsewhere who are charging upwards of $500 a day and are doing very well -- in fact, are next to impossible to book.
I've had several guides who are barely making it, sharing living quarters with other guides.
The majority of restaurant wait staff are making minimum wage, but those in high-end restaurants do very well.

I have a friend who I literally follow out of a restaurant and put more of a tip down on top of his because he's still tipping like it's 1960.

I recently had my most challenging client ever. It would take a chapter in a book to explain all the ways in which he was a challenge. And while his acquaintance on the same trip, receiving the same service, left a sizeable tip, Mr. Challenge left nothing, said nothing, no thanks you, no goodbye. So, I'm sorry, but my experience has been it's more about personality, approach to life, than whether you believe someone is already being compensated sufficiently without a tip.

[Charlie S]

Most folks only see the top line on guide rates. Most of the guides I have fished with have been very professional, caring and educational. They have done their best to put me on fish...results don't matter. But if I am paying a guide $350-$450 for a day's fishing I also have to figure what it is costing the guide. Fuel, food, flies, insurance, guide license, wear and tear on equipment, and other costs do reduce the "take home" amount a guide realizes. If a guide has done what he or she is paid to do I would consider 20-25% to be reasonable. It is not an easy avocation. I would challenge anyone here who has not guided to spend, not day - that's too easy, but a month guiding, dealing with difficult conditions and clients, to say that guides are over paid. Additionally, positive feed back on public forums such as this is appreciated and of value to every guide. Guides that don't fulfill their obligations need not be addressed here as they should not be around long.

[Rick J]

I generally tip $50 but that is when I am fishing with a friend so the overall tip for the day is $100. But really the only guides I go with I have been with for the last 10 years or more and consider them more friends than guides

[cdevine]

What I've learned is there are a lot of "A" holes in life and unfortunately some end up in the boat as either a client or guide. But most people are good at least I would like to think. I tip around $80-100 pretty much no matter what. But with the internet today and social media its pretty easy to do research on guides that are recommended and those who aren't. Personally I've never had a bad experience. But I'm a pretty easy going person and just happy to be on the river in the first place.

As for money, you don't go into guiding to get rich. I would think that a good marriage economically would be a spouse who has a job with insurance and benefits. But its a passion occupation and those that can make it I tip my hat to you.

[Troutstalker55B]

What I've learned is there are a lot of "A" holes in life and unfortunately some end up in the boat as either a client or guide. But most people are good at least I would like to think. I tip around $80-100 pretty much no matter what. But with the internet today and social media its pretty easy to do research on guides that are recommended and those who aren't. Personally I've never had a bad experience. But I'm a pretty easy going person and just happy to be on the river in the first place.

As for money, you don't go into guiding to get rich. I would think that a good marriage economically would be a spouse who has a job with insurance and benefits. But its a passion occupation and those that can make it I tip my hat to you.

Chris,

Your last paragraph is what it's all about. This is my passion, and a legacy handed down from my father. I'm here to educate, share, and enjoy others company on the water. If I was a millionaire I would still guide, do presentations, and write. This is why the great creator put me on this earth. There is so much that goes into a being a successful guide, not just costs, but time. It's a 24/7 job. The feeling I get from providing my guests with a memorable day on the water, and the appreciation in their eyes and words means everything to me. Very moving. We are all so blessed to be able to fly fish, it's more than a sport, it's an awesome life. - J

[cdevine]

Chris,

Your last paragraph is what it's all about. This is my passion, and a legacy handed down from my father. I'm here to educate, share, and enjoy others company on the water. If I was a millionaire I would still guide, do presentations, and write. This is why the great creator put me on this earth. There is so much that goes into a being a successful guide, not just costs, but time. It's a 24/7 job. The feeling I get from providing my guests with a memorable day on the water, and the appreciation in their eyes and words means everything to me. Very moving. We are all so blessed to be able to fly fish, it's more than a sport, it's an awesome life. - J

Troutstalker- Well said my friend.. well said. That was perfect.

Also, one last thing. Did you learn on the water? You might not have landed 30 fish but did you pick up tips and techniquest that will help you down the road? That is invaluable to me. The guides that I've used have all helped me and my son. Get out there and enjoy the water!

[TaylerW]

When you book a guide, you are paying for access to knowledge. Coming from someone who has not lived this life, that review seems harsh. Say I have a client meeting me on the yuba at 8. I am there ready and waiting before he gets there. I was and clean my boat everyday. Then I prep gear, tie flies ect. Sure you see the 8 hours on the water, but the stuff you see, is barely half of the job. I am a independent guide as well as work for an outfitter. I have a brand new drift boat ($10,000) boat rods and reels ($4000), insurance ($600), fuel ($50-100). Think about that next time you say we make too much money. I am very proud of my craft.

[Gene S]

As I said, I am NOT picking on fishing guides. Simply that anyone who makes that type of income shouldn't expect to be tipped...irregardless of what their job may be. I will say this, I wouldn't ever feel obliged to tip anyone that makes that kind of money. Now, If I feel like a fishing trip or any other service provided was beyond expectations...I would definitely consider tipping. I would just say that when I pay that amount of money for that type of service, I believe I am paying for outstanding service in the rate. If I get that service, I believe I got what I paid for. If I don't, then I wouldn't book that service again. Either way, most of the time...I don't think about a gratuity being appropriate.

We are in agreement for the most part...

Lower paying jobs such as waiters, bartenders, maids, etc who's wages are based on receiving tips to make ends meet and who give above average service IMO deserve tips in the 20-30% range. Independent guide rates in some areas are now closing in on $500 a trip and I expect great service but don't feel obligated in any way in regards to a tip . The way I look at it guides who feel put out with low or no tips should either raise their rates or look for another job. There are a lot of jobs where business costs are much higher and physical effort far more demanding than guiding... where there's no such thing as a tip. An exception would be a guide who works for a shop owner and receive only a portion of the trip fee, then a tip might be considered if the guide gave exceptional service.

[troutless]

We are in agreement for the most part...

Lower paying jobs such as waiters, bartenders, maids, etc who's wages are based on receiving tips to make ends meet and who give above average service IMO deserve tips in the 20-30% range.[....] The way I look at it guides who feel put out with low or no tips should either raise their rates or look for another job.


Two comments. First, variable compensation is common for many well-paying jobs : people in sales, private sector upper management, financial industry, much of technology. Anyplace a person's individual performance is likely to have a high impact on business outcome, probably there is some incentive structure in place, because you want to incentivize and reward high performance. And I see fishing guides similarly, I don't tip flat across the board, the ones with more specialized expertise, that I learn more from, and that put out greater effort, get a bigger check at the end of the day. I think most people agree, people with more expertise/experience and that work harder should be compensated more. But my observation is whenever the words 'tip' or 'bonus' comes out, it sends the discussion to a weird place.

Second, as far as, 'should raise their rates'. It's not that simple. Like any other industry, there is sort of an established business model that all the players are bound to, to some extent. Clients do their calculations of whether they can afford a trip based on factoring in a tip, and, likewise, those tips are built into the business models of the guides. Again, part of the compensation structure. Rates for these types of services are always in a somewhat tight range, it's not like an individual guide is able to decide, gee, I think I'll just raise my rates and then not worry about tips. It won't work, unless everyone, on both sides, simultaneously decides to change how things are done, and that won't happen.

[Darian]

Hmmm,.... I get the point that guides/owners perform a service similar to sales but am not sure I see them as the same as salaried, salary+commission and/or bonus compensated employees. The incentives system cited is structured, "tipping" is not. Structured incentives may be memorialized in a formal agreement, "tipping" is not.

Following is what I've taken from posters in this thread so far:

1. "Tipping" is a personal choice.

2. No contractual agreement (real or implied) exists for "tipping".

3. In some cases, you're dealing with the owner/guide, in others a wage earner.

4. An owner/guide may change rates at will (but must remain competitive).

5. According to prior posts by some owner/guides in this thread, tips are not figured in their rates and whether offered or not is the choice of the client.

6. The investment in equipment, boats or motor vehicles, etc., on the part of an owner/guide is irrelevant to the decision of whether to tip or not.

7. Gratuities are given in consideration of receipt of some level of service (service includes guides ability to put the client on fish, knowledge/experience, personality and incidentals (ie drinks, lunch, etc.).

8. A guides choice, if a gratuity is not received for a prior trip, is to accept or decline a future request to book a trip from that client.

[johnsquires]

This is a very entertaining thread. Lots of good observations set forth. As with most issues these days, it's doubtful anyone will change their practice based on the opinions of others, but, hey, setting forth opinions is one of the reasons for having a forum.

And I guess the bottom line is if you don't like the show, you can always change the channel (Darien's #8).

I'll share with you that I had a float plane pilot last year in AK who worked his butt off for us. I know he makes pretty good money, comparatively speaking, but I felt he went above and beyond. When I got home, I sent him a check for $100 as a tip. I was feeling guilty, second thoughts, because I thought maybe I was a bit cheap on the tip. About a week later he called me in CA and thanked me profusely and told me to call him for help or questions about anything in his area. Small price to pay for what I know I'll get in return.

[midger]

This is an interesting thread and I see no hard and fast rules on tipping coming out of it.

I do see a difference in whether the guide is working under a shop with some of the base amount going to the shop or working independently where 100% of the trip amount goes to the guide. I tend to tip the ones working under the shop's license a bit more because I realize they're getting less for the trip. I don't factor in how nice their drift boat is, what type vehicle they drive to the river in, or any of the other intangibles/tangibles others have mentioned as we all have "expenses" regardless of the work we do.

I don't mind tipping but I don't see it as an obligation that requires a set amount. Just like restaurant service where I tip based upon actual service received (not the food quality, restaurant ambiance, etc, but service received) I base tips on how the guide performed (not fish caught, not weather, not crowds on the river etc--things guide often has little or no control over)

I once had a well known guide out of a well known shop take myself and a friend on a well known river for the day. Folks would know him in an instant if I mentioned the name. No doubt he had a lot of knowledge of the watershed we were on that day, and he was the outfitter of record having other guides who worked for him. Basically all he did was row the boat and chat us up a bit. Every time he stopped the boat, he'd lay in the grass, take a nap, etc. Yes we caught fish, but not because of the guide. Rather in spite of the guide.

Did I feel obligated to lay a large tip on him? Not in the least. Again, it boils down to a service thing. I can row myself and do oftentimes. I want the guide to teach me something new. I don't need my hand held, but give me info on the watershed, the history of the area, the hatches that generally come off and when, and other pertinent info. They're in the service industry so provide a service.

The other two guides we went this trip ( 2 different shops and 2 different watersheds) were excellent and we tipped accordingly.

[Scott V]

I only have one thing to say on tips. If you don't get one, don't be upset. Some of us, like myself can not afford a guide. And when I can which has been maybe 3 times I had to save up for months just to be able to afford their fee. I wish I was able to tip, but the price for a guide in my book is just too expensive. $350+ is just way out of my budget.

I am not saying you are over priced, I am just saying their are people like myself that just can not afford it and are thankful for the few times we can.

[Darian]

johnsquires,.... Whether you agree with my attempt to boil down the wide variety of opinions in this thread or even like it, isn't really required. It would be nice if you could at least try to spell my name correctly (considering it appears at the head of all posts I make).

[TyV]

I only have one thing to say on tips. If you don't get one, don't be upset. Some of us, like myself can not afford a guide. And when I can which has been maybe 3 times I had to save up for months just to be able to afford their fee. I wish I was able to tip, but the price for a guide in my book is just too expensive. $350+ is just way out of my budget.

I am not saying you are over priced, I am just saying their are people like myself that just can not afford it and are thankful for the few times we can.

I am really glad to hear a lot of other fishers takes on this subject honestly. Only the occasional comment, without much thought or intelligence. I agree that there are a lot of factors in anything of this nature. However, I strongly believe that a guide should NEVER feel slighted when they don't get tipped. They should ONLY feel slighted if their clients don't recommend them to friend/family/others OR don't book them again. Tips for guides should not be expected. Of course they are going to get tipped in various ways and of various values...

I will say this, if I have a great day and would totally book a guide again and/or recommend them to others...I wouldn't do that if I felt like the guide felt stiffed for not getting a tip. You didn't get stiffed, you got paid and paid pretty well. That's just the facts.

[mems]

Aloha, I guide in Hawaii, one of the toughest places to catch fish. I work hard to help clients have a fun day. I charge a very reasonable rate and feel the fishery doesn't warrant a higher price. I get tipped very well on most occasions because of how hard I work to get people on fish and to make sure they are happy and enjoy Hawaii. If I get a low tip I hope it was because of the challenging fishery and not because of my service. I got to guide on Palmyra and that was great because of all the fish the clients caught. It was wonderful to take fish off the hook all day long. I really enjoy guiding, but it is not my primary employment but a service I provide to help grow fly fishing here in Hawaii. I think a tip is a form of thank you for a job well done. I wish more professions operated on this basis. People would work harder and enjoy it more if they made and effort and not just went through the motions. Most of my clients become my friends and we stay in touch and now they can fish on their own and share their successes. Plus they send me pictures of the weird fish they catch and ask what it is. When I travel I try to tip my guides well, because I know how tough a job it can be. Empathy can be a powerful motivator. Mems.

[Bob Scheidt]

A tip is a nice present. Please don't think any of us deserve a tip for doing a good job. In my 30 years as an electronic field service tech, if I didn't do a great job overall for my customers we were fired. A good job should be a given if one wants to continue to have customers. I think a guide should charge enough where the guide feels he is making the money they want for the day. If there is no tip this way, the guide is still happy since they are getting the money they want for their work. Charge $500 for the day if that is what a guide would need to make a living, don't rely on an optional tip to make it. I'm like Scott V, I can't afford that kind of money for a day of discretionay spending. Tipping comes from what someone can afford as an option, not what the employee needs to make a living, get that from your fees. Most guides a really great people and very fun to spend the day with. I think most of them are very worthy of a nice tip, just don't rely on something that may or may not happen to make the money you desire.

[Gene S]

"I wish I was able to tip, but the price for a guide in my book is just too expensive. $350+ is just way out of my budget."

Guided trips on my home rivers have become more expensive than what you indicate making it even more cost prohibitive to a lot of anglers. Just completed a guided cost survey on four of my home rivers and the current going rate for an all day two angler trip ranges from $450 to $525 which does not include flies, gear, license, or gratuities. One angler all day trips are from $450 to $495.

My intent is not to disparage guides. They provide a needed service and have to put up with all kinds of conditions, skill levels, and people with less than positive attitudes....while at the same time being expected to produce and provide a pleasant experience. That's a tough act to follow. Some of my most memorable experiences have been with guides who were definitely worth their salt, and who also were compensated with a substantial gratuity. However at the current guide rates I no longer feel that a gratuity needs to be part of the days severance package, with a few exceptions....

[ycflyfisher]

Can’t say I’ve ever put much thought into subject prior to reading this thread. I’ve fished with a few guides, but I’ve never paid a guide to take me fishing, so I’ve never tipped a guide, nor really pondered how much (if at all) they should be tipped.

While not a popular opinion, I get where Steelerheeler and Fish On are coming from in that it’s a weird convention to “tip” someone for providing a recreational, non-essential service when their baseline rate is already over $400/day. You just don’t usually see that convention for services that are not only more essential, more demanding (in terms of effort) or more difficult to acquire (in terms of skill set).

I’m also not buying the whole “guide expenses” justification because it just doesn’t make sense to me for the chosen profession. I think it is legit for some professions, “fishing guide” IMO is not one of them.

I’d buy that a professional auto mechanic would not need floor lifts, $20k in tools, expensive mills and diagnostic equipment, a lease on a brick and mortar shop, etc. if they were not a professional auto mechanic.

I’d buy the same rationalization that a professional gunsmith wouldn’t have $20k+ in lathes, mills, smithing tools, and wouldn’t have spent several years of their lives working for apprentice wages under a more experienced smith if they weren’t a professional gunsmith.

Same goes for general contractor types, medical professionals and a myriad of other professions.

Any fishing guide that claims they wouldn’t have a boat, a vehicle to pull said boat, 1000s of dollars worth of equipment their clients can use if “I were not a fishing guide” likely aren’t being honest with themselves or their clients.

Even if the guides weren’t guiding, they’d all still be fishing and they’d still have most if not all those expenses. I’d imagine they’re depreciating those boats/vehicles/gear and writing off all fishing related expenses as business expenses. Seems like a huge tax benefit to me what most of us that elect to have those same expenses don't have.

There’s some over and above costs associated with guiding for sure, but they’re often overstated IMO. Guiding seems to have a really low overhead and start up cost compared to most business ventures and a relatively high ceiling for earning potential. There’s substantial risk for sure when the economy heads south, since they’re providing recreational and not essential services, and that environmental conditions can limit their potential work days.

All that said, I think that for every guide who would argue that they aren’t well compensated for the service they provide (tips not included) or expound on how hard they have to work, there’s 10 that understand that they are extremely well compensated for their services, and that taking people fishing isn’t really working hard at all compared to what most of us have to do to earn a living.

[johnsquires]

johnsquires,.... Whether you agree with my attempt to boil down the wide variety of opinions in this thread or even like it, isn't really required. It would be nice if you could at least try to spell my name correctly (considering it appears at the head of all posts I make).

Actually, I happen to agree with you. And I apologize for spelling your name wrong. I'll try to do better in the future.
On the other hand, it would be nice if you didn't make the assumption that I didn't try to spell your name right. Sometimes I make mistakes, like when I spelled compliment wrong on the caption of another post.

[Darian]

johnsquires, I was already giving you credit for making a mistake....

[Rossflyguy]

Can’t say I’ve ever put much thought into subject prior to reading this thread. I’ve fished with a few guides, but I’ve never paid a guide to take me fishing, so I’ve never tipped a guide, nor really pondered how much (if at all) they should be tipped.

While not a popular opinion, I get where Steelerheeler and Fish On are coming from in that it’s a weird convention to “tip” someone for providing a recreational, non-essential service when their baseline rate is already over $400/day. You just don’t usually see that convention for services that are not only more essential, more demanding (in terms of effort) or more difficult to acquire (in terms of skill set).

I’m also not buying the whole “guide expenses” justification because it just doesn’t make sense to me for the chosen profession. I think it is legit for some professions, “fishing guide” IMO is not one of them.

I’d buy that a professional auto mechanic would not need floor lifts, $20k in tools, expensive mills and diagnostic equipment, a lease on a brick and mortar shop, etc. if they were not a professional auto mechanic.

I’d buy the same rationalization that a professional gunsmith wouldn’t have $20k+ in lathes, mills, smithing tools, and wouldn’t have spent several years of their lives working for apprentice wages under a more experienced smith if they weren’t a professional gunsmith.

Same goes for general contractor types, medical professionals and a myriad of other professions.

Any fishing guide that claims they wouldn’t have a boat, a vehicle to pull said boat, 1000s of dollars worth of equipment their clients can use if “I were not a fishing guide” likely aren’t being honest with themselves or their clients.

Even if the guides weren’t guiding, they’d all still be fishing and they’d still have most if not all those expenses. I’d imagine they’re depreciating those boats/vehicles/gear and writing off all fishing related expenses as business expenses. Seems like a huge tax benefit to me what most of us that elect to have those same expenses don't have.

There’s some over and above costs associated with guiding for sure, but they’re often overstated IMO. Guiding seems to have a really low overhead and start up cost compared to most business ventures and a relatively high ceiling for earning potential. There’s substantial risk for sure when the economy heads south, since they’re providing recreational and not essential services, and that environmental conditions can limit their potential work days.

All that said, I think that for every guide who would argue that they aren’t well compensated for the service they provide (tips not included) or expound on how hard they have to work, there’s 10 that understand that they are extremely well compensated for their services, and that taking people fishing isn’t really working hard at all compared to what most of us have to do to earn a living.


Agree with this 110%. Not saying I wouldn't tip but to expect a tip because you own the boat or gear isn't the reason to tip. It's just like a waiter. You don't tip because they showed up to work right?

[bigfly]

Throughout history, there have been guys too cheap to tip. But there isn't any historical record of them.......
Not sure where this arises from, except maybe the attachment to money.
I am a guide and have hired guides, and tipped.
It's like what the cab driver says in "The worlds fastest Indian." Open your wallet and let the moths out.........
I understand being too cheap to hire a guide.....besides, it's so much more fun to teach yourself..........
But too cheap to tip him after you do?
On every forum there are 1-2 guys who need to state that they won't tip...where else can you gripe on the subject?
I can say I don't pine for tips, but do feel the love when clients do tip.
I try to keep my price low to help more people to go fishing, so the tip is nice.
As someone already said. Guide for a month and then we'll talk about it. Most wouldn't make it a week.....
It has been a tradition to tip your Gilly since they were invented, but don't stand on tradition eh?
Obviously, if there is a scheduling conflict between two clients, I will just happen to pick the one who tips......
I have very fond memories of several clients who tipped me well.
My favorite tipped me to call him to say when it's good, before booking me...(how to make money work for you...)
Another has treated me like family..
They brought beer, tipped well, took me out to a nice dinner, gifted a bottle of wine, and then sent feathers from a duck hunt a week later........
We are still connected and I'm ready at a moments notice to work my tushy off for them!
But then. I always do......
Just a thought.

Jim

[Rossflyguy]

Before I reply I'm not saying I wouldn't tip just to clear it up. So...it's one thing to say you appreciate tips but to automatically assume you deserve it is different. Business wise it's smarter to do the extra work for those who tip well and keep them as clients because that guaranteed cash flow for you. I mean I look out especially for my clients who use my service on a reg basis so they keep using me. It's not the fisherman's job to automatically tip but it's the guides job to work for it. If I didn't do a good enough job keeping a clients hundreds of thousands worth of product to a desired temp (yes I do refrigeration) it's to the curb with me. A majority of us work really hard for our money and to say they deserve a tip I believe is not the way to make sure the guide stays on top of his game. I'm no guide but I interact heavily with my clients so I know what I need to do to keep them a customer. From a business stand point tipping keeps fishing guides elite. If they want that extra $100 a day than they should know the hatches, spots, patterns, and have the personality to make the trip more than just fishing. I mean a guides opinion about tipping is very biased. Of course you want a tip. Bigfly, this wasn't addressed to your guiding business at all. You're an awesome guide and Ive seen your videos, top knotch. But the other guide who commented earlier that he wouldn't take on a client again if he didn't tip well or not at all. That just tells me you're looking for a hand out no matter what quality service your given and that's not good work ethic. A guides rate is around $400-450 plus the gas it takes to get to the location, plus lodging (if it's out of town), plus food, etc. It costs more for the client than it does the guide. Usually the guide lives closer to the location. This doesn't apply to all guides. Bottom line is rewards aren't handed out for free.

[JasonB]

...
From a business stand point tipping keeps fishing guides elite. If they want that extra $100 a day than they should know the hatches, spots, patterns, and have the personality to make the trip more than just fishing. I mean a guides opinion about tipping is very biased. Of course you want a tip...

I think that's the idea behind tipping, in any industry: as the person providing the service, it's up to you to "go the extra mile" to earn a gratuity. For the client, it is a means to convey appreciation and recognition of the level of service you received (hopefully). I'm pretty sure that any intelligent person working in a field where tipping is common does work harder, go the extra mile, etc. I know I sure do!!! I also know that the more work that I put into my job the more I am hopeful that it will be appreciated. Sure not all guides are great, and likely some have higher work ethics than others, care more/less, etc. Same with any industry. Tip if you feel it's appropriate, and you feel good doing so. Otherwise don't. I certainly would NOT tip a guide who I had paid a lot of money who then put little to no effort into the job.

For me at least, when I know someone is appreciative of how much I have put into my time with them, it helps further my own energy and inspiration levels to serve them even better the next time. One time My father and I had booked an afternoon of steelhead fishing with Nate Bailey on the Rogue. Nate was very understanding of the fact that my fathers health made early morning starts difficult, so he booked us at a half day rate and agreed to meet us at our own start time based on his physical constraints. He was very helpful working within my fathers physical limitations, while also being helpful in improving my spey casting and swinging techniques. He had his work cut out that day, and the fishing was very slow (timing issue mostly). It became clear that Nate really, really wanted to put us on some fish and went way out of his way to work with two very different skill sets and fishing methods to connect one or both of us. It didn't quite happen, in one hole after another; he worked the single mile of water so hard and thoroughly that we arrived at the takeout in the dark. The hours he worked that day (just the ones on water with us) ended up being pretty close to what he provided for his full day rate. You bet we tipped him well!

Tipping obviously is not the only way, nor even the most important way of showing your appreciation. It is, however, a very easy way to convey lack of appreciation: by not leaving a tip for service provided in any industry where tipping is pretty common. Part of the issue I see here is a confusion of issues: Personal sentiment on whether or not tipping should be appropriate (conceptually) vs whether or not tipping is common/standard in any given industry (reality). The OP was about the later, and asked for some guidelines about how much would be considered reasonable; NOT the former, do you tip your guide and why? Two VERY different discussions, which have been blurred into one thread here.

Furthermore, I've been a bit surprised at the lack of respect shown in the tone of several comments made in this thread by a number of people. I have to wonder: perhaps I've been very fortunate with the handful of guides I've met/known/hired? As the kinds of negative comments I've seen here certainly don't apply well to any of them! For those who are so opposed to the concept of tipping a guide, I would hope that they would feel justified enough in those convictions to respectfully convey them to any prospective guides ahead of time. It would certainly help to eliminate any misunderstandings...

[Rossflyguy]

That's my point. Your guide went the extra mile compared to a guide that won't take the same client again if they don't tip well. Some people are in it for more than the money and that's what gets you those large tips. I also think that the comment stating the tip covers gear, gas, insurance, etc also turned this convo. Others said the tip isn't for their gas and gear which I had agreed with. Usually the costs of the service include this stuff IF they need to replace things (which most gear is lifetime warranty and fishing gear for guides is a tax write off). The tip should be strictly for the guides "performance". In the end it's business and if a client doesn't want to tip 20% it shouldn't be frowned upon. I've never hired a guide and I'm 100% positive I'd give them at least 20% just got their knowledge BUT this business is customer service and you get all kinds on both sides.

[TyV]

Out of respect for another friend and fisherman, I am deleting this latest comment. It is best to agree to disagree. It is clear that there are many on both sides of this topic. Some more respectful than others...I am editing this post as I let myself stray into that category due to being very disrespected by one guides comments. I will make this my last post! Best to all. Thanks for taking part in the discussion to all that respectfully did so. To the rest...I am sorry you couldn't.

[Charlie S]

Hey, how about those Giants? Time to go fishing guys, with or without......

[tcorfey]

I know I appreciate it when someone recognizes me for a job well done and we have award programs in my business that allows for that. The tip is the guides award program and that is how we as sports show our appreciation for a job well done.

In my experience if a person whether a guide or not feels he/she did a good job and really put forth their best effort but, did not get recognized for it then they generally don't feel good about putting that same effort in the next time. On the other hand if you work hard and get rewarded or recognized for that effort you are more willing to make that same effort again. I believe that is human nature and is the basis for all awards programs.

[bigfly]

My business isn't based on tips.....it's up to the client...
The point is, the clients that don't tip, don't leave an impression one way or another....
I just wonder if I overlooked something important.....disappointed them??
If one doesn't feel like tipping that's fine. Maybe let the guide know you don't tip, in general, then they will understand....
Just hoping you understand like anyone, it's nice to know we helped.

That's all.......except, I don't do videos.....

Jim

[cyama]

So funny if all of you go back to page 1 Koffler was asking how much should you tip for a stellar trip!!! So to answer the question I would say 25%. Throw the guide a hundred dollar bill so he doesn't have to pay taxes….

[TyV]

My business isn't based on tips.....it's up to the client...
The point is, the clients that don't tip, don't leave an impression one way or another....
I just wonder if I overlooked something important.....disappointed them??
If one doesn't feel like tipping that's fine. Maybe let the guide know you don't tip, in general, then they will understand....
Just hoping you understand like anyone, it's nice to know we helped.

That's all.......except, I don't do videos.....

Jim

Jim, this is the type of thoughtful and well meaning posts I have come to expect from you. I appreciate your sentiments a great deal. I am very sure that you are well worth every penny that your clients pay you...and then some. It is so easy when reading words on a screen to take them not exactly how they were meant. Or to press send before you are 100% ready to do so. I still owe you a 6 pack from forever ago. I will give you a call the next time I am heading up the hill. Thank you again for what you do!

[troutless]

So funny if all of you go back to page 1 Koffler was asking how much should you tip for a stellar trip!!!

It is quite eye-opening for me how much vitriol and ill-concealed resentment this thread seems to have generated, but I suppose that's why there is a taboo around discussing money in public.

On the original subject: I think the least I've ever tipped is around 10%, the most, in the 20-25% range.

Low end: a walk-wade trip where the guide basically parked me in a single run that I hammered for all of the (short) fishing day. For all I know this might have been the right strategy -- we were near tidewater, on a rising tide -- but, he didn't really *do* anything except walk me in and watch me cast. Also, "show me again how you tied that knot" is not a phrase I generally want to hear on a guided fishing trip.

High end: steelhead guides with high-end speycasting expertise, working long hours, out of drift boats.

[bigfly]

I appreciate that comment, I am too flip at times...but mean no harm.
Nor would I give a % due......
The invite to walk water is there..

Jim

[johnsquires]

It's interesting to search this topic on the net and read the posts, the articles and responses to the articles. Pretty much exactly follows the pattern we've seen here.

I've noticed on the kind of trips I do (multi-day wilderness float trips) that most guides have either on their website or on their Gear List "What's Included" and "What's Not Included." Personally, when I see "gratuities" listed under "What's Not Included," I take that to mean the guide is expecting a tip for a job well done. So that "disclosure" may be helpful to those who prefer not to tip; they can look elsewhere.

My trips are priced so much lower than my competitors' prices that I basically don't make money, I just cover my expenses for being where I love to be, so the tips make up for all the hard work and expenses (planning and logistics, shipping, dehydrating, shopping, liability insurance, sat phone costs, freight, business and guide licenses, flies, leaders, etc., rental cars, lodging and food while not in the wilderness, the rowing, the pain in the butt of pumping water, the cooking, dishwashing, on and on and on. And I do realize this was my decision, and the jury is still out on the "turning fun into work deal.) I have a hard enough time getting clients as it is because so many folks are afraid to camp in the Alaskan wilderness, so I think if I raised my rates, it will be even harder to procure clients. I mention all this because not all guides perform the same functions, fit under the same umbrella.

I guess my feeling is there is no right or wrong answer - if as a guide you expect a tip for doing a good job, maybe you should let that be known, and if you are against the concept of tipping a fishing guide, maybe either let that be known before booking or try to book with a guide with higher rates or one who doesn't care if you tip. Because apparently, as has been proven here and on other sites, we're just not going to come to a consensus as to what is proper.

[Darian]

The quote in the title about sums it all up for me. Thanks for making that statement, johnsquires....

I retired some time ago and live on a fixed income. During this period, I learned that "taking care" of a guide usually means that the guide, in turn, will "take care" of you. Therefore tipping is important to a successful trip.

From one clients perspective, I like a list of charges on the guides/outfitters website that states whether gratuities are expected or not. That way I can decide whether I can afford a trip and plan for it. After all, a tip is part of the total cost of the trip for a potential client. The problem, for me, comes in when I'm forced to decide what is an appropriate tip (%). Unless I have some idea what a guide/outfitter expects, I'm always left with the feeling that I haven't done something correctly....

[bigfly]

When I was just starting out, I once declined a big tip from a client.
He was visibly offended....I never did that again...it's a gift from one to another.
There can be more to this tipping thing, than meets the eye.....

Jim

[Larry S]

How do you folks feel about "cow tipping?"
We all need to go fishing!
Best from Sun Diego,
Larry S

[cmcdhuibh]

I suppose you could always suggest paying it forward, if you feel uncomfortable about a clients tip if its inappropriate at the time.

[TyV]

I guess my feeling is there is no right or wrong answer - if as a guide you expect a tip for doing a good job, maybe you should let that be known, and if you are against the concept of tipping a fishing guide, maybe either let that be known before booking or try to book with a guide with higher rates or one who doesn't care if you tip. Because apparently, as has been proven here and on other sites, we're just not going to come to a consensus as to what is proper.

johnsquires...thank you so much for your post. I think that you summed up this thread and topic quite nicely. It is exactly the type of solutions and comments I was hoping for when I posted about something that troubled me. IF guides and clients alike adopted your approach and set expectations prior to trips...there wouldn't be any awkward moments or negative feelings.

My apologies to the original poster as this thread got seriously highjacked by my original comments. I have seen many of these types of discussions go sideways in a hurry. This had that potential and almost did. Thanks to most everyone for talking about a difficult subject and helping everyone sort through how they each feel about this topic. All in all...awesome!

[Wanderingblues]

My start point is usually 20%. I've never gone lower because, fortunately, I've never had a poor guide. I usually communicate my needs in advance- learn something new, hear a good story or two, and maybe put a fish in the net.

My favorite guide was on the Poudre. He called the night before and suggested a good craft brewery for dinner. Next day, his stream side lunch was legit, and he brought along a couple bottles of his own home brew IPA for sampling. We stayed out a good 2 hours longer than I ever thought we would, he improved my casting, and we caught a few fish. I tipped him well and later sent him a woodblock print I did of trout we caught. We still keep in touch.

[Jed Peters]

I've had this conversation with one of my best friends, who incidentally is considered pretty much undisputedly the best guide in my local area.

He always gets $60 from me, regardless of the day. I've also given him a hunski.

But that's him.

I've also had guys who basically half-ass it and get a half-assed tip. We're talking less than 10%.

Here's a guides costs on a $400 trip:

Gas: $50 (At least a tank on most norcal rivers, including his mileage from his house to the river, to the put in, back to his house.)
Shuttle: $20 (I've paid $25, but let's call it $20)
Flies, leaders: $20 (for the boat, let's just call this "actual use" and simply call it $20 even)
Lunch, snacks: $30 (for the client's food, not their own. This is a simple safeway sandwich, sodas, chips, maybe some peanuts cost)
Misc Costs: $20 (for the sake of argument, let's say wear and tear, boat costs, vehicle costs, tires, guide insurance, fishing license, equipment costs--amortized over, say, 2 years--which is the replacement time really)

Total Expenses (EXTREMELY CONSERVATIVE): $140

NET: $260 (again, for an independent guide, not paying out a shop or agency)

Hours for a summer float from a good guide (not including leaving their house): 5:30am at river WORKING to 8:30pm TAKE OUT. That's a 15 hour day. But this guide works extra hard. So let's say you fish in the winter, the guide has the boat IN THE RIVER by 5am, and out at 5pm. That's minimum 12 hours.

So, let's do the math:

$260 net divided by 12 hours = 21.66 dollars a hour.

This is AFTER the capital contribution of probably $30k is made (truck, boat, gear).

After tax? $15/hour take home. So that guide really sees only 180 bucks for the day. And no health insurance costs, retirement, etc taken out of that.

And you guys want "professional" guides? At less than 200 bucks a day?

Holy crap.

[Jed Peters]

Oh yeah, I should also point out that even when I fish with a guide that's a buddy I PAY THEIR FREIGHT....meaning of course I buy lunch, provide snacks, give money for gas, pay shuttles, access fees, etc.

It's what a "guest" does. It's called common courtesy and not being a leech.

[johnsquires]

So I did the following exercise:
I decided to try to figure out the occasions when I've used guides. As close as I can come, it has been around 20 to 25 times, but I'm sure (because I'm old) I'm forgetting some.

Then I tried to look at those occasions and asked myself if it was worth the money, if I was pleased with the guide, if I could have done just as well without the guide.

In retrospect, I can think of one time when I didn't care for a guide and maybe two instances where I think I could have done just as well without the guide.

I realize this exercise is not exactly on topic. But it was kind of fun to go back and think about this topic and I think the statistics are pretty revealing. I wonder if most guides did the same exercise, only regarding clients, how the figures would work out.

[ycflyfisher]

Oh yeah, I should also point out that even when I fish with a guide that's a buddy I PAY THEIR FREIGHT....meaning of course I buy lunch, provide snacks, give money for gas, pay shuttles, access fees, etc.

It's what a "guest" does. It's called common courtesy and not being a leech.

Since I'm the only one who mentioned that I've fished with guides, I feel inclinded to respond to this.

You're making a lot of assumptions here. I've just got some questions:

What if it wasn't the guide who was the one who had thousands of hours of stick time (both on the rod and the oars, knew where all the put-ins/take-outs were, etc) on the watershed in question?

Do you think the "guest" should expect the guide to cover the "freight costs" and maybe even provide a tip?

Or should the "guest" just treat their friends who happen to guide just like they would any other friends?

[Jed Peters]

should the "guest" just treat their friends who happen to guide just like they would any other friends?

This one.

If we are out fishing and we go fishing, we go fishing. Walk and wade, my water or theirs, etc.

If a guide buddy takes their boat, and their rig, etc...then like any friend I pay their freight. same as I do for a buddy who drives their car when we go skiing, or mountain biking, or uses their boat for wakeboarding...

[WinterrunRon]

Haven't read all the posts, but just the last few because I really can't believe this is the hottest topic on the site. I mean, who really cares, other than he who is receiving the tip, about the subject of tipping. You contract to pay for a service where you are a client, not a guest. You're quoted a price. You're obligated to pay the price, nothing more. Tip, don't tip, tip a little, tip a lot, do what you want, it's your money. Personally, if you sucked so bad that I don't tip you, you won't get another opportunity to recieve a tip from me. If you were awesome and added to the enjoyment of my day, I'll tip you and provide you with future business. In other words, I'll provide you with additional, voluntary, income, over and above that which I'm obligated to pay. If you don't like the amount I tipped, don't return my call next time... and best of luck to you.

You don't have to analize and amortize a guys business using Peachtree accounting software to justify he needs to be tipped. If your at a job and need more money, get a second job, work longer hours, change jobs, further your educaton, open your own business. That's what the rest of us do. Last thing I would do is rely on tips to make my world go round. If you feel compelled to tip, then tip. Service sucked, don't tip a penny. Why would anyone tip anyting for poor performance. What's the message you're trying to send with that?

To answer the original question, steller outings/performances typcially receive 20% from me. And anyone who bitches about recieving a 20% tip should have one's head examined!

[amoeba]

What's the going rate tip wise for a full day guided trip these days assuming it's a stellar trip?

You said for "a stellar trip" - which I would translate into fish of a lifetime (24"+ for rainbow trout), several of them, guide takes a great photo of it, is able to switch to dry flies when everybody else has ping pong balls and lead and is still able to put client on fish, prepares a lunch fit for royalty, etc.

In such situations, the expected tip would be on the order of $100 per client, or $200 over the initial cost of the trip (usually ~$350-450/day).