Spey lines and winter

[JasonB]

So I am now a humble owner of one of the new 7/8 Delta lines. At 52' it sure seems Looong to me, although as I understand it this might be considered to be right near the dividing line between short to mid belly. At any rate, what I'm more curious about is how many of you folks out there actually fish a mid belly line (or longer) for winter steel. From those of you who do, I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts are on fishing these kind of lines: water types, conditions, gear, additional strategies, etc. I've already found that I LOVE how this line fishes; great control at a distance, and gorgeous layout and landing of line (once or twice so far that is). On the downside, I am having some added learning curve on my casting, and certainly need a bit more space and I'm keeping the fly size and tip weight pretty light to minimize issues there. My biggest issue so far is that other than a snake roll, I usually have to do more than one cast in order to really get the delivery that I want (PURELY casting technique, or lack of on my part).
Would love to hear others experiences using longer bellied spey lines for winter steelhead...
JB

[Don Powell]

Hi JB,
I equate Delta, Delta Long, Windcutter lines with late summer and early fall fishing when the water is low, the gravel bars behind me are open and welcome a larger D-loop and I use small flies, unweighted #4-10 flies...
Winter fishing, more water volume, deeper presentations and less open gravel bars trigger a switch to Skagit heads and heavy tips, weighted flies #2-4. This is just my experience... I am looking forward to what others have to offer...
Don

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Thanks Don....

That is what I gathered even though I have little experience with the longer lines.

If and when I get better, more consistent, with my Spey casting with shorter lines I will probably get a mid-belly line like a new Airflo Delta II or a Nextcast 45 for summer/fall fishing with a long tapered leader and a classic #6 wet steelhead fly.

.

[JasonB]

Yeah guys I would *normally* equate longer bellied lines with those classic scenarios too... of course if I were *normal* I might not be inclined to swing flies for winter steelhead at all. I do have other tools at my disposal, and I'm sure my skagit intermediate and rage lines will see plenty of use this winter. Just curious to hear from those who do swing a long (or mid) line for winter steel, as I know they are out there. Always more to learn,
JB

[Rick J]

When I first started out my first introductory classes were from Steve Choate and Way Yin who developed some of the original long lines - the XLTs and that is where I began my adventure with bellys around 80 to 90+ feet. I loved these lines but they did not do great at turn over with bigger flies. But Way worked on them and came up with cut points where you could cut the line and loop it to use with sink tips and my first winter stuff was using this setup and I could throw relatively large bugs. But no question, you needed pretty ideal conditions.

Later on I met Scott O'Donnell and Mike McCune on some guided trips who were just developing the Skagit lines - still using windcutter bellies and custom cut lines. I do have some shoulder/elbow problems so never looked back and I am firmly in the short belly camp now though on occasion I still like breaking to the XLTs and Delta Longs in the fall. But as I get older and more decrepit I really see the benefits of the short stuff as the casting is almost effortless and I can easily fish for multiple days without too much stress on arms/shoulders and elbows.

But if you want to pursue this winter stuff with longer lines just pick your places and water type - you might read Bill McMillan's Dry Line Steelhead - he has been very successful using floating lines, longer leaders and big steel

[Terry Thomas]

If you can find a copy, read DRY LINE FOR STEELHEAD by Bill McMillan. That book will give you confidence to fish your Delta line all year long.
Looks like Rick and I were posting at the same time.

[Idaho steel]

Hey Jason,
first off, congratulations on buying what is still one of the all time great spey lines. Once you learn to control anchor placement and d-loop formation, you'll be surprised at the tight quarters you can fish. Given good technique, and proper leader construction, you can also fish some pretty serious flies off the end of one too. Going to a floating or intermediate poly leader can be advantageous as those things will turn over anything! The poly leader will also keep you in the game when dealing with a strong upstream wind where a mono leader might crumple. These lines aren't really designed to fish tips or heavy poly leaders directly off the end. To do so, you may want to cut the head back and add a loop.

I quit using tips of any kind years ago, and fish deltas, vectors, Carrons etc. right through the coldest months. Initially I did so for the challenge, but I quickly came to love the simplicity. It allowed me to focus on steelhead rather than monkeying around with my gear. One thing that became quickly apparent is that there are a number of embedded fallacies in the world of steelhead fishing.

One of the most notable is the idea that when the water cools, you have to go deep and whack 'em in the face with a big fly. Actually, given moderate current speeds I've had fish come up through five feet of water to take a fly. As far as size is concerned, I recently took three fish on the Snake River on a size seven traditional hairwing. The water measured 38 F... Don't sweat turning over those chicken sized flies and getting 'em deep is what I'm saying.

However, steelhead seem to be much less likely to follow a fly laterally across the river. I don't think it's possible to swing a fly too slowly in the winter. Pay special attention to those really froggy runs with moderate depth that like to eat sink tips. Ideal water for the floater.

I have found that in cold temps, fish often move into some surprisingly shallow water. In fact, given decent structure, a foot and a half to two feet of depth is sufficient to hold fish. If the water has colored up at all, I've taken fish out of lies where the water is barely deep enough to cover their backs.

If the water comes up, the fish move with it. When it goes back down, so do the fish. All the beautiful structure you are hiking over in low water conditions becomes habitat for fish when the water comes up a foot or two. Steelhead rarely stay static in the river unless flows and temps have remained stable for more than a week.

Anyway, food for though perhaps. Have fun! Cheers--

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

You can also look at all the skagits made in the weight you need and buy the longest one.

I think some are using the Nextcast Winter Authority 35, 45, 55 and 70 lines with tips.

[JasonB]

Thanks guys that's a lot of great info there. So far I think that the number one issue by far is getting my casting a lot more consistent with the Delta. At any rate looks like I've got plenty to play around with this winter :-)
JB

[troutless]

Having recently started fishing longer lines in the winter, here are a few bits of personal perspective. Last winter I fished NextCast 45s and 55s on and off, both lines looped for tips. This year I intend to fish the NextCast 70. I consider this line a mid-belly and not at all out of place on many California rivers, including winter conditions. Even cut for tips you can be fishing at 70-80' distances without stripping any line. You can even fish wearing gloves, no fumbling with wet freezing running line. If you were foolish enough to fish last weekend up on the Klamath or Rogue and spent the day knocking ice out of your guides and clinging to handwarmers, you can imagine how useful a feature this is.

A few words about these lines, mostly related to sinking tips/polyleaders, I haven't done much winter floating line work (yet). I know you have a Delta, but, at some point you may want something different, longer and/or already cut for tips.

The NextCast Winter Authority 55 was really designed for, and does an excellent job of, turning over medium-weight sink tips. The 70 can likewise be cut for tips, or now bought pre-looped. You will not have the ability to manipulate really heavy tips like T-14 but, particularly in the heavier line sizes, even DC tips carry a reasonable amount of mass, edging close to T-11, and you are not restricted to tiny little flies. You really do want T-14 or T-17 to turn over the biggest winter Intruder-type patterns, but not all winter flies are that big. If you cut your line for tips, don't go hog-wild on length at first, start with 10' tips, work up in length.

NC 55 and 70 will both turn over sinking polyleaders. You can achieve quite a bit of distance with that sort of system.

Sparse flies are your friends. One of the reasons the new trendy chicken flies are tied with big dumbbell eyes, the combination requiring T-14 to cast, is that it is necessary to counteract the buoyancy of all the junk that is wrapped on the shank. Large yet sparsely-dressed traditional-style flies are surprisingly difficult to find at retail around these parts. If you tie your own flies, you have more control over the dressing, you can select for heavier hooks, even doubles, add a little (but not too much) extra weight, and so on.

Wind is your enemy.

A long rod will help with longer heads, perhaps even more so in the winter than summer if you are fishing tips. You need to (slowly!) lift that tip up to the surface. This is a lot easier with a 15' rod than a 12' rod. The new light, long rods from the likes of Meiser and Burkheimer can be cast all day without fatigue, and in 7/8 line weights, have enough heft to handle winter tips. There is a vocal contingent that will view you oddly, even mockingly, for carrying anything in CA over a 12' / 6 wt with a 30' head. Ignore them. Because you have a setup that CAN reach 120' (in the right hands) does not mean you cannot fish your rig at more typical 60-80' distances. Now if you need to cast at a 90 degree angle while standing in an alder patch, you'll be better served with a really short rod. But you wouldn't be using a Delta in that situation anyway. No, you don't "need" a 15' rod to reach those distances, but it can sure be nice. Did I mention the part about the gloves?


If or when you do start working with long lines -- in my book, that means 65' head length and up, Delta Long, NextCast 70, Carrons, etc. -- getting the right coaching can be essential. The longer the head the more minor casting issues will show up, and the more specialized technique refinements will be useful. With such lines, there are less resources available and fewer people who are qualified to give input much less teach, though you might not be able to tell that from the number of people who may express opinions on your casting. Barring injury or disability, and a longer rod, if you are expending, really, any energy casting a short head like the Delta, something is askew with your setup, or, you are doing something wrong.

Good luck.

[JasonB]

Thanks Troutless,
Couple of comments:
First off, I did look very hard at the nextcast WA55 but decided against it due to the fact that the 6/7 wt was 48' overall but cut 15' back for tips (which seemed a bit too similar to my Rage line to spend the coin). So far I've been using mostly a 10' super fast sink poly leader with the Delta, which seems to be fairly versatile in terms of depth ranges. I'm not looking to use this line for "junk" type conditions so much, so I'll likely be tossing size 6 through size 1.5 flies, usually pretty sparse and not weighted (or very lightly weighted).

One comment you made regarding avoiding the ice in the guides scenario brings up a conundrum I've been having (and yes I was foolish enough to be out freezing my butt off AND getting plenty of ice in my guides even while fishing my new line). The issue for me is that I am trying to avoid doing a massive mend, and yanking the flies all over the place on the touch down; thus I find that in order to get any sink time I need to add a lot more line into the drift prior to initiating the swing. Works nicely but it means I end up needing to strip in at least a half dozen pulls or so before making the next cast... ice in the guides begins. I also find it much, much easier to lift a sunken fly to recast it if I have a handfull of line pulls to bring it back up a bit first.

At any rate, thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful responses!
JB

[troutless]

Maybe there is a WA70 in your future, then.

Interesting comment on the WA55 lengths. My own mental picture is more of WA45 - floating tip = Rage. Those are mostly in the low-40s, cut at ten feet, puts the bellies right above thirty feet. The WA55 feels different to me, about the point I start to find it awkward to use sustained-anchor casts. However, I just went and looked at my lines. I usually cast 7/8s or 8/9s. I have two 7/8s in the WA55, one a full line, one a head, the former a couple years older than the latter. The boxes say 58' for the full line, 54' for the head, current model 7/8 head is listed at 51'. I've heard that the most recent lines had the rear taper removed, apparently I should have interpreted that literally!