spey/switch fishing the Yuba?

[cyama]

The only two people I have seen fishing the Yuba with a spey rod are Ryan Miller and Andy Guibord. Having just picked up a 5 wt switch I was just wondering if anyone else out there has some setup recommendations. Ryan used to swing small leaches at the top of some of the riffles. I was using a scandi line with a fast sink polyleader and landed my first fish on the swing with the 5 wt. It was pretty small, but was excited considering visibility was only about a foot. I am thinking the clear intermediate polyleader would be great for swinging soft hackles during the march brown and hydropsyche hatches. Also wondering about setups when the flows are 1500 to 3000 cfs..

Also wondering about the new Rio Switch Chucker. Is that line supposed to be a line between a scandi and a skagit. Can a 5wt switch chucker throw 10' of T8. Hopefully the Rio wizard Aaron can answer this one...

[bigfly]

cyama, you didn't say which rod....makes a difference.
I swing a 5wt spey, and a 6wt switch...Sage.
Keeping it simple, I like two carry two spools.
1 skagit with a line rated two up, and a wallet full of leaders.
1 Atlantic/steelhead taper, line rated three up, .
With this setup I can swing, Dredge with a bobber, and should the fates allow, fish a dry!
I fish this set-up on the Truckee as well, 75% of the time. Hard to go back to the short rods.....
Many ways to skin the cat, I'm sure others will weigh in.
Enjoy your big stick....hope this helped.

Jim

[cyama]

Thanks for the info Jim. The rod is a TFO Deer Creek 11 foot 5 wt. I ordered a Rio Skagit Max Short 350 to see if I can cast some t-8. You fish a spey rod 75% of the time? Which rod and setup do you use for streamers? Say something on the bigger side like a sculpin?
Is there snow on the ground in Truckee or did it melt off...

[Smitty Fish]

Hello , I use a TFO 11 ft 6 wt on the Yuba 100% . I throw a airflow scandi & rage line most of the time
On the Yuba. Every ounce in a while I'll use a 400 grain rio flight. Mostly swinging soft hackles.

[flyguy1]

Try an airflo rage. I use a rage on my Echo TR 5wt. It handles at 10' super extra fast poly tip with ease. I had trouble throwing that tip using a scandi head.

Scott K

[cyama]

I guess that is the source of the confusion. There are so many leaders out there that it becomes confusing. So I bought an Airflo Polyleader Salmon/Steelhead 10 ft fast sink. The leader out of the package has 5 feet of sink tip. Which I am assuming you add 5 feet of tippet to make it ten feet. It worked pretty good at 700 cfs. I took off the polyleader and just ran straight mono at about 10 feet to cast some muddlers. It was way easier to snake roll and double spey. Then I put 5 feet of T-8 and it was very hard to cast with a scandi head. I am guessing at that point I should have switched to a skagit head. I guess I am wondering if there is a website that shows progression of leaders. Is 7.5 feet of T-11 the same as 10 feet of T-8??? Also do most people start off with a scandi head and a light leader and progress to a skagit head with heavy leader??

[troutless]

A few thoughts.

First, an Airflo polyleader labeled 10ft fast sink should have 10ft of sink material. If not you got the wrong leader, somehow.

The fundamental principle of tip selection is the relation of mass to mass. A grain scale, or, careful reading of fly line specs, will serve you well. Much of what you will read, and be told in fly shops, about tips, is wrong, strictly speaking. Always come back to the mass principle. Physics rules the roost.

It takes mass to turn over mass. If you have more mass density downstream than upstream you will have problems. For example, a 5wt Rio 10ft floating tip, as would form the end of a typical scandi head, is 55gr, or, about 5.5 gr/foot, on average (more at the back, less at the front). T-8 is 8gr/ft. Not a good combination. Polyleaders, despite being advertised as being for scandi heads, do vary in weight. An Airflo extra-super-fast-sinking is close in weight to T-8, doesn't work well on light-weight scandi heads.

Leaders are not tips. A tip is the end of your fly line. Around these parts scandi heads are often, but not always, sold as complete lines, meaning, belly + floating tip, integrated. T- material is designed as a "tip". For typical weight lines, put one on the end of a scandi, you now have two tips, which doesn't really make sense if you think about it. More critically you do not have the required mass ratio. Skagit heads are usually, but not always, sold as bellies, you add a tip to complete the line. Not a leader, unless your skagit head is so light (e.g., 4-5wt) that the required tip and intended polyleader (e.g. extra-super-fast-sinking) are basically equivalent. Otherwise the mass ratio will be TOO large and you will have anchor issues and other casting funkiness.

At a given grain weight, a skagit head will turn over more mass than a full scandi line. This reflects mostly (but not entirely) the convention of weighing the belly of the skagit but the full length of the scandi, in other words, for a given grain weight, the skagit head has more weight at the tip. So, yes, most people will use a skagit-type system for heavier tips and heavier flies, relatively speaking. That does not mean any skagit head can turn over any heavy tip any more than it means any scandi head can turn over any scandi leader, or, for that matter, that no scandi head can turn over heavy tips. It's a relative thing.

There is no "chart" of tip/leader "equivalences". Both length and weight matter. Longer rods make it easier to throw longer tips, heavier rods, heavier tips. Depending on your casting skill, a light but very long tip may be more trouble on a short stout rod than a short but very heavy tip.

All of this is problematic when you are trying to throw big flies to small fish and/or you are at the extreme light end of the spey rod weight classes. You cannot throw really heavy tips on an ultralight spey, and without heavy tips, you will struggle to spey cast big flies. Either you use a rod that is "big" for the fish, or go down in fly size. There is no squaring that circle.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I fished with Mike McCune there and he used a 4 weight Switch rod with a Skagit Short with a fast sink tip with around 4-6 feet of leader to around 1X with an olive rabbit strip fly.

Rob Kempton was the first person I heard was swinging a sink tip with a #8/10 olive BH marabou leech.

Others like Rich Plath who fishes the Lower Yuba River as much as anyone swings about size #8/10 wooly buggers.

Jason Hartwick said that any olive or black small rabbit or marabou leech on a sink tip should work fine.

During a caddis emergence you could swing a caddis emerger, size 14 on 2-3x in the surface?

30 years ago Mike McCune use to swing soft hackles on a floating line on the Lower Yuba River.

About 30 years ago, one day on the Lower Yuba, above the 20 bridge, I was using a 9'6" #7 line rod with a sink tip swinging a black leech. I caught two of the hottest trout of my life. They hit really hard and took out lots of line. One was over 20 inches and the other just under that.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________

Story #29A


Almost 40 years ago, in the drought late 1970s, Joe Patterson (Cortland Line Rep) and Wally Westlake ( baseball legand) actually discovered the great wild Rainbow trout fisheries (and Steelhead) on the Lower Yuba River near the Hwy 20 Bridge. I think it was early spring time with low water and lots of hatches.

Joe came to my shop and told us about it. We all went there and that is how we found out about it.

Al Perryman, Ed Letrell, Mike Ziem, my brother Dick, Bob Long, Joe Shirshac, my fishing partner Mel Jeffs, Gordon Langenback, and some others all enjoyed that river, thanks to Joe and Wally.

That early spring in low water Ed Letrell caught what was probably a Steelhead about 7 pounds on a #8 yellow Humpy, which probably looked like the Skwala?


.

[DAVID95670]

I have a 5116 switch. Currently only a ishort skagit for it.

I want a dry line for swinging and nymphing and dry/sub surface dead drifted.

I do not do a lot of nymphing.

I guess I need a long rear taper with Meat to mend, and a reasonable front taper for getting soft hackles out there and also a bobber set up.

James mentioned a Atlantic dry line.

I have a skagit max and rage for my 6 and 7 wt speys. Love these lines.


How would a rio short scandi work? Thoughts experiences?

I will fish it on yuba primarily, also American.

Troutless had some excellent points which in the last three weeks I have been applying to my skagit set ups.

Now what is to be done for a floating line? Or do I get a skagit max short and call it a day


So skagit? Or scandi? Or back to the old long atlantic lines

[Hogan Brown]

I have two "switch" set ups set up to fish the Yuba and Feather that I carry in my boat when fishing dictates or clients want to fish them.
Echo SR 10'10" and a Scott L2H 11' 6wt. I fish both the Airflo rage compact and the skagit switch lines with various air flo "flo" tips and airflow custom cut tips, then just straight 10-12lb mono off the tip. I have found fishing the tips and then a bit of mono off the end is a bit easier to cast then the poly leaders for most people. Flies I fish: soft hackles and bugger/leach variations, all types of patterns range in the 6-12 size.

I am by no means a spey/switch master even though I have fished both styles for many years I usually just call the guys at Air Flo and tell them what I a want to do and what rod I want to do it on and they tell me what I need. I will say that the two outfits listed above are by far the best I have found for fishing the Yuba but that is only my 2 cents.

[DAVID95670]

I fish both the Airflo rage compact

have you ever put a nymph/bobber/indicator on this rage set up? If so how does it perform?

[TaylerW]

not the best line for indo fishing. It is not a "hybrid" line and is specifically built for down and across fishing. The taper is much different than that of a switch line. If your going to fish indo's alot, get a switch line....

[cyama]

Thanks for all the help everyone. Figuring out the spey world is so much different than other types of fly fishing... Seems like many of you like the rage compact. I will have to give that a try after I try out the new skagit head.

Chris

[DAVID95670]

Thanks for all the help everyone. Figuring out the spey world is so much different than other types of fly fishing... Seems like many of you like the rage compact. I will have to give that a try after I try out the new skagit head.

Chris


If you are swinging that skagit max is all u need for general purpose spey fishing.

Yeah I love my rage and flight but there ul8s not a big difference btw rage and skagit max. bunl3ss u r tossing heavy junk which on yuba not so much


I dont know if I want to add all the tips used with a 20 ft skagit max on a 5wt switch

[cyama]

I put the Skagit Max head on and it makes a huge difference. I can now cast nearly all the way to the other side of the river! The river isn't as skinny as I thought it would be at 500 cfs. Caught three fish one on a swung Jimmy Leggs and two on a hares ear soft hackles. River color is pretty good. A nice steelhead green...

[Larry S]

cy,
Looks like you correctly dialed it in. That's great!
Best,
Larry S

[cyama]

The tug is the drug!! Having fished lakes with intermediate lines and soft hackles and the delta with fast sinking lines it is a ton of fun to have that direct connection to the fish. I have always swung flies with the single hander, but the spey/switch for rivers is great!! The only other thing that is more amazing is having a big fish hit a swung muddler on the Trinity or Klamath. Everyone should be swinging. My advice is get out there and buy a few spey/switch rods!! Thanks again for all the important information!

[bigfly]

cyama, glad you got it going...if you thought fly fishing is information intensive.....
I fish the switch 75% the spey is a tad long for the T. Skulpin in a rusty tan 3". sz 2-6.
One thing, when the T is shallow, I will use the floater with a slightly weighted streamer w/6ft of maxima 8-10#
No snow on the ground in town, still snow on the hill for people with sports conflict....
As far as I know, there is no "tug" aversion therapy. Take it easy till you build up some tolerance......
Now........going fishing.

Jim

[Jed Peters]

The yuba was my first swinging river experience. First it was with a single hander swinging softies just under the surface during a caddis hatch, then it graduated to full blown two hander fishing.

Now, whenever I fish the yuba--it's nearly always with a two hander in the boat or in my hand (if I'm walking, which is rare).

Olive wooly buggers are the shit out there. They work well. I fish them typically with a tip.

Softies work with a floating line.

[BigKahuna]

I use a Switch Rod a lot on the Lower Yuba. Why? Because it's fun, I get to practice up on my spey casting, and I can do just about anything that I need to do on the Lower Yuba, although it will never replace a dry rod for presenting flies on top or in the film. I have a Sage TCX 5 weight switch , and a Sage Z-Axis 6 weight. I use the 5 weight in lower flows and the 6 weight in bugger flows. To me a switch rod is sort of a "fishing system".

I fish a lot out of the drift boat and walk and wade using a switch rod mainly using an Airflo Speydicator, I have this on a dedicated spool. This is a bomber "Indicator" type line. I use it for tight line nymphing (which I do alot), indicator nymphing, high stick nymphing, and swinging. It will turn over just about anything. I also match it up with Rio MOW Light Tips. I carry 10' floaters, 5' floater/5' T-8 and 7.5' floater/2,5' T- 8. I use the 5' floater/5'T-8 the most. I think this setup is really good tight lining. The Rio Switch Chuckar is pretty much the same design just a bit lighter, which isn't a bad thing just different. With that said I've used different full length integrated line line the Rio Switch, Buelah Elixer, Atlantic Salmon Steelhead and just an over sized (2-3 line weights over) Indicator line. I like the Speydicator the best. If I decide to swing small soft hackles or want to use it for throwing dries I'd use the Buelah Elixer or the Rio Switch. They are just more delicate. I have them on extra spools that I carry.

On another spool I have a 25 lb. running line and carry a head wallet with all kinds of heads. I carry Skagit Short heads for big water and going deep, and Scandi Short heads for lighter flows and smaller flies. I also use the Airflo Rage and the Airflo Switch heads. You just have to understand the where and why to use each and have them matched properly to your individual switch rod.

On another note, if I'm going to be swinging flies and working the downstream quadrant I'll bring out my spey rod. If you are going to swing flies you will be more effective, cast further with less effort.

You can read an article I wrote on Switch Rods for the Lower Yuba at http://flyfishingtraditions.blogspot.com/2014/03/why-do-i-use-switch-rod.html
Big Kahuna

[cyama]

Hey Clay good to see your blog is back in action! The spey information is great! The skagit casting video helped a lot. At first I was dragging my line while setting up the d loop, not knowing I could lift it and do a touch and go. Keep the info coming! I just bought a Scott L2H 12.5 foot 6 wt for the spring steelies on the other river and for when the Yuba gets back to it's regular flows.