Headed to Mammoth Lakes, suggestions?

[luckydude]

Hi folks,

my 12 year old son (Indian name: He who catches trees with flies) and I are headed through Yosemite to Mammoth area and are looking for good places to fly fish. We know about upper Owens (we'll be going there, he caught a couple there), I'll hit Hot Creek (little too windy for him I suspect), any other places we should check out?

It's going to be dry fly only, I suck at nymphs and he doesn't even know what a nymph is. We're not at the top of the fly fishing talent school :)

Would a guide help with a young kid or is that just frustrating for the guide?

Thanks in advance!

--lm

[Sammy]

I've never fished hot creek, but I from what I hear, that can be killer for dry fly action in the late evenings. Stay on the river til after it's too hard to tie a new fly on.

[caltagm]

Check with Dave Neal at www.reelmammothadventures.com . Dave's outstanding would have no problem with your son. He'll probably be casting better than you by the end of the day!

Plus he'll be able to tune up your nymphing skills if that's a consideration.

Have a great time!

[Darrin.Deel]

I second hiring a guide. Crowley Lake could be a blast for your son.

Dave Neal: 760-924-0438
Brad McFall: 209-484-1114

I'm sure Brad and Dave would love to have you and your son. Have a great trip.

[luckydude]

I talked to reelmammothadventures.com guy, Dave, right?

Thanks for the pointers, they are all booked up, but he was great, we had a good chat and I will definitely be looking for a trip with him.

He's off trying to find us a different guide. Either way, I think we're going to have a great time.

#1 son was out in the pasture casting with the new 7.5' imperial and the Lamson LP 1. He's slowly getting it.

We're both psyched, I think we're going to have a great trip. Not gonna be like your great trips, I've seen those 10 pound fish, we get 12" trout that are what, maybe a half pound, but whatever, it's dry fly fishing, which is fun.

Really a blast for me as a dad listening to Travis run out the door going "I'm going out to practice my fly fishing!" I can't imagine a better thing to pass on to my kids then landing a dry in a pool gently and watching a trout rise to it.

I'll do a trip report when we get back, we'll have pictures.

Thanks for all your help.

[Chris Evison]

Hot Creek isn't that windy in the mornings. I was there the first few days of August. Trico hatch in morning. Caddis and pmds mid morning. I was there with 13yr old nephew and sister. There newbies and did great.

Wind usually picks up mid-day, but fishing remains good.

You may want to check out the Dana Fork of the Toulumne River. Tioga road runs along it after you climb out of T Meadows. If it has settled to normal flows it can be good dryfly. Caddis and other attractor patterns work. Try dry and dropper rigs with small beadhead nymphs (this combo also works well at Hot Creek).

Any guide worth his salt will do well with kids. I have talked with Dave Neal and he seems a quality guy. If he finds you a guide take him up on it! You will be amazed at what you learn.

I guide for Reno fly Shop/Truckee River Outfitters. If you have any ?'s about E Walker, Truckee or Little Truckee get in touch.

[ganderlander2]

Check lee vining creek, I havnt been there for years but was a great little creek. Its a meadow creek that should be loaded with hoppers and ants, might also try were rock creek and the owens comes together, but be a little tight for false casts though. If you want numbers check out virgina creek, small brookies. Good luck, jason

[Terry Imai]

If you have some time to schedule a casting lessong for your son and you before you leave for the Mammouth Lake area, it will be money well spent. Jeff Putnum would be my #1 choice but if you cannot schedule him, the other guys in the shop that teach casting will be fine. One of the most fustrating things for a guide is when they put a client on the fish and the client can't cast. Basically being able to cast for a guide is when someone can pick their line off the water and hit a 2-3' spot at 30-35' with only one or two false casts. If you can get the proper casting technique down along with some good practice time prior to your trip, then the guide can teach you the finer points of improving your fishing technique.

I have been fishing a lot of places where the client has working fish in front of him but cannot make a proper presentation. Divine intervention will not appear when you get to your destination.

IMO, getting your casting down prior to your trip will make it significantly more enjoyable.

[luckydude]

I talked to reelmammothadventures.com guy, Dave, right?


Reporting back after my guide trip with the guy Dave suggested.

Can't say I'm happy. He talked up Bridgeport lake, ~20 trout days with "every 5th fish a big brown, some as big as 24 inches." I'm thinking "lake, well, not my thing but if that's what it takes to get my kid into some big fish and a lot of them, I'm in."

My kid, who did his part for the most part, a little slow on setting the hook but he's new, hooked one fish, did not land it. To the guide's credit my kid now has a pretty nice roll cast.

I landed 2 fish, 14-16".

I was pretty frustrated, my kid was pretty frustrated, we do better when I just take us to pocket water and fish it. Way way way more fish. Are they 24" browns? No, but there was no 24" anything to be seen with the guide, not even close.

I was just going to let it all go and not vent except at the end of the day the guide sends me down the road with a pile of small (#22 and #24) flys he picked out, to Rock Creek. I did my part, tried every pattern he gave me, the fish are jumping all over the place but not on my hook. At that point I got pissed.

The guide, who will remain nameless because he's a young, nice guy, I liked him, needs more experience. He shouldn't be charging full rates while he learns on my dime. At least that's my opinion. I dunno about you but I think $150/fish is a little pricey.

If Dave is reading this, maybe you can comment in private mail. I dunno what to expect with guides, this is the only time I've ever hired one and I'm really disappointed. It was an expensive, wasted, disappointing day. Maybe I just caught a bad day but that was a bummer, I would have had more fun on my own.

[Terry Imai]

I don't want to comment with your interactions with the guide since I wasn't there, however, when you mentioned that your son was doing a roll cast from the boat, it does set off my spidey sense for me. If a guide determines their client cannot perform an overhead cast (with one or two false casts), they'll just tell them to do a roll cast downwind and wiggle some of their line out. Crowley Lake fish have been pounded since its opener and anything you can do in your presentation to make your bug look real versus fake will get you into more fish especially the bigger ones. The bottom line for most stillwater is being able to cast a minimum 40-50’ will allow you to catch more fish. If you’re roll casting from your boat, you’re not covering much acreage which is the determining factor in how many fish you will stick.

I'm an avid fly fisherman and bird hunter and the common similarity that I see between fishing and hunting guides is the ability of their clients has a direct correlation to the overall success. Granted, we enjoy this sport for the overall enjoyment and solitude and the opportunity to connect with your son; however, if the client cannot hit the target or cast adequately makes a long day for everyone.

I imagine your guide sensed your frustration and sent you to the stream in hopes of catching some fish where the distance of your casts are not as important as your accuracy and presentation. As much as it seems unfortunate what occurred on your trip, you can make it a learning experience and determine in what areas that you can improve in your fly fishing techniques. I have been fly fishing for forty years and I try to set various goals each year that will help me become a better fisherman.

No decent fly fisherman got good overnight…

[SHigSpeed]

I'm guessing Luckydude can fling a line passably. If he only got into two fish with the premise of lotta lunkers, I can understand why he may feel a bit let down.

Now I understand that his son can't cast so well, but in a lake with a boat, there are certainly ways around this. I can imagine at least trying a sinking line and "trolling" or wind drifting deep midges etc.

Maybe offer to cast the line for the boy and let him work it back? I mean I can't imagine that he's (the guide) rowing the whole time or calling out clock and distances. It's not like he's maintaining position in a river. I guess if LD insisted that his son be at the controls to maximize casting practice and learning, but if catching fish was his priority, I feel that perhaps there were things a more seasoned guide might have tried.

My $0.02.

_SHig

[luckydude]

I don't want to comment with your interactions with the guide since I wasn't there, however, when you mentioned that your son was doing a roll cast from the boat, it does set off my spidey sense for me.

Nah, he was fine on this point. He had us set up with a bobber, a bait fish pattern, a shrimp, and a nymph. So overhead casting was not that easy but roll casting worked. In fact, that was the one positive take away, we both got better (well, Travis did, I dunno about me).

[luckydude]

I'm guessing Luckydude can fling a line passably.


I'm not great but in a crowd of average people, I'm better. Not so much with a crowd of skilled people like you guys. I'll keep up, won't lead. My weakness is I like light lines, if you think 4wt is light. In a crowd of average people casting 5wt I can cast 4wt farther. Whatever, I'm not great but passable.

As a last comment on all of this guide unhappiness I think that the whole thing is a case of mismanaged expectations. Before the day it was

"20 fish days, every 5th fish is a big brown, we caught a 24 inch yesterday".

After I complained, Dave said something like

"The only thing a guide can do is teach you something"

I am a total newbie at the guide thing, I never had enough money to afford a guide. So I have no idea what to expect.

What I expected was that they knew the local waters, could take us places where we would get fish, rather than the hit or miss that is normal when you go to a new place. What I thought I was doing was paying someone to show me the places to go to catch a lot of fish. And in particular, show me places I could take my son, who's new to this, where he would catch a lot of fish.

The big bummer for me was that the guide talked it up and then I talked it up to my son. It was a short trip, 3 days of fishing, and the guided part was supposed to be where we caught big fish all day, that's what I was told and that's what I told my son.

Didn't work out that way, hence my post here, which was a bit over the top. Blame it on my disappointment at having sold this to my son and then I didn't deliver. I don't get that much 1 on 1 time with him and I was hoping this was going to be the epic fishing trip and instead it was a wasted day where we could have been on our own and had fun. I'm extremely unhappy with the guide for taking that day away from me, I just don't have that many days available. Hence the over the top rant.

From all reports, Dave is a stand up guy, a great guide, and his people are the same. I think the lesson for me and him is manage the expectations. Don't set expectations of 20 fish and not deliver.

[Dave Neal]

Since I’m the guide who referred Larry to the another local guide I feel responsible in some way to add my .02.

This can be a delicate subject and my better sense tells me just to keep quite and let it fade away… maybe there no winners in this situation? However, I’m not one to hold my thoughts to myself and maybe people can learn from this moving forward?

So here goes:

This is a classic example of expectations not being met. Maybe those expectations were largely set up by the guide, maybe those expectations were created by both parties?

Many degrees of “success” in fly fishing are un-quantifiable – with numbers, sizes, quality, one technique over another…

The fact that you seemed to be more “dry fly centric” and content to target smaller fish on dry flies but maybe talked into fishing Bridgeport Reservoir and lake fishing - definitely added salt to your wounds.

If you or your son had hooked, fought, and landed that 24” brown trout would your opinion of the day be different?

Lake fishing is notorious for boom and bust – one day it’s epic the next day can be tough. Some anglers are willing to roll the dice for those big strong fish others are not. A stream is a confined environment. Walk enough water and you will find a few fish at some point, probably.

But hindsight is always 20/20 and there is a reason this sport is called Fishing not Catching, cliché as it is…

The bottom line is the day you fished w/ the guide, the fish didn’t respond. Maybe there were other techniques (bait?) maybe the fish were off someplace else, maybe they just were not in the mood? Maybe the window of opportunity to hook them was not capitalized??

I’m pretty disappointed to hear that you were so let down by your first “guide experience”. I think I speak for guides everywhere – we cringe when we hear these stories. But every guide out there (and general anglers also) have had days where they got their A$$ handed to them. Fish have brains and those brains are not operated by batteries.

When I am booked up, I really want folks to experience the BEST our local region has to offer and try my best to offer advice, refer a quality guide or shop, etc. I care deeply. Otherwise, I wouldn’t take the vow of poverty working as a fishing guide!

Most guides work hard to ensure our clients have a good time, learn new techniques or improve on skills… catching fish is always a nice bonus, too. But catching fish can never be guaranteed… otherwise there would be A LOT more guides, or maybe there would be no guides at all!?!!

Never hire a guide expecting to catch lots of fish, huge fish, or even a single fish. A friend told me a bumper sticker that reads – Guide Not God.

And before anyone plays “arm chair quarterback” and questions the guide or his ability or experience – let me say this: I would refer him tomorrow without hesitation. I have many clients who have had the exact opposite experience with this particular guide.

I don’t have employees, I don’t run a big pimping operation. I own my own guide service and it’s just me… when I am not available, I like to see my fellow local guides working. I want visitors to have a good experience.

Although he may be “young” he’s actually quite experienced. He’s worked/guided for a top local fly shop over 6 seasons. He’s a contract fly tier with Umqua Feather Merchants creating stillwater patterns (ironic) and has dedicated a lot of personal time to figuring out our local fisheries, stillwaters in particular.

He has outfished me on many occasions.

Perhaps he may be guilty of getting “big fish on the brain” and that clouded his decision to fish the lake over the stream on this particular day – but he had some very good days on Bridgeport Res recently - guides often feel more comfortable on water they have been working a lot… It’s just a bummer this was your first experience and you were not satisfied by the numbers/quality of fish on THIS particular day on a fishery you may not have been too excited about in the first place. A guides day is full of decisions and judgement calls – some time it works, some times it doesn’t… you can go hero to zero in a day.

To conclude I think it is important for anyone hiring a guide to talk openly! Ask questions. You should feel comfortable with what you are paying for. It’s very important to express YOUR vision for the day.

In the end, this is a business agreement and there are NO guarantees… only the faith that your guide will work hard to make the day worth it, whatever that may mean to you. At some point you have to trust your guide, roll the dice and try to have fun. If you dwell on the negative it is impossible to have a good time and you’re just set yourself up for disappointment.

Fishing is a wonderful thing and I hope that you and your son continue to get out together. The times you spend together are invaluable. Trust me that you will not always catch fish, big fish, whatever. It’s the tough days that make you come back to the river!! In the age of instant gratification – fishing is an Old School Reality Show.

[Dave Neal]

Larry-

I just read your response, after I wrote my passion filled novel.

You are spot on. I am really sorry for the one bad experience you had. Don't let it affect your experiences or decisions to hire a guide in future.

I agree, a guide should never set expectations... other than taking you fishing, teaching/instructing, etc...

Keep on fishing. Keep on fishing w/ your family and friends. Your son will get over the frustrating days... it will get him in shape for dating.

Another cliche quote: Many men fish their entire lives without realizing it's not the fish they are after. Apparently, H. D. Thoreau said that...

[Terry Imai]

I have spent many days in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho and have been lucky enough to be taught by some of the best working guides. In all of those days being able to spend some great times with them, I have never had a guide mention the size of fish or expected catch numbers for that day. I hire a guide to teach me how he fishes a certain piece of water and I always make sure we are clear before we start of what I'm expecting of that day.

One of the best examples was I had a guide trip with Jay Fair on Eagle Lake in late October. We had a freak freeze nail that area with below zero conditions for the previous two days. When I discussed with Jay the evening before on how we were going to fish, he told me that we should troll if we wanted to catch fish. This was my first time on Eagle Lake and told him that despite the cold front that screwed up our fly fishing, I wanted him to teach me how to fly fish Eagle Lake. We spent the next day covering every spot that Jay knew fish would be only if they would open their mouths.

BTW, we got skunked that day but Jay taught me how to fish Eagle Lake. I also learned that my favorite 4# that I used for almost 95% of my fly fishing wasn't going to cut it for big stillwater fishing and I picked up some additonal equipment for the next time.

Getting our a** handed to us and learning from that experience is the only way you can improve in this sport.

No guarantees should ever be expected....

[OceanSunfish]

"20 fish days, every 5th fish is a big brown, we caught a 24 inch yesterday".


There is nothing worse during a guided trip (as a 'captive audience') than hearing a guide talk all day about (or boasting about) "yesterday"....

[JasonB]

...

The big bummer for me was that the guide talked it up and then I talked it up to my son. It was a short trip, 3 days of fishing, and the guided part was supposed to be where we caught big fish all day, that's what I was told and that's what I told my son.

Didn't work out that way, hence my post here, which was a bit over the top. Blame it on my disappointment at having sold this to my son and then I didn't deliver. I don't get that much 1 on 1 time with him and I was hoping this was going to be the epic fishing trip and instead it was a wasted day where we could have been on our own and had fun. I'm extremely unhappy with the guide for taking that day away from me, I just don't have that many days available. Hence the over the top rant.

From all reports, Dave is a stand up guy, a great guide, and his people are the same. I think the lesson for me and him is manage the expectations. Don't set expectations of 20 fish and not deliver.

That does sound like a bummer, and I think we've all had similar days of fishing where we set out with big expectations and came back empty handed with our tail between our legs. A bitter pill to swallow for sure, made even tougher when we shelled out big bucks for it (or drove countless miles, or did some epic scrambling to get there).

I hope that in some way or another you and your son can look at that day as a day of fishing, and learning... rather than a "wasted day". You were after all spending some time together with your son, out on the water, perfecting your roll casts, etc... I always like to think that I'm out there first of all to get away from everything else, second to have fun, third to learn something, and last to take that chance at catching some fish rather than trees and rocks.

I totally agree with other comments that have been made about no guide being able to deliver fish to your nets, but simply to help and to teach. I sort of have to wonder if perhaps your guide for the day got a bit flustered himself when he wasn't able show you the kind of fishing he had talked up, perhaps making things a bit worse in the process. I know that when you're really good at something most of the time, it can certainly rattle you when you get reminded that you're only human and in no way in control of all aspects of the situation.
Better luck on your next trip together,
JB

[neonymph]

I was over there last week. Got some high winds one day only. Typical for the Owens. Hot Creek was difficult. I went on the Saddlebag Lake Road (you'll see it on your way down from Yosemite on Hwy. 120). Nice road. There's a stream from the Lake that is absolutely beautiful. I fished it about an hour. They were hitting PT's and Hair's Ears. Beautiful little Brookies. Good luck.Nice there right now.

[Sammy]

that sux. I'm actually almost shocked to hear that he'd pick the reservoir over the east walker river. I mean if he really is THAT good of a guide, it seems that he should be able to get his clients into fish on the East Walker. With the right knowledge of set up and cast, that river gives it UP!!!

Maybe he's not licensed to fish there or something?

[kabah088]

Dont forget about convict lake/creek, hike up to crystal lake near crystal crag and give us a report

[JAWallace]

The closest thing to guaranteed fish that I've experienced is Crowley Lake about now through mid September. There's a guide service, Sierra Drifters [http://www.sierradrifters.com/About%20Us%201.htm] that has a fleet of flats boats and take 3-4 fly fishermen at a time. They are really pricey and all they usually do is indicator fish but they ALWAYS catch fish during the artificial only season at Crowley.

I've fished Crowley at least 30 times and have always caught fish either from a float tube or a small boat. It's my favorite lake in the West (now that Craine Prairie is a bass lake) because once you get through the cow manure and get in the water it's easy and the fish are HOT. The fish aren't huge, but we've taken them up to 26" with a ten year average of probably 16"-17" with a mix of Browns and Rainbows with a few perch at times. My best weekend was 104 landed trout, but that one time we fished the creeks around the marina and almost every trout was 12". Great for quantity, but areas like McGee and Green Banks usually produce better quality fish.

I plan to take my daughter this season, and float tube the various spots. Small boats can be rented at the marina too. For a beginning fisherman especially Crowley is a perfect set up.