Half Pounder's

[Bryan Morgan]

Quite a few half pounders in the lower American right now. Noboby seems to be talking about them. Catching them on the usual Spey and Soft Hackle patterns. From Sailor all the way down to Watt. Kind of nice to swing for them and give your arm a rest throwing those huge Striper patterns.

[Mark Kranhold]

It's getting to be that time! Bryan,whats the biggest you have landed so far? I hear there has been some 4-5 lbers caught.:unibrow:

[Bryan Morgan]

a 21-1/2 incher swinging a Euphoria on a half and half right in the middle of the day near lower Sunrise.

[Blueracer]

Bryan you rock! And on Euphoria. Never disappoints. Things have been busy. Good news, great news.

[Mark Kranhold]

Sweet....Congrats!!!! Love those grabby :fish::fish:

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Thanks for the heads up.....late August is a traditional time to look for them.

[winxp_man]

What color pattern you running ?

[flyguy1]

Went to practice my spey casting the last 2 tuesdays for about and hour in the evening in the River Bend park area. one little tap tap this past tuesday while striping in the running line, that it. Using a floater with soft hackle. Byran, are you using a floater or sink tip?
Grats on the fish, can't wait to feel the grab

Scott K

[Bryan Morgan]

I am throwing a green Euphoria on a half and half MOW Tip. With the flows coming down, I'll switch to a 10 ft. floater. Also throwing green or tan Soft Hackles. Good luck.

[winxp_man]

I am throwing a green Euphoria on a half and half MOW Tip. With the flows coming down, I'll switch to a 10 ft. floater. Also throwing green or tan Soft Hackles. Good luck.

Excellent Bryan! Thanks for the info and looking forward to hookin up with some :)

I will probably throw on some floating line on my 7wt rod and see what happens. Oh anyone think its possible to grab them on a 5wt rod?

[Jeff C.]

Aron,

You can use a 5 wt. right now. Not many 20+ inchers in the river right now. I've caught tons of smolts and several small stripers on my 5 wt switch rod the last couple of weeks. Bruce caught a 14" halfpounder last weekend mid-river. We're going to do a float tomorrow and I'm going to bring 3 rods: one for swinging, one for stripers and one for nymphing (which I probably won't be doing).

Jeff

[bubzilla]

Not trying to be argumentative or to hijack the thread here, but "half-pounder" is a term that gets thrown around a lot--even beyond Norther California and Southern Oregon--to the point that there really is a big difference between how we use the word in the angling comminity and how it is used by scientists. Given that true half-pounders return to freshwater after only 4-5 months in the ocean following smoltification, and that studies suggest it is the smaller smolt that are most likely to exhibit this life history, I would assume that from a biological perspective there are precisely zero 20"+ half-pounders on the American or any other river with fish that have true half-pounder life histories. I have often heard people make reference to the "half-pounders" they caught on the far reaches of Upper Rogue during fly season while showing pictures of fish in the 18"-22" class--which are neither biologically (due to the distance from the Pacific) nor legally half-pounders. I do not know anything about the American, but assume there are larger adults there as well and that there is probably the same situation in terms of identification.

On the Rogue, for example, any fish over 16" is legally defined as an adult steelhead. I have always assumed this was driven by both the biolgical realities of what half-pounders are, i.e., sexually immature fish essentially hiding out in freshwater after only very short amount of time at sea and therefore diminished time to put on weight, and how half-pounders traits stunt growth, i.e., spending several months back in freshwater rather than at sea is one of the main reasons fish on systems with half-pounder life history are not as big on average when they finally return as adults. But who knows?

Anyone know more specifics in regard to whether size alone is determinative regarding half-pounder life history? I know they generally use scale samples in studies to figure out if a given fish has the life history, but determing whether a certain fish at a given time is then in their half-pounder stage is different I would think. There was a study in 2011 that, among other things, suggested the half-pounder life history was, as a proportion of runs, decreasing at least in part due to the number of hatchery smolts released (hatchery smolts being larger than wild smolts and therefore less in need of finding shelter in their natal estuaries). So yet again another unintended consequence of hatchery reproduction that we do not understand in regards to all of the potential implications.

So, long story short (I know, too late), can there be a true half-pounder over 20"?

[Bryan Morgan]

You are very correct that a 21 in. fish would not be considered a "half pounder". Although that fish was probably a resident Rainbow, and on the Amerrican, we have "Anadromous" fish in the river right now.

[Scott V]

The half pounder things has been beaten like a dead horse so many times. Please, I beg of you all, lets not get into that again. Last time it got real nasty, if you do not like the term, please keep it to yourself.

[winxp_man]

Aron,

You can use a 5 wt. right now. Not many 20+ inchers in the river right now. I've caught tons of smolts and several small stripers on my 5 wt switch rod the last couple of weeks. Bruce caught a 14" halfpounder last weekend mid-river. We're going to do a float tomorrow and I'm going to bring 3 rods: one for swinging, one for stripers and one for nymphing (which I probably won't be doing).

Jeff


Jeff,

Thanks for the info and hope you get some on the float tomorrow. I will try to get out one of these days. I actually got a salmon last night and lost it. Another fun evening. The feather now has some slower flows so you can access the river from more areas and get a fly out there.

[flyguy1]

Aron

for the past two years I have been using my 12 foot 5wt Echo TR rod when targeting the fall halfpounders. The 5wt works great. The largest HP I have landed on the 5wt is about 22 inches. What a great fight.

Scott

[Mark Kranhold]

I will be battling these fish with the ACR 11'7" 2wt trout Spey.... Should be fun! Will see how she handles it.:eek:

[winxp_man]

Well you guys are encouraging me to run out my 5wt :D

I did catch a Large Mouth about 2 weeks ago on my setup that I sold. It was also a 5wt setup and the bass was about 4 pounds. So I don't see and issue with these steelheads if you play the fish right. Thanks for info guys!

[flyguy1]

Mark
When did you get the 11'7" 2wt, is it new, or is it really your 4wt.

Scott

[Scott V]

When you get into a 25" wild like I did once, you will be glad you are using more than a 5 weight. That fish was hard to bring in on my 7 weight. I prefer not to work the fish too long. But if you want to use a 5 weight that is your choice, I just hope you don't get into anything big and wild that might possibly die in the battle.

[Bryan Morgan]

Thank you Scott, may'be I am showing my age, but I would prefer to call it a Jack Steelhead like they used to call them up north.

[ycflyfisher]

Bubzilla,

I’m with you on this one. I find it difficult to believe that more than 1% from any run from any river is actually going to return on a true half-pounder “run” and approach let alone exceed 20”. IMO “half-pounder” is the most abused and misapplied term utilized by CA anglers. With anglers the term seems to be defined solely by size, with any fish deemed to be smaller than the norm, being a “half-pounder”. And there’s a lot of variability from angler to angler on what is defined as smaller than the norm. I’ve heard of fish to 26” described as “half-pounders”.

In biological terms (where the term originated) as you pointed out, it’s used to describe a very distinct, and in most watersheds outside the Klamath, Rogue and Eel, a quite unusual life history. Even in the three aforementioned watersheds where the pounder lifehistory is common (Eel) and predominant (Klamath and Rogue) it’s still rather puzzling on how it definitively affords the fish an advantage to build population abundance. Yet it almost certainly has to be doing that or those lifehistories would not be the rule vs. the exception. There are definitely numerous viable theories on what factors drive the half-pounder lifehistory to become common or predominant in certain steelhead populations, but none IMO can be definitively supported, and all have varying degrees of viable counterpoints that seem to lack suitable explanation. It obviously has to be driven by the “pounder run” affording some advantage to the fish in either exploiting favorable conditions or avoiding unfavorable conditions. I’m more prone to accept the theories that support those favorable conditions being more linked instream and the unfavorable ones occurring in the salt.

Clearly in the context the term was originated (Snyder), the term is loosely regulated to a probable (but not definitive) size range~10-14 inches tied to that specific lifehistory. With the most often cited source with respect to “half-pounder” size being Kesner and Barnhart’s paper on the Klamath’s fall run pounder component. There’s obvious some variability within that ~ 10-14” size range that’s influenced by both instream and oceanic conditions. Given that a good portion of Kesner and Barnhart’s data for that study was collected post the 1964 flood which wreaked havoc on the entire Klamath watershed (massive sedimentation and instream scour), the ages classes of the fish that provided their data for the study possibly had impaired instream development compared to fish from more “normal” years on the Klamath. Probably not by much, but size definitely matters in terms of outmigration. Predation in the salt is inversely tied to size and larger smolts can also exploit a greater percentage of the foodweb. The later, obviously garners potentially faster growth in the salt which drives size on a pounder run. I certainly wouldn’t claim to be any more proficient than other anglers at somehow being able to designate the difference between a “big” Klamath river half-pounder and a “small” 1 salt Klamath adult (and there’s clearly some overlap between the two), but I’d say the average size of Klamath pounders in “normal” years is probably +10% to Kesner and Barnhart’s stated range for the Klamath. That’s just a WAG based on by observations.

The consensus option is that the American River steelhead exhibit Eel River genetic markers and largely follow typical Eel River lifehistories. Eel fish generally exhibit a half-pounder component in their respective lifehistories at about a 30% clip and I think there’s very little doubt that a good percentage of the “foot longish” fish that anglers catch in the fall on the American are indeed on an actual pounder run. IMO it’s more likely the larger 17-20+ inch “half-pounders” that anglers on the American catch are a combination of 1 salt adults or are simply age 4-5+ residualized resident fish.

There really isn’t any scientific evidence that other Sacto River tribs (aside from the American) host populations of steelhead that express a half-pounder component in their respective lifehistories at anything above insignificant percentages. But there’s a fair amount of scientific data on said Sacto River tribs. Half-pounder misidentification is thus the rule and not the exception on rivers like the Feather and the Yuba.

IMO the puzzling thing about American River half-pounders is that there still are American river half-pounders. When you consider the facts that there is no supporting evidence that the American nor any of the other Sacto River tribs ever historically supported significant pounder runs and none aside from the American in their currently altered states support significant pounder runs, you’ve got to question why and how it’s somehow being preserved on the American. I really don’t think it can be explained by hatchery “frankenfish” syndrome, or by in-river conditions or by a pounder run through the mess in the delta somehow being advantageous.

Got a link to this 2011 regarding hatchery smolts decreasing? Sounds like an interesting read.

[winxp_man]

Half pounder :) love the sound of that.......

[ycflyfisher]

The half pounder things has been beaten like a dead horse so many times. Please, I beg of you all, lets not get into that again. Last time it got real nasty, if you do not like the term, please keep it to yourself.

Respectfully, I think your wrong. Yes, we've had numerous discussions on pounders in the past, and I'm sorry you think it's been beaten to death. Those discussions on pounders however have never gotten nasty as you suggest. In fact the subject of pounders, has been the sole scientific topic regarding steelhead on this forum where those threads have never been trainwrecked and that those of us that are intrigued by the topic actually get to discuss it. Is it not relevant for Bubzilla to discuss the half-pounder lifehistory and what it is in a thread entitled "Half-Pounder's"?

I certainly am not singling you out because I don't recall you ever trainwrecking any thread, but I really don't get the anti-science bent that this forum seems to have. Anytime the discussion gravitates towards the scientific, someone objects, the accusations start flying, and the thread derails. Never do the mods ever intervene and it usually does get nasty. Naturally us scientific "know it alls" are usually accused of wrecking the thread or worse. Ironic since the fact that our discussions are as much about what we don't know as much, if not more about what science does "know". Even more ironic considering I can't ever remember anyone on this forum that gravitates towards the scientific discussions ever saying anything in any of the numerous "fish mishandling" or "fishing over redds" threads that were train wrecks by design from word one. It isn't my take that Bubzilla was attempting any malice with his questions.

[bubzilla]

Wow...okay. I am at a loss for the negative reaction. I guess my thought is if you do not want to engage in discussion related to the science of fisheries then don't participate, but why take issue? Is there a book burning planned on this site sometime later that I am not aware of too? :) I do the not want to argue about this--particularly given that there is nothing to argue about. No one suggested they don't like the term; the term is a scientific term with a precise meaning. I merely asked, given that there are some who frequent this board to whom the science of fisheries is important and therefore might know, if actual half-pounders ever got over 20".

Thanks for the reply ycflyfisher. I think you are probably exactly right in regards to fish that size being either 1 salt adults or residualized residents. Obviously you are correct that we are not ever going to know why that life history may have been important, but I suspect that there was a diversity benefit that protected the run from potential adverse impact--the typical "don't have your eggs all in one basket" approach that nature, when left to her own devices, has geniously imposed in many instances. I believe this is where I had read about the increases in hatchery smolts resulting in reduced proportions of half-pounder life history.

http://humboldt-dspace.calstate.edu/bitstream/handle/2148/869/Thesis_Peterson_FINAL.pdf?sequence=1

[Ed Wahl]

Really dudes?

A 20 inch fish?

If you caught a 20 inch fish and it qualified as a 'half pounder' on anyones scale, well, you just caught an eel.

Back to you, steelhead folk. ;)

Ed

[Mark Kranhold]

Here we go again..... Time to go catch some of these juveniles and not get so caught up on the term. I'm going for the 20"+ pounders:-D

[Darian]

I usually don't post much in the Steelhead Forum for obvious reasons. Been watching this thread develop and couldn't sit on the sidelines any longer.

I've participated in some of the discussions of the past mentioned by ycflyfisher and Covelo. Bubzilla has also participated in them. I've met Bubz and exchanged e-mails with the others in the past. Always enjoyed the discussions. I don't profess to have much in the way of anything scientific to add to what those guys have learned and are able to communicate but can ask questions to learn and that's what I tried to do. I learned a lot from those discussions.

There is a decided negative bent in the Steelhead forum toward questions and/or theories put out there for discussion. A lot of traditional anecdotal stuff just seems to hang on regardless of what is presented to indicate it might possibly be incorrect. This tendency seems to have driven off one contributor (Covelo) who has a wealth of scientific knowledge about Salmon/Steelhead in California and elsewhere. When he attempted to post some information the response on this BB was mildly negative but the e-mails he received were less than friendly. It seems that everyone thinks they are an expert in this Forum whether they are or not.

I was hoping that this time it might be different but am not surprised to see this thread go in the direction it has.... :\\

[aaron]

Hopefully Dennis Lee can chime in, he's writing the book, literally, on half pounders and has a lot of good knowledge about them.

[winxp_man]

If the term get some on the idea to post info about half pounders then start a thread with info. Only reason I'm in this thread is because of the info on what to use to catch some and where to catch them. Also I think that is why this thread was started.

[Bryan Morgan]

I think I'll fish for Stripers!

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

It would be cool to find out where and how the name "Half-pounder" actually came from.

Myself and others I fish with have used that word to refer to smaller Steelhead, usually anything 12 to 18 inches or so, for 50 years now.

I don't think that it was that they weighed 1/2 a pound.


One of our guesses was that at times the small fish you caught were talked about in 1/2 incriments?

2 1/2 or 3 1/2 pounds.

Noboy says I caught an 8 1/2 pound Steelhead.

It is usually 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 pounds after you get over 4 pounds or so.

__________________________________________________ __________________

Our old friend and retired CA DF&G biologist Dennis Lee has writen a book on "Half-pounders" that is over 50 years of data on the fish from most all the rivers that have them on the west coast.

According to these hard figures any steelhead over about 14 inches or longer is an adult fish that has been out to the salt for a short time. These are refered to as adult fish or one year or first year returns.

All fish under 14 inches have not left the river yet at the biologist call these fish under 14 inches "Half-pounders" or premigrants.

It is OK to call a 16 inches fish a Half-pounder but it has actually gone out of the river to the salt.

I think I am close to correct on repeating Dennis' findings but I think we will have his book in our shop some day so we can read about the studies.

.

[DAVID95670]

I agree with Win amp and Bryan..... who cares what to call these fish ... they are in the rivers and it is time to get a new switch rod from Kiene get off the couch and fish for them .....

And Salmon as well they are in there as well ....

My wife is already moaning about my fishing for Steelhead aka Trout aka FUN TIMES

[DAVID95670]

Speaking of new rods .... someone said they got a 2 wt spey how did it work out? Are there many 2 wt spey rods? Is a 2 wt spey basically a 4 wt switch but 1 ft longer then 11 feet?

[bubzilla]

Bill,

I have not read the book you mention. If it’s 50 years old, though, it was written well before most of the major studies of half-pounder life history were completed.

Since the 70s scientists have had this basic understanding: fish on certain rivers go through the smoltification process, enter salt water and remain for only a few months, and then come back to freshwater for a short period of time. They are not drawn in by spawning instinct like adults, and do not resemble jack salmon in that respect either. Basically, a fish leaves its home river as a smolt in the Spring, let’s say of approximately 8”, goes out to the ocean for 4 to 5 months, and then comes back to freshwater that Fall. Having only been in the ocean a short time, it has not had the chance to put on a lot of size, and as a result is likely not that large—perhaps 12” to 14” in length. The next Spring, they go back out and then come back as adults.

The theory has gone that there is something about a certain area of the ocean that causes these fish to act this way. That is, the behavior was thought to be localized to Northern California and Southern Oregon, and it was believed to be driven by something occurring with ocean conditions. Many have theorized that what is known as the “Humboldt Effect”, which occurs off the coast of Northern California each year, causes the ocean to be so unfavorable to the young steelhead that they seek refuge in freshwater for a short time.

Based on the above, it would be highly unlikely for a fish of any size to be a half-pounder. Why? Because the timelines would not add up. That simple. If the fish is, for example, 20”, then it was either in the ocean longer than 4 to 5 months, or it went out to salt water at a much larger size than is typical for smolt. Theoretically either are possible, but they do not fit with what is the accepted scientific paradigm. Perhaps someone has established that fish can smolt later in their life history than normal (something the study of the fisheries in Russia has suggested), thereby being much larger than the normal smolt, and then still go through the process of coming back on a half-pounder run? This would support the idea that there is something going on in the ocean causing these fish to seek shelter. Or, perhaps someone has established that fish can come in on more than one half-pounder run, allowing them to have the benefit of additional months at sea and therefore be of greater size.

There are some very intelligent and well-read people that fly fish. Some of them frequent your board. I threw out the question hoping someone might know of some evidence or theory that I am not aware of regarding half-pounder life history. There is a lot of research being completed all the time, and some people who love and respect steelhead try to stay on top of that for obvious reasons. I do not get to read nearly as much about fish and fisheries as I would like, but some people here—particularly a couple that are retired—are great resources.

Why anyone would take umbrage with this kind of discussion quite frankly baffles me. If someone wants to focus solely on techniques and reports of current fishing there’s nothing wrong with that. So what is the problem with those of us for whom techniques and current reports are not of any value having additional discussion? It amazes me how much effort there is, not just on this board but in this country, to avoid any form of logic or science based discourse. No one is insulting a 20” fish by saying it’s likely not really a half-pounder. What is the rub? "Who cares what these fish are called"? That misses the point by so much that I am quite frankly sad.

At any rate, thanks for the board Bill. I have not participated much in the last few years primarily because there has not been a lot of value to me, but there was a time when this, and a couple other boards, allowed me to meet and fish with some really great people.

[Mark Kranhold]

David , check your pm on 2wt

[Jeff C.]

Bruce and each caught a halfpounder around 15-16 inches on a float today mid-river.

[ycflyfisher]

Bubzilla,

Thanks for the link. I just paged through it, and that’s the largest scale analysis data set I’ve ever seen for any watershed. Agree totally with your points in post #35. Particularly the second to the last paragraph.

[ycflyfisher]

It would be cool to find out where and how the name "Half-pounder" actually came from.

Myself and others I fish with have used that word to refer to smaller Steelhead, usually anything 12 to 18 inches or so, for 50 years now.

I don't think that it was that they weighed 1/2 a pound.


One of our guesses was that at times the small fish you caught were talked about in 1/2 incriments?

2 1/2 or 3 1/2 pounds.

Noboy says I caught an 8 1/2 pound Steelhead.

It is usually 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 pounds after you get over 4 pounds or so.

__________________________________________________ __________________

Our old friend and retired CA DF&G biologist Dennis Lee has writen a book on "Half-pounders" that is over 50 years of data on the fish from most all the rivers that have them on the west coast.

According to these hard figures any steelhead over about 14 inches or longer is an adult fish that has been out to the salt for a short time. These are refered to as adult fish or one year or first year returns.

All fish under 14 inches have not left the river yet at the biologist call these fish under 14 inches "Half-pounders" or premigrants.

It is OK to call a 16 inches fish a Half-pounder but it has actually gone out of the river to the salt.

I think I am close to correct on repeating Dennis' findings but I think we will have his book in our shop some day so we can read about the studies.

.

As mentioned previously in this thread, the term ”half-pounder” was coined by John Snyder in the 1920’s in a work entitled: The Half-pounder of Eel River; A Steelhead Trout.

That was the first time this rather unique life history was ever described in the scientific literature. Also, as previously mentioned in this thread the revised “definition” of the word, commonly used by anglers to describe some definitive, yet somehow, a sliding scale size range, has absolutely nothing to do with the term’s originally intended definition whose sole purpose was to describe a life history trait. Real half-pounders defined by the life history trait, average about a foot long. A 12” salmonid weighs a bit more than a half-pound (~0.6-0.7lbs). I’d say the term “half-pounder” is appropriate and is a relatively accurate description of the fish Snyder originally described. There’s really not any mystery involved.

[burl51]

Dennis
Thanks for the history lesson. Please let us know when your
book is published. I believe many of us would be very interested. (I am sure Bill or Jeff
will keep us posted.)

thanks Burl

[Mark Kranhold]

I second that Dennis, thanks for the post. I would like to get my hands on a copy of that book as well. I assume Kiene's will be selling it?

[bubzilla]

That's so nice that you guys plan to make it through your adult, remedial reading classes this time! But while we all support that, we also know how ambitious it is for you, too. The link below is really for children, but given your maturity level and intellectual capacity, it might be the place to start. Good luck! We're all pullin' for ya!!!!

http://www.abcfastphonics.com/about.html

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Speaking of new rods .... someone said they got a 2 wt spey how did it work out? Are there many 2 wt spey rods? Is a 2 wt spey basically a 4 wt switch but 1 ft longer then 11 feet?

We cast a new "Prospector" Switch rod from Redington.

10' 6" #4 line - 4 pc = under 300 grains = $399 usd

I am getting one for this late summer / fall "Half-pounder" fishing in the Lower American River.

[Darian]

"That's so nice that you guys plan to make it through your adult, remedial reading classes this time! But while we all support that, we also know how ambitious it is for you, too. The link below is really for children, but given your maturity level and intellectual capacity, it might be the place to start. Good luck! We're all pullin' for ya!!!!

http://www.abcfastphonics.com/about.html"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mark Kranhold]

Hey look at the big brains on BUBZILLA!!!:puke: Didn't think i would have to go there but with that post of yours, it really shows your maturity level.

[bubzilla]

You're right. I should have not said that. It was immature. My apologies to the other members of the board. With "brains" (plural, really?), I should have known better. Clearly you are and your compatriots are avid readers.

[winxp_man]

So is this a info thread for getting some steelhead on the American river or a science lab that no one really requested?

:confused: :confused:

[Darian]

winxp_man, Relax.... You've been around long enough to know that it's not uncommon for a thread to get "highjacked" and wander all around. Sometimes it even gets scientific and, whether asked for or not, I enjoyed reading the original posts about "half pounders" and the attempts to clarify the definition of what those two words really mean. Frankly, before this thread, I heard so many differing descriptions/explanations that I had discounted all of them.... :confused:

If it offends you, you always have the option of not reading it or starting a thread of your own to ask questions. Keeping everyone on track in a BB is kinda like trying to herd cats.... :lol:

[winxp_man]

winxp_man, Relax.... You've been around long enough to know that it's not uncommon for a thread to get "highjacked" and wander all around. Sometimes it even gets scientific and, whether asked for or not, I enjoyed reading the original posts about "half pounders" and the attempts to clarify the definition of what those two words really mean. Frankly, before this thread, I heard so many differing descriptions/explanations that I had discounted all of them.... :confused:

If it offends you, you always have the option of not reading it or starting a thread of your own to ask questions. Keeping everyone on track in a BB is kinda like trying to herd cats.... :lol:


I'm relaxed as can be (You don't want to see me going nuts on anyone :D). I just stated that we should be civilized and have some common sense when posting, and what when and where to post your thoughts I guess that's just to much to ask for. :rolleyes:

Reason I like things organized is because you can find info your looking for easier.


You last statement gave me a good laugh. :lol: