Salmon Recovery?

[Digger]

I did a search on this topic and didn't really find a thread existing exactly on this issue, but I was wondering about the state of the salmon fishery.

I live in So Ca, so I'm not near actual evidence of what's being reported/projected on this years' salmon runs. I read that DFG has opened up the limits/quotas, I read reports that there's tons of King's off the coast.
Now I see my local Whole Foods Markets having sales over the last few weeks of "Local Wild Caught" King salmon which they can barely move enough at 1/2 price ($13/lb), so I'm inclined to believe they're out there.

Simple Question: So, if this may be a banner season after so many bleak ones recently, is there any correlation to the fishing closure that was implemented in the spring of '08 to this 'apparent' abundance of fish this year?

It was certainly controversial, but in hind sight was that the right thing to do back then?

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

All I know is that I had dozens of reports of lots of KIng Salmon out off our coast being caught this summer.

Should have big runs up the Nor Cal rivers this fall.

[Darian]

Hi Digger,.... Good to see you're still following this BB.

Not sure increased numbers in a single year equals a recovery. Seems to me that the real measure of recovery will be if the increases continue over a number of years.

That said, in answer to your question, my SWAG says that in the short run closures did have an impact on increase in numbers of Salmon surviving. In general, information I've been reading indicates that commercial/recreational impacts on fisheries is significant.

I'm fairly sure that the level of impact the closures had when compared to changes in ocean conditions was not as significant, tho.... 8-)

[Jgoding]

I dunno, they predicted huge returns last year and they're predicting big returns this year but last year was a lot of small fish and jacks in our area. I think numbers are up, but I wouldn't say the fishery is recovering. I think we had a strong water year last year that helped a lot but it's how we treat these 'big' returns that will determine how well the fishery recovers.

[winxp_man]

I would see pics and videos if young salmon being released in the delta and bay. I bet that that issues is the main reason why it all got messed up here in Northern Cali. I have been fishing for salmon since I was 12 years old!! And seen big numbers and fish everywhere on the Sac river, Feather, and the American year after year ( of course not like in the old days) but before our fish where being dumped so far down the water system that they simply would not make it back in our water systems. I say quit screwing with what works and keep at it because it works!!! And to add to it before the big close off happened we were allowed to catch 3 yes 3 fish at a time!!!!! Dosen't that tell you that the system was working?

[Darian]

As a guy observed over on Blanton's BB once observed, the only reason there's a commercial fishing season for Salmon in California at all is because they're mass produced in hatcheries (paraphrasing). He's a commercial/recreational fisherman with a first hand, practical point of view. I'm accepting of his ideas.

With that in mind, I'm feeling like the King Salmon population in this state would probably be in the same condition (low numbers) as the Silver Salmon were it not for the attention given to producing Kings for the commercial fishery. Even tho there has been a lot of efforts (including listing and closures) to restore Silvers for many years, those efforts have been relatively unsuccessful. Since Silvers are a gamefish having no commercial value, they do not appear to get the same level of attention that Kings attract in terms of hatchery efforts. IMO if Silvers were produced in hatcheries at the same volume as Kings, there wouldn't be any closures.

Since hatcheries seem to be able to obtain all of the King Salmon eggs they need for any particular year, regardless of numbers returning or habitat conditions, straying doesn't seem to be a major concern for DFG or NMFS. Their concerns look more like a matter of survival of returning fish to support the fisheries. Which, indirectly, tends to reflect the significant level of impact that commercial/recreational fishing has on surviving numbers.

Just out of curiosity, I'm wondering what the ratio of hatchery spawned Kings to naturally spawned Kings is in any given year???

[winxp_man]

Darian that is a good question as to what the ratio is in numbers between hatchery and wild kings. Also are hatchery kings marked the same way as hatchery steelhead?


As for recreational fishing to me does not have much impact at all. Commercial yes I can see that being the case. Reason is everyone is saying that there are good numbers being caught by commercial boats but up let say the Feather R not that many fish being caught at all compared to past years where almost everyone that would be out fishing would get a fish.

[matt johnson]

The big salmon hatcheries operating in the Central Valley were established as mitigation for the loss of salmon/salmon habitat resultng from the dam construction required by the Central Valley Project. Spring run Chinook were historically the most abundant race of Chinook in the Central Valley, but because of their life history characteristics, they proved to be hard to raise in hatcheries. Fall run proved to be the best candidate for hatchery production in the Valley. There were never any Coho in the Central Valley to destroy, so that is why they are not raised in hatcheries in the Valley. I do not know why large production Coho hatcheries were not built on the CA coastal rivers? There is limited production on Scott Creek and the Russian River. Central Valley hatchery fall run drive the sport and commercial ocean fisheries south of Eureka, and the freshwater sport salmon fishery in the delta and river systems of the Central Valley. Each spring 33-34 million hatchery fall-run are released from the hatcheries in the Valley. Some of these releases are on-site at the hatchery. Many of these fish are trucked and released downstream to points in the delta or Suisun Bay.

The commercials definately have some influence over salmon management in California, but they are a relatively small group. There are less than 5,000 available commercial troll permits total in CA. Far fewer boats than that are actually fishing, especially after the season was closed two years in a row back in 08 and 09.. Not a reliable way to make a living.... Again it all goes back to the BOR's obligation to mitigate for eviscerating untold miles of salmon habitat in the Valley. Like it or not, what we are basically left with in the Valley are hatchery fall-run.

Digger asked if the closures back in 2008 and 2009 resulted in the increased abundance we are seeing this year. I would venture that the closures had little effect. The closures insured that the various hatcheries in the Valley were able to make their egg quota during those lean years. These hatcheries are keenly interested in preserving their own stock. They do not want to rely on out of basin egg transfers as this would ultimately defeat the purpose of their existance as mitigation banks. When considering the health or abundance of a given years run I always look back three years to try to figure out what was going on when that year class was heading to the ocean (most adult fall run Chinook in the Central Valley are 3 year olds). Back in the spring of 09' fall run Chinook had a few things going for them: we had a realatively wet year with good spring out-flow, restrictions on pumping to protect delta smelt, and in the case of hatchery fall run Chinook, increased trucking of fish to the bay. However, the big kicker was likely greatly improved ocean conditions.



Just out of curiosity, I'm wondering what the ratio of hatchery spawned Kings to naturally spawned Kings is in any given year???

This is an area of keen interest and study. Since 2006 1/4 of all 33-34 million Central Valley fall run Chinook produced in hatcheries have been marked with a clipped adipose fin and implanted with a coded wire tag in their snout. There is intense effort to determine the ratio of clipped and unclipped salmon within the ocean commercial and sport landings, the Central Valley in-river sport fishery, and at the hatcheries and natural spawning areas up river. If you are salmon fishing that is why somebody from DFG is asking to see your catch and taking the head from any clipped fish you might have. Technicians/Field Biologists on the carcass surveys are checking every salmon carcass for the presence/absence of an adipose fin. At this point it appears that there is little to zero natural fall run Chinook production ocurring in the major hatchery rivers in the Valley such as the Feather and American. Those systems without a major hatchery still see some natural production. Clear Creek and the upper Sacramento River in Redding are two examples. However, even these populations are impacted by stray hatchery fall run. Adult hatchery fall run that were trucked downstream to the bay as juveniles stray at much higher rates than those released on site but their survival is higher. Coded wire tag recoveries reveal all of this. Hope some of this is helpful, Matt.

[Darian]

Thanks for the info. Answers some of my questions and raises some as well. One thing I seem to recall is that in the late 70's, myself and a couple of other guys caught several Silvers in the American in a deep hole above Watt Avenue about a quarter mile. Not sure what they were doing there but they were definitely Silvers.

The fish stopped showing in that area after it filled in from high water.

Thanks again for the info.... :D

[Digger]

Darian/Matt -Thanks for all the info. Great insights.

Probably a more appropriate title would have been, "Salmon Recovering?"

I did read somewhere that the last couple years the cooler ocean temps have prevailed and thus creates more nutrients conducive to salmon/steelhead growth/survival.

Whatever the reason is (likely a complicated combination of all points) I would hope that it continues. The stories of what I've been reading up on the Elwah sounds promising as well.

Another question, does evidence exist that the steelhead population fluctuation follow suit with salmon, or are the two species mutually exclusive?


Mike

[craigfalk]

This is very interesting. Matt, do you have information on the Salmon run on the Lower Yuba River? I see fishery biologist counting the carcases. There is no hatchery on the Yuba and Salmon actively spawn in the river for many miles below Englebright Dam. I assume these fish are wild, native Salmon. Is that the case? I have definitely caught a few fin clipped Steelhead in the Yuba and have been told they were Feather River hatchery fish that lost their way. Is that true of some of the Yuba River Salmon as well?

[Darian]

"Another question, does evidence exist that the steelhead population fluctuation follow suit with salmon, or are the two species mutually exclusive?"

Since they're similar species, it would be easy to say that their population fluctuations match each other. However, there may well be some very important distinctions between the two. For example, the distance of ocean migrations may vary. Salmon wander far up the west coast. Not sure about Steelhead.


Hopefully, Matt or someone else can answer this one.

[BobVP]

All I can add here is that yesterday I spoke with an old friend that has commercial fished here for more than 40 years and his comment was; He has never seen the ocean so void of life between Pt Arena and Shelter Cove" Nothing. Below PA lots of stuff happening. Above SC the same. Very poor commercial season in between.
He doesn't spend as much time as years gone by on the longer trips but I do trust what he says.
Odd, no?

[matt johnson]

This is very interesting. Matt, do you have information on the Salmon run on the Lower Yuba River? I see fishery biologist counting the carcases. There is no hatchery on the Yuba and Salmon actively spawn in the river for many miles below Englebright Dam. I assume these fish are wild, native Salmon. Is that the case? I have definitely caught a few fin clipped Steelhead in the Yuba and have been told they were Feather River hatchery fish that lost their way. Is that true of some of the Yuba River Salmon as well?

Yuba River Chinook escapement estimates are conducted annually. The Yuba River is not part of my area, but I know there is a fall run Chinook cracass survey and there is a Vaki station at the ladder at Daguerre Dam. Central Valley Chinook salmon population estimates are tabulated in Grantab. Here is a link for Grantab through 2010:

http://www.fws.gov/stockton/afrp/documents/GrandTab_020111.pdf

No salmon hatchery on the Yuba, but stray fall and spring run Chinook show up there every year. Many of these strays are from the Feather River hatchery. The people you see out there conducting the carcass surveys will be examining each carcass for a missing adipose and taking the head of every fish that is "clipped". Next time you are fishing the "egg bite" on the Yuba spend some time looking at the fresh salmon carcassess to see if they have a clipped adipose fin or not. Betcha' you will find a clipped fish if you examine more than a couple. The Yuba is considered a significant strong-hold for natural Chinook production, but the population has likely long been influenced and will continued to be influenced by stray hatchery fish from the Feather given its location in the watershed.

I have also cught stray hatchery steelhead on the Yuba and have seen pictures of hatchery steelhead cuaght on the Yuba on this board and other places. All hatchery steelhead released in the Central Valley are marked with a clipped adipose fin. It is a nice "bonus" to hook a chunky Feather River steelie on the Yuba, but I always have some mixed feelings about them being in there.... The Yuba is a cool river. We are all lucky to have it near us.

[winxp_man]

Matt,

Thanks for that link! That is a interesting read. I wonder what happened after 2006. The numbers drop just stupid crazy from in the 200,xxx's to the 60,xxx's........


In your opinion does releasing the young smolts further down like in the bay or delta have a big impact on how the returns come back? Reason being I remember years back when the catch was good that I have not heard of much fish being released in the delta or bay. It was more recent years when I started seeing smolt release in the delta and bay.



And here is one example just so no one says where is the proof.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2012/05/10/18713283.php

[matt johnson]

Matt,

I wonder what happened after 2006. The numbers drop just stupid crazy from in the 200,xxx's to the 60,xxx's........[/url]

Yeah winxp, that was the beginning of the big "crash" that lead to the fishing closures in 2008 and 2009. What is interesting is that it affectd all rivers and all races of Chinook in the Central Valley. Last year, and early indications this year, show a trend of climbing out of the hole. Hopefully it continues... If you look through the Grandtab data you will see a similar decline in the early 1990's, although it was not quite as severe as 2007-2010.


In your opinion does releasing the young smolts further down like in the bay or delta have a big impact on how the returns come back? Reason being I remember years back when the catch was good that I have not heard of much fish being released in the delta or bay. It was more recent years when I started seeing smolt release in the delta and bay.
[/url]

Coded wire tag recoveries from salmon carcasses and the ocean and inland fishery show that hatchery smolts released at the bottom of the delta and in the bay survive at higher rates than those released further upriver. The salmon "crash" starting in 2007 resulted in increased pressure from user groups on hatcheries to truck more fish to increase survival. This makes lots of fisherman happy but results in increased straying when these fish return as adults. It is kind of like these fish lack a "road-map" of how to get back home becuase they were moved downstream in a truck instead of moving downstream on their own. Last spring a batch of hatchery juveniles were "barged" downstream in a specially converted boat where the tank the fish were held in was exposed to re-circulating river water for the entire length of the trip. I don't have a link for the news release but I bet you could find it on Google if interested. The hypothesis being that these fish will have better luck finding their way back home after being exposed to all the water from their starting point down to the bay....

[Notch]

Another way the hatchery managers boost the ocean fishery is by dumping a bunch of fall run smolts (Feather River I think) into the Santa Cruz harbor. These fish apparently have great survival rates and add to the ocean catch, but now they are back in the harbor trying to find a river to swim up. I hear the fishing is good off the jetty and around any culvert dumping in water.

[winxp_man]

Matt,

Thanks for all the info you have shared here :)

I totally understand the the surviving rate will be higher but like you also said it you will have more fish stray because like you stated they lack the map guide they develop when they go down themselves. Its like homing pigeons that my father raises. He tells me that there are instances when they will go back to the owner even (and this sounds almost impossible) if given to another breeder as an egg. But then again its a very rare thing.

I'm not saying that all young salmon will not return but that there will be quite a few salmon that will stray. Now the boating the fish down through the water in a special suited boat sounds interesting! I will try to find some info on this and do a little reading. Also yes this year we have a way better return then the previous years.

Again thanks for sharing info with us here! :)

[OceanSunfish]

Another way the hatchery managers boost the ocean fishery is by dumping a bunch of fall run smolts (Feather River I think) into the Santa Cruz harbor. These fish apparently have great survival rates and add to the ocean catch, but now they are back in the harbor trying to find a river to swim up. I hear the fishing is good off the jetty and around any culvert dumping in water.

I remember hearing about a similar project that will be supervised by Coastside Fishing Club in the near future. Smolt will be released into Princeton Harbor. It's assumed that the surviving adults will return to Princeton Harbor in late summer looking for a trib to head up, etc. This should also create a month or so fishery for guys fishing along the jetty too.

I believe similar smolt releases were conducted at Monterey Wharf in the past. Large dark salmon could be seen cruising the wharf area providing a fishery for pier anglers.