Little truckee river question

[RickyOrtiz]

So thinking bout heading up there tomorrow afternoon. I've never fished it before and hear the flows are high right now. My questions is what are the normal flows, and should I wait till they come back down to normal? If so I'll hit the truckee.

[bigfly]

Ricky, we don't post a lot about this little water, due to overpressure.
The LT is running higher than the Big T near TC.
250+ is a very nice flow, and allows the fish to spread out a bit. (If you can fish the T well, then these flows are sweet.)
Instead of shooting fish in a barrel at lower flows.
Last Summer, they held the flows to 40 cfs..........awful. I think DFW should have closed the water............
Any way......now is good. A few risers, but mostly nymphing.
Weekdays best......small flies, light tippet, and bring some sneak. These fish are hip.....and don't set too hard.....
Send me a PM if you need more info.

Jim

[Dan LeCount]

The modern era of social media is unforgiving on small water and rivers in general. Fishing pressure seems to come in heavy waves depending on what watershed is in vogue.

[Ralph]

I was on the LT yesterday (Friday). Thought I'd sneak in before the seasonal human hatch started. Guess with the drought, humans along with the bugs are hatching a bit early. I wish with all my heart they would close that gem during off season, close it to guides, and close it when flows drop below 50 cfs. In Montana it would be a done deal. I've really grown to love their refreshing style of fisheries management where the fish comes first.

[bigfly]

Ralph, I'm with you on the winter closure.
I don't guide it much, but could agree on a per day number of guides. Or perhaps a no guide day, or two.
Flows should be a steady 100cfs, with a big flush early season.
If we looked out for fish.......humans would benefit as well....and I don't mean more fishing.
Treating everything like a commodity, reduces our value as humans.

Jim

[Tony Buzolich]

This morning on the Bob Simms Outdoor Show (ch. 1530) they were talking about how F&G just planted the Little Truckee and how good the fishing was. It's as if they were telling every fly guy in Sacramento where to go fish for the next few weeks.

I never thought about how small that little river really is because I never fished it much even when we lived up there. I remember there were several developed pull outs and parking areas along the road almost like they have at Putah Creek.
Tony

[bigfly]

Tony, if you didn't like the PR on the radio, and you know it's a small water, should you have posted too?
This is akin to calling an air strike on your own position. Except, you don't live here......
I've posted hundreds of times, and mentioned the LT about 3-4 times, and felt that was too much.

Go fish the T if you want to get some game.........
Otherwise, it's cheaper to buy them at the supermarket.........hatchery fish fight like they're on ice anyway.....
Wouldn't you rather fight a fish without fear, and more game than you brought?
Yesterday, on the T, we had a fish on that wouldn't come to hand.........read as huge/smart......and satisfying....
I say, "the harder the fish/fishing, the better you'll get."

Jim

[Ralph]

This morning on the Bob Simms Outdoor Show (ch. 1530) they were talking about how F&G just planted the Little Truckee and how good the fishing was. It's as if they were telling every fly guy in Sacramento where to go fish for the next few weeks.

I never thought about how small that little river really is because I never fished it much even when we lived up there. I remember there were several developed pull outs and parking areas along the road almost like they have at Putah Creek.
Tony
DF&W plants the LT upstream of hwy 89 only. Different crowd, different ball game. Putah Creek is a much better place to fish.

[bigfly]

Ralph, perfect.....

I heard they were going to plant LCTs in Perazzo meadows and into cold stream section below Weber Lake.
Restoration done?
Could this be that?

[John Sv]

No, that is several years out. Actually they coulda put lcts in there for all I know, but this isn't the project you and I were talking about at fishmas eve. That said the lt in perazzo looked great today.

[Dan LeCount]

Most of Thursday I was one of 2 cars on the LT. There were roughly 10 cars along Glenshire when I drove past that evening.(and Im pretty sure only 1 or 2 were dog walkers) Similar water volume and similar length of river (4 miles or so.) Much of the last few months its been like this. Should Glenshire be closed to guiding? It receives equal if not more pressure most days. Is guiding the cause of the increased pressure? All the major waters up here are heavily pressured at times now. It just seems like one or the other is more in vogue at one time or another. Example- Last year one of Gilligans clients got a really big brown. The next weekend I drove down below Hirschdale on the dirt road and there were roughly a dozen cars. Every pull out had a car until we got to the old train bridge at the end. I found this pretty funny since I knew the fish was from Nevada, but many people identify Gill with his house in "the Hirsch." Another example- Last season after the video "The Clinic" was released, there were people parked all up and down where they had held the clinic a few days before. And this is not at all a slight against Gill and Doug O, They're rad dudes and great to fish and guide with and if I was so inclined to hire a guide, they'd be one of my first choices. Ive also had similar situations happen myself as well. After telling someone I had a awesome day on the green drakes on the river by myself, before the week is over that same stretch is crawling with a dozen guys.

I think its mostly a problem with the internet and how effective our communication is now and how quickly people react or use it. As soon as people see a large fish/good fishing they charge out and try to find that exact spot and try to catch that fish, instead of trying to explore a new spot and a new fish. Like if someone tells a buddy that he did good with march browns along Glenshire, he tells his buddy who tells his buddy who goes there, he catches fish, takes pictures and posts them on instagram, his buddy sees those pics then he tells his fishing club. Next weekend 10 people are cutting each other off and trying to fish the same half mile of water. I really have no idea whats the best solution for any of this other then trying to instill in people a passion for exploring new waters and exploring the backcountry.

[bigfly]

Dan, you are totally correct....and I don't often say that.;) Although I haven't heard about overcrowding on the T....
One way to catch more fish.....don't fish where everybody else is fishing.
I have a don't ask/don't tell policy.....Don't ask me, and I won't tell you, on the internet.
I'm not likely to tell which rock to stand on, or fly to buy.
A movie isn't in the making.......
And, I admire the guy who gets his Topo out and tracks them down.
This sport should have a little studying involved, not just the score......

Jim

[James W]

I've heard this problem described in SoCal as "hotspotting".
Are we headed to a time when you simply don't post a fishing report?
Perhaps that's best.
I don't know . . .

[bigfly]

With the price of gasoline I think it's easier to go on-line before you drive.
I think, in the race to be fish Hero's, it's not going to let up until egos and fishermen and maybe fish, are all gone......
Of course, that's the way it been throughout history.
My goal, is to let you know they are here, if you have the game to catch them.
(And maybe help, if you need to develop the game.)
Mostly, because I remember when folks here thought the T wasn't worth their time......including me.
The LT is too small to even publicize. 3 miles of LT versus 30 of the T.
And I crop my photos, when I post them.....I would feel bad (for the fish), if every body went to the same spot to fish because of me....
If it turns out I'm giving too much away.....I'll stop.
Treat'em nice.
Hope you are getting out....
Jim

[Ralph]

Is guiding the cause of the increased pressure?

No, but there has to be some fair and equitable way to limit the pressure on the LT, especially mid summer and spawning season. One guide generally represents three people on the water (albeit 2 rods). If, for example, Tuesday and Thursday were guide-free days, it would take some significant heat off those fish, not only because of fewer rods, but fewer EFFECTIVE rods. I'm not too concerned about the social impact of crowded fishing because, as Jim points out, those who want solitude can find it without undue effort. The trout don't have that choice.

I totally hear you about the internet. It's ridiculous how a fish can be caught, photographed and uploaded before it's released. I recently "unfriended" a guide (who is a friend) from my FB page after receiving near real-time images of every shad he was catching with his clients. I guess they call that advertising, but I'm not in the market for a shad guide.

[Dan LeCount]

Personally I think a winter closure on the LT would probably be a good idea. With winters like this one the fish don't get much of a rest. A winter closure would somewhat cut back the Clownshoes beating on the trouts head when they're spawning too(especially with the rainbows.)

As far as pics, every guide has his or her way of promotion and if they're excited and want to share photos, good for them. Taking lots of pictures is sensible and is usually good for business. Personally I should probably take more pictures of guide clients with the big camera. I usually don't since almost every client I've had for the last few years has had a smart phone with a pretty good camera, so if they want pics we usually shoot them with the phone and I leave the big Nikon at home. I give them some coaching on how to hold the fish and take a good hero shot if they need. I usually give them some insight with nature shots if they need any. I keep some plastic bags around so they don't have to worry so much about dunkings. It works pretty well for me and we haven't lost a phone yet.

I think the big issue is the need to copy everything a person does to catch a big fish. What they used, where they did it. It all goes a bit far sometimes. I think every guide up here rigs somewhat differently. We sometimes fish the same stretches but we all seem to have different "favorites". We all catch fish and get others into fish, without copying what someone else is doing. We develop what works by fishing ourselves or vicariously through a client. The emulation thing gets a bit weird at times for some people. I remember Andy B used to have people recognize his car all the time and follow him wherever he went fishing. He called them "the Stream Stalkers." I knew Andy liked peace and quiet on the river and it was kind of a bummer for him at times. Truthfully there's big fish all over the place up here if you really look, and you can catch them a lot of different ways. The most successful anglers I've met are the ones that develop more independent, strategic thought and try to pay attention to their surroundings and stay dedicated.

[Ralph]

Speaking of hero shots. Last night at Bill Lowe's birthday party a friend of ours recounted how he was taking the hero shot of his client and was so focused on the fish he didn't notice that Bill had snuck in twenty feet behind the client, had dropped his pants and was standing wide legged with his johnson hanging long. Kind of captured the moment. Classic Bill. They'll never make another one. Love him.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

I've been following this thread. Below is an excerpt to an individual who requested I provide his business with an on-line, weekly report on the LT. I refused. It was written and e-noted in February 2014. It pretty well expresses my opinions about what should be done on the LT.

Personally I do feel that guides are an issue on the LT. IMO, self-regulation hasn't seemed to work.

"Thanks for asking about my reporting on the Little Truckee. But I respectively decline; being the wrong person to publicize the LT via an on-line report. Reason being…

During the last 4-5 years I’ve been a very high-profile proponent of minimizing guide activity on the LT below Stampede dam and having it closed to “winter” fishing. Simply, there is too much impact on this small stream’s fishery. IMO the biggest impact is guides, plus the trout need a break from year-round pressure. The Tahoe National Forest’s Truckee Ranger district and a few CA D of W personnel are aware of my opinions.

I’d like to see the CA F & W mandate no commercial guiding on the LT 4-8 days per month. This, IMO, is concurrent with the Public Trust Doctrine. Locals and visiting fly anglers who do not have the inclination nor the funding to hire a professional guide do not fish the LT because it is too crowded; again because of too many guides. Jon Baiocchi is one of the few guides in this area who agrees with me on the aforementioned.

Here are my priorities for any public fishery: The health of the fishery come first, DIY fly-anglers come second and commercial guiding a very distant third.

Suffice it to say that most guides in this area are not happy with my thinking and lobbying."

Frank R. Pisciotta

[Doug O]

I agree that the Little Truckee should have closures. It would make sense to close it to all angling in the winter, and in the spring when the rainbows are spawning, and again in the fall when the browns are spawning. The situation on the Little Truckee has been out of line for years now. In the mid 1970's along with some other concerned conservationist I helped plant the willows that are still growing on the banks of the Little Truckee. We saw things get much better especially after the no bait regulations were in effect, special thanks to Ralph Cutter. Again, I believe new legislation should be considered.

[Dan LeCount]

I’d like to see the CA F & W mandate no commercial guiding on the LT 4-8 days per month. This, IMO, is concurrent with the Public Trust Doctrine. Locals and visiting fly anglers who do not have the inclination nor the funding to hire a professional guide do not fish the LT because it is too crowded; again because of too many guides. Jon Baiocchi is one of the few guides in this area who agrees with me on the aforementioned.

Here are my priorities for any public fishery: The health of the fishery come first, DIY fly-anglers come second and commercial guiding a very distant third.

Suffice it to say that most guides in this area are not happy with my thinking and lobbying."[/COLOR]

Frank R. Pisciotta


Not to speak for other people Frank, but I think most if not all the guides in the area would be fine with more stringent regulations. I don't know who would enforce it, but I think we can all agree that protecting the fishery should be the priority for sure, whether the LT, the Big T or any other water.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

Dan----I was unaware that "....most, if not all guides..." would be receptive to more restrictive regulations and a winter closure on the LT. Why haven't they been vocal about it? My guess is that they don't want to "ruffle feathers".

Most anglers I speak with are for such and I've not received a lot of high-profile peer support from guides who legally operate on the LT via a USFS permit. As I've mentioned in my previous post, I've taken a lot of heat about my outspoken opinions the last several years.

I’ve actually mentioned my opinions on the LT to a paid staffer of a fishery conservation group. I was informed that the guides should be asked first. I was befuddled with the reply, because IMO, the guides are the problem…the fox guarding the henhouse.

Self-regulation has not worked. And yes, enforcement or lack thereof would be the real question.

You are on the Board of Directors of the local TU chapter; how does the local chapter suggest that concerned anglers proceed?

Frank R. Pisciotta

[bigfly]

I'm glad everybody is talking......
But Ricky only wanted fishing info......

Jim

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

BF---True.

But it slowly morphed into other matters related to the Truckee area and specifically the LT. Thereafter, I felt I was entitled to comment.

If anyone wants to talk to me about my opinions; please call me at 530-587-7333....if not in, leave a voice-mail and I'll return the call. I'm an inept "hunt & peck" typist. I challenge to all the people who talk the walk that it is time to walk the talk.

I'm spending to much time on this. I'm not guiding today, so I'm going fishing....the timing for an excursion has arrived.

Frank R. Pisciotta

[Dan LeCount]

Frank, I appreciate your concern with our efforts at the Truckee TU. One of our main programs we've been working on for almost 6 years has been a habitat restoration program for the LT. One of its main purposes is developing more habitat in the lower meadow, hopefully dispersing angling pressure from the top parking lot. We have thousands of dollars and man hours put into this program. We're hopefully going to break ground this fall or next. We just made some decent headway when it was officially announced Stampede reservoir is having a dam heightening project that will be clearing out some trees. It sounds like they will be giving us those trees to be used in the lower meadow. Before it was looking like we were going to have to rent a helicopter to bring in dead trees from the hillside in order to have minimum impact on the meadow. This is one of a long list of programs we volunteer for in our spare time. (except for the paid staffer Dave Lass of course) Again, I appreciate your concern and the next time we hold our board meeting I'll make sure to send you the info of when and where and you can come down and be involved. We can always use more people.

Winter closures- When we had big winters the road was snowed in and served as an angling buffer. This issue has come more to the forefront the last couple seasons with the exceptionally low water years. I'm not sure if we talked about this, but I've talked to quite a few guides in the area about this; Brian Slusser, Jim Landis, Dave Stanley and some others and the consensus has been winter closure would probably be very beneficial to the fish. I'm sorry if I hadn't been more vocal about this, but you've met me and my personality is not as outspoken as yours Frank. Maybe you can loan me some of that Italian spirit of yours?

Day closures- If we did closing the river on certain days, I think closing it off to all angling would probably be more sensible then just closing it off to guides. It would be easier to enforce and more importantly It would have a greater beneficial impact for the fish. A dedicated local can apply much more pressure on the fish then a guide teaching a few tourists how to roll-cast. I fish the LT a handful of times every year but I guide it probably 30+ days a year. Its quite a bit different when I fish it compared to when I guide it and I don't consider myself to be a great angler. Knowledgeable, maybe, but I'm clumsy, have mediocre reflexes and I don't see all that great compared to others. The other side of the coin, clients are more likely to break fish off and don't handle fish as well as more seasoned folks, even when instructed since they're still learning. Its definitely a trade off. Personally I'd hold off on day closures until we see the impact the stream improvements have but I think a winter closure is a no-brainer.

Moving forward - I hear you're the president of the local angling club, the TTFF. I used to be on the board and I know there's some very good folks over there. Have you asked the opinion of the club members? How do they feel about winter closures and possible day closures? I was somewhat involved in making some of the local waters artificial only with you and Joe and others, and I'd assume we'd go the same route for closure by petitioning the DF&W. Maybe we can talk about this in person at the TTFF meeting this week and bring our 2 groups together. Possibly try to fulfill the wishes of our memberships and of course try to help out the fishes.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

Dan, et al---I’m glad to see that others are coming around to thinking, minimally, that the LT should be closed to angling during the winter. A reduction on guide usage is still an issue to be considered.

The hope is that both the local TU chapter #103 and the Tahoe-Truckee Fly Fishers can work collaboratively to preserve, sustain and enhance the local fisheries.

For you younger folks who have the wherewithal and stamina to lobby for special regulations; I can offer my advice. I have experience on how to go about getting things done and navigate the labyrinth and hoops one has go through to bring important fishery regulations to fruition.

Now, we need someone to step-up and take the lead.

Frank R. Pisciotta

[Bull_Dog]

Guides are not the problem on the Little Truckee and never have been. Two of the guides in the Truckee area do 80 +% of their trips on the L.T. but that is not even a problem. Most of the fishermen on the L.T. are not guides but either anglers who do not get around real well and have problems wading the Truckee or anglers who have been to the Truckee and not done very well and thought the Little Truckee would be a good change of pace. The population of anglers in the area has increased 10 fold in the last 10 years and the Little Truckee will always be crowded now regardless of if the angler has paid for help or is fishing on his own. Either should be entitled to fish there equally.

[Bob G]

I have appreciated and enjoyed the productive dialog, insight, and analysis that Jim, Dan, Ralph, Frank, and Doug have provided.

Thank You, Bob

[Jake O]

@Rob Anderson (bulldog), there is not a single educated person between Utah and the Pacific Ocean who believes a word that comes out of your mouth. This post is a perfect example of your spew. The area population has grown 7% (not 1,000%) and any fool can guess that they are not all anglers who fall on the LT as a last resort because they are cripples or inept . You are a lone wolf among those of us who actually want to improve and protect the fishery and not simply treat it as a cash register. You do NOT represent us and don't pretend to.

Preserved for prosperity. Popcorn ready

[Ralph]

Rob, I owe you an apology. I have to admit my blood boils when your name comes up because of the grief you inflicted on my close friend Dave Stanley. That said, I should have waited to cool down before responding to your post. ~Ralph

[Slobow]

I am surprised that so many of you continue to get so worked up on the internet. Its like some of you just found the internet?? Of course it hurts when you favorite river or honey hole mallard spot is posted on the internet but this has happened for 10+ years. Its only going to get worse and no way to keep the guy who likes to post pics with the perfect background and gps coordinates listed on his photo. Don't let the internet create division between us anglers/hunters as we should stand together to protect our passions despite our different views. Until you start paying for a private forum to exchange reports and ideas we will all have to deal with "loose lips sink ships" mentality.

[Bob G]

Ralph -

In an attempt to objectify your assessment and comments describing Bull_Dog, those fly fishers that I know and respect in the Tahoe/Reno area describe Rob just like you did in your post.

While your apology was obviously positve, I have a suggestion. It might be helpful to those on this Board who do not know Rob's history, that any time Rob posts in the future if you simply copy and insert your comments.

Thank you for caring enough to comment!

Bob