Klamath...Now?

[BobVP]

I've never fished the Klamath this early in the year (or, this late, depending on how you look at it...) and I realize the lack of cold water release is taking a toll....But, my in-laws have us along on one of their gold mining trips at a claim downstream of Happy Camp and above Somes Bar this coming week.

So two questions: Should I be fishing there now...the "should" being is it ethical with the possible stress to the fish? and, If it does seem to be okay to fish there now: Are there any fish and what should I target? Early steel?

Thanks to you folks that know these things,

Bob

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I would bet the water up that far near Happy Camp is cooler than the lower river.



I just perfer going in October so I know the water is cooler, but not too cold yet.

[Norman B]

Currently there are 3 large and growing forest fires in the area.
The smoke is thick in the area of Somes Bar, and it has made it difficult to breath.
The fires will last until at least mid September, and will end when it rains.
The water temps are still very high, and there is significant algae in the water.
I would not advise fishing in that area for a while.

[goby]

I bet the smoke is bad. The smoke was bad yesterday in Trinity County too.

[BobVP]

Thanks for the info...think I'll read a lot while they thrash the water for gold.

[Terry Thomas]

The water temp @ Orleans is pushing 72. Just returned from the lower Klamath and the water temp at first light was 72.6. By the afternoon the temps were over 73. The mouth has been pushed closed by high tides the past two days. Not sure if it opened last night. The conventional guides have found close to zero salmon for their clients each day. Lots of half pounders in the system. With the high water temps, it's a good thing the bulk of the salmon run has remained in the ocean.

[Terry Thomas]

For those who stay on the lower Klamath, the Steelhead Lodge in Klamath Glen is now closed. They are building a casino and Holiday Inn Express in the town of Klamath on 101.

[Jed Peters]

The water temp @ Orleans is pushing 72. Just returned from the lower Klamath and the water temp at first light was 72.6. By the afternoon the temps were over 73. The mouth has been pushed closed by high tides the past two days. Not sure if it opened last night. The conventional guides have found close to zero salmon for their clients each day. Lots of half pounders in the system. With the high water temps, it's a good thing the bulk of the salmon run has remained in the ocean.

Great update terry! Thank you for that....

[Darian]

"For those who stay on the lower Klamath, the Steelhead Lodge in Klamath Glen is now closed. They are building a casino and Holiday Inn Express in the town of Klamath on 101."

Amazing!!!! Is that correct???.... Building a casino and hotel near the mouth of the Klamath. Are there any sewage facilities up there?? I don't see much of anything positive coming out of that development. :confused:

[Garfly]

It is going to be a "small" casino and it is away from the water. They will provide much needed nice lodging AND food opportunities.That area might have a hard time building any thing large since it is too far for casual hit and run casino use...
Believe me, the Yurok are not into fouling their nest and their commerce/food supply....let's shift that fear and fight to the corporations like monsanto,fracking companies
etc... who might truly deserve our disgust.

I was up there last week visiting a tribal elder and a friend who works for the tribal fisheries .....and yes, the mouth did close up right before the full moon....AND the sportfishing/snaggers seemed to be catching a lot more than the tribal nets since not many fish were coming in yet...Peace

[Darian]

Garfly,.... I'm not against the tribes benefitting from responsible development/gaming or fisherman benefitting from having a local place to stay. Not sure this fits the definition of responsible. Why not place the development in a populated area where it's more likely to maximize proceeds and connect to existing sewage treatment facilities (e.g. Arcata, Eureka, Willow Creek)?? A casino/hotel anywhere up there has to have some method of disposing of sewage/waste water. I'm not finding your assurances that the development is not near the water very comforting. The fact that prior developments up there apparently didn't have any sewage facilities doesn't speak well for the past record. I'm hoping the tribes address this concern during project planning but....

As to your assertion that the tribes wouldn't foul their nest, I'm not sure how long you've been going into that area but I recall that there used to be a dump near the junction of the road to Johnson's and Hwy 96 just outside of Weitchpec where everyone (Hoopas/Yuroks) dumped everything they didn't want down the bank into the lower Klamath. I've heard that this dumping area was cleaned up since I last saw it but I still have a strong memory of it. Also, it hasn't been that long ago when tribal members drove their worn out cars/trucks into the brush or a dry wash and abandoned them to leak and rust into oblivion (maybe they still do that{????}). So, in that way, the tribes are no different than we are.

Maybe the prospect of gambling revenues out weigh the needs of their fishery. After all, every tribal member shares in the proceeds don't they??? This is not a condemnation of the tribal efforts. Maybe the potential revenues from gaming are much more attractive/lucrative than money from their fisheries....

[Bruce Slightom]

The new casino is being constructed in the town of Klamath. http://www.yuroktribe.org/resort/index.htm. This is going up next to the new tribal headquarters so I am assuming that there is some sort of treatment plant that is handling the waste.

The dump that Darian referred to, along with the one by Roach Creek were cleaned up a few years ago. The cars are a different story.

Funding for the casino came from a settlement called the Nez Perce Settlement. One of the draw backs to this is that the Tribe is pursuing the purchase of the Blue Creek watershed from Green Diamond Co. Western Rivers and the State are involved as well. The State has backed off a bit when the Tribe did not put any of the wind fall towards the watershed project. Will have to wait and see how it shakes out.

[Darian]

Just by way of info, here's a link to a website about the project:

http://500nations.com/casinos/caYurokCasino.asp

[Garfly]

Thank you for your reply,let's hope that an updated facility has updated services /and or engineered systems! I still assume that their heritage of having the salmon as their main commerce for thousands of years is paramount--Heckfire I was looking at buying property where the Navarro River met the ocean and the realtor informed me that the building codes could even tell you what colors you could paint your structure.....so I would bet that a new "visible"facility( not a crawdad shack that has been there for centuries ) will be scrutinized by Cali's( love them when they are good AND hate them when they are a pain in the arse! ) codes of building protection??

On another note ,I'm gonna pop the top off a six pack of 16 oz. tall boys- type O' can O' worms.....Yup ,you take away a cultures heritage ,religion,and their sustainable way of life since time immemorial, and tell them they will be punished for following their cultures, tradition and for speaking their language(can't they just "speak American?"Ha!-LOL)...and tell them the state dictates their number of salmon harvest;then there is no telling what will happen-They might even entertain an easy diet like some of us whitebreads:like pepsi,poptarts,and hot pockets....Yes, there are no easy answers to progress...and I hope that most agree that if you appreciate the Creators web of life we should step into big changes with our pinky toe,as if our life depended on it(which it does).

Imagine if we took away the "rights" of oil companies, banksters,and wall street manipulators from harvesting and exploiting our dollars and environment to the full unbridled extent that they have been enabled to do? We have privatized their gargantuan profits and socialized their losses with subsidies and bailouts....Give these ravenous pigs some regulations with teeth and they might turn into a pack of rabid entitled hairless dogs,ready to infect and destroy anyone who gets in their way of destruction with divisive propaganda.....(Ya' like Dags??).Oooops, I think that is already happenin'?AND I digress, AND turn scattershot ,as if I am in a creative writing class...Sorry, let's bury those worms back in the ground! --.Back to reality,we should ALL truly walk softly as we "develop" our home of Mother Earth!{nuthin'wrong with with making money and doing well!,just be sustainable,don't exploit and protect resources for the future!}....And yes ,I truly appreciate learning about the ups and downs of a new area(the Rekwoi)...from those that are more knowledgeable of it than I.....and I thank you for your information.

[Darian]

garfly,.... Not sure I know how to respond to that post. ;)

First, the proposed facility at Klamath looks like it's going to be quite nice, from the artists impression.

Now, it kinda sounds like you're romanticizing the "connection" to heritage of California Native Americans. While they're very spiritual, their rapid acceptance/embracing of Las Vegas style gambling, casinos, hotels and entertainment indicates that they're not incapable of adapting to modern ways when given an opportunity. Up to the point where Indian gaming was legalized, their commerce wasn't able to offset many of the social problems and poverty associated with reservation life at that time. So, gaming was/is an attractive/lucrative pursuit.

I believe that Native Americans are a not a lot different than everyone else when it comes to money matters; including feelings of greed and avarice. You might recall that after starting a casino/hotel a tribe in the Clear Lake area started culling the tribal rolls to maximize profits for those "true" Natives remaining on the rolls and in power. Of course, that act was the cause of a lot hostility and resulted in tribal factions driving around in pick-up trucks wielding/firing of semi-auto weapons at each other. The Lake County Sheriffs Office had to disarm people and stop the violence. It's been reported that culling tribal rolls has been happening all over the state. So, while I acknowledge that Native Americans have spiritual connections to the past, I don't see that connection to be the same as you do.

[Garfly]

Ha!! ...nice response to a wacky frustrated rant--While I don't quite agree to the blanket statement of "they"--{like those that say:We don't need to give Natives nuthin' cause they got all them casinos!!...=/kinda like: no anglo needs help or any restitution for anything since we got Bill Gates and Trump,Waltons,etc,so we all be rich!?}.... But Yeah, you are totally correct that the greed of some, in all factions of life, have created animosity and exploited resources(human and natural...) And yes we are all susceptible to greed,etc... Let's just hope(and I strongly believe) that the Yurok will ,in the end ,do a good job of keeping their home as sustainable as possible during these new changes of progress. This is of course difficult with many different people with ideas as to what changes to make...... I believe a resource is best protected by slow calculated progress and the fear of sewage problems in a NEW facility of this magnitude is unfounded for it is clearly impossible to let it open without it being up to code.

AND- on a positive note-- I invite anyone on this board to come out to Sycamore Park for the CallingBack the Salmon.org ceremony on Oct.12,13,and 14th.;for the Maidu are putting on a fantastic/fun/spiritual event with the spearing of a salmon after the sunrise ceremony on sat .and a free salmon feed at noon(donations are appreciated for this "unrecognized tribe")...and FANTASTIC World music on all three days,along with elders circles.healing circles,etc,etc.....

This event can be heard on KVMR.org FM 89.5 on all three days.,or by browsing: indigenouspeoplesdays.org ( I have learned a tremendous amount about respect,etc...from being able to hang out with these local Maidu guys for the past 6-7 years...and helping with this ceremony)...I cannot recommend enough for anyone interested to at least mark their calender ,to remind them to turn on their radio to KVMR for ALL of these three days!--Fish on and Peace out!

[Darian]

Garfly,.... Is the Sycamore Park you refer to along the Yuba River??? I'd like to try to attend that festival. :cool:

[Garfly]

Yes sir, our local lower Yuba park! Sorry I meant to specify that...not as bad as trying to find out which "rock creek,bear whatever,etc".
You can look up Indigenouspeoplesdays.com and callingbackthesalmon.org for times of events/music schedule,etc...AND pictures-
It took my Maidu friend Jason Reyburg 4 years to finally spear his salmon with the handmade spear that he made with bilateral antler tips (attached to handmade jute chord,etc) Grayson went to the museum and copied Ishi's design on the spears since the knowledge was lost on how to make them,since they have been unable to fish the river and perform this Religous Ceremony in 150 years...Their ears( the Maidu people) got a bounty of $50, I believe at some point in history...so they definitely stayed out of the river bottoms avoiding cantankerous miners,etc. They filled out paperwork 7 years ago with F&G and are allowed one salmon per year to be speared in the traditional way...with the stipulation that a male should be targeted ,if at all possible. This is enough for their ceremony,which along with other things,thanks the Creator for the salmon,thanks the Salmon for arriving,and asks them to come back again to feed the people...We are all allowed to walk/meditate/pray in the ceremonial circle, after it is done{NO mechanical devices allowed during the ceremony}You will have to come check it out for more info than that!--btw ,they get the rest of the salmon from the Feather River hatchery(post spawn)...Although Murky Oliver did bring some Klamath River gorgeous fish one year and cooked them traditionally on redwood stakes!!!YUM!... Hope to see Ya there.

[Don Powell]

Yes sir, our local lower Yuba park! Sorry I meant to specify that...not as bad as trying to find out which "rock creek,bear whatever,etc".
You can look up Indigenouspeoplesdays.com and callingbackthesalmon.org for times of events/music schedule,etc...AND pictures-
It took my Maidu friend Jason Reyburg 4 years to finally spear his salmon with the handmade spear that he made with bilateral antler tips (attached to handmade jute chord,etc) Grayson went to the museum and copied Ishi's design on the spears since the knowledge was lost on how to make them,since they have been unable to fish the river and perform this Religous Ceremony in 150 years...Their ears( the Maidu people) got a bounty of $50, I believe at some point in history...so they definitely stayed out of the river bottoms avoiding cantankerous miners,etc. They filled out paperwork 7 years ago with F&G and are allowed one salmon per year to be speared in the traditional way...with the stipulation that a male should be targeted ,if at all possible. This is enough for their ceremony,which along with other things,thanks the Creator for the salmon,thanks the Salmon for arriving,and asks them to come back again to feed the people...We are all allowed to walk/meditate/pray in the ceremonial circle, after it is done{NO mechanical devices allowed during the ceremony}You will have to come check it out for more info than that!--btw ,they get the rest of the salmon from the Feather River hatchery(post spawn)...Although Murky Oliver did bring some Klamath River gorgeous fish one year and cooked them traditionally on redwood stakes!!!YUM!... Hope to see Ya there.

The "primitive" peoples lived in harmony with their universe for millenia... the "superior" western Europeans with all their inventiveness and ideas have destroyed the abundance of North America in less than 400 years... to me whose approach to living life is startlingly clear...

[Don Powell]

Because of all that I have witnessed and read about, I am occasionally very ashamed to have white skin... but then again, I am so very proud to have the spirit of those who were not so obsessed with profit but more about the survival of the universe, that I am a kindred spirit... skin color is not the issue- greed is the issue!

[aaron]

Don speaks, I listen. Well said.

[troutless]

The "primitive" peoples lived in harmony with their universe for millenia...



Well, I suppose, if you leave out the early North American immigrants (q.v., extinction: North American megafauna, South American megafauna), Polynesians (q.v., Hawaiian forest clearance), aboriginal Australians (q.v., Australian grassland destruction), and Maori (q.v., Moa). So, also taking out Europe and Asia, for obvious reasons, that leaves, pretty much, Africa.



the "superior" western Europeans with all their inventiveness and ideas have destroyed the abundance of North America in less than 400 years... to me whose approach to living life is startlingly clear...


Primitive peoples did not live "in harmony" with their "universe" any more than any other species...they expanded to reach equilibrium with the carrying capacity of their environment. When that carrying capacity reduced suddenly, populations reduced or collapsed, and there are quite a few examples where a case can be made a collapse was precipitated or exacerbated by the environmentally destructive practices of supposedly-harmonious primitive peoples : possibly Easter Island, possibly the ancestral Pueblans ("Anasazi"), possibly the Mayans.

I'm no anthropologist, but I'd guess you don't see these sorts of episodes in hunter-gatherer societies because without agriculture it is not possible to produce enough of a population surplus to do serious local environmental damage.

What distinguishes Western European society is (1) superior technology thus superior destructive capability, (2) unique hindsight provided by historical and paleontological resources, (3) it has not, yet, reached its carrying capacity, thus not, yet, collapsed. Whether (2) is of any use in avoiding (3) is yet to be seen.

[Darian]

Good perspective. I'm not not going to say that I'm ashamed that I'm white. I don't live my life in a manner that's disrespectful of others. But, there's no question that we (white Americans) committed monstrous physical/economic atrocities against native Americans in the past with some economic/political issues continuing into the present (e.g. copper/uranium mines on the Navajo Res., etc.). Regardless, it seems to me that they were portrayed as the greatest trustees of the environment by us and that portrayal has been romanticized to a certain degree. I believe that many modern Native Americans have learned that money is the way off the res., boredom, welfare, and the way to education and wealth. In some cases, that has lead to greed/avarice among Native Americans just as it has us.

One thing we seem to forget about Native Americans was their vengeful nature. When offended, they were powerful enemies and it didn't take much to offend them. Their frequent raids on other groups/tribes resulted in capture and slaughter of members of those tribes. One long past example might be the Utes helping Kit Carson round up the Navajos. Navajos still haven't forgotten (or forgiven?) that act. According to a friend from the Coastal Miwok, blood revenge is still part of modern Native American spiritual beliefs.

Much as we have a territorial imperative, so do Native Americans. Some tribes protect their territories (reservations) strongly. Witness the problems the Hoopa's have periodically caused by limiting access to their reservation. Other tribes (e.g. Paiutes in Nevada) use paid access to the res., for fishing but close it to hunting in order to fund tribal activities/needs.

With the exception of the various atrocities, all of this is why I compared modern Native Americans to us in my prior posts....

[winxp_man]

The "primitive" peoples lived in harmony with their universe for millenia... the "superior" western Europeans with all their inventiveness and ideas have destroyed the abundance of North America in less than 400 years... to me whose approach to living life is startlingly clear...


To some point you can say yes. But I will have to disagree for the most part. I just came down from being a few days north on the Klamath river and seen what Natives are capable of. I spoke to a ton of them and they have an attitude that they deserve and have 100% catch salmon and if possible with no limits. I mean to see the whole Klamath river for about 1 1/2 miles up river spread out with gill nets and to hear from the mouth of these natives say that they caught 30K fish in one night makes me erk. I am proud to be a person of the white race if its what the Creator made me.

I would go as far and say that the natives would have ended the same as the US is today once technology came along to them. They are just as corrupt as the so called "White Man". I met one legitimate Native that I has respect for. He foul hooked a salmon and let it go because it was not ethical and plain and simple against the law regardless of him being able to still keep it because he was a native. Natives are driven by money as much as any other man. Money to root of all evil but you cant live with out it. I guess its do not let greed get to you because greed does not have color or race it takes over anyone. Not matter how rich or poor, or technological impaired or how technological advanced, or what parts of the world your from.

Now saying that the Natives in the Western world lived in harmony I will have to side with what was said above me. They butchered each other for a long time. And what goes to say that tribes that used to exist went extinct before white man showed up.

Saying the its the "White Man" would be like saying that African people were enslaved by "White Man" himself when in actuality it was the African themselves that sold people form other tribes

[Darian]

"Saying the its the "White Man" would be like saying that African people were enslaved by "White Man" himself when in actuality it was the African themselves that sold people form other tribes."

The implications of that statement are too much of a leap for me. Don't want to start a war here but to the best of my knowledge, what happened was that native Africans were captured and sold by their captors (some native, some European) in order to make money (here we go again). Captured peoples, brought to the early Americas, to be sold into slavery were transported by ships mostly owned by New England shipping companies. On arrival, African natives and others were bought and enslaved at auction by white people of European heritage. This is an oversimplification of course but accurate enough to correct the original point.

[winxp_man]

And point being Darian all about the Benjamin's :D

It's why I said greed is bad and it can take anyone over. No matter what shape and size and color and anything else you can think of....

As I'm typing I can hear thunder storms rolling! Fall is coming? :) might go back up on the Klamath again and fish the upper parts. This time take my GoPro for sure and have to buy another 3-4 batteries.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Because of my ADD I did not read all these lengthly posts about the new casino and new hotel/motel.

I would say that it is near impossible to have a business survive at the mouth of the Klamath River because 9 months of the year it is very slow going up there.

Lodging and food are a hard thing to find up at the mouth.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

I did hear that some caucasian (non-native American) men will marry a woman who is 25% native American, then they get a $50,000.00 jet sled with a bunch of model guil nets and catch unlimited amounts of King Salmon and sell them for over $5.00 pound now.

I don't call that subsistance fishing.

Not looking for a big fight here but is this accurate or possible?

.

[winxp_man]

Because of my ADD I did not read all these lengthly posts about the new casino and new hotel/motel.

I would say that it is near impossible to have a business survive at the mouth of the Klamath River because 9 months of the year it is very slow going up there.

Lodging and food are a hard thing to find up at the mouth.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

I did hear that some caucasian (non-native American) men will marry a woman who is 25% native American, then they get a $50,000.00 jet sled with a bunch of model guil nets and catch unlimited amounts of King Salmon and sell them for over $5.00 pound now.

I don't call that subsistance fishing.

Not looking for a big fight here but is this accurate or possible?

.

Bill you are right on I have 100% sources that can conform the same. Also like I have been posting spending the 4 days at the mouth of the Klamath you see this happening. Blonde hair blue eyed gill netters. The boats they use are pram looking boats in the 12-16' range with jet engines, and they do sell the fish for $5 a pound.

They are also supposed to have a quota that they get to fill. Well so much for that because once their quota is met and they cant sell to the commercial people anymore they then keep netting and start selling fish down in the Bay Area. There are cases where they are being busted doing this. I say once caught doing such acts there rights as natives should be revoked. Then if it happens (like it did when I was up there) that a boat capsizes with a bunch of fish they do not count towards their annual quota.

I will have to take some time and put together the video of all the gill netting going on up there. I say at least 1 1/2 mile of nets spread across the whole river. Think of all the by product damage these nets do (steelhead, choho). They claim that they release all unwanted fish unharmed I will call BS because there is quite a bit of fish floating down river.

And this Bill is another reason why a river would find it hard to maintain a wild fish population.