Polyleader v. MOW tip: when to use and how to use?

[bmcclintic]

I was having a discussion on the Klamath over the long weekend about line setup when fishing. I have a Echo 13-6 8wt with a 570g Airflow compact Skagit head. I have looked through the forum for an answer but I am still not real clear on the concept of and when to use the poly v. MOW. I will admit that I am learning by trial and error when it comes to spey. Currently I am spending a lot more time on the error side because the success has been limited. With that said I turn this over to the experts here on this forum for some education.

So here are my questions:

In the sequence of setup, do I attach the polyleader directly to the end of the head or to one of the MOW tips (for exmple the floating tip)?

Is there a "rule of thumb" to follow to when you would use a MOW tip v. a Polyleader?

Thank you in advance.

Bob

[Larry S]

Bob,
Incoming PM.
Best,
Larry S

[Rick J]

I would not recommend using poly leaders with Skagit heads, especially those in the heavier grain range (yours would fall into this category) - the reason is both that the end of a Skagit head is relatively thick and also much heavier in grains per foot when compared to a poly leader - it will be difficult to get a smooth transition of energy with this setup. You can put a poly leader on the end of a floating tip or even a sink tip but generally I would stick to mono or FC leaders.

Poly leaders make more sense with scandi or Rage heads

[Terry Thomas]

I agree with Rick. As it sounds like you're just getting into the two hand game, you will want to pick up some 15 ft heads in different sink rates. The MOW systems have gained in popularity the past couple seasons. Your rod can handle either the T-11 or T-14 MOWs, however, you will probably find the T-11 more "user friendly." Try and watch Skagit Master 1 DVD. Ed Ward is one of the masters in the Skagit game!
T.

[troutless]

In the sequence of setup, do I attach the polyleader directly to the end of the head or to one of the MOW tips (for exmple the floating tip)?

Is there a "rule of thumb" to follow to when you would use a MOW tip v. a Polyleader?


Basic rule: MOW tips = on the end of a Skagit head

poly leaders = on the end of a full fly line

It's called a "tip" because it forms the "tip" of your fly line. Think of a Skagit system as a full line cut into two pieces: the "belly", what you get when you buy a "skagit head", and the "tip". So you always need both a "head" and a "tip" to complete a Skagit line. This can be a MOW tip, level T-type tip, or it can be a density-compensated (DC) tip like those that come with "Versitip" lines.

The Rio Scandi Versitip system is a shooting head spey line sliced in a similar way: the belly or "body" (around 23') and the tips (10' to 15').

Typical attachments of poly leaders are:

-) A Scandi head (perhaps the most common use)
-) A Skagit head + a floating MOW tip (very similar to a floating scandi line, but heavier if you don't downsize your skagit)
-) a mid- or long- belly spey line (if it has enough mass to turn over polyleaders, that are heavier than mono)
-) etc. etc., there are other exotic uses

Only if you have a very light skagit head and heavy polyleader would it make sense to attach the polys directly to the skagit head, otherwise you will have the problems Rick mentions. For example an Airflo Extra-Super-Fast sinking is comparable in weight to T-8, might make sense with 400gr heads. But even the Airflo Fast Sink poly is considerably lighter than a 4wt DC sink tip.

[k.hanley]

Guys I'm probably one of the dimmest bulbs in the pack when it comes to the two-handed scene, but I thought this link might help with the conversation......Having known Simon for a gazillion years, he's a true master at the game and an outstanding communicator. His video helped me get a better grasp of the line designs and their respective applications.

Enjoy! https://vimeo.com/70431251

Cheers, Ken

[gitt]

Try to get up to the Spey Clave on the Sandy River in May. Cost is county park daily entrance fee only- $5. Load up a car, same price. If you hang out there for all three days, the information available to you will get you up to speed. Its a total immersion program and no selling is involved. I took buddies up there that were just getting into Spey just to surround them with Spey only folks. After three days they had a grasp of the concepts, if not awareness of what can be done with a two handed rod. We hung out with the Airflo rep my first year and quizzed him on poly leaders until we understood the system. They are proprietary in nature only, just like Rio's MOW tips and Versa leaders. If you have the dinero, get the MOW tips. I'm cheap, can't justify the price, and bought a 30 foot section of T-11 and T-14 and cut different lengths to do the job. The other systems maintain your tip length throughout the range. I can't tell the difference if I pay attention to my anchor point. If the tips turn over, I am happy. You results may vary.

The toughest part in learning two handed rods is to stick to one individual that knows how to set up systems and can give you feedback on your casting. If you listen to 6 different people, you will get 6 different ideas. This scenario only confused me with conflicting techniques and ideas how to get the fly out until sticking with one guru as a constant resource and feedback.

[bmcclintic]

Gentlemen, thank you for the info and education. I'm sure I will be back for more.

Gitt - I was planning on going to the Clave but will have to miss it in 2014. Immersion is always the best way to learn for me and will hate to miss the opportunity.

Tight lines everyone.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Spey wise, we generally recommend 10' or 15' Poly or Versi leaders for Scandi lines.

Then 10' or 15' removable sink tips in different sink rates or 10' MOW tips for Skagit lines.

People also use custom cut lengths of level tungsten or lead core line for sink tips on Skagit lines too.

**When some is sucessful with Steelhead swinging flies I will ask them what line, what tip, what leader length & size and what fly they were using. I like to see their fly in person if possible.

[Anne Vitale]

Kenny....One thing I have noticed missing in the above advice is that no one has mentioned that the end of the line...the fly and where you want to fish it in the stream. Scandi heads with or without Versitips (plus 3 or 4 feet of 10lb straight mono tippit) are meant to throw out small ( size 6 or 8 ) spey flies ( Silver Hilton, Green Butt Skunk, etc) for low water summer run steelhead. Skagit heads on the other hand were designed to throw monster flies (Intruders, leeche paterns, Prom Dress, etc) in heavy winter conditions when you want to get that big fly out there and down deep on the swing. In this case attaching either a 10 ft piece of T8, T11 or T14 or one of the combination MOW tips pluse tippet is the way to go.
Rule of thumb:
Scandi heads with or with out a versitip (which is essentally a sinking leader) plus a tippet for summer run fishing
Skagit heads plus a 10 foot piece of Tx or one of the variations that come with the MOW tips depending on how deep you want your big fly to drift.
I hope this helps.......Anne

[troutless]

Scandi heads with or with out a versitip (which is essentally a sinking leader) plus a tippet for summer run fishing


Sorry to be a jerk, but the "versitips" in the versitip system (as named by Rio) are "tips" and are not the same as "versileaders" which are the Rio equivalent to Airflo polyleaders. Versitips and versileaders are not interchangeable. See previous comment. I wish they would choose less confusing names.

A Scandi versitip system would typically be set up as:

scandi body + versitip + leader + tippet

In the case of a floating versitip, typical for summer run, the leader would be versileader/polyleader, floating or sinking, or tapered mono sans further tippet.

A sinking versitip then perhaps straight mono tippet to the tip. At this point, for all practical purposes, one has a Skagit system under a different name, and probably downsized in grain weight.

[Terry Thomas]

As you can see, this can be a very confusing issue. Ann's description is pretty much spot on. Manufactures terminology can cloud what we are trying to achieve. The basis for all two hand casting (and single hand casting): mass turns over mass.
Scandi- lighter and longer lines for smaller and lighter flies (Airlo Poly leaders or Rio Versi leaders)
Skagit- heavier and shorter for larger and heavier flies (Rio Versi tips, MOW tips, "T" material, and lead core).

[Don Powell]

All responses are accurate and I hope, helpful. In my experience, a 13' 6" rod is more useful as a Skagit type tool and as such matches best with the lighter range of Skagit heads usually 75 grains lighter if you want to fish with a floating tip or slightly subsurface presentation- 475- 525 Skagit head and a 15' floating tip. If one fishes t-11 or t-14 in 10 - 15' lengths, you use a Skagit head 550- 575. I have used polyleaders from Airflo and Rio only with Scandi heads which should be 10- 15 % lighter than the Skagit heads mentioned above... A fisherman just needs to follow these simple guidelines and figure out what works best. I have found the guidelines I speak of to be reliable in most situations. Hope this is helpful info.. I think it is in synch with what others have said...

[bmcclintic]

Thanks again everyone, it is really apreciated. The depth of knowledge within this forum is amazing.

Tight lines.