Switch skagit problems

[Norman B]

I have a Beulah 6/7 switch rod 10 ft 6 in and it has been a great rod for swinging a scandi line with this years low water conditions.
What a great rod and Beulah is a great company too, broke my tip a few weeks ago and sent it back and the turn around was 10 days!
When I got my rod back, I decided to try my skagit line with a T8 sink tip. My great casting with the scandi line turned into difficult and poor casting with the skagit/sink tip set up.
I think that the rod is a little short and not stout enough to throw the heavier skagit/tips.
Do I need a longer switch rod ?11 ft and maybe a 7 or 8 weight, or is it all because of my poor technique?
Which switch rod do you expert spey casters like for sink tip applications as the waters rise and get cold?
Any advice is appreciated.

[winxp_man]

How Many grains is the skagit head?

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

You might try a 12'6" #6 Spey rod for a light Skagit rod?

**I agree that those classic Beulah Switch rods are a little short and a little soft.

[winxp_man]

Maybe casting a skagit short head or the new Rio Max Skagit heads might help. Sounds like you might be using to heavy of a skagit head and with sinking tip its creating a bit of a problem. Also might want to start out by using a floating or a 5/5 tip versus a full sinking.

[Norman B]

I am using a 350 gr skagit as recommended by Beulah.
The T8 sink tip was the 7.5/2.5 MOW tip
I have a great Meiser 12'6", but with the low river, the switch fits the conditions for me best.

[troutless]

Just to clarify, is it the Tonic 350 you are fishing, and the MOW tip with 7.5ft of T-8, 2.5ft of floater (as opposed to 2.5ft T-8, 7.5 ft floater?)

In my opinion, while that is not an ideal rig for winter conditions, that's not the issue. For a winter short rod, I use a Z-Axis 8110 and 510gr Skagit Switch, but, the heavier rig is more to manage larger flies which in turn cast better with a heavier tip, not about turnover of light tips. The 6/7 Beulah should be more than capable of managing the tip you are using. 7.5' of T-8 is really not very heavy as such things go. I cast the MOW lights for trout on a Beulah 5/6 10'6" switch and I believe the same weight Tonic (or less). So, I would point to technique first. What issues are you having?

The Tonic is fairly compact, but, if you wanted, and think it might help your casting, you could probably go up in grain weight quite a bit, say to an Airflo Skagit Switch 420. Rio recommends up to 425gr Skagit, Airflo even more.

[Norman B]

Thanks for the replies so far
Yes the Tonic 350, the tip is 2.5 T8, 7.5 floater
I was having problems shooting the line out after the D loop is established, but I had no problems with the same rod with the scandi line and no sink tip, just a 9 foot leader

[briansII]

Thanks for the replies so far
Yes the Tonic 350, the tip is 2.5 T8, 7.5 floater
I was having problems shooting the line out after the D loop is established, but I had no problems with the same rod with the scandi line and no sink tip, just a 9 foot leader

This may sound dumb, but are you sure the head is on the right way?

Casting is fine with a longer scandi line, but having troubles with a shorter skagit makes me wonder if you are loosing your anchor.

briansII

[troutless]

Yes the Tonic 350, the tip is 2.5 T8, 7.5 floater
I was having problems shooting the line out after the D loop is established, but I had no problems with the same rod with the scandi line and no sink tip, just a 9 foot leader

Only 2.5 feet of sinking material? Really should be no issue casting that, not very much difference from a full floating tip (unless you are in very slow water and REALLY letting it soak). Very hard to debug casting problems over the internet, get someone to watch your cast. Could be any number of things. Blowing the anchor/ too much speed/power, timing issues (forward cast too late, forward cast too early), mis-aligned D-loop are common issues. A short Skagit head does have different requirements on timing and stroke length, especially on a short rod, if you are gunning it with the scandi line you may run into problems.

Try to slow your cast down as much as possible and try to see where things are going wrong.

[troutless]

This may sound dumb, but are you sure the head is on the right way?



Hey, I haven't done that for at least a month!

[Norman B]

I am sure the line is rigged correctly, line was loaded at a fly shop.
Great advice to slow down, unlike the fast pace/shooting line when I use a floating scandi line.
I will consider another heavier line as well.
Really I was looking for an excuse to buy another rod!

[gitt]

This may sound dumb, but are you sure the head is on the right way?

briansII

Sometimes the simplest solutions are right in front of you. It doesn't hurt to experiment by flipping the head, especially when it is done in the privacy of your own run. Had a similar issue when I felt more comfortable with my scandi. It went as far as a buddy borrowing my reel lined with the scandi. He was looking at the line and told me it was backwards. What? How could that be? He said the taper was backwards and it was suppose to go to the running line. Is that right? I had carefully looped the end marked for the running line connection. It turned over just fine. Skeptical of my partner's suggestion, I called Rio, got the scoop and it was lined correctly. When it came time to swap out Airflo Skagit, it was no longer in the package and forgot how it attached to my running line. Thought by just looking at the loops, I could figure it out. At best, it was a 50% chance of being correct. My cast fell apart and struggled for awhile before the thought of flipping the head. All of sudden things were one with nature.

Yes, it does sound dumb, but it is an easy fix. Slowing down your stroke, as was pointed out earlier, and make sure you have enough stick to avoid losing your anchor. If your stroke is slow enough, you can pickup line and load the rod without ripping it off the water. Listen for the auditory indicator- quieter is better.

[briansII]

Really I was looking for an excuse to buy another rod!

I really think it's the rod. It's just not suited for throwing skagit lines. You'll never be happy with that rod. Time to pony up and get the proper equipment.

Hope that helps.

briansII

[troutless]

It went as far as a buddy borrowing my reel lined with the scandi. He was looking at the line and told me it was backwards. What? How could that be? He said the taper was backwards and it was suppose to go to the running line. Is that right? I had carefully looped the end marked for the running line connection. It turned over just fine. Skeptical of my partner's suggestion, I called Rio, got the scoop and it was lined correctly. When it came time to swap out Airflo Skagit, it was no longer in the package and forgot how it attached to my running line. Thought by just looking at the loops, I could figure it out. At best, it was a 50% chance of being correct. My cast fell apart and struggled for awhile before the thought of flipping the head. All of sudden things were one with nature.




If you look at the taper on a Rio Outbound or OBS, it is awfully similar to a reversed scandi head. Those lines will not speycast for beans, and they turnover like a pregnant hippopotamus, but they shoot like the dickens and will cast a dead rat. If you ever find yourself needing to deliver a big fly on a light rod, and all you've got is a scandi head, try reversing it and overhead casting.

[Rick J]

I agree with some other posts that you should be able to cast that setup quite well. Curious if you are in fact blowing your anchor but if not then I would likely go shorter - say an AIRFLO Skagit Switch - 18.5 feet or a bit longer depending on grain weight - maybe the 390 would be a nice fit.

But if you are using touch and go casts with your scandi then likely you are going too fast. Slow way down and keep a very compact casting stroke - your elbows should stay close to your sides, your upper hand should get no higher than shoulder height. Skagit casting especially with short rods and short heads should be a very compact stroke

[itsbenlong]

I had a similar setup on a Zaxis switch rod and after a couple line changes and configurations I adjusted the position of my top hand (lowered it) and it all came together. That might not be your issue but try moving your top hand up and/or down and see if that helps. I'm no pro by the way but I am a die hard....

[briansII]

This may sound dumb, but are you sure the head is on the right way?
briansII


Hey, I haven't done that for at least a month!


I am sure the line is rigged correctly, line was loaded at a fly shop.
Great advice to slow down, unlike the fast pace/shooting line when I use a floating scandi line.
I will consider another heavier line as well.
Really I was looking for an excuse to buy another rod!

So I go out to try a new line(Rage Compact)on a TCX 6119. It's the "recommended" weight for this rod, but when I try it, everything feels wrong. Feels too light and I'm not getting any distance. Yep. I put the head on backwards. DOH! I'm not saying your head is on backwards, but a fly shop can make mistakes too. If you are have drastic changes to your distance with a "recommended" line, maybe flip it around and try it again.

briansII

[Norman B]

I checked the line, and it was on correctly.
I think that the rod just is too wimpy for a skagit and sink tip.
The Beulah rod was great all season swinging a scandi line, but like u said, I probably need a bigger gun for a switch skagit set up.

[Siskiyoublues]

I think it's a technique issue over a tackle issue.
I have the 10'6 4/5 and that rod will turn over 8' of t8 with a skagit head or wulff ambush line with ease.
Anchor placement and speed/power of your cast will be very different with a skagit then a scandi.
Maybe try the head paired with a fast sinking 10' versileader instead of the 2.5 sink mow.
Try to spend some time on the water with someone with more experience casting skagit lines before you decide to buy anything,
you might be surprised what that little rod can do.

[Jed Peters]

I checked the line, and it was on correctly.
I think that the rod just is too wimpy for a skagit and sink tip.
The Beulah rod was great all season swinging a scandi line, but like u said, I probably need a bigger gun for a switch skagit set up.

Norman, I fish a 5119 with the recommended (330) rage head myself in waters right out your back door (if you're in willow creek).

That rod LOVES a rage head.

You know who turned me on to that head? Jason Hartwick and Aaron Stiny. Aaron may not be much help (he works at a competing line company) but Jason is local to you and actually helped me find the right weight for my stroke.

Perhaps in the "swing" season of the year (now between the fall and winter runs) you may be able to grab jason for a little afternoon casting session to try some different things?

He's at:

steelheadonthespey.wordpress.com

Jed

[Rick J]

doubt that the rod is too wimpy though I have not cast a Beulah for quite awhile - but you might actually be too light - based on recommendations on the Kiene Spey site 375 is the lightest they suggest.

I have an old single hand 10' 7 wt Fischer that I converted to a switch that I am sure has a softer tip than the Beulah and it absolutely launches a 375 RIO short with T8 MOW tips

[Norman B]

Again, thanks for all the advice.
I guess that I am an intermediate caster with the switch rod, I cast my speyrod with a skagit much better.
I have taken a winter speyrod/skagit lesson with Jason Hartwick a few years ago and it helped immensely.
I think that more grains or another skagit line would be a solution, and if that dose not work, I guess that I will get some more lessons.

[Rick J]

Norm - sent you a PM
Rick