Combat on American River

[DAVID95670]

Be aware that the gear guys definitely do not welcome spey casters near them at this time especially at H Street.

Aron and I had a run in with them yesterday morning and this morning they were hostile when i was there casting.

In their words "YOU ARE NOT WELCOME ON OUR RIVER" Aron's reply of "F@#$ You" was poorly recieved.


be prepared for combat it will happen

[steveg137]

Be aware that the gear guys definitely do not welcome spey casters near them at this time especially at H Street.

Aron and I had a run in with them yesterday morning and this morning they were hostile when i was there casting.

In their words "YOU ARE NOT WELCOME ON OUR RIVER" Aron's reply of "F@#$ You" was poorly recieved.


be prepared for combat it will happen


I've been planning on learning to Spey cast (thanks for your advice earlier David) but TBH this really puts me off - the idea of dealing with these kind of people.

Are there other decent waters to Spey Cast in the area that I could try or have to go much further afield e.g. Trinity?

Anyway good luck dealing with them, hope you connect with some chrome right in front of them!

[Mark Kranhold]

Yep, those are the river park locals. They have been fishing that run for years. You will have to fish the bottom of the run with the fly, plus I wouldn't won't to get tangled with all that mono. Mono isn't a fly lines friend unless you like a sliced and diced fly line. I never had a problem with them at the bottom of the run with a single hander.

[Frank Alessio]

Yep, those are the river park locals. They have been fishing that run for years. You will have to fish the bottom of the run with the fly, plus I wouldn't won't to get tangled with all that mono. Mono isn't a fly lines friend unless you like a sliced and diced fly line. I never had a problem with them at the bottom of the run with a single hander.

You would think a dead or dying Salmon was a food source....JMOP

[DAVID95670]

we were fishing the bottom of the run, they got pissed when they let their hooked fish drift down the main channel not trying to control it. They could bring it in behind us close to the island but they won't. It simply has begun a battle.

Steve there are a ton of places to fish without the line up. i just thought we could all live together. it was not to be had. they also got pissed when we called them out using 15 to 30 ft leaders which are illegal.

[Scott V]

Just another reason why I love my kayak. To get away from jerks on the river, opps I'm sorry, to get away from snaggers on the river.

[CEM]

Be aware that the gear guys definitely do not welcome spey casters near them at this time especially at H Street.

Aron and I had a run in with them yesterday morning and this morning they were hostile when i was there casting.

In their words "YOU ARE NOT WELCOME ON OUR RIVER" Aron's reply of "F@#$ You" was poorly recieved.


be prepared for combat it will happen

David,
Those are not "gear guys", those are snaggers. They come in all forms. Using 30 foot leaders with gear, camping out on redds with gear, or fly rods. A true fisherman/woman will not need room for a 30 foot leader. I think the people you encoutered feel more comfortable when everyone around them is fishing the same way, ILLEGALLY!

I have fished with a fly rod for fifty years or so, longer than that with gear. I don't have a problem with either group, as long as you're fishing for biters, not fish that are actively spawning, or are just passing by and happen to open their mouth at the wrong time, and get "flossed" with a long leader.

I just get tired of hearing complaints using generalities like "gear guys", or "fly snobs".

BTW, Aarons reply, in my opinion, was entirely appropriate. Succinct and to the point.

Chuck

[bassakwards]

Aaron does have that je ne sais quoi

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

When salmon are running up a river it brings out the worst in people...or is the worst people?

[kabah088]

we were fishing the bottom of the run, they got pissed when they let their hooked fish drift down the main channel not trying to control it. They could bring it in behind us close to the island but they won't. It simply has begun a battle.

Steve there are a ton of places to fish without the line up. i just thought we could all live together. it was not to be had. they also got pissed when we called them out using 15 to 30 ft leaders which are illegal.

Please elaborate how this is illegal, never heard of that before.

[TaylerW]

It's illegal due to the fact that with that rig all your doing is snagging, which is illegal

[Darian]

Tayler is correct, snagging is illegal. The F&G Code, at Art. 1, Setion 2.00, (b) & (c) defines snagging. To the best of my knowledge, the rig used (super long leaders), is not mentioned as illegal equipment.

I suppose it would be futile to attempt to make the use of super long leaders illegal, regardless of the fact that it is frequently used to "floss" Salmon/Steelhead. If there are a lot of Salmon in an area we're fishing, we're gonna snag one occasionally. It's sometimes unavoidable. So, if our intent is to snag a fish, that's illegal. If we incidentally snag one and either break it off or release it quickly, it's not illegal. Most fishers (fly/gear guys) believe that using a long leader implies that the intent is to deliberately snag a fish. Fly fishers use super Long leaders at times and for specific purposes, too. Sometimes use of those leaders result in flossed fish. Same rules apply. If your intent is to snag a fish, it's illegal.

The F&G Code hasn't been updated to reflect the use of all of the new spey/switch related long leaders/tips, etc., and I'm not sure it's necessary but it's sometimes tricky to keep everything in mind when we're out there beating the water to a froth.... :cool:

Of course, there're lots of fly/gear guys who believe that since Salmon/Steelhead are not supposed to be feeding while in fresh water, that any fish caught while swinging has been snagged. I've heard them (Clancy Holt for one) advance the position that they're presenting their lures directly downstream to fish and they take it for whatever reason in the mouth. I'm not a subscriber to any of that theory but it's out there.

This subject re-surfaces up from time to time. Always lots of emotion involved....

[Walter]

It's illegal due to the fact that with that rig all your doing is snagging, which is illegal

You dont know what you are talking about. If you want to line, floss, or snag you can do it with whatever tackle you like. It doesnt have to be a long leader.

You spey guys line with sink tips do it all the time too, with your six foot leaders.

Watch what you say when you dont know what you are talking about.


And if you want to stop those guys go drop the skeleton of a box spring mattress with lead dumbell weights, right in the bucket.

Game over!!!

[jbird]

you know where this threads goin when Walter shows up. LOL ;)

[Mark Kranhold]

I smell chrome season's coming. Hahaha Here we go again!

[Randy Lee]

I have said it before. How about them A's!

[TaylerW]

When can we ban Walter again?

[Mike O]

if the hook is outside the mouth, or inside out on the lips, it's snagged, yes?

[Darian]

DFG Regs describe snagging at:

"(b) Snagging is prohibited. Snagging is defined as impaling or attempting to impale a fish in any part of its body other than the mouth by use of a hook, hooks, gaff, or other mechanical implement. This definition does not include activities otherwise authorized under these regulations for the lawful use of a gaff, bow and arrow, or spear.
(c) It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait or artificial lure in its mouth. Any fish not taken pursuant to these regulations, shall be released immediately back into the water." (emphasis added) :cool:

[jbird]

There's obvious exceptions to this rule. Pegged beads and MOALs for example. BUT. I consider anything hooked outside the mouth to be flossed and snagged. Its just easier to define. Pegged beads are truly an anomoly because the system is designed to hook fish from outside-in

[Mike O]

DFG Regs describe snagging at:

"
(c) It is unlawful to kill, or retain in possession any fish which has not voluntarily taken the bait or artificial lure in its mouth. Any fish not taken pursuant to these regulations, shall be released immediately back into the water." (emphasis added) :cool:

so a pegged bead, made to have the hook outside the mouth...is it a snagged fish, or not?

[Darian]

In California, pegged beads with a short trailer that is designed to hook fish outside the mouth are not described as illegal in the regs. Here, as in the case of the other mentioned rigs, it might be seen to be illegal to use as the intent of that type of rig is to hook up outside the mouth. Same problem as before, intent. I suppose a warden could observe someone using these rigs over a period of time and if all fish hooked were snagged, he/she would see it as a violation and issue a citation. I suspect that the reason DGW hasn't tried to declare these rigs as illegal is there might be too many problems in describing every type of rig or proving a violation has occurred. :confused:

So, in answer to your question, it seems to depend on whether the fish was actually hooked inside or outside of the mouth. Some of those hook-ups probably would be inside the mouth. This type of rig (pegged beads) has been described/discussed in other, earlier threads. :cool:

[Jed Peters]

You dont know what you are talking about. If you want to line, floss, or snag you can do it with whatever tackle you like. It doesnt have to be a long leader.

You spey guys line with sink tips all the time too, with your six foot leaders.

What what you say when you dont know what you are talking about.


And if you want to stop those guys go drop the skeleton of a box spring mattress with lead dumbell weights, right in the bucket.

Game over!!!

As caustic as Walter might be, the guy has a point....This happens A LOT with the "Spey" guys, both on salmon and spawning steelhead. I've seen it personally.

[Mike O]

In California, pegged beads with a short trailer that is designed to hook fish outside the mouth are not described as illegal in the regs. Here, as in the case of the other mentioned rigs, it might be seen to be illegal to use as the intent of that type of rig is to hook up outside the mouth. Same problem as before, intent. I suppose a warden could observe someone using these rigs over a period of time and if all fish hooked were snagged, he/she would see it as a violation and issue a citation. I suspect that the reason DGW hasn't tried to declare these rigs as illegal is there might be too many problems in describing every type of rig or proving a violation has occurred. :confused:

So, in answer to your question, it seems to depend on whether the fish was actually hooked inside or outside of the mouth. Some of those hook-ups probably would be inside the mouth. This type of rig (pegged beads) has been described/discussed in other, earlier threads. :cool:

I would think, that if game warden walked up and saw you land a fish which was hooked inside out, pegged bead or no, and you didn't release it, then it would be ticket-time.

[Darian]

Mike,.... You asked in response to jbirds post about pegged beads: "so a pegged bead, made to have the hook outside the mouth...is it a snagged fish, or not?" The question appears to ask about whether the fish was snagged while using pegged beads and the answer is yes. But, since the rig is not defined as illegal, whether the rig a fish is snagged or not doesn't seem to be the issue. If the fish is released, not kept, it doesn't sound like a violation.

If I was a warden and I observed a person using one of the rigs we've been discussing who hooked a fish and brought it in only to discover that it was hooked outside the mouth and then promptly releaseed, did I observe a violation??? In that instance, I don't think so. On the other hand, if the person kept the fish, I have observed a violation and I'd issue a citation (confiscate the fish, the gear and give the guy a wedgie ;) ). Maybe this is/was why wardens rarely got involved in enforcement activities above the Hazel Avenue bridge?? The "long leader" rig was frequently used up there with predictable results. When wardens did go up there, I was never able to see what they actually issued citations for from where I was standing. May've been oversized hooks or some other banned type of gear.... :confused:

Of course there's always the caveat that I'm not a warden and they might see it differently.

[Mike R]

The pegged bear argument has been hashed out annually...right about...now. Comparing flossers to guys pegging beads is idiotic. They share no similarity at all.

[Jeff Putnam]

I've been swinging for steelhead for over 30 years and fishing spey rods for almost 17. When done correctly you dont snag steelhead or salmon... only if you fish on or near the redds. Swinging flies is the best way to experience real fly fishing so leave spawning areas alone (upper rivers near dams), learn how to read water and leave spawning fish alone! Also, salmon have migrated so far from the ocean to spawn in the American so lets get over our egos and leave them alone... although I'm sure gear fishermen are right "they sure do smoke well". Really? After 48 hours out of the salt salmon begin to loose their fat and their organs shrink as they use the nutrients for energy and to live. Fish for the grab and when you dont catch anything realize that you chose to "fish" and not "catch". Release all fish so we have something to do in the future. JP

[Walter]

you know where this threads goin when Walter shows up. LOL ;)



Yeah back to reality. Jerk.



Fishing tackle doesnt line and snag fish. People line and snag fish.

[winxp_man]

I've been swinging for steelhead for over 30 years and fishing spey rods for almost 17. When done correctly you dont snag steelhead or salmon... only if you fish on or near the redds. Swinging flies is the best way to experience real fly fishing so leave spawning areas alone (upper rivers near dams), learn how to read water and leave spawning fish alone! Also, salmon have migrated so far from the ocean to spawn in the American so lets get over our egos and leave them alone... although I'm sure gear fishermen are right "they sure do smoke well". Really? After 48 hours out of the salt salmon begin to loose their fat and their organs shrink as they use the nutrients for energy and to live. Fish for the grab and when you dont catch anything realize that you chose to "fish" and not "catch". Release all fish so we have something to do in the future. JP


Jeff well said! :D 100% agree!

[Walter]

A hook moving through water with a bunch of fish is bound to both legally hook fish as well as floss an snag.

It's the intent of the fisherman and their behavior WITH the tackle that tells you whats going to happen, repeatedly.


DFW has rejected proposed tackle reg changes WE Californians have proposed. Oregon and Washington have specific regs designed to address intentional overt illegal hooking of fish.

DFW is too busy justifying their annual budget by riding with the feds, busting dope grows because of their omnipotent ability to violate the 4th amendment. Thats how they want to spend their time.

[donkeyhunter007]

DFW is too busy justifying their annual budget by riding with the feds, busting dope grows because of their omnipotent ability to violate the 4th amendment. Thats how they want to spend their time.

A couple years ago I had the wierdest encounter with two very young DFG wardens. They came up to me and asked "where are all the pounds of marijuana" I was Like "WHAT?" I told them they could search my truck? They continued to probe me about pot and then began to threaten me and tell me they are going to search my hotel room and the hotel owners freezer for fish. It went on for 30 minutes! I work too hard to drive six hours and I spend alot of money in the communities around LOTS of rivers ....to get this kind of treatment is unacceptable. I have been on the american when there has been very obvious snaggers everywhere...it looke like they had 20ft leaders coming off a huge weight and they would make giant sweeping pulls very obvoius. Wardens should be busting the people snagging using barbs and leaving trash and cig butts at our favorite spot.The impression I got was these young bucks wardens were trying to make a name for themselves so they are willing to ruin my vacation by the off chance they are going to find someone with some weed so they can feel like big shots. They should be ashamed of themselves. The people who are reliant on our sportfishing, tourism dollars should tell the wardens to back off the gastapo bull@#$%.
I got harrased by a sherrif on my local riverbecause he didnt know the rules and wanted to be a jerk. I told my local fly shop owner what went down and he was not happy (he has law enforcement background). He called the sherriff and told them to stop harrasing his customers.

I do very much appreciate our first responders and the important roles they play in our society. Just not when Im trying to swing for steel :-)
Sorry for the rant I have been holding that one in for a while :-)

[jbird]

Yeah back to reality. Jerk.



Fishing tackle doesnt line and snag fish. People line and snag fish.

My point Walter is you only show up when theres an argument in the steelhead forum.

Not an opinion :)

[Walter]

My point Walter is you only show up when theres an argument in the steelhead forum.

Not an opinion :)



I piss and moan about Shad too!!!!! Too many bones in the damn things...