No Trespassing....

[Darian]

Just finished reading an article by Henry Cowen in the latest issue of Fly Fishing in Salt Waters titled, "Forbidden Waters". In this article he tells stories about places he's fished that were posted as off limits or no trespassing. The article isn't intended to point out specific places but does in some cases. I like the authors writing style and the stories he tells.

I found it nostalgic when I think about all of the places I've "snuck" into to fish over the course of my life. When I was a teenager, I snuck into and fished in ponds in a neighborhood cemetary and a couple of golf courses, parks and on a few private ponds. Not many trout involved but I molested a whole bunch of warm water fish. One of my favorite places to fish off was the breakwater at King Harbor in Redondo Beach when it was being constructed (the wire fence across it wasn't installed yet). My buddies and I would hike out to the first bend and start fishing there using artificial flies/lures. It was always good for Bonita and the occasional Barracuda or Yellowtail where the Edison outfall bubbled up.

Good times.... :cool:

[David Lee]

I hear ya .

Quite a few of my good spots have gone private over the years . Kind of difficult to see a sign and fence around a Pond you've enjoyed and looked after for a long time . I tend to take the "NO TREPASSING" sign as more of a suggestion , rather than a hard rule . And yes - I am aware that that would be illegal .

D.~

[JoeFin]

Question is are all of these "No Trespassing" signs legitimate

I've been told there are a great many rivers here in California which are basically "State Land". They can own the land right up to the river, but once your in the river bed your legal.

Also most of the "Gold Claims" on the rivers only grant them authority over removing minerals. As long as your fishing and not panning for gold you have as much right to be there as they do.

I only bring up these questions because there has been a growing trend to "Assume" certain Rights over public lands and post a bunch of "No Trespassing" signs when they don't actually have the right to deny you access. Of course I'm not talking about arguing the point of the barrel of a shot gun, but would more likely let the sheriff do my arguing for me should they brandish a weapon denying me access to State/Federal Lands

[Darian]

This thread wasn't intended to start a gripe session on legal rights.... Actually, I was trying to convey how much fun it was as a kid to sneak into some of those places, fish with a handline/bait and carry some sunnies home in your pocket while trying to get past the security guy at the gate without notice. I'm sure some of those guys probably knew what we were up to but got a kick out of watching a kid trying to walk and control fish in the pocket of our jackets.... Maybe they fished there after hours(???). :cool:

Back in those days law enforcement/security types were more likely to take you home, knock on your door and turn you over to your parents for some good ol' fashioned discipline than take you in for booking. Shows how much thing have changed with idiotic zero tolerance policies. ....Uhh, enough from me. :(

[Mike O]

Back in the day, taking you home would actually RESULT in some good ol' discipline. Nowadays, much of that discipline is delegated to others, because parents want to be their kids' friend.

As far as busting a no trespassing sign...it ain't the way I was raised. I sill won't hunt or fish private land (posted or not) without permission. Our private property rights are paramount to me.

[JoeFin]

I'm only asking the question - not trying to incite a fishing riot

I'm asking because I remember having a nice conversation with the owner of a gold claim up on the Trinity I met while passing through fishing. Now I see "Active Claim / No Trespassing" signs on obviously inactive claims. Kind of hard to miss the lack of heavy equipment, generators, and shaker tables. Have the BLM land use rules changed?

When I was much younger we used to 4 Wheel up Dry Creek into some fishing holes. The farmers are allowed to run their pumps into the creek and didn't seem to mind us being there other as long as we didn't harm the pumps

BTW: I met Willy Mayes while I had sunk into a 10 acre lake adjacent to a golf course in Sonoma County. Should of had him sign my rubber raft

[Darian]

OK, I give.... According to mining law (almost an ancient bit of federal law from 1872, I believe), claims need to be proved up once a year. Proving a claim involves doing something to try to uncover the minerals sought. On land (surface) claims it involves digging trenches at specific intervals, depths and length to sample the area. Not sure about placer claims but I'd say it's similar. So, if a claim is not proven up in the time limit provided the property owner may evict an take over the claim.

My grandfather moved to Sawyers Bar at the forks of the Salmon river in 1955 and established a claim for placer mining. He proved up his claim, annually, fished and hunted on subsistence for about 20 years before becoming too ill to live that way any longer. My parents and I had to go get/save him from the rough winters up there more than once but he always turned right around and went back.... All in all, a good life I'd say. :cool:

You might recall that the USFS and BLM have carried out enforcement actions in the Shasta Nat'l Forest about 20 years ago. It almost caused a riot and involved several years of litigation as supposed miners were establishing claims and building elaborate cabins while not proving up their claims. Ultimately, the squatters were evicted but not without a lot of effort. I only brought up this point to illustrate that what you might be seeing may or may not be a valid claim for now. But, even if it isn't, you may not know who the real owner of the property is and a lot of these guys are trigger happy, tweekers. Think the township across the Eel River from the forks of the main and south Eel River on old Hwy 101 (McCann??). Everybody there is packin'. What appears to be an abandoned claim/shack may indeed be a lab. So, think before proceeding to trespass in remote areas....

[Darian]

I hear ya Mike. I have to admit, I helped raise my son without using corporal punishment and tried to be his friend. He turned out pretty good in spite of my best efforts. Of course, he wasn't raised where I was in south-central L.A. Urban life there involved some form of trespass every day; sometimes trying to out run someone out to get you. in the 40's/50's, my posterior was the scene of many a paddling at the hands of my parents, coaches and school teachers. Not too many of the latter, tho. :cool:

In truth, both parents and school staff/teachers are so limited in what they can do to enforce discipline that it's probably not possible to use ol' fashioned discipline techniques without jeopardizing their futures.

I emphasize with law enforcement people today. Since almost everyone seems to be packing heat, they never know what to expect.... It's enough to make a guy paranoid. ;)

[JoeFin]

Sounds to me your Grandpa had it right

I hear ya on the Weott / Miranda area up on the Eel. In fact I lived in Eureka for a couple years, set choker, bucked logs in the woods, and fished about every river and creek in the many miles around the area. Was kind of hoping the medical marijuana thing would have driven most of those guys to go "Semi-legit" (indoors) instead of your average Meth-Head in the woods operation we used to run into occasionally.

I found the information I was looking for http://www.nationalrivers.org/states/ca-law.htm

When I was a kid sneaking into my favorite spot it wasn't so much getting caught by the rancher as it was getting treed by his bull

[Fubar]

So!! No trespassing doesn’t mean No trespassing? Instead it represents a romantic view of our youth of how cool we once were? So we can sit around and talk about our awesomeness when we ignored the law and disrespected other people’s property?
It all becomes clear now.
“No Littering” signs don’t really mean no littering.
“No Live Bait” signs don’t really mean no live bait.
“No Barbless Hooks” signs don’t really mean no barbless hooks.
“Zero Take” signs don’t really mean zero take.
Yada, Yada, Yada.

I guess next we will glamorize the good old days when we tagged and vandalized private property as well.

Mike O. Im with you. I guess it’s about how you were raised and how you raise your children. My sons and I still do not trespass today while hunting or fishing, but that was a behavior instilled from an early age.

I guess its just a time were people are trying to make fishing hip and edgy.

That is all.

[David Lee]

So!! No trespassing doesn’t mean No trespassing? Instead it represents a romantic view of our youth of how cool we once were? So we can sit around and talk about our awesomeness when we ignored the law and disrespected other people’s property?
It all becomes clear now.
“No Littering” signs don’t really mean no littering.
“No Live Bait” signs don’t really mean no live bait.
“No Barbless Hooks” signs don’t really mean no barbless hooks.
“Zero Take” signs don’t really mean zero take.
Yada, Yada, Yada.

I guess next we will glamorize the good old days when we tagged and vandalized private property as well.

Mike O. Im with you. I guess it’s about how you were raised and how you raise your children. My sons and I still do not trespass today while hunting or fishing, but that was a behavior instilled from an early age.

I guess its just a time were people are trying to make fishing hip and edgy.

That is all.

Yeah .... I'm sure you always drive the posted speed limit , too .

D.~

[Darian]

FUBAR,.... When you finally find time to stop clapping yourself on the back, remember what your handle really stands for.

Reminiscing about childhood memories doesn't rise to the level you seem to see things at or whether I or others my age violate any laws, or trespass deliberately in this time and place. Maybe you'll understand when you finally age a bit.

[jbird]

It turned out I was inadvertantly trespassing yesterday. I studied a map to find some remote access to a river. As I drove in I payed very close attention to any postings... there were none. As I was in the river, I hear an ATV pull up where my truck was. A man with a very young girl in his arms appears thru the trees. He asks me how the fishing was. We talked for several minutes before he said something about "property in the family". I sheepishly tell him I didnt see any postings on the way in and ask if its a private road. He gives me a Clint Eastwood squint and finally says, "so you didnt get permission to come out here"? I said no, I found it on a map, I didnt see a sign or a house or any indication it was private. He assured me it was and our conversation dropped like a cold rock. I say, "No problem, I apologize. I'll go park at the hwy bridge" 1/2 mile upstream.

I guess my youthful rebellion lives on...

[Bob G]

Hey Darian -

I found the nostalgia so very enjoyable!

Thank you for sharing.

Bob

[wineslob]

It turned out I was inadvertantly trespassing yesterday. I studied a map to find some remote access to a river. As I drove in I payed very close attention to any postings... there were none. As I was in the river, I hear an ATV pull up where my truck was. A man with a very young girl in his arms appears thru the trees. He asks me how the fishing was. We talked for several minutes before he said something about "property in the family". I sheepishly tell him I didnt see any postings on the way in and ask if its a private road. He gives me a Clint Eastwood squint and finally says, "so you didnt get permission to come out here"? I said no, I found it on a map, I didnt see a sign or a house or any indication it was private. He assured me it was and our conversation dropped like a cold rock. I say, "No problem, I apologize. I'll go park at the hwy bridge" 1/2 mile upstream.

I guess my youthful rebellion lives on...


Been there, done that, though it's been a long time.
I do believe the 'High Water Mark" of streams and rivers, is a no ownership area. There is a piece of property on the NFF that I looked at buying at one time. It included 200' of river front, but only to the high water mark and not the river bed.

[DLJeff]

While I don't like it, I typically respect a private landowner's right to restrict access. I totally disagree with the laws that say the landowner owns the river bottom or any riparian below the high water mark. But having seen some of the trash and damage done by inconsiderate anglers I can understand the landowners position.

But what I really cannot stand is the private consortiums buying up river access and then stocking it with a bunch of triploid, pellet fed, sacks of sand they call trout. Then they publish fancy color brochures of people holding those big lumps of useless trout and stating what a fantastic job they're doing protecting the river and the fishery. And then they sell club memberships for outrageous amounts of money. Now those places deserve every trespasser they get and any time I get a chance I'll poach their triploid sacks of trout and feed them to the local critters.

[mems]

Aloha Darian, I liked you attempt to stir some fond memories from our delinquent youths. I love reading Mark Twain and my younger days were much like Tom and Huck's fishing and sailing and enjoying life in the south. Fishing on private water was a great way to fish some wonderful places and you couldn't beat the crowds. Here in Hawaii we have many places that are Kapu, off limits to fishing, like hawaiian fishing ponds. I like to fish the ponds, and let everything go. Sometimes I have gotten permission to fish the ponds, but I wish they were designated catch and release so that families, especially young children would have a place to catch fish and learn something about the natural environment. Trespassing out west can have some serious consequences. Property rights, water rights and people poaching are all hot topics. Each state seems to have a different take on it, high water mark, stream bed etc. It is sad that some people took exception to your attempt to rekindle those old memories. My Grandad always said the best tasting watermelon was the one you stole! Mems.

[Darian]

Aloha Don,.... Good to hear from you. I guess a lot of folks on this BB aren't old enough to have those types of memories, at least they don't seem to care much about them. Still fun to me. I'm a fan of Mark Twain, too. Hvaing done more than my share of griping, I understand the need to vent but that doesn't usually lead to much of anything useful.

Back in the early 50's ( I was about 10 years old then) my Dad introduced me to climbing down a trail on some very steep cliffs at the Palos Verdes peninsula in SoCal (seemed straight up and down to me). Rocky beaches, clear water and inshore kelp beds. In those days it was entirely possible to catch 6-7 different types of perch and kelp fish. In those days everyone fished with conventional gear, were constantly losing sinkers and re-rigging after each fish. Bait was shrimp, mussels or frozen green peas. It was so untouched, you could still pick legal abalone in the surf zone. Then we had to haul our catch back up the trail. Unless it was undersize, everything caught was cooked and ate (no catch/release, no waste).

Even so, I guess we're paying now for that gift back then. Still, I wouldn't trade those memories of climbing down those cliffs and fishing with my Dad. :cool:

[Mike McKenzie]

. It is sad that some people took exception to your attempt to rekindle those old memories. My Grandad always said the best tasting watermelon was the one you stole! Mems.

I was thinkin' that I'd post a story about my trespassin' misspent youth, then the thread kinda' went south (for me anyway) until Mems jogged my memory with his remark about watermelons... One of my fondest memories is from back in the day when automobiles had external bumpers and fenders. One could place their feet on the front bumper and sit in the "valley" between the fender and the hood in relative "safety". This was the key to our watermelon heists!
One of "our" summer efforts was to get set up by two of us sittin' in the "valley" on each side of the hood as we would sit alongside the hiway over the Altimont Pass between Tracy and Livermore and wait for a watermelon truck makin' a delivery over the hill to the bay area.

Those old farm trucks were pretty slow goin' over the pass because they were probably overloaded with as much as they could carry.. The driver would creep up behind the truck and one of us would climb up on the tail rack while the other would grab the watermelon that was handed to him which he would set it in the "valley" while another was being grabbed. We always stopped at two. We had infinite trust in whoever was driving at the time (it was part of the "code" that we would all take turns, sorta' spread the risk, so to speak!) As Mems Grandad said..them watermelons sure tasted good!

Well that story told, I guess I might as well tell my trespassin' story too! It took place on public utility property which made it OK in our book because "we" being part of the public, owned it!

Going back to when the Bay area was first settled there were many creeks that drained into the Bay that were home to steelhead runs. Back in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries a few of them were dammed as water supply for the burgeoning cities of Oakland, Berkeley and Richmond. When the two largest creeks, San Pablo and San Leandro Creeks were dammed remnant populations of steelhead became "landlocked" behind the Dams where they have survived since (as far As I know anyway, I think they still have viewing platforms in Oakland's Redwood Park for watching the spawners that migrate up out of Upper San Leandro Resevoir)
As a kid I was a virtual David Duncan ( as in the first chapter of him prowling the the water east of Portland in his book "My Story As Told by Water") At the tender age of 6 or 7 I "discovered" steelhead smolts in Redwood Creek while my folks were visiting friends that lived in Redwood Canyon. That discovery created an almost fanatical passion in me for such a little kid. From that day on I climbed, crawled, creeped, plowed and waded, through brush, Blackberry vines, Nettles and Greasewood lookin' for fish in most of the East Bay Creeks.
The older I got the further I went and this is where my trespassin' story starts. Somewhere back in the 20's or so, the water supply dams and all the country that drained into them became property of the newly formed East Bay Municipal Utility District or as commonly known to folks thereabout, East Bay MUD. Because all the land was domestic watershed it was off limits to us mere mortals, signs were everywhere.. NO TRESPASSING!

Needless to say that as kid, knowing those lands and their creeks were full of "trout" as we called 'em then, those signs became part of a cat and mouse game between a couple of my closest friends and I and EBMUD. Most of the 1950's we spent fishin' those creeks and hidin' in the brush from the EBMUD patrolman. We caught many "trout" out of those creeks. The best fish came from upper San Leandro Creek above the Canyon Store or Bear Creek (now under Briones Reservoir) and upper San Pablo Creek at what used to be the "Orinda Crossroads". Yes, back in those days the idea was to bring home somethin' to eat and that we did!
Some of my life's best memories are of cold, foggy and wet February days fishin' those creeks full of spawners!
I can still smell the wet brush, Bay Laurel Trees (unique pungent odor) Redwood trees and oak leaf mold!
While I doubt things are still the same as they were, I have to believe that those fish still exist in some of those protected wild places that exist behind those NO TRESPASSING signs that were my ultimate challenge back then!!

Mike

[Darian]

Great story Mike. My faith in wayward youth is now restored. ;) Thanks for sharing. :cool:

[Jeff F]

I got cited for "trespassing" on the MF American a while back. My second run-in with that shotgun-toting tool who has the mining club / fishing club down below Oxbow. I was in the middle of the river fishing (after the daily pulse flows, so the water was low). He said he owns the bedrock under the river and that I was trespassing. High-water mark arguments do not work with him. So, he calls his buddy, the local deputy, and I'm cited. He never showed up in court and the case was thrown out.

I discussed this issue with the late Bill Carnazzo back then and was told that this guy claims he has a deed from the 1880's or something that gives him ownership of the river down there. Bill had many run-ins with him too. To this day, I don't think this issue has been resolved. So just a word of warning.....if you go fish below Oxbow. This guy will point his gun at you until you leave or the sheriff gets there.

[neil]

Mike, thanks so much for that story. Your description of plying the waters 'owned' by EBMUD brought back many fond memories of my own, albiet 40 years after yours.

Redwood Creek through Canyon always had nice pocket water loaded with trout. I remember pulling one out that had a huge bite out of his back from a racoon or some sort of critter.

Bear Creek above San Pablo Dam reservoir always had epic winter fishing. I seem to recall fishing on Thanksgiving and/or Christmas, to lessen our chances of getting caught. Always conventional gear, as this was 20 years before I touched a fly rod. We would wade the creek until we were on the verge of hypothermia, then run back to the car to warm up, and repeat.

Anyway, lots of fond fishing memories, made all the sweeter because it was illegal.



I was thinkin' that I'd post a story about my trespassin' misspent youth, then the thread kinda' went south (for me anyway) until Mems jogged my memory with his remark about watermelons... One of my fondest memories is from back in the day when automobiles had external bumpers and fenders. One could place their feet on the front bumper and sit in the "valley" between the fender and the hood in relative "safety". This was the key to our watermelon heists!
One of "our" summer efforts was to get set up by two of us sittin' in the "valley" on each side of the hood as we would sit alongside the hiway over the Altimont Pass between Tracy and Livermore and wait for a watermelon truck makin' a delivery over the hill to the bay area.

Those old farm trucks were pretty slow goin' over the pass because they were probably overloaded with as much as they could carry.. The driver would creep up behind the truck and one of us would climb up on the tail rack while the other would grab the watermelon that was handed to him which he would set it in the "valley" while another was being grabbed. We always stopped at two. We had infinite trust in whoever was driving at the time (it was part of the "code" that we would all take turns, sorta' spread the risk, so to speak!) As Mems Grandad said..them watermelons sure tasted good!

Well that story told, I guess I might as well tell my trespassin' story too! It took place on public utility property which made it OK in our book because "we" being part of the public, owned it!

Going back to when the Bay area was first settled there were many creeks that drained into the Bay that were home to steelhead runs. Back in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries a few of them were dammed as water supply for the burgeoning cities of Oakland, Berkeley and Richmond. When the two largest creeks, San Pablo and San Leandro Creeks were dammed remnant populations of steelhead became "landlocked" behind the Dams where they have survived since (as far As I know anyway, I think they still have viewing platforms in Oakland's Redwood Park for watching the spawners that migrate up out of Upper San Leandro Resevoir)
As a kid I was a virtual David Duncan ( as in the first chapter of him prowling the the water east of Portland in his book "My Story As Told by Water") At the tender age of 6 or 7 I "discovered" steelhead smolts in Redwood Creek while my folks were visiting friends that lived in Redwood Canyon. That discovery created an almost fanatical passion in me for such a little kid. From that day on I climbed, crawled, creeped, plowed and waded, through brush, Blackberry vines, Nettles and Greasewood lookin' for fish in most of the East Bay Creeks.
The older I got the further I went and this is where my trespassin' story starts. Somewhere back in the 20's or so, the water supply dams and all the country that drained into them became property of the newly formed East Bay Municipal Utility District or as commonly known to folks thereabout, East Bay MUD. Because all the land was domestic watershed it was off limits to us mere mortals, signs were everywhere.. NO TRESPASSING!

Needless to say that as kid, knowing those lands and their creeks were full of "trout" as we called 'em then, those signs became part of a cat and mouse game between a couple of my closest friends and I and EBMUD. Most of the 1950's we spent fishin' those creeks and hidin' in the brush from the EBMUD patrolman. We caught many "trout" out of those creeks. The best fish came from upper San Leandro Creek above the Canyon Store or Bear Creek (now under Briones Reservoir) and upper San Pablo Creek at what used to be the "Orinda Crossroads". Yes, back in those days the idea was to bring home somethin' to eat and that we did!
Some of my life's best memories are of cold, foggy and wet February days fishin' those creeks full of spawners!
I can still smell the wet brush, Bay Laurel Trees (unique pungent odor) Redwood trees and oak leaf mold!
While I doubt things are still the same as they were, I have to believe that those fish still exist in some of those protected wild places that exist behind those NO TRESPASSING signs that were my ultimate challenge back then!!

Mike

[jbird]

This is a really cool thread! Keep it going! I have too many hooligan stories to keep them all straight!

[Jeff F]

Is the Fishing any good down there... I hear they have quite a few menbers.. Some came into sportsmans when I worked there.. Most appeared to be screened to have not much Fly Fishing under their belt....

Frank, he's got some sweet water down there, and the fishing is great. There were some guys from the old NCFFB who were members and they said it's damn good. From what I heard, he charges like $100/yr or something to join. Not sure if that is still going on though.

[Frank Alessio]

Jeff..

I might be wrong but I believe one of the members that I picked out flys for said it was $1000.00 per year and there was a cap on the number of Members...I know some nice Browns come out of the area near there... I also heard of a non-member that floats right through it fishing on a regular basis...

Thanks Frank

[BenFishin]

I got cited for "trespassing" on the MF American a while back. My second run-in with that shotgun-toting tool who has the mining club / fishing club down below Oxbow. I was in the middle of the river fishing (after the daily pulse flows, so the water was low). He said he owns the bedrock under the river and that I was trespassing. High-water mark arguments do not work with him. So, he calls his buddy, the local deputy, and I'm cited. He never showed up in court and the case was thrown out.

I discussed this issue with the late Bill Carnazzo back then and was told that this guy claims he has a deed from the 1880's or something that gives him ownership of the river down there. Bill had many run-ins with him too. To this day, I don't think this issue has been resolved. So just a word of warning.....if you go fish below Oxbow. This guy will point his gun at you until you leave or the sheriff gets there.

HI Jeff, had to be a bit more than a while back. I took over the property for a year back in '07 so it had to be at least a year before that. The fella you probably ran into was Dennis Raff and I met him in a similar fashion....this was back in '95. I eventually looked him up and became a member. I figured with security that good, I needed to see what was downstream. And fishing was good....

We had some really good times down there when it was a gold mining club. I was one of a only a couple fisherman in the group. Every once in a awile, we'd charter a helicopter and have them drop us off downstream and we'd fish our way back

The county eventually kicked out the gold mining club for building permanant structures and having year round tentants. But the breaking point is when the clampers held their annual event and someone got drunk, they start rock climbing and had a major fall requiring an helicopter evac. The lid was blown off the place at that point with emergency response/public safety issues being realized and called attention to.

The property sat idle for a year in which I became somewhat of a caretaker while the owner tried to decide what to do with the property. We did some surveys, cleaned up the place and restored mcuh of it back to it's natural settings. We also did a lot of fishing

All the structures where removed. Here's a link to some interesting info to get in idea what it looked like before all that work was done. http://goldprospectingwithminerreb.weebly.com/horseshoe-bar-american-river.html

After that Tom Bartos and I ran the property as co-tentants for a period of a year. He took it over full time back in 2009 and has done a fantastic job at managing the property as a fly fishing only club every since.
http://www.horseshoebarpreserve.com/fly-fishing-american-river/

Every year Tom host's wounded warrior event down at the property which as been really succesful

Sorry to get sidetracked on the thread but thought I'd chime in

[JoeFin]

I was in the middle of the river fishing (after the daily pulse flows, so the water was low). He said he owns the bedrock under the river and that I was trespassing. High-water mark arguments do not work with him. So, he calls his buddy, the local deputy, and I'm cited. He never showed up in court and the case was thrown out.

You bet he doesn't show up in court

The Federal Laws that protect navigation/access of these rivers predates and supersedes property laws. Check the link I posted. there is a National Organization with Pro Bono Attorneys that defends these access rights and your buddy Deputy Barny Phife knew it

[Jeff F]

HI Jeff, had to be a bit more than a while back. I took over the property for a year back in '07 so it had to be at least a year before that. The fella you probably ran into was Dennis Raff and I met him in a similar fashion....this was back in '95. I eventually looked him up and became a member. I figured with security that good, I needed to see what was downstream. And fishing was good....

We had some really good times down there when it was a gold mining club. I was one of a only a couple fisherman in the group. Every once in a awile, we'd charter a helicopter and have them drop us off downstream and we'd fish our way back

The county eventually kicked out the gold mining club for building permanant structures and having year round tentants. But the breaking point is when the clampers held their annual event and someone got drunk, they start rock climbing and had a major fall requiring an helicopter evac. The lid was blown off the place at that point with emergency response/public safety issues being realized and called attention to.

The property sat idle for a year in which I became somewhat of a caretaker while the owner tried to decide what to do with the property. We did some surveys, cleaned up the place and restored mcuh of it back to it's natural settings. We also did a lot of fishing

All the structures where removed. Here's a link to some interesting info to get in idea what it looked like before all that work was done. http://goldprospectingwithminerreb.weebly.com/horseshoe-bar-american-river.html

After that Tom Bartos and I ran the property as co-tentants for a period of a year. He took it over full time back in 2009 and has done a fantastic job at managing the property as a fly fishing only club every since.
http://www.horseshoebarpreserve.com/fly-fishing-american-river/

Every year Tom host's wounded warrior event down at the property which as been really succesful

Sorry to get sidetracked on the thread but thought I'd chime in

Aaaah....Hey Ben. I remember you from the NCFFB. Good to hear from you. And yeah.....I do recall they had some use permit issues down there, now that you mention it. Glad to hear about the property. Good on you!

So....just curious......did the guy's deed actually say he owned the river bottom?

[BenFishin]

So....just curious......did the guy's deed actually say he owned the river bottom?

yes, as I recall....the property which is over 750 acres, encompases both sides of the river for a couple miles with the exception of a small land locked parcel on the southeast side

[DFrink]

FYI, lot's of littoral owners deeds cover the bed of rivers. It doesn't mean they own it, just means whomever prepared the deed either thought they owned it, hoped this would give them some evidence of ownership, or didn't know what they were doing. The State was granted all of the submerged lands of navigable waterways when it was accepted into the union in 1850. You won't find a "list" of what is considered a navigable waterway. It takes hours, days, and even lifetimes to try and prove ownership rights on some of the more complicated water bodies in our State. Often times if in dispute either an agreement is reached between the State and private upland owners or the courts must get involved.

[k9mark]

[QUOTE=Jeff F;137516]I got cited for "trespassing" on the MF American a while back. My second run-in with that shotgun-toting tool who has the mining club / fishing club down below Oxbow. I was in the middle of the river fishing (after the daily pulse flows, so the water was low). He said he owns the bedrock under the river and that I was trespassing. High-water mark arguments do not work with him. So, he calls his buddy, the local deputy, and I'm cited. He never showed up in court and the case was thrown out.

I discussed this issue with the late Bill Carnazzo back then and was told that this guy claims he has a deed from the 1880's or something that gives him ownership of the river down there. Bill had many run-ins with him too. To this day, I don't think this issue has been resolved. So just a word of warning.....if you go fish below Oxbow. This guy will point his gun at you until you leave or the sheriff gets

.....I would caution that fellow about pointing guns at people he doesn't know....could be some off duty officer might not take a liking to that....

[Mike O]

Or someone following the law and carrying concealed while fishing

[Mike O]

FYI, lot's of littoral owners deeds cover the bed of rivers. It doesn't mean they own it, just means whomever prepared the deed either thought they owned it, hoped this would give them some evidence of ownership, or didn't know what they were doing. The State was granted all of the submerged lands of navigable waterways when it was accepted into the union in 1850. You won't find a "list" of what is considered a navigable waterway. It takes hours, days, and even lifetimes to try and prove ownership rights on some of the more complicated water bodies in our State. Often times if in dispute either an agreement is reached between the State and private upland owners or the courts must get involved.

Try fishing Pleasant Valley Creek, by Markleeville. They take a dim view of people wading their "private creek"