Depth Control

[Rmacneil656]

Hi All,
I am a bit bored at the office, and as always I am thinking about steelhead! Anyways I wanted to ask a question about depth control. Does anyone out there use a floating mow tip or a slower intermediate mow tip when casting heavy indurders? Then using leader length to control the depth at witch the fly rides?

I have a couple specific runs in mind on the Trinity, and was thinking about how to fish it more effectively next time I go up. There are two runs that I know to hold fish, they run about 3-4 feet deep and have some really nice boulders sitting in them. Anyways I was struggling to fish them effectively ( in my mind) with t-11. I was getting deep enough, however I encountered 2 problems: The run was fish able on the far side, buy the time I made a cast, mend and let my fly sink, I had missed some of the better water in the run as the swing really started. I also would hit the occasional boulder with my sink tip, messing up my swing and causing me to snag up ( and even when I got my fly back) and recast.

While on the drive home I was wondering: what if I fished my skagit line with a floating tip, a heavy, heavy, sink like a rock intruder and 4-5 feet of leader to more or less keep my fly at a dangle. This may alleviate the boulder issue, as if I hit a boulder the fly would likely slide around it rather than get dragged down into the crevice and snag. This would also sink quickly in the slot I'm thinking of, then I could more or less swim the fly out and around the boulders.

Anyone tried anything like this before, heavy flies instead of heavy tips?

[DAVID95670]

yes i have

but u made me a nympher

[cyama]

Although I am a complete spey rookie, I have swung flies on the single hander for many years. What I have learned is that if you want it to sink let out some line as it is swinging. If you know you are coming into some snags or shallow water you should strip in some line. I have found that fish will still hit even when the speed of the swing is not consistent. In fact I believe most fish will swim off as it is not natural to have a consistent speed.

[JasonB]

There is always more options, and variations to play with in terms of depth and control but I would have to say that the idea of casting "heavy, heavy, sink like a rock intruder" flies with a mono leader doesn't sound like any fun at all. What would probably make a far better alternative would be a super sparsely dressed fly (think featherwing for example), which as long as the current speed/line tension is minimal would sink pretty fast. Also depends if you're talking about fishing a slot "on the far side" where you have a big swath of slow water or eddy water between you and the faster water on the far side. That's a very tough combination to make work. If the currents are not so disparate you may be able to make things work by shifting your casting position and angle, probably meaning a longer cast and still feeding a bit of line into the swing.

Lastly, there really are some stretches of water that just aren't the most swing friendly. YMMV,
JB

[Rmacneil656]

There is always more options, and variations to play with in terms of depth and control but I would have to say that the idea of casting "heavy, heavy, sink like a rock intruder" flies with a mono leader doesn't sound like any fun at all. What would probably make a far better alternative would be a super sparsely dressed fly (think featherwing for example), which as long as the current speed/line tension is minimal would sink pretty fast. Also depends if you're talking about fishing a slot "on the far side" where you have a big swath of slow water or eddy water between you and the faster water on the far side. That's a very tough combination to make work. If the currents are not so disparate you may be able to make things work by shifting your casting position and angle, probably meaning a longer cast and still feeding a bit of line into the swing.

Lastly, there really are some stretches of water that just aren't the most swing friendly. YMMV,
JB

Non friendly swing water is some of my favorite water to fish lol, at least when I know / believe fish are there!

The fly I am working on is a tune fly w metal tube and heavy eyes, it is tied relatively sparse, so it should sink well. In fact, I think I am going to tie them even heavier. I'm not worried about loosing flies. I loose a lot of flies when my sink tip dredges the bottom and my fly gets pinned under a rock. If my fly is bouncing on the bottom, usually it doesn't hang up.

As far as casting goes: I think catching fish is more fun than casting. I also don't plan on booming out 70 foot casts. I'm looking at runs where the fish are only 20-25 feet out, roughly twice the distance of my rod. I'm also not going to be casting such a heavy fly all day. Just thinking about a few select runs. Just wondering about the difference between two setups : 10ft t14 with an unweighted fly or semi weighted fly or some sort of floating tip or intermediate tip (with the equivalent grain weight of t14 to turn over the fly) but with 4 -5 feet of leader so it more or less dangles.

My other thought about a similar situation was in relation to soft current seams. Once a heavy sink tip is applied the fly will enter the seam and the sink tip will keep sinking, eventually dragging you into the bottom. I saw Joe Rotter of Reds fly shop mention in a video that " both trout and steelhead will hit a rising fly quite well". So based on that assumption when a sink tip enters a current seam or soft piece of water, it will continue to sink during the hang down, witch is the opposite of what I would like to happen. I want my fly to hover or even rise. If I were to not use a sink tip in a current seam, and use a heavier fly, I am wondering if I could achieve this desired effect. Fly would sink quickly, but once under tension, it should rise & swing. and hopefully by the hang down, it will just hover off of the bottom, almost being suspended by my floating tip instead of being drug down by my sink tip.


*** as a disclaimer I am not trying to prove right / wrong any theories, nor am I trying to create an one situation works for all situations, I was just thinking of trying a floating tip w heavy fly vs sinking tip w unweighted fly ***

[TaylerW]

It is all about fly speed, and the setup for your swing post cast. To get a deep swing, get your line as straight as possible, and try to keep "kick" out of the end. Track your swing with your rod tip.

[JasonB]

I think I get what you're aiming at a bit clearer now; from the sounds of it you're looking at essentially dead drifting the fly through? I hear you on finding enjoyment in fishing more complex and/or challenging water, and certainly didn't mean to imply that you were wasting time there; just that some of the more standard techniques of swinging may lead to frustration. Loosing flies is part of the game sometimes too, just went through a shocking pile of them in the last few days trying to swing through a run of varying depths and sprinkled with submerged willows where the currents started to mellow a little. Oh well, more time at the vise in prep for the next trip...

As for the specifics of what you're describing, I am sure that you can do it just as you're detailing, and more importantly I am sure that you would catch fish if you kept at it. There are a few issues that I personally would wish to address if I were looking at trying to do what you're describing:
-very heavy flies have the tendency to look kind of "dead" on a dead drift, and to me the intruder type flies really really shine with how "alive" they look when swinging somewhat under tension. So from a confidence standpoint alone I think I would likely opt for a different fly for this purpose.

-with the short leader length that you're describing I am not sure that there would be much of a gain in depth at all, so I would lean towards a much longer leader personally. The only caveat there is that I would dread casting a super heavy fly on a longer leader, so I'd still prefer a fly more along the lines of say an "orange heron" or perhaps a "winters hope" etc

-depending on how heavy the currents are, and how much line tension you have, it is possible for even a very heavy fly to be pulled right up to the surface. So the real questions would still be what kind of line management would be needed, and how can that be facilitated.

Cheers,
JB

[Dan Harrison]

Hi All,
I am a bit bored at the office, and as always I am thinking about steelhead! Anyways I wanted to ask a question about depth control. Does anyone out there use a floating mow tip or a slower intermediate mow tip when casting heavy indurders? Then using leader length to control the depth at witch the fly rides?

I have a couple specific runs in mind on the Trinity, and was thinking about how to fish it more effectively next time I go up. There are two runs that I know to hold fish, they run about 3-4 feet deep and have some really nice boulders sitting in them. Anyways I was struggling to fish them effectively ( in my mind) with t-11. I was getting deep enough, however I encountered 2 problems: The run was fish able on the far side, buy the time I made a cast, mend and let my fly sink, I had missed some of the better water in the run as the swing really started. I also would hit the occasional boulder with my sink tip, messing up my swing and causing me to snag up ( and even when I got my fly back) and recast.

While on the drive home I was wondering: what if I fished my skagit line with a floating tip, a heavy, heavy, sink like a rock intruder and 4-5 feet of leader to more or less keep my fly at a dangle. This may alleviate the boulder issue, as if I hit a boulder the fly would likely slide around it rather than get dragged down into the crevice and snag. This would also sink quickly in the slot I'm thinking of, then I could more or less swim the fly out and around the boulders.

Anyone tried anything like this before, heavy flies instead of heavy tips?


Think you have the right idea. If I had a run as you describe and I use a floating line, floating tip, 9ft of Mono, weight fly. Shorter casts and a more target oriented approach. Sounds like you know where those steelhead are laying. I would cast up stream and mend up stream as my fly sank. I would continue to do so until my fly was in the target zone then hold line tight. Fly will swing up and away from lurking steelhead and game on. Steelhead and trout love a fly moving up in the water colum. This article has the right idea. http://midcurrent.com/techniques/beyond-the-swing/

[Rmacneil656]

Sounds like you know where those steelhead are laying.

I like to think I know where they are laying :-). In this run there is really no pool above it, just deep fast section of water on the far bank with a small seam into shallow water. The water is slow underneath, and it transitions into a the bouldery tailout that makes a great spot for fish to sit, especially traveling fish ( that are more likely to strike out of aggression) ! My buddy stuck a fish in that run last time I was up there, and it reminded me of another run where I had previously swung up a fish. He was fishing a heavy fly with 10ft of t-11. But when I was watching him fish, it was the fly that was getting him down, not the tip, I could see the tip riding just under the surface. But as he had the line come tight I imagine exactly what you had described above: slightly rising fly right into a fish sitting in front of a rock. Game on....

Think next time I go out I'll keep this in mind and give it a shot. Worst thing that could happen is not getting a grab or loosing a fly ( sounds like every other run I fish!)

[Larry S]

Rmac,
George Daniel has some very helpful videos:
here's one on getting the fly low in the water column while nymphing.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9XlK3Q5mcU
Best,
Larry S

[Rmacneil656]

Rmac,
George Daniel has some very helpful videos:
here's one on getting the fly low in the water column while nymphing.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9XlK3Q5mcU
Best,
Larry S

Hi Larry,
Not quite applicable for spey. Was more along the lines of swinging flies.

discussion is more or less: extra heavy fly on a floating line vs heavy sink tip an an unweighted fly or lightly weighted fly.

[TaylerW]

Long leader with a floating line and a worm weight is pretty frosty

[Rmacneil656]

Long leader with a floating line and a worm weight is pretty frosty
Hey Tayler,
Thats what I was thinking. I bought some tungsten worm weights to put in front of a couple flies if I want to get down in some fast/ bouldery runs that i want to pick a part if I believe fish are there, the boulders will cause me to hang up with a sink tip. I have a floating tip for my skagit, was thinking about a 5 foot leader with a tungsten weight should get me down 3-4 feet, then I'll swing the fly up in front of individual boulders and kind of pick the run apart. It may work, it may not but I'll find out :-).

[smokeater]

A few years back I tried fishing a fairly heavy intruder type fly on a scandi with a 5 ips versileader with roughly 4-5 feet of Tippett maybe more which gave me the equivalent of like a 15' leader. Basically I made my cast, then fed slack to allow it to drop into whatever slot or hole I thought was looking super fishy, then let it swing through and RISE up out of the hole. They were absolutely clobbering it on the rise kind of near the dangle point. So I wasn't really fishing it to swing in towards the bank, I was setting myself up so that I could almost get it to hang in the strike zone. That week I think it was just the right combo of color/size/action and the conditions were just right. Super hot aggressive wild fish were all over it. I haven't really been able to duplicate that same magic since but I got the inspiration to try it after seeing Scott Howell do something similar using an AFS with long leader and heavy fly. This was a few years back when we actually had water that was deep and somewhat fast.

So yes, I've tried it and it can be very effective.

Oh and I was using the scandi simply because I liked casting it more than my Skagit and the versileader to help move the heavier fly.

[Rmacneil656]

So yes, I've tried it and it can be very effective.

Oh and I was using the scandi simply because I liked casting it more than my Skagit and the versileader to help move the heavier fly.

Good god, can't imagine casting a heavy fly on my scandi! Definitely not knocking it, but I love my skagit lines. I even have floating tips for fishing it like a scandi. Love the way they load. I have the new Skagit max long. 28 ft + a ten foot tip makes it more or less the legnth of my scandi. It wont turn over as easy as my skagit short because 525/20ft =26.25 grains/foot vs 525/28 = 18.75 grains/ft. But what it lacks for grains / foot it makes up in line speed.

But I totally see why your method had worked. I learned when I use to nymph that fish will often take a fly presented to slow over too fast. More or less if you could dangle it in front of them they had plenty of time for instinct to kick in and grab the fly.

But not to compare these methods to gear guys, but its almost like a plug method ( which we all cannot deny works). If you dangle it in front of them the pattern will be more "intrusive" and they will be likely to strike out of aggression.

[Blueracer]

yes i have

but u made me a nympher

No surprise.