Stimulator Question

[Bruce Berman]

I'm not much of a dry fly guy, limited experience and I'm more of a steelheader, but I had a frustrating time on a small lake and stream in southern Colorado recently that some here might be able to help with.

I was using commercial #12 stimulators and dropping nymphs in the lake, and using just the stimulator in the creek. I missed more than 50% of my takes. I'm reasonably certain that I was not seeing refusals and also that it wasn't fish grabbing the dropper. I tried waiting for "God save the queen" before setting, "God save the queen and all of her grandchildren" and setting immediately.

I lost ALL the fish in the creek (8 in the hour I had). These were not missed fish where I felt them on the line. It was set and then nothing.

I'm wondering if the small gap on the stimulator hooks were to blame or if I'm just plain lousy at dry fly fishing.

[SHigSpeed]

I'm not much of a dry fly guy, limited experience and I'm more of a steelheader, but I had a frustrating time on a small lake and stream in southern Colorado recently that some here might be able to help with.

I was using commercial #12 stimulators and dropping nymphs in the lake, and using just the stimulator in the creek. I missed more than 50% of my takes. I'm reasonably certain that I was not seeing refusals and also that it wasn't fish grabbing the dropper. I tried waiting for "God save the queen" before setting, "God save the queen and all of her grandchildren" and setting immediately.

I lost ALL the fish in the creek (8 in the hour I had). These were not missed fish where I felt them on the line. It was set and then nothing.

I'm wondering if the small gap on the stimulator hooks were to blame or if I'm just plain lousy at dry fly fishing.

I think perhaps your problem was that you were "setting"? Just a simple lift of the rod and a smooth taking of slack is all it takes much of the time to embed a small wire hook like those.

I'm more guilty than the next guy for setting like a Yeti sometimes. I have to consciously strip to take up slack and lift to "set" otherwise I swing for the bleachers! :D

Maybe?

_SHig

[Terry Imai]

I'm not sure if you're saying that you felt the fish and then lost them but here's my hack at it trying to solve it over the internet...

How sharp was your hook?? Before I tie a fly to my tippet, I grab the fly at the eye with my right thumb and forefinger and drag the point across the nail of my left hand thumb. If the point doesn't stick immediately in, I hit the point with a hook stone. Just because your fly was tied commercially doesn't mean that first rate materials were used in its construction.

Flies purchased from the big box stores or cheap over the mail order or internet have cut their prices by using inferior materials like hooks and hackle. If you have been following hackle prices recently, it is very difficult to sell a fly at the big box price without cutting corners. I was fishing last fall at Davis Lake and met a newbie whose flies were either falling apart after only a couple of fish or the hooks were straightening out. The fish he was bringing in would not be bent with quality hooks.

A properly tied dry fly should have hackle that is about 1 1/4-1 1/2 times the gape of the hook (look up gape if you don't know how to measure it). Often with commercially tied flies, especially now; hackle that should be used for larger flies are ending up on smaller flies and the tier trims it down to fool you into believing they used the proper #12 hackle for a Stimulator. If this is the case, your hackle can almost be "weedless" so when the fish comes up to take your fly because that hackle is so thick and this tough hackle "bounces" off the fish's mouth.

Note: Since a Stimulator is built to float like a battleship, you can actually have too many things to keep that fly standing on the water (think of a horizontal needle floating on a glass of water) like too much hackle and that big Elk hair wing. When I get splashes around my fly, it could be a last second refusal. I often trim the bottom hackle so my fly sits right in the film. It's more realistic and easier for the fish to eat.

If you're a right handed caster, do you place the fly line between your right hand forefinger and middle finger? I often see guys make a cast and have a bunch of slack line from their first guide to the reel. If that's your current technique, have someone teach you how to make your cast; tuck your line under your forefinger; and perfect your "slip" strike.

Hopefully this might help...

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

From my experience stream fishing for trout, if your fly is too big the fish will come up and slap at it, but won't really eat it.

Usually if you go to a size smaller fly with possible a lighter tippet or even a different color fly, you might get them to "eat it".

__________________________________________________ _____________________

For good dry fly fishing on a lake the water will normally have to be fairly smooth.

For this you need to seriously "match the hatch".Your flies have to be very close to the size of the natural and the color close too.

You also need to use a long leader with a long fine tippet.



In the evening on a big hatch of 'traveling sedge/motorboat caddis' you might use a big Stimulator.

.

[Ralph]

For most situations the stimi is overdressed. I have seen fish trying to grab flies with stiff tails and the fly gets pushed rather than eaten. If you are getting short strikes on a traditional stimi, switch to a foam hopper (no tail or hackle) and see if that works. Unless I'm fishing white water or trying to float a big dropper I routinely trim away much of the tail fiber and cut off the belly side of the palmered hackle so the fly floats lower in the film. A fly in the film not only seems to be more attractive to trout but tends to hook up better than a fly than sits and skates on top of the film.
As you suggested, I think the hook gap is too small on a trad stimi and tie mine on an oversized hook.

[Troutstalker55B]

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i424/moto55b/october_caddis.jpg

This is my Oct. Caddis pattern, a modified stimulator. I use the Mustad "stinger" hook in a size 6 for this fly and as you can see the gap is very big. I also use the #10, and #12 stinger hook for other stimi's as well. The hook is designed for bass poppers and the like. This fly sits flush in the film, and the hook itself acts like a keel on a boat keeping this big bug upright even through white water. Give this hook a try, you just might be as pleased with the results as I am.

Jon.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

Bruce---Both Terri & Ralph provide valid advice about possible missed takes and also talk about small gaps (distance between hook point & shank) and provide useful tactical solutions.

Another solution is "opening the gap":idea:; tweaking the point away to the side of the shank. I do this when I start using tiny flies; 18 or smaller....mostly midges.

Frank R. Pisciotta

[Bruce Berman]

Thanks, guys. I've made a hard copy of this one for my files. Lots of good info here!

[crashq]

It very well could have been the hooks that were used. I have seen stimulators that were tied on hooks that resembled Tiemco 200R (nymph) hooks in shape. I have had personal experience with those hooks, and depending on what fly you tie with them, they have a problem sticking fish. This is because the gap is quite small compared to the size of the shank (3x if my memory serves me). It is smaller than most other 3x hooks.The tendency is to overhackle or overdress the flies because you tie largely based n the shaft length. This intereferes with an already small gap.

I remember floating a California still water where leeches worked well. I had a box full of leeches tied on the 200Rs, so I though that I was set. I kicked my tube over to a likely weed bed and gave them a try. They worked great, at least for strikes. I got hit nearly every cast, but hooked none. Thinking that it was short striking fish, I cut off the short tail. I landed one fish , but missed numerous strikes. I trimmed the leech and caught one more (with many more misses). Finally, I switched to a Prince nymph on a standard Mustad 3906B nymph hook. I landed three straight fish. After a few more fish and 2-3 missed fish, I switched to a Bird's nest on the same 3906B hook and landed 6 straight fish. I stopped using the 200Rs, except for very sparse nymphs in the larger sizes. I also don't tie all of the way down the hook; leaving plenty of free space in front of the gap. I have never repeated this performance.

The stimulators that I saw had hackle in front of the small gap. It looked like a recipe for what I experienced.Try trimming off the hackle on the bottom of the fly. It will still give the flies a natural look from underneath (les splayed out to the sides), but will clear the hook gap for better access.

[Dan LeCount]

Like what others said, unless youre using it in very fast water or as an indicator, just trim the belly hackle. As a tyer, the 200R is a pretty hook, but I usually substitute it when i can. In small sizes in can bend out and it also has an issue with a long shank with a small gap. Perfect to pry the fly out when they fish is torquing and spinning during the fight. I still do some neutral buoyancy damsel nymphs with them since theyre a very light hook for their shank length, but thats about it.

[bigfly]

Since we are talking stimies, right now, I recommend tying a royal stimy (white wing), and using it as a barge for your caddis emerger dropper.
That way at 8PM you can see to fish.
Just a thought....

[Terry Imai]

IMO, the TMC 200 is a fine hook for certain applications like thinly dressed bugs especially in stillwater where you want it to maintain a specific depth in the water column. Depending upon the version of hook, it seems to be 2.5 long hook but if I going after decent sized fish with heavily dressed bugs, there's nothing wrong with using a TMC 5262 or 5263. Both 5262 or 5263 do not present themselves properly in a damsel pattern with a slight dubbing and marabou while a 5262 & 5263 can be used for your Stimulator patterns. Manzanita Lake used to have a nice "motorboat" caddis hatch right at sunset where you would be lined up with the other fishermen on the North side by the grassey area and cast out as far as you can. After you let the bug settle down, you start stripping in short bursts with a rod tip twitch. The big rainbows and browns would blow up the bug like a largemouth and you would have to hold on to bring them in. Using a 2x-3x tippet with a 5262 or 5263 Stimulator because I tried a few times tying a TMC 200 before going with a different hook model.

If you don't tie your own flies now, this is a perfect example of why you should take up tying to address these various issues with store bought bugs especially from your non-speciality fly shops...

[Jgoding]

Yep, the 200r has a reputation of not sticking or not holding fish very well, especially the larger sizes. Even the 101 has a short hook point imo, but the gape is fine and it's a straight eye and it seems to hold alright but it's getting hard to find hooks I really like these days.

[Terry Imai]

One day I go into Bill's shop when he mentions that he just started carrying a new line of hooks called Tiemco but Mustad had the controlling hook market share. Since Bill always being so low keyed on having zero sales pressure and not informing me that I was a dummy not to go with this new company, I buy three Mustad boxes of 100 hooks (only packaging available at that time). I tie a few more flies but return later to the shop for a "few" more tying supplies where I decide to try just one box of TMC 100 #14. I tie up a few bugs on these new hooks and totally find that the jump in overall performance that I immediately switch my entire hook inventory to TMC. BTW, I still have the almost full boxes of those Mustad hooks.

The great thing about competition is these manufacturers have to improve their product or they go bankrupt. The selection of companies and their own particular models can be overwhelming but it's nice that you can buy a small box (25 hooks) to try them out for different situations.

I guess that's why I always encourage fly fishermen to take up tying their own bugs because it provides them an understanding of what the bug is supposed to do and what are the visual keys that induces a take. Sometimes you're better off subtracting a specific piece of material than adding.

Damn fish can drive you bonkers but that's why we come back for the punishment....