River Etiquett

[Norman B]

Just the beginning of the season for me, swinging a steelhead fly in September.
I usually wait for the water temps to dip below 70, then go to one of my favorite spots on the river, one of the same spots that I have fished for 30 years.
I arrived at the river before day light, no one there except me. I put my kayak in the water, and cross the river with my headlamp on to cross just as the sun is rising.
I start at the top of the run, and fish downstream, taking 3-5 steps every cast. I am fortunate to hook a few fish right off the bat, and just as I am entering the best part of the run, the spot where the flow is perfect for a swung fly, 2 flyfishers just upstream from me cross the river on foot, and one of them walks behind me and plops right in below me in the prime of the run. The other guy stays upstream from me and I am basically sandwiched between them. There was no conversation or asking me if it was okay, he just low holed me.
I was moving downstream, taking my steps, and the guy below me is just taking his time slowly moving a few steps every few casts. As I was almost 50 ft upstream from him, he looks at me and still says nothing.
I decided to leave silently, feeling a little pissed about the lack of etiquette, and as I am paddling my kayak away from the scene, the other guy upstream from me yells out and asks me if I have had any luck, and I replied that of course I have luck, but I needed to get away from the crowded conditions. I finished my day skating and catching a few more fish, away from the maddening crowd.
Any advice about what you would have done in this scenario?
I try to avoid confrontation when I am fishing and relaxing, but it's tough to be cool sometimes.

[Alosa]

I think you did the right thing. Those guys should have asked if it was ok to come in BEHIND you. The low-holeing is just plain rude.

[Darian]

This subject repeats itself over and over each season. I don't see a solution coming any time soon. While I understand the feeling and wish that people would be less obtrusive, I think you might be expecting too much of fisher folks up there whether local or from other areas. The Trinity is one of the most crowded/pounded waters to fish in the state. With approximately 39 million people here, many of which are Salmon/Steelhead fishers, it's unrealistic to assume that a river as heavily reported on and fished by all will not experience crowds.

I'd say expect crowds, even small ones, and expect rude behavior. On the occasion that you arrive there and have it to yourself, enjoy your good fortune. Otherwise, if you don't want to be upset, be ready to do what you did and pull out to maintain your calm. Confrontation is generally useless. Of course, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.... :cool:

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I would say that most conventional steelhead anglers have no idea what "low holing" means.

Most classic fly fishers who swing flies for Steelhead should know about this though.

I think it is just part of fishing where other people can fish.

On the Lower American River we call it a good day if you get back to you car and it is still there.

.

[winxp_man]

For me its simple. I dont care to start river fights so if anyone does me wrong o'well there are more places to fish. I have been in some pretty crazy situation where I'm walking down a fish and fly fishermen in a drift boat just sat there watching me walk down a fish and they did not even budge as the fish was coming near there boat. Lost a pretty big steelhead. In the end what ever move on. If you get butt hurt by what you see on the river and what happens on the river you might as well stay home because the world is so screwed up.

I say what ever and enjoy it while there are still rivers to be fished and fish to be caught......

[Scott V]

There are fish in other parts of the river, I just up and leave. I don't deal with ignorant or stupid people. They can have the spot I was fishing. If a person needs to get in a fight over a fishing spot, then I don't need to deal with them or be around them.

[Jed Peters]

It is "interesting" hearing the thoughts from several of the folks on this thread.

To me, if you're in a run first, it's your run. Meaning nymphing or swinging, you move DOWN through the run.

Do it efficiently if not a bit quickly, but be thorough.

People that know me know I'm not afraid to say something when I get low holed. In fact, a poster in this thread came UNCOMFORTABLY close between me and Charlie Gonzales one day a couple years ago when we were shad fishing and I said "where do you think you're fishing?"

Right or wrong, sometimes I feel it's my duty to point out others' indiscretions; to a certain point.

[aaron]

Let them know they're being rude, do it nicely, so they know in the future what not to do. No need to positively reinforce bad etiquette.

[shawn kempkes]

Let them know they're being rude, do it nicely, so they know in the future what not to do. No need to positively reinforce bad etiquette.

that is why i fish with my lab. If some guy lowholes me i just start hurling his tennis ball right on top of his line. (just kidding)

[jbird]

Let them know they're being rude, do it nicely, so they know in the future what not to do. No need to positively reinforce bad etiquette.

I agree with this. More often its ignorance rather than arogance or aggression that lead people to do this. And the best way to educate succesfully is lovingly. Easier said than done, but worth considering.

[Digger]

unfortunately you are not required to take a written test for a fishing license, like you do a drivers license.

Hmmmm.... ?

[Norman B]

The mature part of my brain says walk away and ignore them, but my steelheader's brain tells me to let the low holer know he's lacking river etiquette. Next time I will have to decide.....
By the way, the lowholing event happened 40 miles down river from my home in Willow Creek, way out the Klamath, where it takes some traveling to get to, (not on the Trinity).

[Smitty Fish]

Sounds like a job for the "dirty pool fly"!

[KillBill]

JP, your post brings up a question that I would like to ask, it pertains to shad fishing as well as steelhead fishing etiquette. It seems that shad fishing is all about standing in one spot, usually the bucket, and not moving, is that proper etiquette? The opposite holds true for steelhead, for the most part, fly fishermen move through a run by making a cast then stepping down till they finish the run, if they are lucky enough to get a grab then all of a sudden the run belongs to them, is that proper etiquette? I've noticed that the gear guys have no clue whatsoever about etiquette and that's not going to change, so like Scott, I just move on. I guess my point is,,, there are no written rules that are agreed upon by all that share the river, but as Aaron pointed out, being cordial and polite is easier on the blood pressure, I'm there for short time and I want to enjoy the moment. Of course that ceases when I see the bastards pounding the redds at the Upper Sunrise island, and of course the only time they move is when they have hooked a fish for the umpteenth time and it takes them downstream a bit, only to return to that very spot to do it all over again. Oh yeah,,,, that's fly fishing at its finest.

JP, I'm not necessarily directing this at you personally, just looking for clarification on this thread.

[JoeFin]

Seems to me a little communication never hurt no one. Personally I like talking to other folks while fly fishing. Some have shown me a few tricks, a few good places to go and some are down right descent folks.

Which brings me to my point. I have started out a good 50 yards upstream of a fellow fly fishing the same water figuring he would be working down river, where he told me he was working upstream and would I mind falling behind him. I was only too happy to fall behind him and continue on down the river

[Mark Kranhold]

Had this happen to me last year. Gear guy low holes me, I said are you kidding me! He looks up at me and didn't say anything, about 5 minutes later fish on and my hook up jumps out of the water about 20' from the low hole scum. I just laughed and thought karma comming at you low hole boy. That fish got the best of me and got away, but I was just glad he got splashed in the face :p It really pisses my off when you walk in a ways at o'dark and a couple casts in..low holer pops in right below me. I know there is other places to go but sometimes things need to be said. You never know what kind of day it's going to be or what things may be said.

[troutless]

I've had it happen both ways.

Gear guys step in below, right where my fly is swinging:

me: "uh, you guys know you're standing right where I'm fishing in about thirty seconds?"

them: "oh, really? Ok, we'll wait a bit". I fish through, they spend the next hour rooted to that spot which is (now) above me.

spey guy steps in below me:

me: "uh, did you see me swinging upstream of you?"

him: "well, (huff), I've been here all along I was just changing my tip, and started fishing after you stepped in above me."

no, dude, you weren't, I had to walk that bank to get upstream, and besides, I saw you park your freakin' car.

gear guys may not know, or, they may, and don't care.

spey guys, they know.

either way, it's a lose-lose situation. you let them do this, you are "educating" them, for the next time, that it is OK to engage in this behavior. you call it out, even politely, you are raising your blood pressure and possibly provoking a confrontation.

[donkeyhunter007]

I like to share my run and meet new people. i dont mind if someone steps in behind me. People use to line up shoulder to shoulder in some good steelhead and salmon runs.
They may not know what they do but the ones who do.......Karma will get those lowholers in another life.

Dont forget also that it is everyones river and people are going to enjoy the river differently.

My best friend from childhood is a baitfisherman. he throws his bait right where im swinging and for years I jus wanted to rip his throat out but now I just enjoy that i can go out and experience the glorious outdoors with my buddy. I realized he was having a great time while I was always upset fuming inside about his bad etiquette and cured roe. I catch more steel with flies than he does with bait so that helps.

[jbird]

I like to share my run and meet new people. i dont mind if someone steps in behind me. People use to line up shoulder to shoulder in some good steelhead and salmon runs.
They may not know what they do but the ones who do.......Karma will get those lowholers in another life.

Dont forget also that it is everyones river and people are going to enjoy the river differently.

My best friend from childhood is a baitfisherman. he throws his bait right where im swinging and for years I jus wanted to rip his throat out but now I just enjoy that i can go out and experience the glorious outdoors with my buddy. I realized he was having a great time while I was always upset fuming inside about his bad etiquette and cured roe. I catch more steel with flies than he does with bait so that helps.

Zactly!!! Great comments. I have had WAY more bad encounters with fly fishermen than gear guys.

[Charlie Gonzales]

Scott had a completly different attitude when he low holed me and a client/friend durring shad season; walking in and setting up dirrectly below my client. When I asked if he was really going to low hole us he told us that this was the spot he caught fish last night and thats where he was fishing tonight. My client/friend actualy packed up and left and fished a different spot.

Sound familiar Scott?

[Jed Peters]

Of course that ceases when I see the bastards pounding the redds at the Upper Sunrise island, and of course the only time they move is when they have hooked a fish for the umpteenth time and it takes them downstream a bit, only to return to that very spot to do it all over again. Oh yeah,,,, that's fly fishing at its finest.


I'll address two parts, as it seems there are a couple things rolling through your post:

1. Shad fishing is about being in the "bucket" but that doesn't mean a line up of flyfishermen should be shoulder to shoulder, as I see every year at upper sunrise (the two evenings or so I fish up there). This means a modicum of space should be expected, and in the instance I'm speaking about, Charlie and I were spaced out about 30' apart. The poster-perpetrator (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as he is a gear convert) came right in between us. You SHOULD be able to move (and should have to move) 10' up and down river, as the fish tend to move a little back and forth in the run, and one should be able to have a little "freedom" to do so. Close is okay (in fact, I asked charlie at the time if he minded that I come in 30' above him) but uncomfortably close is just ignorant, if not altogether rude.

2. Steelhead "swingers" who are really redd rapists. The same poster I'm talking about above is camped between sunrise and sailor on those reeds EVERY day of steelhead season picking boots op out of the river. His presence is confirmed by a local fly guide who said he was camped there on the redds EVERY DAY during steelhead season. Yes, if I personally saw him there, I would say something.

To give you an idea of how egregious this is--we were pulled over to the side during a drift eating a snack and taking a leak, and I literally had one of these spawners take my "bug-bead" as it was dangling over the side of the drift boat; no more than 10' away from the boat.

If you want to see the guys that really fish the river hard the way it should be fished, come down stream and find the real guys--Mark and Scott K, Joe P, and others, who actually swing runs where there are fish that are caught, not LINED. Also, look at the fish they (seldom) catch; they are chrome bright, aggressive, and pre-spawn.

[Darian]

Well, what may've started as a constructive thread is now circling the drain.... Still no solution to the problem. :(

[jbird]

Yup! Smells like steelhead season to me. :Headesk:

[Scott V]

Well, what may've started as a constructive thread is now circling the drain.... Still no solution to the problem. :(


And your surprised?

[Jed Peters]

Well, what may've started as a constructive thread is now circling the drain.... Still no solution to the problem. :(

Darian, there is always an easy solution to every problem....; neat, plausible and wrong.

I, for one, think this thread contains fantastic advice and examples of how NOT to be while on the river. This, more than any other post on the front page of this sub-forum, contains more valuable information that will allow fishing to be fun and thrive for all, than everything else I see.

[Darian]

Jed,.... With respect, you need to expand your perspective a bit. :cool:

[Jeff F]

Having lived in Sac for 20 years, and Eureka for a while too, I've seen many a low-holeing tool on the American and the Trinity. That being said.....with a little research, a Streamtime Map (Trinity), and most importantly.....a little exploring and walking/hiking, I never had any problems finding solitude on the Trinity. Yes, I usually fished below "the drift" but I usually ran into fish. The Trinity gets a bad rap for being combat fishing. And yes....it's deserved if you fish in the upper river. But man.....there is so much good water on that river it's not even funny.....IF you do some exploring. Hell, just drive downstream on Hwy 299 and if you see good water go fish it. No one is telling anyone to fish where the crowds are. That is a choice! Same, but to a lesser extent on the American where there is less water. But if there was a lineup at the Log Hole, I'd go downstream and fish the sweet water at the lower island in solitude. I guess it's a personal thing, but I'd rather catch a few fish in solitude than catch lots in a lineup.

[Charlie S]

Having fly fished California coastal rivers for 60 years I grew up not even knowing what low holing meant. I learned about cast and step when I started fishing Oregon, then Washington and then B.C. By the way, I really like the concept but it is going to take old age and death to change some of the old time fly flingers on the Gualala, Garcia, Navarro, etc. I remember some times guys would get to "their" spot on a river and post there for the entire tide or day. Some of this, I believe, was because instead of regular swinging the West Coasters always used shooting heads and mono shooting line which don't readily lend themselves to moving without tangling.

So, in explanation, the idea of not moving evolved from the methodology and instead of being considered a low holer, many are just taking an open position and don't (read will not) consider it to be rude. Explanations with those folks will result in ridicule or even really vulgar response. The "I've always done it this way and it works" mindset may be impossible to change until those who practice it fade away. Be careful with confrontation...too many of these grizzlies have teeth.

[ycflyfisher]

The mature part of my brain says walk away and ignore them, but my steelheader's brain tells me to let the low holer know he's lacking river etiquette. Next time I will have to decide.....
By the way, the lowholing event happened 40 miles down river from my home in Willow Creek, way out the Klamath, where it takes some traveling to get to, (not on the Trinity).

Norm,

The spot you're talking about is the only place I've been "low holed" on the Klamath. Ironic considering the level of effort it takes to get to that spot. It's happened to me twice. Once involved a guide and his clients and the other a situation identical to the one you described. I bit my tongue and walked away both times. None of the "culprits" who did this to me could cast worth a damn. 70 feet max for these guys. I was extremely tempted to fish down within 10 feet of the dude, wade another 5 feet out so I wasn't eating his backcasts and literally fish the water 10-15 feet below his casts before he had a chance to.