Question about casting distance vs line weight

[luckydude]

Hi,

This is perhaps a poorly formed contest, but I have a 5wt 9' sage and a 4wt 8.5' St Croix Legend ultra. Took them out for a little casting contest and found I could get things where I wanted at 46 feet on the 5wt and 40 feet on the 4wt.

Granted there is a 6" difference in rod length so it's not apples to apples.

I'm just wondering if anyone has any idea if that's about right. Is there a table of expected distances vs line weight?

I know that casting ability etc all play into it (and I can get farther, this is just about the limit of where I can place the fly where I want it; and it's in good conditions, I'd be shorter if I had brush or wind).

[Larry S]

Lucky:
You don't mention the lines used. Also, remember that most of the fish you want to
cast to are within that 45' or so. Concentrate on them and stealth casts. Learn the single and double haul. If you are in this fly fishing gig for the long haul(pun intended),
seriously consider some casting instruction. Videos (Jeff Putnam, etc) can help;
but, a one on one session would be life-changing. Golfers go thru the same
thing.
Good luck.
Best,
Larry S

[BillB]

I think Larry is right on. Most of the fish (trout and bass especially) are caught at that range. The are many times I will fish a line 35'-45' (OBS 7) and make only a few strips or chugs, pick the line up and toss it again. The beauty of fishing a short line is no need to false cast. Mostly only short double haul and often not even that. A guy can cover a bunch of water!

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

If you cast the same brand and model rod and the same floating weight forward fly line on a 9' rod in #4, 5, 6 and 7 line size I think most could cast slightly further as the line sizes got larger, to a point.

We can always do this at the shop some day?

[luckydude]

Both lines where weight forward.

[Terry Imai]

I remember your earlier posts and I was probably one of the posters that stressed casting distance was the determining factor on your fly fishing ability and enjoyment at a fishing destination. In many instances, distance is used to equate casting ability but I need to stress that scenario is not 100% correct. Distance is often used as a "quick and dirty" on how well someone can cast but the following factors are very important in determining your own casting ability. Over exertion in an attempt to pick up an extra 20' in their casts but with a terrible loop control, inaccurate placement of the bug and line on the water; and when varying wind and weather conditions arise negatively affects your distance and accuracy exponentially.

Rarely does someone reach a modicum of success in golf, shooting or fly casting/fishing by being self-taught on those skills. To save money, some people try to get their friends who have been doing these activities but few amateurs are good instructors and can establish a solid foundation along with bringing you to achieve your goals. Since I'm paying my hard earned money, I want to get qualified instruction. My shooting instructor is from England and one of his favorite lines is "miss with style" rather than hit the target without knowing how you did it. Find a good instructor in your area and they will charge you around $60/hour. Most instructor prefer that the ratio of one hour of instruction to 8-10 hours of practice.

A good example was when I used to play some serious golf and would put up some decent scores for a weekend warrior. One day, I got paired up with some older gents (old for me at that time) and two of three had nice swings and played a good game. The third guy basically had the worst golf swing I've ever seen (Charles Barkley included) and basically had difficulty to replicate his shots due to the always varying golf swing. Because I never give lessons on the course and especially with strangers but I wanted to know if he has played long (due to his golf swing). He told me that he has been "playing" for 25-30 years but tried to "self-teach" himself the first four-five years of taking up golf. After being so frustrated during those initial years, he finally turned to a golf pro to straighten him out but the hired pro informed him that so many things were permanently engrained and there was not enough time in the day to break down these specific bad habits. He was told to just go out and enjoy the "social" aspects of the game because he was never going to end up with a strong and solid swing.

I guarantee you that if you take the time to find a good instructor to properly teach you how to cast; you will enjoy the sport immensely.

[luckydude]

I may have not communicated properly. What I was trying to say was 46 feet of line out was the limit of what I could cast and get an accurate placement and a good presentation with good loop control (i.e., a nice small loop that will drive into the wind).

I wouldn't claim my technique is fantastic but I'm double hauling and when I'm out casting next to random folks I tend cast at least as far. Maybe I need to go cast with one of you guys :)

I've always thought that was reasonable for a non-pro (I'm no guide, I don't do this every day). Are you suggesting that casting lessons will improve that significantly? That would be cool if true.

[Terry Imai]

I noticed your location is not close to Bill’s shop but there should be some decent shops near you that you can find a CERTIFIED casting instructor. It would be beneficial for you to find a certified instructor because their specialized training and they have to learn how to work specific techniques to fit their students. A mediocre instructor may know only a few ways of casting (generally fitting only for them) but a good instructor can take a look at you and come up with a solution with good results.

I would suggest that you take at least two lessons because we generally all have bad casting habits that a good instructor can identify and hopefully eliminate. Several hours of practice provides the needed muscle memory and then a fellow-up lesson to check on your progress.

Keep a log book of distance and accuracy to monitor your progress. I thought I was a "good enough" caster when I visited the Bighorn River for the first time. You can run into a situation where you have a pod of ten-fifteen 20+" fish slurping #20 Trico spinners 30-35' right next to the bank and you're positioned directly downstream of them. My guide turns to me (find out later he's a big Dennis Hopper fan from the Speed") and says, "well hotshot, pop quiz... how do you place your #20 Trico spinner 2-3 feet above your designated fish within a 4" wide gap without blowing up the pod??" I wish I could tell the story that I went through that pod starting at the bottom fish and picking each one until I caught every fish in them. But the realty was I was so nervous and my casting was not precise enough that the fourth cast basically went into the pod as a pile driver and it blew the pod up. If you've never seen 20" fish scrambling in every direction just to get out of Dodge, it's a sight to see.

I came to the conclusion that my casting was not up to par and I needed to do some work on it. After a lot of work, my casting improved to the point where I could go to the Bighorn River and work my way through a pod of large fish slurping dry flies.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

There has been mention of double-hauls in this thread.

My questions:

1---Is there a need for a double-haul when casting a 4 or 5 wt to 45'? I use a single-haul when casting 4-5 wts to 35'; seldom, if ever, double-haul.

2---Am I missing something in not doing the double-haul at the aforementioned distances?

Frank R. Pisciotta

[Ralph]

There has been mention of double-hauls in this thread.

My questions:
Is there a need for a double-haul when casting a 4 or 5 wt to 45'?
Frank R. Pisciotta

Casting into stiff wind or across wind, casting tight under overhanging vegetation, over-powering a cast to get a bounce and put some slack in the leader, drying a soggy fly, moving a sticky line, turning over a big bug . . . but no, not normally under ideal conditions.

[Terry Imai]

Unless I really need to dry out my bug, I might do an extra false cast but since fish live in water and not in the air; the more time your line and fly spend in the hair can only cause more presentation problems. If you do a water haul to initially load your rod and then do a slight direction change and nice placement on the water with your double haul. Just because you’re throwing a four weight rod doesn’t mean you cannot incorporate a double haul in your casting. Bottom line of what will get your fly in the proper spot with the least amount of effort. Always remember, “form follows function”. All of these things can be done with incorporating your water haul and then a nice double haul for your fly presentation. You just need to perfect your technique when tossing split shot and an indicator but the more times you false case with that hardware; the greater chance of a huge cluster tangle especially towards the end of a long day on the water. It seems the odds of getting that huge tangle is directly correlated to when the monster hatch is starting and you have a bird's nest mess right in front of you...

[Darian]

Gotta Say I'm with Frank on this. I find it difficult to imagine using a double haul; let alone a water haul on a 4 or 5 weight rod. :confused: Acknowledged, what Ralph suggests as exceptions are accurate. 8)

IMO, using a water haul is more often associated with using a shooting head and a heavily weighted, large fly (bug) like up at Pyramid Lake. Whenever I'm asked this, I always make the example that out to about 30' of line beyond the tip-top, a caster should be able to make a false cast and deliver the fly on a spot by using the single, casting hand. Taking that a bit further, if a caster strips off about 7' - 10' and holds it in the same hand in loose coils, it may be released on the forward stroke to gain distance; making a 40' cast without using a second hand possible. 8)

As a general rule, I don't use a double haul on anything less than a 6 weight rod. :nod:

[Larry S]

I'm gonna "haul" my sorry butt out of this discussion. Guess I should have read
the original post better. I will stand by two of my points tho'.
Lots of fish within that 40 - 50 range.
Time spent with a qualified casting instructor will pay big dividends.
Best,
Larry S

[bonneville54]

Time spent with a qualified casting instructor will pay big dividends.


Very big dividends!

A few years ago, before a trip to the Yucatan, I spent just a couple of hours with Jeff Putnam.

It worked wonders. Jeff gave me some pretty simple exercises to improve my timing and awareness. While this may sound goofy - with good instruction, I skyrocketed from lousy to mediocre in just a weeks time.

[crashq]

The fly shops that were really close to him hve all closed. Ernie's (in Soquel/Santa Cruz) closed when Ernie retired. The San Jose Fly Shop and the Midge Fly shop closed, down. The nearest shop is th California Fly shop in Burlingame about 50 miles away.

There are, however, two excellent fly fishing clubs in the area; The San Jose Flycasters (http://www.flycasters.org/), which meets off south Saratoga Ave in San Jose, and the Santa Cruz Flyfisherman (http://www.santacruzflyfishermen.org/). They both have certified instructors in their ranks who give individual lessons, and the San Jose club has annual group classes for beginners and intermediates.

The SJ club installed a couple casting ponds at the Campbell percolations ponds, which are conveniently located off Highway 17 near Camden Ave.They give you a stable casting areawiith marked distances and target rings so you can get an accurate idea of your skills and improvement.

[dpentoney]

[QUOTE=Terry Imai;104364] .....fish live in water and not in the air; the more time your line and fly spend in the air can only cause more presentation problems. QUOTE]

This might be the most helpful line in this thread. Lots of flyfisherman spend way too much time casting, which equates to less time fishing. The less false casting you do, over an hour, a day, or a lifetime, means the more time your fly is in the water where a fish can take it....Growing up using shooting heads on the big waters of the lower Eel and Klamath Rivers I would see some quys routinely would make 5 or 6 false casts. Others routinely would make one or two. Over the course of a day this can make a big difference.

And after growing up using shooting heads, I must say I double haul the hell out of about anything I cast. I'm double hauling using dry flies on my 3 wt.......

[Darian]

"I must say I double haul the hell out of about anything I cast. I'm double hauling using dry flies on my 3 wt......."

No disrespect meant here, but I just can't envision the need for that much effort on a 3 weight. Like you, I fished the Eel, Smith and a lot of other estuaries during the 60's, 70' and 80's; Pyramid since then and have a reasonable understanding of the when, where for double hauling and water loading. Unless I felt that every fish was located on the other side of the river (as it sometimes is on those rivers mentioned) or lake, that much effort doesn't seem warranted. Oh well, to each his/her own.... 8-)

[Terry Imai]

I often get asked by a few friends to take them fishing on my drift boat. Since I prefer to row with a minimum of effort, I attempt to put the person in the bow the opportunity to present their bug in the right spot. It's really tough when you're moving into a spot and they cannot make a water haul, change directions and shoot the line in the designated spot. Usually what happens is that attempt to pick up the line with little force, false cast five-six times and by time they're ready to hit that spot, the boat is already 30-40 downstream. Ask any guide what would make their day with a client is having someone at the bow of boat who can pick up their line and make an accurate 30-50' cast on either side of the boat with basically no false casting. They know when a false cast is blown; they're usually the one who gets nailed with the hook or have to clean up the birds nest. You'll be amazed when you can perform like that makes your guide work just that much harder to get you into fish...

[Darian]

Terry,.... Not sure what your post has to do with double hauling dry flies on a 3 weight is but I get the gist about guides appreciating a good caster. If you find yourself experiencing the problems you describe while rowing your friends, perhaps you should limit who you invite to fish with you to those who can cast.... Just a thought. :neutral:

[Terry Imai]

Luckydude started this BB thread asking feedback that cast “XX feet” was desirable casting distance. A few of us had chimed in being able to utilize the other significant factors other than solely distance. Watching another fishermen throw a nice line with minimum amount of effort along with sticking their share of fish is a major reason why I love to fish. Fly fishing should be effortless however; many fishermen seen at places like the Yuba River froth up the water from too many casts and resulting into putting all potential dry fly eating fish down because there was too much casting and not enough observing.
If someone doesn't want to or feel the need to learn to perfect any skill or technique, it's their option because we’re not in the former Soviet Union. However, when someone can utilize the entire “arrows” in their quiver often results in improving their fishing day. Bottom line when another person on this BB (especially new to the sport) is being told that some action “just isn’t needed” because I don’t do it is often doing that person a big disservice. Most of us don’t have the front yard area to properly perform double-haul drills with your 6# but the 3# works great especially when you’re trying to shoot your line underneath some front bush “mangroves” along with flipping your leader into a perfect presentation.
This discussion thread is close to “angels dancing on the head of a pin” but my point throughout this entire thread is about learning various techniques often results into utilizing them when the need arises to make a good day into a really great day.

My Labor Day $.02….

[Darian]

Terry,.... the original text/question is quoted in part as" "....but I have a 5wt 9' sage and a 4wt 8.5' St Croix Legend ultra. Took them out for a little casting contest and found I could get things where I wanted at 46 feet on the 5wt and 40 feet on the 4wt.

Granted there is a 6" difference in rod length so it's not apples to apples.

I'm just wondering if anyone has any idea if that's about right. Is there a table of expected distances vs line weight?"

I don't see where luckydude received an answer to his question in any of the responses in this thread.

In an attempt to provide some info on the subject, I know of no table that sets out "....expected distances vs line weight." Altho one may exist somewhere. There're probably too many variables to be able to compile that type of information. If anyone on this BB has that type of info, please post the source or a link to that source. I'd like to find that out myself.

Finally, Terry, I do feel that Frank was absolutely correct in his post. Given the situation described and the question asked, getting into all of this discussion about double and water hauling was an example of over thinking the answer to the question. At any rate, I doubt that you and I are going to agree on this. So, I'm out of here.... 8-)

[Terry Imai]

I'm also done with this thread... Hey Luckydude, I hope you received some answers with your question...

take it easy Darian...

[luckydude]

Terry,.... the original text/question is quoted in part as" "....but I have a 5wt 9' sage and a 4wt 8.5' St Croix Legend ultra. Took them out for a little casting contest and found I could get things where I wanted at 46 feet on the 5wt and 40 feet on the 4wt.

Granted there is a 6" difference in rod length so it's not apples to apples.

I'm just wondering if anyone has any idea if that's about right. Is there a table of expected distances vs line weight?"

I don't see where luckydude received an answer to his question in any of the responses in this thread.


I was just thinking this myself, this thread got hijacked a bit. It's been entertaining and if there was a local instructor that people knew was good I might go off and see what I could learn. But it wasn't a question about whether my casting was good or bad (I'm not unhappy with my ability to cast, it's working for me).

Let me try and restate it a little more clearly: given the same caster, the same rod technology, the same line technology, the same conditions, what are the expected differences in distance for 3wt, 4wt, 5wt, 6wt lines?

I'm not asking about technique, or actual distance, just how much farther should you expect to get by stepping up one line weight? Holding all other factors unchanged.

I perhaps muddied the waters w/ two different rods, should have kept that out of it.

Once I know the answer above, I'd be interested in the same question only with rod length changing (assuming a good quality rod).

[Terry Imai]

Hey Luckydude,

Great idea with picking up an instructor and the two of you can work on your casting. To answer your most recent question about the expected casting distance differences between a #3-#6 weight; my wild ass guess (WAG) where your maximum casting accurately distance between each rod weight are in the 10-15' range. My own observation that most manufacturers design a particular model of fly rod designed for a slotted weight and then attempt to make the other weights along that entire catalog spectrum. However, it’s a rare occurrence when the entire rod model lines are all winners and actually fit my distance difference WAG.

Okay question answered…. However:

When purchasing a rod, you should determine how, where and why this rod will be used rather than just say, “I want to buy a 9’ five weight” just because you have an open slot in your rod rack. For example, if you want to purchase a three and four weight models, I would attempt to find a rod that I am accurately cast and can present the fly with a minor water disturbance if I want to fish “spring creek” conditions with light tippets. I realize that I cannot cast beyond a certain point with that rod but I really don’t care because I doubt I could stick a trout with 60+’ of fly line on the water along with a fish taking my bug due to the amount of drag due to the amount of fly line on the water. I find a softer tip allows me to fish with very light tippets and allows me to bring the fish quickly to the net.

However, if I’m on a stillwater where distance does count because it allows you to cover a significantly larger area; wind is a constant factor; throwing streamers or large indicators; and somewhat murky water that allows me to fight probably big fish with 3-5x tippets means I’m going to pull out my “broomstick” six weight. Comparing trout rods in the #6 range are made for distance casting and tossing lead and/or large indicators but these “broom stick” actions have problems fighting large wild fish on very light tippets.

Someone will probably chime in topic that they do just fine using their broomstick with 7x tippets but I’ve seen too many times where they basically fight the fish to death because the sticky action doesn’t allow them to feel just the breaking point of their tippet.

My Tuesday $.02.....