East Walker Nv side last week..... HIGH WATER TEMPS, QUIT FISHING WHEN WATER HITS 70

[Chris Evison]

Fished EW on Wednesday and Friday. This is strictly a dawn patrol to noon fishery with the current low flows and high water temps. Got plenty of stockers, mostly on nymphs and some on the dry. All bigger fish came on dries, sz 10 and 8 Club Sandwiches, Chernobyl Ants and sz 4&6 yellow stone imitations. Great fun when 14-21 inch fish are chasing big dry flies down river, very exciting fishing.

Carry a stream thermometer and check temps every 1/2hr from 11am on. When water hits 70F quit fishing. If you catch and play big fish when water hits 70F and above it is pretty much a death sentence for bigger fish. Give the fish a break.

Last Friday I saw a guy pull up in Red Wash at 1:30pm and start rigging to fish. We had quit fishing at 11:30am when water temp hit 70F. We stayed on river swimming and snorkeling until 1:30pm. At 1:30 the water temp was 74F and slowly climbing. If the guy had any clue he would have taken a water temp and then not bothered to go fish. I just hope he got skunked, anything he caught would not likely survive.

On Wednesday after water hit 70F I was walking back to parking lot and saw two guys still fishing. Asked both if they had a stream thermometer and neither did.

Really important to take water temps during low flow, high water temp season we are having. Quit fishing when water hits 70F. Some would say quit when water hits 68F.

All east side streams are running low and warm. Please exercise caution and give the fish a break when water temps get to warm!

[Scott V]

I hope you went over and informed the fisherman of the water temp and the dangers of fishing in them. I had to do that to a guy in Montana, he had no clue that I watched 2 browns go floating by me after he "released" them. He was new and was very thankful for the information. If you do not say something, they will not learn.

[Chris Evison]

I informed both guys on Wednesday, but they ignored me and continued fishing. Both were beginners and from what I could see the fish probably did not have much to worry about.

[cyama]

So your post says you were fishing on the Nevada side. That is some distance below the Reservoir. Do you have any idea what the water temps are on the Calif. side? I landed a funny tailed fish on the CA side I was wondering where it came from.. Is the Rosachi Ranch planting trout? Or is it Nevada Fish and Game? Are the regs catch and keep on the Nevada side? I personally am not to happy to see those funny tailed fish on the Walker...

[Chris Evison]

Nv fish and game plants their side about a mile below Rosaschi. California plants on their side. I doubt a planter from Nv made it way up Ca side, but who knows. Water temps should be about the same. Regs for old Rosaschi (which has been public water since 1997) are C&R, single hook and barbless lures and flies only. No bait. EW will always have planters no matter which state you fish.

[cyama]

That's interesting I didn't know CA DFW was planting the East Walker, but I was thinking the East Walker was a designated Wild Trout Water. I looked it up and it is not... I guess I can't complain about seeing one funny tailed fish.
So I have some tips for fishing this low water year if you live around Sac or the Bay Area and you only have a few days to fish. This applies to most of the rivers right now
1. Don't worry about leaving early. Take off from your house around noon.
2. Just plan on getting to your destination around 5 or 6 pm.
3. Fish the evening caddis hatch.
4. Sleep in your car or get a tent you can set up easily. Bring some leftover pizza and a six pack of beer!
5. Wake up at dawn and fish away. Usually PMDs and midges. Eat a power bar or a donut!
6. Quit fishing around 10 or 11 AM
7. Drive on to your next designation or head on home with a big smile!

[goby]

I'm glad you guys informed them. I always fish in 50 degree water and would have never even thought to stop fishing in 70 degree water.

[TyV]

Having fished mostly cold water streams for much of the last 20 years, I have been curious about the claims being made about fishing warmer water on fish. Obviously, warmer water has less dissolved oxygen and is why fish hold in faster and deeper water with warmer temps. However, the claims of massive mortality increases seem incredibly overstated. In fact, I have done quite a bit of research and almost no real scientific data or research that support these claims.

I always practice catch and release, use barbless hooks and the safest of fish handling. I am very interested in facts and research instead of hearsay and speculation. Anyone have data or research to support these extreme claims in any way? If they exist, I would love to read them. I always want to err on the side of caution. Please share any data or studies you know of.

Thanks

Fish ON

[Bull_Dog]

I have no "scientific data" on the subject but a ton of experience on both moving waters and stillwaters. I have been a part of and managed private trout fisheries for over 10 years. I have been part of expensive restocking situations and closures to waters due to mortatity. Most or all in part due to water temperatures and low oxygen levels. In one case 72 degree water, stagnate air and some cloud cover killed an entire lake. I have seen time and time again how trout struggle to revive or even sink to the bottom after a struggle with an angler in warm water.

The important message hear is for a little faith in the comments from the messengers above in this post and to not feel like this is an overstated message. All species of fish have a different threshold for oxygen levels and water temperatures. Trout in particular are on the lower scale of this and can't handle being stressed in warm, low oxygen level situations. I have seen catfish thrown in the back of a pick-up truck and left out of water for an hour or more come back to life in a swimming pool loaded with clorhine.

I do not have a graph or anything similar to support my claims only first hand knowledge. I would also love to see the scientific resasons this is the case with trout but until then I for one am not going to test the waters so to speak but take the advice of the members suggestions above and leave the trout alone when the water reaches 70 degrees.

[jayclarkflyfishing]

Fish on
Here is one study http://www.montana.edu/mtcfru/Guy/Publication%20pdf/Boyd%20et%20al_2010.pdf . I googled this search "trout mortality due to high water temperatures" . There is a ton of research out there that supports the claim that c&r is harmful to trout in water temps that are over 70*. Also, fishing deep in a stillwater environment for fish when surface temps are over 70* should be avoided as well.

Jay

[TyV]

Jay...thank you for the link. I actually had read the article previously. It is the only real study or data on the subject I could find. Let me also say that I am in search of knowledge and FACTS here, not to have an argument or pissing contest over opinions. That being said, the Montana study does NOT support the claims by many of a death sentence...or your claim that "There is a ton of research out there that supports the claim that c&r is harmful to trout in water temps that are over 70*.” Where is the other research besides this study?

As I stated, I am certain that catching and releasing fish at warmer temperature stresses fish, as does C&R, netting, holding them out of the water for photos and handling et. al. However, this study shows one thing for certain...that the claims by many are NOT true about high mortality. While the study did show increased mortality, it did not show a high mortality or "death sentence" by any means. The study predicted a 30% mortality and the average numbers were well below that...with brown trout less than 5%....above 73.4*F

There are also issues with the study that I believe certainly added to the mortality...most importantly, which the study acknowledged, with the fish being contained in in-stream cages during the study for 72 hours post release. That certainly adds a great deal of stress to already stressed fish after release...as well as prevents them from returning to highly oxygenated/deep/colder holding water.

"No control fish were used to account for potential
cage 3 temperature interactions at water temperatures
higher than 208C in this study. Thus, a cage effect on
mortality cannot be unequivocally ruled out and results
from this study should be interpreted with caution."

Why no there were no control fish to show the effects of caging in the same water the fish were released into seems a major flaw in the study…more so than even the quote above indicates. As well...the temperatures used were in their HOT treatment were above 23* Celsius OR 73.4* F. The study also acknowledged that beginner fishermen as well as experienced were used...fish handling/netting and time out of the water clearly add to fish stress...which I think we can all agree beginners don't do very well with.

The study shows increases in mortality...however, a rather small amount rather than a death sentence...as well, the caging affect and other factors from the study would indicate to me that there is some chance of mortality from higher temps, but very little if played properly, handled properly and released properly…and not into a cage for 72 hours.

I always practice C&R to put as little stress as possible on fish and I am very knowledgeable and experienced in doing so. I am not looking for an argument, simply wanted knowledge and data to support the extreme claims by many in the fly fishing community. It seems to me that there isn’t ANY. We could have a debate about whether a single fish mortality is OK or how many is OK or not…that’s another topic for another day. In my mind, a single fish mortality isn’t OK…but I remain unconvinced in the least that fishing in warmer water makes that a “certainty” when done properly. Any other studies or data out there…please post!

Fish ON

[cyama]

I guess you missed Scott V's post.

"I hope you went over and informed the fisherman of the water temp and the dangers of fishing in them. I had to do that to a guy in Montana, he had no clue that I watched 2 browns go floating by me after he "released" them. He was new and was very thankful for the information. If you do not say something, they will not learn."

Water temperature is just one factor... Obviously if you are new to fly fishing you may play a fish to death, which is another factor. See it all the time on the Yuba. Other factors are reviving the fish once caught. Hold it by the tail in the fastest water until it fights to swim away. No science is really needed in my mind once it is above 70 degrees in the water just stop fishing...

One day on the Walker I did see a few fish floating by. I thought it was whirling disease. Low and behold upon moving up river the rookie fly fishers really were just fighting the fish to death and not releasing properly!!

By the way there is a little tail water lake by Jay Clark's homeland that is fishing well from 7-9 pm and again from 7-9 am. The fish will pod up and crush caddis in the evening. Good luck out there and treat the fish with care!!!

[Chris Evison]

Fish On- do you carry a stream thermometer and monitor the temps when you fish? Do you fish when water is above 70F or higher?

Your response to this thread seems to read that since there is no scientific research that shows higher mortality rates when handling, fighting trout, it is okay to fish for trout in water temps higher than 70F. I have seen plenty of fish that were stressed from high water temps.

Though there are few scientific studies that show high mortality when fighting/handling fish in high water temps, there are thousands of studies that show trout do not like water temps that are 70F plus. Trout vacate high water temps areas in streams. Trout search out high dissolved oxygen levels. Catch a fish in a well oxygenated riffle in high water temps and fight the fish til you land it in slower less oxygenated water and to think there is no negative impact on the trout just shows no common sense IMHO.

Experience also has to count for something here. I have fly fished for trout since 1971 and have personally seen what happens when fishing for trout in warm water temps. Seen plenty of fish over the years that were released only to go belly up in both moving and stillwater. I will say that the more experience one has, the less likely one is to harm fish in high temp situations. But even at that the fish are stressed to a much higher level than in lower water temps.

Montana closes streams in low water and high water temp situations and also closes streams to fishing after 12pm due to high water temps. Are you saying this is wrong thing to do and it is okay to fish when water temps are in the 70F plus range.

All I was trying to say was give the fish a break and quit fishing when water temps are 70F plus. I never mentioned mortality and the only post on thread that did was yours. Are you saying it is okay to fish higher temps and it does not stress the fish, please clarify what you are trying to say.

[JasonB]

Just to play devils advocate here, I think Fish ON does have a valid point in requesting a bit more scientific data on the matter. Fishing is full of "theories", some of which hold true and others maybe not so much. I'm all for furthering our collective knowledge, and a polite discussion on the matter. It would be good to see some more concrete data on the subject.

On the other hand, I do to see the basic logic of high stream temps being tough on the trout and until proven otherwise will happily avoid fishing over them in said conditions. It's why I haven't been over to the east walker in months, and haven't managed to fish the truckee in a bit either; there's plenty of other waters to fish that are still nice and cold.
Speaking of which, I'm off in search of some...
JB

[Chris Evison]

I agree that there needs to be more research done on mortality rates on C&R streams/rivers. Fish On is right that the current research that was used as an example is flawed to the point that it is useless. Research/scientific data are hard to find on this subject.

All I am saying is carry a stream thermometer and use it in warm water conditions. Use common sense and give the fish a break if water temps in the 70's!

[mikel]

Use common sense and give the fish a break if water temps in the 70's!

very controversial...should start lots of arguments

[Morgan]

very controversial...should start lots of arguments

It is only controversial if you are ignorant.
Trout do NOT do as well in the higher water temps.
Therefore you should leave them alone and fish for them when the water temp is non life threatening.
COmmon sense...IF you are not ignorant.
And thats a big IF for most.