Why Tenkara Beats Western Fly Tackle

[Golden]

http://ryanjordan.com/blog/2011/05/big-river-fly-fishing-why-tenkara-beats-western-methods/

[Fly Guy Dave]

Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree with everything he says, but thanks for passing that along all the same. I've tried to use my Tenkara rod on streams with bigger trout, and I just tend to get broken off, since I have to use 5X or small tippet and the fish can't go on a big run, like they can when you have a reel and line. I tend to use my Tenkara on small steams only, but it's still a lot of fun and is my "go to" rod to use on small streams.

[Darian]

The title to this thread should read, Why Tenkara beats western fly tackle for trout fishing.... I agree with FlyGuy (Dave). Tenkara equipment has it's place but (IMO) it's not good for every place or type of fly fishing.... :cool:

ps. Had to edit my idea of the title....

[JohnD]

One type of tackle better than another? Sounds like snobbery. :D

[Hatch]

YEA,
I'd like to see that style/equipment used on 20 inch Yuba river Rainbows.
Good luck.
HATCH

[El Rey]

One type of tackle better than another? Sounds like snobbery. :D

No, it's a question of using the right tool for the right job.

Harlan

[Golden]

Big fish can be caught and landed on Tenkara tackle as per this picture of a brown I caught last fall: http://www.tenkarausa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3811

[Scott V]

One type of tackle better than another? Sounds like snobbery. :D

Exactly. How about just tell us why you like a product instead of having to compare it to something else. I really hate snob fisherman.

[jbird]

"Why Tenkara Beats Western Fly Tackle"

??? Guess I never knew it was a contest???

Ideas like this is what devides our sport IMO.

[Golden]

Here is another point of view on how to handle larger fish on Tenkara tackle that would benefit any angler using any kind of tackle: http://www.tenkaraflyfish.blogspot.com/2010/05/tenkara-in-company-of-larger-fish.html

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

For going for larger trout with Tenkara tackle we supply anglers with a very light pair of water skis....

[Larry S]

Well, I guess the Tenkara folks aren't reel fishermen, then.
Best,
Larry S

[Adam Grace]

I think that Tenkara poses a fun fishing challenge, whether or not people think that it may be a better fishing tool. Hopefully I will try Tenkara next year because I love small stream fishing and my interest has been peaked ever since I learned about Tenkara about 6 months ago.

[Fly Guy Dave]

Well, I guess the Tenkara folks aren't reel fishermen, then.

Speaking from my own experience only: some times I'm very reel and others completely UN reel, but both have their place... :D

[Scott V]

I think that Tenkara poses a fun fishing challenge, whether or not people think that it may be a better fishing tool. Hopefully I will try Tenkara next year because I love small stream fishing and my interest has been peaked ever since I learned about Tenkara about 6 months ago.

Adam, I want to get one for small streams, but mainly for backpacking. I can just whip out my Tenkara and extend it without having to pull out my regular rod and assemble 4 pieces just to fish for a couple seconds while hiking. I always pass little creeks that have fish but never want to stop long enough to use a regular rod.

[Mike O]

Adam, I want to get one for small streams, but mainly for backpacking. I can just whip out my Tenkara and extend it without having to pull out my regular rod and assemble 4 pieces just to fish for a couple seconds while hiking. I always pass little creeks that have fish but never want to stop long enough to use a regular rod.

sounds like someone needs to build a holster

[alpen glow]

on the blog that was posted these were two things the author says that stood out for me
1 "Tenkara allows you to pick and choose what fish you are casting to, regardless of where they are (except of course, for those ones that are very far away)."

2 "You see, tenkara allows you to deliver both a “fly first presentation” (where the fly hits the water first, before any other part of the line) and a “fly only presentation” (where the fly, and perhaps a few inches of tippet, are the only things to ever touch the water’s surface during a drift)."

Both of these two points are easily can be achieved with a 100$ TFO rod

if your dry line hits the water before your fly and leader your forward motion cast is going too far forward or your dropping the tip too early on the forward cast.

you can easily dapple your dry fly in a "high stick" manner with only your leader out of the tip and so on. the trick is to be quick enough to drop the tip when the fish strikes the fly so the trout can turn on the fly and be hooked or you just rip it out of his month.
this technique is great to use on the upper sac for dappling caddis when they're laying eggs.

my two cents... its just another thing to buy... but if it gets you to go out and fish and makes you excited go for it and post some trip reports!

[Larry S]

My post earlier today was not to offend anyone. I'm a long time enjoyer of puns and plays on words. My own
personal thought on types of fishing can best be expressed by a quote that Poppy of Idaho's Red Shed Fly Shop
uses on all of his spey pages posts -
"How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB"
Best to all,
Larry S
Sun Diego

[Fly Guy Dave]

If you were referring to me, I wasn't offended in the least, I just wanted to join in on the pun-ishment. I like a good pun myself, but they do make me cringe at times.

As far as using another kind of rod, it really isn't the same. I've fished some small creeks with just a short leader, tippet and a fly, all tied onto the tip of a conventional fly rod, and compared to a Tenkara rod...well...there IS no comparison. One of the nice features of a Tenkara rod is the action. It is so soft and gentle, it's easy to lay out some really pretty casts that regular rods can't match. Either that, or I suck at casting...which is a distinct possibility.

But getting back to the original idea of this thread, I tired using my Tenkara rod on Hot Creek last winter and I hooked into plenty of fish, but they'd break me off if they were of any size, mostly because if I used a tippet heavier than 5X, the fish might break the tip of the rod. That's why I use it exclusively on small stream and while backpacking where there are small streams. Set up is really quick, but I still have the conventional fly tackle for fishing high country lakes.

I have no issue with any kind of angling, as long as they respect the resource and fish in an ethical manner. The quote Larry shared sums it up pretty well.

[Larry S]

No sweat, Dave.
I'm thinking of some of the red-hot wild steelhead hook-ups that many of us have experienced. Tenkara? I think not.
I suspect something other than "Why Tenkara Beats Western Fly Tackle" might have a more receptive
audience. Some of the tiny brush-lined brook trout streams that I visit yearly in northern Michigan seem like a place for
such a rod. But hell, half of the fun involved in fishing such streams is coping with the restrictions.
Best to all,
Larry S

[Golden]

I first learned about Tenkara fly fishing from an article that appeared in California Fly Fisher Magazine, in 2009. And after 40+ years of fly fishing and thousands of dollars invested in many rods, reels, lines and other related fly fishing equipment, I felt Tenkara fly fishing had little new to offer me when I first read about it. In fact I voiced nearly all the same doubts expressed earlier by anglers here on this thread. While some what appealing in a retro sort of way, Tenkara seemed like a giant step backward away from everything fly fishing technology had worked so long and hard to achieve to me. We often hear that Tenkara fishing is just dapping, glorified cane pole fishing, and is suitable only for fishing for little fish in small mountain streams. In short that it is not really fly fishing at all. And, oh yes, that you have absolutely no chance of ever landing a good sized fish on a fixed length of fishing line and a T-rod. But I also believed Tenkara tackle might hold some distinct advantages for small stream fishing where I fish, backpack, and high lake angling as well. So, when I saw Ryan Jordan's Big River Big Fish article it interested me because he was presenting a view of Tenkara fly fishing that differed considerably from everything else I had been able to find on the subject up to that point in time: He was fishing big waters, catching big fish (pictures do not lie), and casting unbelievable distances with T-tackle, not just the one to and a half times the length of the rod casting distances I had seen mentioned. Because I had serious doubts about Tenkara's possible effectiveness on the high lakes, this was all good news to me. The other thing his piece did was to convince me that I should do more research and give Tenkara an honest try before forming any final conclusions on the suitability of Tenkara fly fishing tackle for me and my fishing. I guess part of it was that I was looking for something different and some new challenges.

Tenkara Rods and Costs: The cost to play in this little game was sure reasonable enough to get into it in the first place. At present I have bought 3 T-rods (and have another 11 foot long one on the way) of 9, 12 & 13.5 feet in length, two Traditional Tapered furled lines as well, many tapered and level lines of varying lengths and weights that I have made up myself, a Guide Model rod quiver, a small chest pack, and I still have a lot of room left over dollar wise before I will have spent the equivalent of what one top of the line Scott, Sage, Orvis or Winston fly rod would cost, let alone the additional cost of a reel and line to make up one complete outfit of western gear.

My First T-rod was a 12 foot long, 6:4 action Iwana rod, at the time less than 150.00 dollars. T-rods generally come in 3 primary actions, 5:5, 6:4 & 7:3, which refers to the percentage ratio of softer tip sections to the stiffer mid and butt sections of the rod based on 10 equal divisions. Again, generally, 5:5 action rods are designed to cast the best with the lightest level lines. 6:4 action rods will cast well with either level or tapered lines. While 7:3 action rods tend to cast tapered lines the best but, of course you can try any line on any rod you like. The ratios describe where the rods bend, not necessarily how stiff they are. But generally 7:3 rods are stiffer than 5:5 action rods will be. Most people coming from a conventional fly fishing will do better and prefer 6:4 and faster action rods than the 5:5 action rods. Tenkara rods all (regardless of action ratio) have much softer tips than western fly rods do, which can and probably will cause some hook setting problems in the beginning, but that just seems to be an adjustment problem that self-corrects with time and practice in a short period of time. There are rods made and sold with stiffer and softer actions than Tenkara rods come in, which usually are corkless grip rods, that will handle heavily weighted nymphs, split shot and strike indicators far better than Tenkara rods will if you have a need for such. The best place I know of to learn about all of them is on the TenkaraBum sight.

T-Lines: Coming from a fly fishing background, I decided to try a tapered Traditional nylon line first because tapered lines are such a big part of the fly fishing I know and love best. A line of 10.5 feet in length was my choice for the 12 foot rod length, which proved to be about 3 feet too long on most of the small streams I was fishing but worked fine on bigger streams and lakes. The line cast very well except in wind but the kinking and tangling I experienced with it when I had to break a fly off was more than I wanted to put up with, so I substituted in my hand-tied small stream leaders for stream fishing and my longer hand-tied lake leaders for lake fishing T-lines, which worked much better for me on my first Tenkara fly fishing season. These leaders use Amnesia for the butt sections and Fluorocarbon for the transition and tippet sections. T-Lines, whether level or tapered, work better when made out of Fluorocarbon because it is denser and stiffer than nylon line is. After the season was closed I bought 12, 15 and 20 pound FC line to make up my Tapered T-lines with to gain more power in the wind. Since I had already invested in the materials I made up a number of level lines and cast them in my back yard. Surprisingly to me, they cast great.

TUSA developed a Kevlar Traditional line (my second bought line) that totally eliminated the kinking and memory problems a few months after I had bought my first line, which was also bought a little later on at a cost of about 20.00 dollars, which cast much better in the wind but was heavy enough that it was not as easy to hold off of the water as my hand tied lines were, and could not be made to float for very long no matter what I treated it with. The essence of Tenkara fly fishing is to keep as much of your line up and off of the water as possible in stream fishing, the ability to do that is what makes it incredibly easy to get good presentations and long drag free drifts in places you could never get them before with standard fly fishing tackle, so whether a line floats or sinks is of little concern in stream fishing. In windy conditions on stillwaters however, you can not effectively hold your line up and off of the water as it will get blown all over the place, creating lots of drag in your fly pattern and presentation. Here, there is a real need for a floating Tenkara fly line. I couldn't get TUSA or Tenkarabum interested in bringing out a floating T-line, but Rigs Fly Shop has marketed a couple in different lengths of floating T-lines and they cast far better in the wind than any other level or tapered FC T-line that I have tried.

To clear up what is a confusing point in Ryan Jordan's article, T-lines use a different numbering system than conventional fly lines use. The 4 and 5 weight lines Ryan was speaking about are not the same as 4 and 5 Wt. fly lines, but would correspond to 15 and 20 pound test level FC lines. A #3 T-line is 10 pound test FC, a #3.5 T-line equals 12 pound test FC, and a 4.5 T-line is 17 pound test FC line. As you can see T-lines are much smaller in diameter and lighter in weight than even a 000 fly line is, and much harder to see. Consequently, Tenkara developed and sold T-lines are of the HiVis type, to make line handling and detection of strikes much easier to accomplish. Most all of the Long Line T-fishing is done with the level FC T-lines. But here I feel fishing very long lines, besides complicating the landing of fish greatly, gets us back into the presentation problems encountered with regular fly lines - the additional weight causing the line to lie in or on the water creating more drag management problems because you can only hold so much line up and off of the water.

[Golden]

Intimacy Is The Essence Of Tenkara For Me: Fishing with a fixed line length rod forces you to be more aware of your surroundings, the fish, and the stealth you need to exercise to be able to approach the fish close enough to be able to cast to and catch them with Tenkara tackle. Another part of the intimacy of Tenkara is the additional sensory input you get from a guide-less rod and fixed line with out a reel. Once you feel that incredible difference, you will want to experience it again and again. There has been a lot made about the ability of T-anglers to out fish conventional fly fishermen. I have not found that to be the case at all generally among equally skilled fly fishermen. But for someone new to fishing, the new angler using T-tackle will fair far better, even with out any help or instruction. Where I have noticed a big difference is in the better class of fish I am catching out of the same streams I have fished for many years with conventional fly tackle, better fish than I even knew were in there, which I attribute to the ability of T-tackle to achieve better, longer drag free drifts. Again, this is another aspect of the intimacy T-tackle provides and the fact that T-tackle makes even the smallest stream fish fun and challenging to catch.

The One Fly Concept Is An Over Simplification Of Fly Fishing In My View: I have spent many years and a lot of hard work developing a successful collection of fly patterns; I was not about to abandon them for a One Fly Sakasa Kebari approach. In Japan Tenkara fly patterns are not necessarily insect based fly patterns. On impoverished mountain streams, the fish will usually take anything that looks like some kind of bug if it is decently presented. Personally, I can think of nothing more boring than fishing with the same fly pattern all the time, but I have no doubts that such an approach could be highly effective a lot of the time for small stream fishing. I only use dry flies for all of my small stream fishing and do well enough with them to keep me satisfied. I use a lot more wet flies in stillwater situations, but even in lakes I still catch 50 percent or more of my fish on dry flies. And on lakes I know the One Fly Concept would not work nearly as well as it does in running waters. The way I look at these things is that everyone ought to get as much enjoyment out of their fishing as they can, in what ever way they like, its all relative and very personal. Its your fishing, do it the way you like. Wet, dry, nymph, indicator, swing it, I don't care. Its your enjoyment that counts for you the most. The reason I have taken the time to explain all of this is to foster more understanding and tolerance, not to promote any one method of fly fishing over any other. But beware, I feel compelled to warn you that Tenkara fly fishing can become highly addictive. Other than float tubing and shad fishing, my traditional gear is now just gathering dust and I have lost almost all my past interest in fly reels. A few years ago, if you had told me this would happen to me, I would have said, "No way, you're crazy!"

[Mike O]

"The reason I have taken the time to explain all of this is to foster more understanding and tolerance, not to promote any one method of fly fishing over any other."

really? are you sure?

[JGB]

Hey G-

Can you post the Cliff Notes please? Thanx.


;)
JGB

[Black Cloud]

We grew up with Tenkara in Texas, except we called them cane poles.

[the_gnarwhale]

This place has jumped the shark.

[Fly Guy Dave]

Hey Golden-

I'm glad you found Tenkara and that you have such a passion about it. That comes across loud and clear in your posts. However, the zeal that you have isn't exactly shared by others, and you might think that writing a Skirt-like (long time NCFFB folks will get that allusion) manifesto might help, but I think that your basic premise of Tenkara being better than other methods of fly angling only served to rub too many folks the wrong way, and no exhaustive explanation is going to help. Those few words carried more weight than the many. We both know that Tenkara is more than dapping, it's more than a cane rod, it does indeed challenge you in new ways that the uninitiated can't understand. Let 'em think what they will until they actually pick up a rod and try it with an open mind. I don't know that this thread has necessarily "jumped the shark," but I think careless words certainly have.

Cheers!

--F.G. Dave

[Dan LeCount]

BTW- kudos to you finding something you really enjoy. Me personally, I use a rod close to tenkara length WITH a reel and take advantage of both schools of thought. It has weaknesses and limitations like all forms of fly fishing,(important concept) but works well for the rivers I fish. The biggest fish I think Ive seen landed on a tenkara rod so far were maybe 18-20 inches. Those are nice fish and I would be totally happy with that any day. Still, I'm a bit skeptical with the whole tenkara as a trophy trout method when I haven't really seen anyone back it up compared to what Ive seen with standard fly tackle. Like in that article, Galhardo is on the Madison with that fish.(btw Dans a real nice guy) but anyways, that's a slightly above average fish for that river, but people catch fish in that river on standard fly rods that could eat that thing. It feels like someone is telling you a sand wedge is the best club for golf, all the time, but sometimes you want a putter, sometimes you want a driver. Its about the right tool for the right application. Some are versatile and some are specialized and I still kind of look at tenkara as a specialty rod I guess. It has some versatility and is a great tool when used to its potential, but not ideal when trophy trout hunting. Just like my steelhead rods are not my right choice of tackle when I'm backpacking. I can make it work, but its usually not ideal.

btw - check out this brown some guy got on the Madison this summer on a pats rubber legs
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1299/monsterbrown2mhq1028087.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/monsterbrown2mhq1028087.jpg/)
what a beast. If I saw someone catch something like that on a tenkara rod, I would completely re evaluate my opinion on the strengths and weaknesses of tenkara, but until then I'm waiting for someone to step it up.

[BillB]

I remember that also Black Cloud. I remember folks wading out in the timber in a lake with several of the poles, bait them, and place them arms reach apart. I once saw a rather portly, albeit seasoned, lady waste deep with a half dozen poles floating in the flooded timber. A real crappie buster she was!

[loose_shoes]

Hey Golden-

..... and you might think that writing a Skirt-like (long time NCFFB folks will get that allusion) manifesto might help...



Now, THAT's funny!

Thanks for cracking me up!

[wineslob]

Well, shoot, I'll have to throw out my Sage 3-4 wt LL RP 8' 6" rod...............................

[jersey]

Good thing I brought some gear from the East Coast...

[Fly Guy Dave]

I found (but forgot about) this link I found a while back. This guy's Tenkara rod is HUGE, but he's certainly able to get some nice steelies on it. Too bad I don't understand Japanese! http://tv.shimano.co.jp/movie/tv/paradise_06/

[Adam Grace]

That is a VERY cool video!!! Thank you for sharing that with all of us. I am impressed by how he lands those large steelhead, that would have more than likely taken ou a bunch of line on a regular fly rod on that monstrous Tenkara rod. Very Cool!

[the_gnarwhale]

That's about the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

[Mike O]

SOOOoooooo,
Any of you advanced guy wanna get into Tenkara because you realize how much it beats Western Fly Tackle, PM me for an address to send your inferior gear. I am just not advanced enough for Temkara...

Although it would be cool to try.

[JasonB]

I found (but forgot about) this link I found a while back. This guy's Tenkara rod is HUGE, but he's certainly able to get some nice steelies on it. Too bad I don't understand Japanese! http://tv.shimano.co.jp/movie/tv/paradise_06/

Did you just put a link to a guy fishing BAIT on a Tenkara rod? :eek: As if this thread hadn't gone off the rails already, haha. Actually thanks for sharing that, I thought it was very interesting. I don't see myself trying that one in particular, nor do I see putting away my "western fly rod/reel" anytime soon, but I think that Tenkara looks pretty fun.
Cheers,
JB

[Dan LeCount]

That was rad. Thanks for posting that Dave. Also I could understand a little of the Japanese. He kept saying the fish were awesome (sugoi) and pretty (kirei) and when he caught a Dolly Varden, he said it was pretty, but the fish they were targeting were steelhead. He also described holding water in one part if I'm correct. In one part when they flew to the other river, he was fighting a fish he said something about being barbless so he had to be careful to not lose it. My Japanese is pretty rusty.

[jbird]

LOL!! Wading up to your nipples using a 20' rod. I think Id like to wade up to my shins and deliver a nice cast.

Casting... thats what yor missing with tenkara