Swing vs Indicator Nymphing

[DAVID95670]

What are the conditions when it is good to swing wet fly vs indicator nymphing for Steelhead?

I was reading some of these posts and there is a reference to both and the relative effectiveness of each......

Anyone care to shed some light?

[Mike O]

Whooo boy! You stepped in it now!

Before the pontificators start, each has its pros and cons, but they are up to the fish...not thre fishers

[JGB]

Generally speaking(seasons, rivers and available gear all make a difference)...

Swing shallower water, at each end of the day, when less light on the water, tailouts, shadows, heads of runs above and below deeper/holding water, rifflely water, edges of deeper water or fast water, shallower water in rock gardens between holding water, umm...holding water,...

Bobicate deeper, slower water with consistant depth, when fishing mid-day or bright days, when ambient and water temps are colder, when no room to backcast, when fishing from a boat, when no one is looking,...

Once you learn to fish without the bobicator you will catch many more fish, both trout and steelhead. Especially trout. Bobicating is good for when you are learning, but once you learn how to non-bobicate you won't go back. Just use a shorter, heavier leader with maybe a little more weight. You will tend to lose more terminal gear though. Quite often, if you lose the bobber, you will catch fish "on the swing" with the nymph anyway, but the hook-up will just be just a little closer to you than if you threw out 50-80 ft of line. Still just as thrilling.

...but I get skunked often too, so... :-\",

[Jaybinder]

"when no one is looking,"... :lol:


Best line ever.

[Scott V]

Last year I fished the same section of the America for halfpounders and tried both patterns. I got fish both ways but nothing beats a hit on the swing. I did get a couple more on a indicator compared to swinging, but that might have just been due to one day fishing better than the other.

[NCL]

Since your question referenced "conditions" and "wet flies" versus "nymphs" here would be my limited experience answer. I would and do fish a swing fly earlier when the water is warmed and the fish are more active and will move to a fly if they are so inclined. As the water gets colder and the fish hold deeper and are less likely to move indicator fishing with a nymph can be more effective. One caveat to that last statement would be you can swing flies on a sinking line with sinking tips but you have to be down at the fishes depth thus the reference to "slow and low". Both methods work and it sometimes just comes down to personnal preference.

[jbird]

Since your question referenced "conditions" and "wet flies" versus "nymphs" here would be my limited experience answer. I would and do fish a swing fly earlier when the water is warmed and the fish are more active and will move to a fly if they are so inclined. As the water gets colder and the fish hold deeper and are less likely to move indicator fishing with a nymph can be more effective. One caveat to that last statement would be you can swing flies on a sinking line with sinking tips but you have to be down at the fishes depth thus the reference to "slow and low". Both methods work and it sometimes just comes down to personnal preference.

^^^this^^^

[aaron]

NCL sums it up nicely. Although fish will grab in cold water, people just tend to lose confidence. A lot depends on the river as well, certain rivers tend to swing even when cold whereas others don't. Both work and can be fun, just be confident in whatever method you chose.

[Sammy]

when no one is looking,...

",

Yeah, it's bobicating is a lot like rollerblading

[DAVID95670]

So then I have another question; how many people cast up stream of 45degrees when swinging? I have been pitching flies with about 70 degrees....

This seems like it would work however if the fish does not really grab the fly then I will miss the strike.

Seems like there is a tight line from the get go at 45 degrees.....

Thoughts....?

As for the controversy well I got a spey this fall and diligently attempting to learn the darn thing .... I am liking it however it is different than what i have been doing with a fly rod for the last 20 years!

I am starting to cast smaller nymphs as well... i never really got into the indicators when using a single handed rod i referenced it in the first post because it seems everyone on the west coast uses an indicator...

[thepeacockspecial]

i prefer swinging flies just because i hate setting up my indicator rig. it saves time. i will use an indicator if things get slow, but highly prefer the swing. been using my switch for a year now. i didn't quite understand the whole grains thingy until a few months after, but im loving the 2hand casting, and might just upgrade to a full spey.

[huntindog]

i have to do this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPD8L-AzLV0

[Digger]

that is too damn funny.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

This should get it going.........

__________________________________________________ _____________________

Posted by Mark Saturday, April 17, 2010

This is an interesting article I found about the controversy that indicators caused on the North Umpqua after they were introduced in the late 80's and early 90's. I have personally fished with both Dean and Dave and can say that they are both amazing fishermen, advocates for rivers and fish, and all around good guys. However, I don't think they had any idea what would happen after people got wind of their techniques and started to use them to great effect. Like I said I fished with Dean a lot back in those days(yes with an indicator) and we caught fish, amazing numbers of fish, stupidly amazing numbers of fish. One year during a smaller run, we figured we hooked over a third of the total recorded run. That was just between a few of my buddies and me. We were going out and routinely hooking 5-10 fish. We did this every day. Kind of makes me queasy to say but we did it. Add to that the pressure and skill of guys like Dean and Dave and the rest of the guys out there and dang near every fish that year probably had a hook in his mouth, many were hooked multiple times. That's just wrong people, in so many ways. My little group of friends collectively decided that enough was enough and that what we were doing was impacting fish in a negative way. We stopped nymphing long before it became outlawed and I am glad we saw the light early.

Since then,the surface/dry fly and traditional swing fishing has improved greatly, peoples attitudes,etiquette and river experience has been far more positive. Ultimately the impact on the fish has been lessened and they have that deep water sanctuary in which to rest. The health of the fishery has been strengthened, and more fish get to spawn without being hooked, it's just a good deal all around. The great success of the North Umpqua and the survival of the wild fish that live there happened because it was regulated. These regulations ensure the future survival of the fishery and help to keep this a river that will always be here for us to fish and enjoy. Other fisheries in decline,take note.

PS-regardless of what you think of me,Dean or any of the other thoughts on nymphing or swinging, Dean and the others do discuss some great thoughts on river etiquette and fishing the way you like, that I fully agree with.

Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong. If it's legal on the river you fish,quit bitchin and go fishin. Or try to get it changed. I think we spend too much time worrying about the other guy and what he is doing. I am guilty of it as well. This year, I am trying to be a kinder,gentler human and worry about myself,and my impact and how I can make a positive contribution more, and what others do less.

Posted by Mark Saturday, April 17, 2010

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[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

The War in Heaven
Steelheaders ask: to bob or swing? That is the question.
As seen in California Fly Fisher,
January/February 2004
© 2004 Jim Zech

War is brewing. You can smell the conflict in the air over our steelhead rivers, wafting amidst the pines like the aroma of a festering salmon carcasses shot full of maggots. Like the great battles of the Civil War, Antietam, Shiloh, or The Battle of the Wilderness, this battle is pitting brother against brother. Or more accurately, fly fisher against fly fisher. Or, even more accurately, those who swing flies for steelhead against those who use nymphs to fish for steelhead.
Well, maybe this battle is a bit more like a game of Parcheesi or checkers than it is a Gettysburg. Yet there is still a deep ideological rift developing among some steelhead fly fishers. So deep, in fact, that there have been laws passed regulating the use of certain of these flyfishing techniques. On 31 miles of Oregon�s famed North Umpqua River it is now illegal to use a weighted fly or an indicator. In other words, those who think that steelhead should be fished with a swung fly have convinced the authorities that it should be against the law to fish for steelhead with a nymph on the North Umpqua. And there is also talk of banning fishing from boats on some popular steelhead rivers in an effort to curtail nymph fishing.
But this is crazy, isn’t it? After all, isn’t this dispute akin to pro bassers getting in a fistfight over the efficacy of the crankbait vs. the jig-n-pig? In other words, isn’t this a remarkably idiotic and trivial conflict? Maybe it is, but then again, maybe it is not.
Before we go further, let me (attempt to) briefly describe the two techniques:

The steelhead swing is the traditional technique where a streamer-type fly or even dry fly is cast across the river, usually angled downstream from the angler to some degree. The fly is then pulled across the river by the force of the current against the line and the fly. The fly is held under tension by the taut line and thus “swings” across the river. The usual approach to fishing this technique is to start at the top of a run and methodically work your way down, taking a step or two between each cast and swing.
Nymphing for steelhead usually involves the use of weight on the leader and/or a weighted fly or flies. An indicator is often used to help detect the take of a fish and also frequently to help float the fly at a certain depth, generally right above the bottom of the river. This technique is frequently employed by repeatedly running a fly through the most probable holding water in a run�the “bucket”.
Now how could the use of either of these techniques possibly cause concern, conflict, and consternation among steelhead fly fishers? To help better understand the use of these techniques and to help explain why there is potential conflict concerning their use, I have asked several prominent Northern California and Southern Oregon Steelhead anglers for their opinions on this subject.

by Jim Zech

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[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Ken Morrish, Writer, Photographer, Owner Flywater Travel

My preferences are really quite simple. First, I prefer to fish for steelhead over any other fish, and secondly I prefer catching steelhead to not catching them. As far as techniques are concerned, I love them all. Skating dries, greased line fishing, swinging tips, high sticking and indicator fishing all bring me great pleasure in their proper context but to say which technique is best, most productive, or pleasurable is, in my opinion, absurd as conditions vary so greatly from season to season, river to river and even run to run.
My basic philosophy is to match my techniques to the conditions at hand, while at the same time factoring in pleasure quotient. If I am on a glassy well-rested section of summer steelhead water and all the conditions are right I will often opt for fishing a skater. Not only is it exciting, but it works damn well and can actually be the most effective technique under certain circumstances. Likewise, if just around the bend there is a deep narrow slot with a seductive seam, I will yearn for the indicator. Interestingly, as time goes by I find myself wanting to fish the swing more and more because in and of itself I find the technique more pleasurable than indicator fishing. Its easy on the arm, conducive to long casts and spey rods, and the takes and tugs are hard to beat. But, in the same breath, many of my favorite winter rivers are too crowded in the lower reaches where the swing fishing is best. As a result, I head up into the slotted canyons where I find solitude and water far better suited to the indicator.
These days there are countless anglers in the readership whose angling success is predicated on trout based indicator techniques and as an extension of what they know, they use the technique for steelhead irrespective of conditions or prevailing traditions. On the Umpqua this became an issue. Here, in situation where fish clearly concentrate, it was remarkably effective and eventually lead to a clash of cultures. What nympher would willingly leave the bucket without fully milking it? This could take all day. Why should the dry line anglers be allowed to fish through (as they have for the past 80 years)? Etiquette has become increasingly important on our crowded rivers yet it is seldom taught in today’s fend-for-yourself, I-got-here-first, world of fishing. Were the issues at hand truly biological (for the traditionalists battle cry was that nymphers repeated catching of staged fish stressed the population), the Umpqua�s famed Camp Water would have closed to angling altogether, for in the end a fish cannot distinguish between the hook of a nympher or a traditionalist. But as with all ideological struggles, one faction will always end up taking it in the shorts and this case it was the new kids on the block.
As a side note, while nyphing is deadly effective over concentrated fish on systems like the Umpqua, set those same nymphers out on the Skagit, Thompson, Bulkley or Skeena and they would be remarkably ineffective and a laughing stock because big broad systems with vast amounts of holding water are far better fished on the swing.

Ken Morrish, Writer, Photographer, Owner Flywater Travel

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[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Jeff Bright, author of "Found in a River: Steelhead & Other Revelations"

The decision of whether to occupy your precious time on a steelhead river swinging flies or free-drifting flies under an indicator–or even dapping f rom an overhanging tree branch–is in my view a personal one and predicated on what you want to get out of your angling experience. This is a self-serving perspective, however, and I do think there are considerations of conservation a nd ethics to influence your choice. But first, let’s assume it’s all about me
It’s been said steelhead are the ultimate freshwater, flyrod gamefish. When I string up a rod to pursue them I want to give them the best chance to be just that. To that end, all of my steelhead flyfishing and strategizing time is aimed at one thing: putting myself in position for THE BIG GRAB. I fish particular rivers, particular water on those rivers and particular times of the year on those rivers specifically to give myself the best opportunity to experience the instance when a hot steelhead grabs my fly swinging across the current on a tight line and immediately turns and bolts hell-bent for a far corner of the pool, usually vaulting through the air numerous times on its way. This is the charged moment when I’m most connected on a creature-to-creature level and when all the wildness in the fish, the very essence of its will to survive, is most fully injected into my relatively comfy reality. Largely because of the Big Grab, the steelhead gained its legendary stature and has made some us go more than a little nutty.
The key to experiencing the Big Grab is that the line must be tight to the fly when an aggressive, territorial fish moves to intercept it. When this happens, the fish immediately feels resistance as it turns to head back to its station and its flight response kicks in. (I’ve read that steelhead are the fastest swimming freshwater fish and can reach 40 miles per hour very quickly, so the “kick-in” can be substantial.) This translates into your rod being nearly yanked from your hands, the reel screaming, line hissing through the water, a silvery phantom crashing through the river�s roof and you standing slack-jawed–or whooping, depending on your disposition–all in simultaneous splendor.
Indicator nymphing is deadly, no two ways about it, and requires more than a fair amount of skill–most times, more skill than swinging flies. But, by design, you can�t get the Big Grab employing this method. By the parameters of the technique there must be some slack in the line to get a natural drift. Therefore, when the fish takes the fly, you�re not likely to feel it until you strike and remove the slack line between your rod and the fly. At this point what I’m after has already happened–the opportunity to feel the “thousand volts of the firmament,” as Enos Bradner put it some 50 years ago, has passed.
While I may angle for steelhead using traditional techniques for self-involved, sensory reasons, I also feel like the traditional method has its merit from a conservation standpoint. When returning to their rivers, steelhead are migratory animals with a finite amount of energy in reserve and no instinctual intent to replenish that reserve before spawning. Each stressful encounter for the fish will take its toll and perhaps hinder its ability to make more of the fish we love. So, by targeting the players, the fish that will move for a fly, I am targeting those that have the energy reserves to play our game. My feeling is if a steelhead won�t move for a swinging fly, there�s a good reason and it should probably be left alone. It needs the rest and instinct is telling it so.
There was a time, many decades ago, when steelhead stocks could withstand indiscriminate angling pressure. Those days are likely gone forever, at least for our foreseeable lifetimes–too many people, too much pressure from development and progress, too much loss of habitat, too many places much less wild than they used to be. I firmly believe being a steelhead flyfisher today is as much as about stewardship and being an advocate for the fish and their rivers as it about hooking six fish a day. It’s up to us to take care of what we love because there are forces that see only dollar signs where wild rivers flow and these forces have the weight of history behind them.
Considering the well being of the resource, and that of my own, my credo is: Catch less fish, but better fish, so that we can fish at all.

Jeff Bright, author, phographer

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[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Bill Lowe, Northern California Fly Fishing Guide

Indo-nymph or swing? Tastes great or less filling? Hump or die? All good questions and each worthy of thoughtful conversation…none right or wrong, just matters of opinion (except for the last question). My response to the first question is loosely based on nine years of guiding experience on the Yuba, American, and Feather Rivers where we get runs of fall (Yuba and Feather) and winter (American) fish. Let me just start out with my philosophy on fishing…fishing is fishing. No matter how you go about it, it comes down to where you’re fishing, whom you�re fishing with, and enjoying how you�re fishing. Hell, you could be pulling weeds!
Without a doubt, or even much pondering, the majority of adult steelhead that I�ve had the opportunity at helping anglers catch have been caught under a strike-indo. I remember a fair number of those fish and those anglers who caught them. I remember almost each and every steelhead that was caught on the swing. Selective memory, you ask? No. Too few to forget? No. Then why?
To perform either technique effectively, some skill is usually required by the angler. “Usually” negates the occasional fish that decides to eat your offering as it hangs downstream of you while you�re still fastening your wading belt. We all still count these fish but they never really feel as good as those where we are actually TRYING. Most folks know how to perform a dead-drift, with a strike-indo, and therefore are somewhat confident while fishing that way, although I�m still privy to a fair amount of “indo-swinging” or “not-so-dead-drifting.” What I have found interesting is how many anglers don�t really know how to swing-fish, although I’m repeatedly hearing, “Yeah, swinging is just kinda cast across the river and hold on.”
There are three main things that I repeatedly see anglers do when they step into a run for some swinging. They hardly ever start high enough in the run so that their fly could be eaten by the fish who is laying in the very top corner of the inside soft water&ellip;the top “step” of the run, if you will. That�s where the next fish to ascend the riffle is resting. The second situation that I’m constantly tuning is the angle at which swingers are casting their lines and presenting their flies. Remember, if your line isn’t under tension you won�t feel the grab. The more towards that ideal 45 degree d ownstream angle the fly hits the water, the more quickly your line is under tension and the more likely you’re going to feel the grab. The third problem that folks have is letting moss grow on their wading boots. MOVE! This is a mine sweeping exercise or an Easter egg hunt. Once you�ve determined that there are no mines or eggs or aggressive steelhead in your immediate swing arc, take a big step downstream and try to find one. Repeat this process after each swing. Now you’re moving, you’re swingin’, you’re taking a hike through steelhead water.
To me, swing fishing isn�t better than indo-nymphing, it is just more fun. With the indo you have to deal with the mental game of, “was that a fish, or a rock?” Of course, we all should be optimistic…it was definitely a fish. If you feel something pulling your swung-fly, it was a fish. Period.

Bill Lowe, Northern California Fly Fishing Guide


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[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Herb Burton, Owner Trinity River Fly Shop and Fly Fishing Guide

I personally hate to read or yet become involved with any black and white issue that may encourage putting a wedge between fellow anglers. I would like to believe we all share a common bond. Material supporting extreme or harsh positions generally only creates dissension between anglers.
Flyfishing history has revealed that anglers have raised hackles over origins, theories, techniques, equipment, fly fashions (natural-synthetics) and flies since the evolution of the sport. The heated Halford/Skues “Dry-Wet Fly” debate of the late 1800’s is just one classic example of anglers attempting to split hairs.
The steelhead swing versus nymph/indicators is no different, Mr. Zech simply sets the stage for another round of debate for those choosing to jump in and attack. Both techniques are popular, require varied skill levels and at times are remarkably effective. Yet, each supports a definitive preference or position among fly fishers.
Captivated by steelhead flyfishing at a very young age, I have been a devoted traditional swing steelheader for over 30 years. The depth, mystic, heritage, excitement and pleasure, and high levels of accomplishment all blend together to make steelhead swing techniques so effective, desirable and ultimately satisfying. It is what steelhead fly fishing means to me.
When compared to traditional swing techniques, steelhead nymph fishing with indicators is relatively new, yet the use of bobbers/floats has been around since God knows when, and has been modified and popularized a growing number of new and younger up and coming group of steelhead anglers.
Much of the controversy that I have experienced regarding nymph/indicator steelhead fishing is not so much the technique itself but rather the �bad habits� that have evolved with and stem from the technique by some of the anglers who fish it. Up front, most noticeable and disappointing:
1). Non-rotation fishing–increasing numbers of nymph/indicator anglers unwilling to make a pass or fish through a run. Preferring instead to “park-it,” dominating known popular waters for extended periods of time–hours even days�thus preventing others the opportunity to fish. (Umpqua�s “Boundry Pool” is a prime example of water subjected to such harassment).
2). Getting cut off/snaked–Nymph/indicator techniques when used from drift boats or other floating devices, especially by aggressive guides, fished in front of and below wading anglers working a run.
3). Hole-hogging–Anchoring in known popular steelhead waters for extended periods of time, pounding the hell out of the water and preventing others the opportunity to fish.
What to do? What not to do? Should anything be done? Certainly! The question is how to keep peace, make friends, and preserve the magic? Simple�respect fellow anglers. Demonstrate proper stream/boating ethics. Treat other anglers the way you would like to be treated. Our fisheries are for everyone, regardless of fly fishing technique. No one technique is better than the other, although there are a few twisted egos that may feel otherwise. But who really cares? What does steelhead flyfishing mean to you?

Herb Burton

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[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Dean Schubert

Over twenty five years ago, when Dave Hickson and I, along with a few other Bay Area flyfishing friends, created and started to develop right angle nymphing with yarn indicators, little did we imagine that this technique would eventually become so popular in the flyfishing community, nor the controversy it would arouse.
We invented yarn indicators as a means of problem solving; to present small nymphs in a realistic dead drift manner in deeper weed channels to huge selective brown trout on the Trinity River in northern California. Unbeknownst to many fly anglers today, The Trinity, back in the 70�s, was probably one of the finest brown trout fisheries in North America. It was not uncommon to see 12 to 15 pounders, or larger, on any given day. Since then, gross mismanagement by both state and federal government agencies, in my opinion, doomed this incredible brown trout fishery to mediocrity. I still fish it, however, for it is a decent steelhead river, and I love flyfishing for steelhead.
If I had been born, swaddled, and raised in the classic steelhead traditions of the Northwest, I would probably have a much different outlook on the flyfishing methods I currently enjoy and employ. But I wasn’t. And I don’t.
I grew up fishing for trout since the age of four. When I moved west in my early twenties and started flyfishing for steelhead, I simply thought of them as trout; beautiful, bigger perhaps, more explosive, but trout nonetheless. At first, I learned to fish for them in the traditional manner, mostly on the coast in the winter. However, after refining our indicator methods, Dave and I saw no “conflict” in applying this technique in our steelheading, just another problem solving exercise, which, to me is the most enjoyable aspect of flyfishing.
We couldn’t fish this way in a traditional coastal steelhead line up, as it would interfere with other anglers. So we walked upstream where few would go, or went to less popular rivers. We had heard about the beauty of North Umpqua and it�s quality fishery. It took me two or three trips there, I recall, before I hooked my first fish; on the swing. Soaking wet, I landed that fish after stumbling and swimming from Station down to Upper Boat Pool, but I was jacked! What I liked most about the Umpqua, aside from the physical attributes, was the etiquette that was traditionally practiced there. If a car was already parked at a roadside turnout, you went somewhere else. If you came downstream on another angler, you would give them wide berth and not reenter the river until a full pool below, or farther. If you were fishing in a pool that held several steelhead, and you were lucky enough to hook one or two, you did not spend all day there trying to catch the rest. You�d reel up and move on and give another angler an opportunity. Flyfishing, to me, is not a team sport, and I love the solitude of this immersion in nature by myself or with a friend. The etiquette on the Umpqua provided this experience and I would rarely encounter another angler on the river because of it.
Dave and I began indicator fishing on the Umpqua and we landed large numbers of steelhead. Resident fly anglers began hearing about this new method and the success we were having.. Some were curious, some didn’t care, and many were openly hostile. The angry ones perceived us as outsiders that were catching THEIR fish using unfair techniques. We were accused of having bad manners, snagging fish, and fighting fish till they were exhausted. We, in their minds, were no better than the bait fisherman who, through the efforts of the active local fly club, had been historically excluded from this river section, a rarity in Oregon, or anywhere else. I was glad that bait fishing was not allowed for the obvious conservation reasons. I was upset at the accusations from fellow flyfishermen, however, after fishing hundreds of days on the Umpqua and hooking probably over a thousand steelhead there, my experiences were the opposite; I witnessed a higher degree of foul hooking from swing fishermen using fast sinking lines. I saw swing fishermen apply so little pressure to hooked fish that they finally landed them when they turned belly up and I watched near dead fish float by me as they drifted downstream. I saw steelhead killed day after day by experienced fly anglers because they were “hatchery fish” (even though Umpqua hatchery fish are supposedly biotypical) or they only took “one or two” wild fish a year for that special dinner to impress their friends. And as far as etiquette on the Umpqua, I experienced boorish behavior and poor etiquette primarily from traditionalists. It is incredibly arrogant for an angler to approach another angler fishing legally onstream and then proceed to tell them how they should be fishing. When I fish on my favorite brown trout river and see a couple of guys fishing spinning rods, big jigs and plastic grubs, do I like it? Not at all, but as long as those guys aren�t breaking the law, such as stuffing bloody dead fish into their daypacks, it would be inappropriate for me to comment. Do I dislike swing fishermen or swing fishing because of this? No, these were acts of individuals who didn�t know better or didn�t care. I like to fish dries, subsurface greased line, and swing deep for steelhead even more now than in my younger days.
Here’s the deal. Did we indicator guys, by sticking large numbers of steelhead, make it more difficult for the average traditionalist to hook fish in the same water, even if we observed local etiquette, and, in fact, usually fished mid day when most were off the water? Most certainly! It’s a selfish act, its not a team sport, and fishing pressure is fishing pressure. Steelhead, like all trout, become more selective. Did I expect the traditionalists to like this and embrace us for it? Hell no. If I put myself in their position, I wouldn’t like it either, just like the spin fishers on my brown trout stream. But proper etiquette suggests that one refrains from comments and goes about one�s own business. Did we damage the resource, i. e. the viability of steelhead trout populations in the North Umpqua by fishing indicators? No, no more than any other fly techniques. I�ve had the opportunity to fish with many of the local professional guides and experts from the Umpqua over the years. My experience tells me that regardless of what fly techniques they use; dry, damp, drowned, they can all catch numbers of fish with surprising regularity because they wade well, cast well, spot fish well, know the water like the back of their hand, and spend more time fishing and less time whining.
Although flyfishing is categorized by law as “sportfishing,” it�s not a sport to me, it�s an art. Art allows a participant to express ones personality, likes and dislikes, to suit oneself. What’s better, oil painting or watercolors? Art changes and evolves as does fishing. I like indicator fishing because it gives me the greatest satisfaction in terms of skills; tackle selection and design, casting, aerial mending, depth control, and fly selection. In my mind, when done well, it is the most difficult form of fishing to master. But hey, that�s just my opinion.
I have little time to discuss these matters these days. When an all knowing sage approaches me, rudely uninvited, on the river and starts to inform me about the error of my ways, I inform him or her that I have a fishing license, that I am fishing legally, and thank them for their interest, but that they are probably under a misconception. He or she usually blinks and asks what that might be. I look them in the eye and reply “I�m not out here to please you. I�m out here to please myself.”
Viva le difference! Viva G.E.M. Skues!

by Dean Schubert

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[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Ralph Cutter, photographer, writer, and operator of California School of Flyfishing.

It wasn’t too many years ago we had a presidential race. The Green candidate had his style for preserving our natural resources and the Democratic candidate had his style. They spent so much time arguing over style, they both lost to a Republican who is now doing his best to turn steelhead habitat into rows of subsidized cotton.
The argument regarding the relative merits and faults of steelhead swingers versus bobicaters is ludicrous and picayune. Despite some pretty lame arguments to the contrary, the issue isn’t one of ethics, morality, or resource conservation; it is one of style.
If we can’t see the forest through the trees and start fighting for the resource as a body rather than squabbling amongst themselves over esoteric fishing techniques, there won’t be any steelhead left to argue over. Maybe we just don’t deserve steelhead; they certainly don’t deserve us.

by Ralph Cutter

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[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Indicator Fishing or Swinging Flies for Steelhead by Bill Kiene


On our Nor Cal valley rivers in the winter we have cold water, mostly hatchery fish (but not all) and fish that are getting ready to spawn too. We also have salmon spawning. This is a tough time and place to swing flies for Steelhead. Fishing with the indicator/nymph/egg system is the most effective way to fish in this situation. If you try to intercept these migrating fish down river before they get to the spawning areas near the hatcheries you can catch them swinging flies.

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After chasing Steelhead for over 40 years I have become spoiled. I mostly fish in the time periods that are good for swinging flies on a floating line. This is when the water is above 50 degrees. Much of this time is Aug/Sept/Oct on many rivers from Nor Cal all the way to British Columbia. Fishing early and late in the day, especially with the sun off the water is another important part of this type of fishing. Having fresh run wild fish doesn't hurt either.

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Fly fishing for Nor Cal Steelhead is best in Sept/Oct/Nov on many rivers. As you go further north the Fall gets there faster so Sept/Oct/Nov in BC can turn cold quickly and you need to go to sink tips but can still swing flies.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______


My information is not just from my experiences, it is from looking at this a lot and talking to hundreds of people over the years. I talk and fish with many top Steelhead fly fishers and guides so this keeps more centered for the best information I can have to share with friends/customers.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______


The closest good place and time for swinging flies on a floating line are our Valley Rivers in spring (March/April/May with no flooding) and in the Fall (Sept/Oct/Nov) when the Halfpounder Steelhead (12" to 22") are in the rivers with warmer water temps and bugs hatching.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______


The closest really high quality place and time is the lower Klamath River in Sept/Oct. The scoop here is to fish the lower river with a jet boat in September. The middle river, Orleans to Happy Camp, can be fished by car and walking but floating with a drift boat guide in October is very nice. November above Happy Camp can be good but you might need to get a little deeper with a sink tip line.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______


The Trinity River is a sweetheart and a smaller river but its timing is a little later like Sept/Oct/Nov for swinging flies. Try the lower Trinity River in Sept/Oct from the mouth of the South Fork of the Trinity downstream through the Hoopa Reservation. By November many Steelhead have moved up through the system from the hatchery downstream to Big Bar but the river is colder then and extremely crowded with the "indicator commandos". The cold water, crowds, spawning salmon all make swing flies less effective.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______


In Oregon we have many great rivers like the entire Rogue, the North Umpqua , the entire Deschutes , the Grande Ronde and then it just keeps going north to Washington and then British Columbia.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____.


Over the years I have been very lucky to have fish enough of these good rivers to know the difference. Once you wade in a great river like the Klamath in the Fall and hooked those hot 'Halfpounders' swinging an un-weighted fly on a 6 weight floating line you will be after them for life. The reality is that this fishing is not really that difficult. You just need to be there and be able to cast a little.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____


I was lucky to have been able to fish the famous Dean River in British Columbia in August for two weeks once with Joe Shirshac and friends. It was about 20 years ago but seems like yesterday. We drove most of the way up there from California and then took a helicopter from Bella Coola in where they dropped us off on one of Joe's favorite remote camping spots (~17 miles) up river away from the other campers.

We spent the first day just making a camp site so we would be comfortable. It was one of the best trips of my lifetime. Sitting around the fire in the evening listening to stories told by the elders of the group was very special.

We fished for the first week with shooting heads, sink tips and floaters but then soon learned that when the water was in good shape we only needed a floating line. We hooked wild summer run Steelhead from about 8 to 16 pounds daily and then a few in the 20 pound plus range. Many where on dry flies. Some even “dead drifted” dry flies. This is considered by most Steelheaders to be the best river in the world.

After a trip like that it is hard to get we excited about indicator fishing for tired hatchery fish in our Valley river in the winter.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____



Spey / two handed fishing has actually helped get classic Steelheading started again. Graphite materials have made the long (11-16' ) two handed rods lighter and better casting tools. Here in Nor Cal we are lucky to have plenty of larger rivers to fish with the long rods.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____



In the 1980s, after the big drought of the late 1970s, I was afraid that Steelheading had almost gone away completely. In the mid-1990s it seemed to be coming back with runs on the Trinity, Klamath and Roque getting stronger.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

Today we do have some fly fishing guides and instructors who promote classic Steelhead techniques.



Jason Hartwick specializes in two-handed fishing on some of the best Nor Cal Steelhead rivers.

Jeff Putnam teaches single-handed and two-handed classic Steelhead methods in Nor Cal and southern Oregon.

Herb Burton, owner of the Trinity Fly Shop on the Trinity River, is one of those guides who only 'swings' flies for Steelhead.

Confluence Outfitters is another good guide group for classic Steelheading with two-handed rods.

Deschutes Angler on the Deschutes River in Maupin, Oregon teaches and guides classic Steelheading with two-handed rods.

Scott O'Donnell and Mike McCune guide and teach classic Steelheading with two-handed rods in OR and WA year round.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____



If you pick the right time and right place you too can catch Steelhead while swinging flies on a floating line.




Bill Kiene

email : billkiene@kiene.com

toll free USA open 7 days a week 800 400 0359

[Al Baltz]

Thank you Bill for the great reading!

[JGB]

Put a nickel in and get a quarters worth!

Good stuff!

(I still won't rollerblade though!)

[Larry S]

Thanks, Bill.
At this rate, you'll soon reach 11,000! LOL.
Best,
Larry S

[Don Powell]

Over my maturation as a steelheader, I eagerly embraced "bobicating" and became fairly accomplished at it on our Northern California rivers...
As I hooked, landed and saw these magnificent creatures, I thought they deserved to be experienced in a more "sporting" manner.
My richest moments have occurred when I hooked and less often landed them on the swing- floating line with a long leader, or hucking some junk to tease them out of deep holding lies in winter... most success in B.C. which I continue to regard as the "ultimate" steelhead experience...
Steelhead remain my favorite species to target and I fish whatever technique works best according to the river, flows and idiosyncrasies that enable me to hold one of these magnificent beauties for a few seconds...

[Rick J]

one problem between those that swing and those that indie fish is swing guys usually accuse the indie guys of camping on a run - an indie guy just cant' fish in the same manner as a swing guy who casts out generally quartering downstream then takes 3 to 4 steps down and does the same cast - he is covering the entire water as far as his cast can reach.

An indie guy on the other hand is just covering a single current seam with each cast so to cover the entire width that the swing guy is covering he needs multiple casts - thus it takes alot longer to fish through a run and he gets accused of camping on a run - And I have seen both swing guys and indie guys camp on runs on the N Umpqua.

I swing and will high stick but am not a fan of indicators but no question they are effective - more so when the key holding areas are distinct and less so when you have a wide river with relatively constant conditions where fish can be holding anywhere

[JGB]

Johnny Unitas or Tom Brady?

Dual Quads or Fuel Injection?

Marilyn or Heidi?

Ascot or Clip-on?

Vodka Martini or Appletini? (never mind...)

Jack LaLanne or Jillian What'sherface?

.
.
.

Did I leave anything out? (Except my age.)

Whatever works for you, as long as you are a caretaker of the resource.

[Ben Kobrin]

Whatever works for you, as long as you are a caretaker of the resource.

Amen, brother...

[Dustin Revel]

one problem between those that swing and those that indie fish is swing guys usually accuse the indie guys of camping on a run - an indie guy just cant' fish in the same manner as a swing guy who casts out generally quartering downstream then takes 3 to 4 steps down and does the same cast - he is covering the entire water as far as his cast can reach.

An indie guy on the other hand is just covering a single current seam with each cast so to cover the entire width that the swing guy is covering he needs multiple casts - thus it takes alot longer to fish through a run and he gets accused of camping on a run - And I have seen both swing guys and indie guys camp on runs on the N Umpqua.

I swing and will high stick but am not a fan of indicators but no question they are effective - more so when the key holding areas are distinct and less so when you have a wide river with relatively constant conditions where fish can be holding anywhere


Bad etiquette is bad etiquette. campers are campers no matter what method they are using. I personally fish through runs faster with a bobber than i've ever seen anyone swing a run. i like to cover alot of river miles each outing. many times walking way upstream and fishing my way back to my truck. more often than not i find myself making a single pass through each run trying to keep up with my indicator (basically chasing it downriver). only recasting after hook sets and adjusting depth. swing fishermen strip in line, casts, waits for it to swing, steps downstream 3ish steps and repeats, which is probably about 1 step every 20 seconds (faster in narrow streams and faster water) as opposed to stepping downstream at almost the same speed as the water current... but i guess im not orthodox not even by bobber standards.

the most important aspect of indicator fishing is figuring out what kind of water the fish are in on that particular day. sometimes is a speed, sometimes its a certain depth, and it is usually one of 3 things: the inside seam, the far seam,or in the slow water beyond the far seam. if there are 3 people in your party assign a seam to each member and have at it. from my own observations it is a pretty even split on those three locations during the winter. it seems like there is a correlation between water temperature and water speed. this may be because of changing metabolism of the fish or possibly the fact that cold water holds more DO than warm water. from my personal experience it is nearly impossible to get a decent swing beyond the far seam and sometimes the far seam itself especially with willows and other over hanging obstacles. if you are using a sinktip heavy/dense enough to get down on the far seam you are likely not getting a decent swing on the inside seam either. If you were using a bobber you can in many cases cast well above the obstacle and drift your indicator beneath/through it. some runs lend themselves to a swung fly... you know all those runs that are the same depth and speed all the way across where the fish don't hold on either edge( oh yeah basketball sized rocks help as well). when i find these runs i try to swing them, but usually i just keep moving. cover water, think lines, fish move in lines they do not occupy vast areas of water- they occupy lines/lanes.

the main reason i find myself watching a bobber opposed to swinging is I would rather not carry extra gear 15-20 miles a day so i pick one method, and the method i pick is almost always going to be the method that gives me the best shot at actually catching fish I usually convince somebody (usually my brother) to bring a swing rod (partly so i can swing a run or two partly to sabotage my brother). Im not a fan of walking huge distances in waders especially on warm humid days after the onset of swamp ass. catching steelhead makes it all worth it. getting skunked looking at the pretty scenery for me does very little. Ive spent enough time in the mts to know what they look like.

swinging is a very enjoyable way to fish, but most of the time it is frankly less effective than the dead drift method. to those who look down their noses at indicator fishermen have much different priorities than myself.

to new steelhead fishermen I offer this advice: start with an indicator and after you catch a few fish start playing with swinging flies when the stars align and the conditions lend themselves to a swung fly (water temp over 57ish, overcast/color in the water, low light conditions, aggressive fish etc.). btw this information is pretty much directed at the california coastal rivers and not necessarily anywhere else.

[jbird]

Bad etiquette is bad etiquette. campers are campers no matter what method they are using. I personally fish through runs faster with a bobber than i've ever seen anyone swing a run. i like to cover alot of river miles each outing. many times walking way upstream and fishing my way back to my truck. more often than not i find myself making a single pass through each run trying to keep up with my indicator (basically chasing it downriver). only recasting after hook sets and adjusting depth. swing fishermen strip in line, casts, waits for it to swing, steps downstream 3ish steps and repeats, which is probably about 1 step every 20 seconds (faster in narrow streams and faster water) as opposed to stepping downstream at almost the same speed as the water current... but i guess im not orthodox not even by bobber standards.

the most important aspect of indicator fishing is figuring out what kind of water the fish are in on that particular day. sometimes is a speed, sometimes its a certain depth, and it is usually one of 3 things: the inside seam, the far seam,or in the slow water beyond the far seam. if there are 3 people in your party assign a seam to each member and have at it. from my own observations it is a pretty even split on those three locations during the winter. it seems like there is a correlation between water temperature and water speed. this may be because of changing metabolism of the fish or possibly the fact that cold water holds more DO than warm water. from my personal experience it is nearly impossible to get a decent swing beyond the far seam and sometimes the far seam itself especially with willows and other over hanging obstacles. if you are using a sinktip heavy/dense enough to get down on the far seam you are likely not getting a decent swing on the inside seam either. If you were using a bobber you can in many cases cast well above the obstacle and drift your indicator beneath/through it. some runs lend themselves to a swung fly... you know all those runs that are the same depth and speed all the way across where the fish don't hold on either edge( oh yeah basketball sized rocks help as well). when i find these runs i try to swing them, but usually i just keep moving. cover water, think lines, fish move in lines they do not occupy vast areas of water- they occupy lines/lanes.

the main reason i find myself watching a bobber opposed to swinging is I would rather not carry extra gear 15-20 miles a day so i pick one method, and the method i pick is almost always going to be the method that gives me the best shot at actually catching fish I usually convince somebody (usually my brother) to bring a swing rod (partly so i can swing a run or two partly to sabotage my brother). Im not a fan of walking huge distances in waders especially on warm humid days after the onset of swamp ass. catching steelhead makes it all worth it. getting skunked looking at the pretty scenery for me does very little. Ive spent enough time in the mts to know what they look like.

swinging is a very enjoyable way to fish, but most of the time it is frankly less effective than the dead drift method. to those who look down their noses at indicator fishermen have much different priorities than myself.

to new steelhead fishermen I offer this advice: start with an indicator and after you catch a few fish start playing with swinging flies when the stars align and the conditions lend themselves to a swung fly (water temp over 57ish, overcast/color in the water, low light conditions, aggressive fish etc.). btw this information is pretty much directed at the california coastal rivers and not necessarily anywhere else.

Excellent! 100% agree with everything you said.

[Rick J]

Dustin- depending on the river, I would question that your description will really cover all the good holding water in a run. If you make one cast and follow it down, you are really fishing one current seam - if the run is 70 feet wide with boulders throughout, there is no way you are covering all the effective water using this technique - if I make a 80 foot quartering downstream cast and let it swing across the current I am showing my fly to all the fish in that particular reach

On smaller rivers where holding lies are pretty easy to determine, it may be possible to make a single cast and effectively cover the good holding water

[DAVID95670]

I have to apologize for asking this question. I was just trying to determine if I should purchase a 9 or 10 ft 7wt rod; after my purchase of a 6wt Spey rod. Aaron answered this question when I called Bill's store; after I posted the question. This the result of a used 7wt I found on ebay and had 15 mins to buy it, which after speaking with Aaron I did not buy it... I will swing away until it gets colder...then hopefully will have money in Jan/Feb 2012 to get a 7 or 8 wt single hand. this and I had seen mention water temperatures at the bottom of one of Bill's posts with regard to swinging .... just wanted better info on when to do each ....

I had absolutely no idea this was a heated subject.

I must agree with one of Bill's article posts....I just want to catch steelhead...swing or nymph the end game is a fish on the bank...

[JGB]

It's actually pretty humerous. Especially the ones that take a lecturing/high-horse attitude. This discussion was actually pretty tame compared to other boards. To each his own, wuteva...

...but you have a funny way of posing the question for an answer your seeking?

I'll just leave the "...fish on the bank." alone! LOL! Better duck for cover!

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

(P.S. But you probably better not post any pix of fish on the bank, or on the grass, or on the rocks, or on the sand, or on the bed of your rig, or on your boat seat, or on your kitchen counter, or on your grill, or...)

[DFrink]

It's actually pretty humerous. Especially the ones that take a lecturing/high-horse attitude. This discussion was actually pretty tame compared to other boards. To each his own, wuteva...

...but you have a funny way of posing the question for an answer your seeking?

I'll just leave the "...fish on the bank." alone! LOL! Better duck for cover!

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

(P.S. But you probably better not post any pix of fish on the bank, or on the grass, or on the rocks, or on the sand, or on the bed of your rig, or on your boat seat, or on your kitchen counter, or on your grill, or...)

This is my favorite post in this thread, made me laugh. Fishing is to much fun to get all upset about!

Dan

[jbird]

Dustin- depending on the river, I would question that your description will really cover all the good holding water in a run. If you make one cast and follow it down, you are really fishing one current seam - if the run is 70 feet wide with boulders throughout, there is no way you are covering all the effective water using this technique - if I make a 80 foot quartering downstream cast and let it swing across the current I am showing my fly to all the fish in that particular reach

On smaller rivers where holding lies are pretty easy to determine, it may be possible to make a single cast and effectively cover the good holding water

Rick.
I agree with Dustin in the realm of fishing water you are intimately familiar with. You know the seam/slot/bucket/trench, blindfolded. I fish like he described a lot. But not at the expence of missing good water. I dont think he's saying he uses this "walk, drift" method everywhere. When I nymph a stretch of river, i'll slow down and work the good sections carefully (Tho my feet are almost always moving). between the productive runs, I'll do the walk/drift method if theres only one seam or slot that Ive picked a fish up out of before.

also, nymphing, you may stand in one spot longer than swinging in order to effectively cover the water, but when you move, you may move 30', or more, and again, do the walk/drift during that move. Guys that are efficient, experienced steelhead nymphers cover a lot of water quickly.

The problem you get into is when trout nymphers come into steelheading and dont understand the flow of traffic and zig-zag upstream, downstream, cross stream, etc...

Its a lot like driving your car, if your all alone out there, do whatever you want. If theres other guys on the water, be curtious. Fish at a curtious pace and move with the flow, and for heavens sakes, be mindful of good holding water and dont wade out into it if someones following you thru.

[Dustin Revel]

It's actually pretty humerous. Especially the ones that take a lecturing/high-horse attitude. This discussion was actually pretty tame compared to other boards. To each his own, wuteva...

...but you have a funny way of posing the question for an answer your seeking?

I'll just leave the "...fish on the bank." alone! LOL! Better duck for cover!

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

(P.S. But you probably better not post any pix of fish on the bank, or on the grass, or on the rocks, or on the sand, or on the bed of your rig, or on your boat seat, or on your kitchen counter, or on your grill, or...)

In California you can only retain hatchery steelhead. feel free to kill them and post lots of bloody gory pictures... maybe it will make everyone less sensitive.

[DAVID95670]

Sheeesh on the bank or landed ......... not killed .......

[Dustin Revel]

Dustin- depending on the river, I would question that your description will really cover all the good holding water in a run. If you make one cast and follow it down, you are really fishing one current seam - if the run is 70 feet wide with boulders throughout, there is no way you are covering all the effective water using this technique - if I make a 80 foot quartering downstream cast and let it swing across the current I am showing my fly to all the fish in that particular reach

On smaller rivers where holding lies are pretty easy to determine, it may be possible to make a single cast and effectively cover the good holding water

Im going to have to disagree again. 80 feet quartering downstream is 56 feet across a distance an experienced steelhead fisherman can roll cast an indicator with a single handed rod. if you fish the seams with an indicator you are only fishing one line at a time but you are fishing it in its entirety, whereas a swing fishes segments of the line as your fly swings through. what about the area right behind the rocks? how do you swing that? the far seam and beyond? the fly doesn't sink immediately , obviously you can mend to get your fly down, but that will also pull your fly off the seam a little bit. and if you are using a tip that gets you near the bottom in the bucket how do you fish the inside seam? it seems like you will be snagged long before you get to the slower shallower inside seem that is often the most productive seam?

even if there are 5 seams (at any given cross section of stream) you think could hold fish and you fish each one taking a step a second I would still be able to cover it well and also cover it more quickly than a swing fisherman.

lets say you are fishing a run that has 5 seams (not necesarily5 continuous seams) and it is 100 steps long each seam takes about 2 minutes to indicator fish (and walk back upstream) and each the run takes about 11 minutes to swing (100 steps/ 3steps*20 seconds), but if we consider the fact that we will both need to adjust depth the indicator is much quicker to adjust than changing a sink tip or even add/remove split shot. also i usually try to eliminate one seam or maybe eliminate all but the best part of a seam or two.

the only time I really see swinging as the best option is in completely bland water that has no noticeable holding area... I find this to be very boring water to fish, and the fish don't often like to hang there either.

My method doesn't aim to to cover all the good holding water. I try to cover as much of the best holding water as i can in a day. If there are a couple other people with me a run like you describe is an excellent place to regroup, heat up a can of soup, drink some jameson, and roll up a yoint... you know set up camp.

[DFrink]

My method doesn't aim to to cover all the good holding water. I try to cover as much of the best holding water as i can in a day. If there are a couple other people with me a run like you describe is an excellent place to regroup, heat up a can of soup, drink some jameson, and roll up a yoint... you know set up camp.

I love settin' up camp!

[Larry S]

This entire thread has been like the Frazier-Ali bouts. Great entertainment.
Even educational!
Best of all, no one got obnoxious and needed a point taken away. Good job, all.
Best of Thanksgivings to everyone,
Larry S

[JGB]

So let's pick this up a bit...!

I gotta question: Do bobicatorers drink...excuse me...SIP appletinis, or do appletini sippers bobicate?

:-\"

[JGB]

And from this side of Humboldt...?

Pass the Doritos please, or is it pass the Captain Crunch?

:smoke:

[JGB]

Relax, where is your sense of humor? Topic has been beat to death.

Don't take things too seriously...especially when it comes to Bobicators vs. Swingers. (Wasn't that a Mitchell Bros. production?)

It's all in good fun.

Cheers, JGB

[Rick J]

Dustin - I am not trying to say which method is more effective - I would generally agree that a indie guy will normally catch more fish but I really can't buy your argument that a indie guy moves through a run faster. First I am not constantly changing tips or rarely change tips - swinging is really not about getting the fly down near the bottom - a swing guy is targeting active fish that will move some to the fly so I can swing in front of a rock and on the sides of a rock and am targeting aggressive fish that will move to the fly.

I have been behind indie guys on the NU and they move much slower than I will when swinging. Although I do not use indicators, I certainly have been known to high stick through runs such as the Camp Water on the N Umpqua throwing the ugly bug and there is no way I can move though that water as quickly as I could if I were swing fishing. I am often making 5 or 6 casts or more to cover all the seams from near to far before I step down. I may not step down just 3 or 4 steps but I will step down to the next place I can set up and it is normally much less than 30 feet.

I am not saying one method is better than the other. My original post was just pointing out that swing guys often accuse indie guys of camping on the water and that is not necessarily so, they are just moving more slowly to effectively cover the same water.

[Morgan]

I love settin' up camp!

thats what its all about...twistn em up on the river/lake/stream and "enjoying the scenery".

[jbird]

roll up a yoint... you know set up camp.


I love settin' up camp!


And from this side of Humboldt...?

Pass the Doritos please, or is it pass the Captain Crunch?

:smoke:


thats what its all about...twistn em up on the river/lake/stream and "enjoying the scenery".

Seriously guys??? The topic at hand is controvercial enough without this tangent.

[JGB]

But "controverceil"? Not really, what's the controversy? I repeat... "Whatever works for you, just do your part to be a caretaker...". (or something like that.)

Seems that some are taking this thread too personal, and are entirely too sensitive/defensive?

Sorry for my part in trying to lighten the mood and if I bent anybody's nose out of joint.

...aaaaand for my contribution to this thread(which has the most thread replies and thread views of any thread in the last umpteen-odd days).

btw- BK had lots of good stuff in his 11/19 9:47pm post. Thanx for that post!

I'm done.

XOXOX!!

[Morgan]

Seriously guys??? The topic at hand is controvercial enough without this tangent.

boooo...hoooo. Not all of us are negative nancy's. SOme of us like to enjoy nature a little more while "drifting" or "swinging" through holes.

[Rick J]

David, I am not sure if anyone really responded to your second post and question about angle of cast when swinging - much depends on if summer/fall or winter conditions. For summer/fall, generally fish will be more active and willing to chase a fly so a down and across cast works pretty well and you can even speed the swing up by proper mending. Yo can use floating lines or sink tips or even shooting heads depending on various conditions.

For normal winter fishing you generally want to slow the swing down and get the fly deeper.

One of the best techniques is to cast either straight across or slightly angled upstream then pull back quickly and drop the tip creating slack and pretty much dead drift conditions - normally you will then lead the line and fly with your rod tip - this creates the least drag and allows the fly to sink to its deepest point prior to starting to swing - you are also generally presenting the fly broadside with this technique. A good example would be a run with really heavy water out in the middle and far bank where fish likely are not holding but good inside softer water - your cast would be to just the edge or slightly into the fast water so when you pull back the fly will drop quickly in the softer holding water - you should be watching your line - as you say you can miss grabs with the slack line but you may see the line kick upstream if a fish picks up during the setup - generally the grabs come as you start to get tension on the line and fly and the initial cast/pull back and follow is just setting up for fishing your fly on a deep slow swing.

[mr. 3 wt.]

Regardless in what method one decides to use, some people are just slower than others. I am like Dustin, I walk while I am drifting more times than not. I am constantly moving around. I don't expect a 60+ year old guy to keep up with me and I would probably have a hard time keeping up with my youngster buddy Dustin. Fortunately, our rivers in california are long and there are enough fishing areas to just move on if the run looks to be jammed up with campers. Who cares, some folks don't have it in themselves to move around a lot. In the past I used to think the gear guys were a pain in the butt but times have changed and the fly guys have become way more a pain in the butt. The Trinity is a fine example of this.

Hey Dustin, maybe I will head up your way after the holidays. Be good to see you again. Let you know.

[Sandspanker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfLUJneg8uI&feature=related

I like this one...lol
cant we all just get along

[mr. 3 wt.]

That's funny shit!