A Call to Arms

[mircetich]

Please do not patronize non-permitted guides on the Trinity River. Over the past season I have have observed several non-permitted guides on the Trinity River and I find it rather appalling. How do I know they are un-permitted? Well usually they are sitting in the middle of the boat tying flies for those in the front and rear, directing them where to cast and looking rather sheepish when a permitted guide gives a watchful eye towards that boat.

The Trinity River Guides Association has worked very hard to lobby BLM to enforce the permitting rules and guiding. But at this point and time, BLM has lost an enforcement officer and is currently training another. I doubt their will be the heavy enforcement we once saw, so it is up to us. Permitted guides must log their trips, have additional insurance coverage, purchase a limited permit for the river, and post their permit number on their boat.

Why is this important? Because whats right, is right. On average a permitted guide must make a minimum of three trips to cover their costs for insurance, permits, and licenses. Un-permitted guides may cut you a deal, but at the expense of those that follow the rules. Those that adhere to the regulations administered by BLM and DFG tend to be stewards of the rivers they fish, they have a vested interest in doing what is right for the river, the fish and their clients.
Do you really want to be in that boat when a permitted guide asks your host "Are you guiding?", will you lie for your host? Is that right? And ask yourself, is this person really looking out for the best interest of this majestic river?

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Budgets are really down in most of the government agencies and so they have cut their staffing to a bare bones situation. This makes enforcement almost nonexistent.

Non-legal guides probably charge less too.

Very sad situation.



Also, you have many different agencies that have to police this.



US Coast Guard in the bigger water - Captain's License.

CA DF&G - guides license

US Forest Service - use permits

Who checks to see if they are bonded and insured?

.

[Fly Guy Dave]

When I've fished the Green River in Utah in the past, all of the licensed guides have a large sticker prominently displayed on their boat, showing that they are part of a "guides guild," or guides association, if you will. This lets anglers know that if the boat that they are on doesn't have this sticker, they aren't with a bonded and licensed guide, and they shouldn't go out with them. I'd also wager that any guides that see one of these non-licensed folks on the river will give them an earful. Perhaps the guides on the Trinity follow suit and unite. Self policing, instead of relying on the local govt. to do it for you.

Just my 2¢.

--F.G. Dave

[Darian]

mircetich,.... One problem I see for you making a complaint to authorities is that I doubt you could identify one of the unlicensed guys from anyone else by the description you provided. :confused: Nobody fly fishing from a drift boat would act like what you describe unless they were an unlicensed/non-permitted guide, right(?).... :lol: Now, I have no doubt that there are individuals that guide without obtaining proper permits, etc. Guides licensed by DFG. It may not be right, but it happens everywhere. life's a bitch. :nod:

Given the number of drift boats/rafts afloat on the Trinity at any given time during season, I'm not surprised that many are operated by unlicensed/non-permitted guides. However, I'll bet that a bunch of 'em are legitimately captained by their owners with friends on board (....whether or not they share trip expenses). Nearly every Steelhead/Trout fisherman in this area owns a drift boat or raft. 8-)

Obviously there's no problem with asking to see if a particular boat operator is a licensed/permitted guide. But, if the answer to that question is that the individuals are buddies, you've just got to accept that. :-|

If the person you confront decides not to answer, you need to take some initiative on your own. That means call BLM/DFG enforcement or check on-line to find out if the person you identify is a licensed/permitted guide. Every guide I've met, recently, has a mobile phone to call in to check. Even if those agencies don't have personnel available at the moment, you can help by taking photo's and/or making notes (who, where, when info). :-k

Lets make this clear, I'm not advocating any vigilante stuff. :-s Just gather info and give it to the law enforcement people. Then go on about your own fishing business.... :-)

[Charlie S]

What Darian said in his second paragraph. I have been on many private boats, either fishing or behind the oars when sharing a trip with friends. No, I would not lie for an unpermitted guide and think that their guide license should be revoked if they did do that. I fish with guides and I make sure they are on the river legally before I start so that's not a problem for me.

But, please don't paint a blanket claim over everyone. Many of us are on the river having a good time with friends while fishing various rivers in the Western States. Saving gas and sharing time with friends is the main reason three of us are in a boat so don't make judgements without full information, please.

[Lance Gray]

My wife and I own a guide company, and we do everything above board. First and foremost it is the right thing to do. Second it is safe. We pride ourselves on hard work and playing by the rules.

Kirsten & I personally don't guide the Trinity. If I have a guest that wants to fish the Trinity I simply book them with another guide that does. (With all the permits).

It is good business and good for the sport of fly fishing.

Maybe we should find these guides that are trying to make a buck without the special permits and extend a hand to them. Help them with the resources and explain to them why it is so important. Help them. And if that doesn't work - well in my other profession we simply flip out the old ticket book or slap on the sterling bracelets!
Lance Gray
Fly Guide
530-517-2204
http://www.lancegrayandcompany.com

[NCL]

As Dave pointed out, how do I as a consumer know if a guide has the proper permits? If the issue of non-permitted guide is becoming a problem then it would advantageous for the legimate guides to form an association to to lobby the state legislature to enact stricter laws against this type of behavior. If the penalties become stiff enough then people will think twice about taking the chance. There was mention of limited enforcement, but what are the penalties if caught guiding without the permits?

[Ben Kobrin]

http://www.trinityriverguidesassociation.com/

Not all permitted guides are members, but there is a link to the BLM page that lists all permitted guides.

[Terry Thomas]

I believe all permitted guides have BLM stickers on their boats/rafts and their trailers. If you don't see a sticker, you might ask why?

[Troutstalker55B]

I echo Lance’s response. When I first started guiding I got caught up in who’s legal and who’s not, all it did for me was cause grief and gray hair and took away the fun of running a guide service. Now I could care less, I’m only concerned about the fisheries health, and my clients having a good time.

NCL – I think that is a great idea. All of us legal guides fork out quite a bit of money to be legit. As to “How do we know if a guide is legal”? Just ask to see their licenses, permits, etc. I have on site with me a copy of my guide license, bond, insurance, and forest service permit at all times.
Jon.

[huntindog]

i am not a guide but i have many friends that are....do not assume that when you see a known guide boat on the trinity that they are guiding. I fished with a good friend and his mom on the trinity two weeks ago...we were verbally challenged by asshole guides more than once on the trip...hell i was behind the oars more than half the time so my buddy could fish....it is the dipshit guides (half of whom are guiding off of one license) that think they own the river that need to be bitch slapped.

[huntindog]

Do you really want to be in that boat when a permitted guide asks your host "Are you guiding?", will you lie for your host? Is that right? And ask yourself, is this person really looking out for the best interest of this majestic river?

do i really want to be with that asshole guide that thinks he is a cop....

[NCL]

Just ask to see their licenses, permits, etc. I have on site with me a copy of my guide license, bond, insurance, and forest service permit at all times.
Jon.[/QUOTE]


Jon,

You are of course correct, but to me a guide trip is a major treat that I can afford on occasion so the last thing on my mind is the guides permits and licenses. I am primarily thinking the success of the trip, also I am not even sure if I did ask to look at those documents I would know what I was looking at. Probably I should become more familiar with those documents but it something, until this thread came up, that I ever thought about.

I also think your comment about "more concerned about the health of the fishery" is spot on but that is a topic for another thread.

[Fly Guy Dave]

As I mentioned in my previous reply, all of the licensed guides on the Green have a large sticker affixed to the bow and stern of their boats, indicating their membership in a Green River guides association, but they also do a very good job of letting anglers know what those stickers mean. They have prominent signs at the put-ins explaining what it means and why its important, and I imagine that the shops in the area only steer clients to those guides that are members of the association. I imagine that this could be done on the Trinity as well, but they would have a wider area to cover when working with fly shops, as well as many more put-ins on the river.

Naturally, there are going to be other boats on the water, so hopefully people would assume that the people that are there with friends or family are on private boats and aren't being guided illegally. It can be pretty obvious sometimes when someone is guiding someone else, based on their actions and words. It would also be a drag to have a river full of Barney Fife-like river enforcers. But Jon's point is well taken, and when it all comes down to it, the health of the fishery is paramount. No fish...no angling...no guides...no fun for anybody.

Cheers!

--F.G. Dave

[huntindog]

well i'm not about to get a guided trip but i have taken a different approach. you see someone without stickers guiding... and yes it is easy to tell, give them and their clients a piece of your mind. the more vulgar the better, if nothing else the clients will think hey if i had a legitimate guide I wouldn't have people yelling at me.

thats bullshit...guiding or being paid to guide...a guide can take friends and family and have almost the same approach on the river...that is exactly what happened to us...dipshit, asshole, not-so-smart guides giving us a piece of their mind...it got to the point where we were worried about our vehicles at the put in and take out, made it tough to enjoy the trip...screw (modified from my original word of choice) the self rightous guides and their "I own the river" attitude.

[JGB]

Totally absurd.

Doesn't cursing, pulling your hair and stomping your feet always get you what you want? No? Well then, congratulations, unlike some, you have learned a thing or two about life.

(I suppose it could be a lame attempt at a troll? In that case we're both guppies!)