landing the big one?

[JasonB]

So I just had a couple of fantastic days of fishing, and 3 days in a row managed to hook up with a much larger sized fish than I ever had in the past. As you might have guessed, even without the title, I got to play with them but not land them. I've been thinking a lot about what it might have taken to actually bring them to hand and get to take a photo or two of them before gently letting them swim away out of my hands.

I'm curious to hear some variety of opinions on the do's and don'ts of playing, and landing bigger trout. I think I'm doing an ok job of playing them, certainly an educational experience to hook into a big one so I'm sure I could do better with some more experience. Certainly some strategy would help a bit, especially the "end game" bit about when and how to actually land them. Specifically I'm wondering about a healthy catch and release option for bigger trout (let's say over 2' for example).
JB

[tallguy]

By far, the most important factor in landing a big fish is to insure that you leave your camera at home.

I no longer bring a camera with me, and I seem to land nearly ALL the big ones once hooked.

[jbird]

What I do at the end of the battle is make sure my entire system (including my body) is a shock absorber. The closer the fish is, the less shock absorbtion you have. I keep my hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder very soft and responsive. If the fish surges, let the cussion begin in your rod and follow clear up your arm. So you extend the rod and your arm and even follow with your body if you have to. Most times you can do this without giving him any line. Let him surge, but gently make him work for it. Watch how hes moving and at the first opportunity, get his head out of the water and skate him in. Without his head underwater, he has much less leverage. Be prepared to do this whole thing more than once (sometimes several times) in the coarse of landing one fish.

Hope this helps

[JasonB]

What I do at the end of the battle is make sure my entire system (including my body) is a shock absorber. The closer the fish is, the less shock absorbtion you have. I keep my hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder very soft and responsive. If the fish surges, let the cussion begin in your rod and follow clear up your arm. So you extend the rod and your arm and even follow with your body if you have to. Most times you can do this without giving him any line. Let him surge, but gently make him work for it. Watch how hes moving and at the first opportunity, get his head out of the water and skate him in. Without his head underwater, he has much less leverage. Be prepared to do this whole thing more than once (sometimes several times) in the coarse of landing one fish.

Hope this helps

Actually yes, that does help! That all makes a lot of sense, particularly the part about using my body much more for absorbing those last head shakes or twists. As for needing to make several attempts, that's about where I got thus far. The biggest one I hooked came closest to hand several times, and I even got him part way in my net 3 times! Clearly a bigger net would have helped, but even there I had a hard time handling all that leader/tippet distance by myself.
thanks, JB

[Dan LeCount]

Try to angle your rod towards the direction the fish is swimming and gradually turn his head until hes pointing back towards you. His shape is made for swimming forward, instead of pulling against him, use his energy against him and constantly redirect him to swimming back towards you. If you cant see the river bottom and the possible snags that can be there, keep your rod high to decrease your chances of getting caught on unknown rocks and snags. Fighting low works great in open water, but if your line is closer to horizontal in water with structure, it increases your chances of being wrapped around the various junk the fish will try to swim around or hide under.

[jcsesica]

Landing them hasn't always been difficult. The hardest part for me is walking the fine line between playing them delicately enough to land them without playing them so long that I know that they can't survive the release. Often times a good fight and LDR is a victory for me, knowing that most big fish could be landed if cared to fight them slowly enough and had no regard for their healthy release.

[Dan LeCount]

Anytime their head is pulled out of the water, the fight will be shortened. its like us running a race and then dunking our head under water real quick. Also occasionally when they roll you can land them early if theyre close. They seem to disorient themself, you just have to be careful cause sometimes theyll snap out of it and burst off again.

[JasonB]

Landing them hasn't always been difficult. The hardest part for me is walking the fine line between playing them delicately enough to land them without playing them so long that I know that they can't survive the release. Often times a good fight and LDR is a victory for me, knowing that most big fish could be landed if cared to fight them slowly enough and had no regard for their healthy release.

Totally agreed there. Specifically:


Specifically I'm wondering about a healthy catch and release option for bigger trout (let's say over 2' for example).
JB

I'm sure that I could have played at least one of the 3 piggies to the point of exhaustion and landed it, but that wasn't an option for me personally (no photo, or trophy would be worth that to me). The other 2... well I didn't even have that option: one broke me off while I was trying to curtail a major escape run, the other took me straight into the bushes he had been hanging out in (it was a pretty far fetched long shot of a fish to begin with, but I had to try).

I should say that I'm totally happy with just getting to play with those biggies a bit, each one was extremely satisfying for different reasons. I just wouldn't have minded a chance to get a pic or two to share. Still I'm pretty happy that at least I got to get a really good look at the biggest of them, a pretty good look at one of them, and got to hook and loose one that I was watching surface feeding in a VERY tough spot to present to.
JB

[JasonB]

Anytime their head is pulled out of the water, the fight will be shortened. its like us running a race and then dunking our head under water real quick. Also occasionally when they roll you can land them early if theyre close. They seem to disorient themself, you just have to be careful cause sometimes theyll snap out of it and burst off again.

Another good idea, thanks for the tip. And I owe you another thanks as well: for the fly! You gave Jim (bigfly) a really sweet looking streamer of some sort that he in turn gave me to try (I think it's a big sculpin of some sort, but it also floats and looks very mousy if twitched and wiggled around a bit in an eddy). It worked out well... till I watched it taken to the bushes in Walters mouth :eek:
I need to see about getting another one...
cheers, JB

[Ralph]

The biggest one I hooked came closest to hand several times, and I even got him part way in my net 3 times! Clearly a bigger net would have helped, but even there I had a hard time handling all that leader/tippet distance by myself.
thanks, JB

It sounds like you had your rod tip in the air. Remember that whatever is attached to your rod (dead or alive) will always wind up directly down current of the tip. When it gets close, kneel down, put your net in the water then swing your rod tip directly upstream. The fish will almost swim into your net.

[JasonB]

It sounds like you had your rod tip in the air. Remember that whatever is attached to your rod (dead or alive) will always wind up directly down current of the tip. When it gets close, kneel down, put your net in the water then swing your rod tip directly upstream. The fish will almost swim into your net.

Let me make sure I follow you correctly on this:
Yes, during each failed attempt to net him I did have the tip up (trying to lift him up a bit). I was slightly downstream of the fish still, bringing the net slowly in from under and behind him, but he was totally on to that and would swim away right about the time the rim of the net would get past his shoulders.
The kneeling down part actually makes a lot of sense, allowing me to plunge the net further under water. When you say to swing the rod tip directly upstream, are you meaning at a low angle (more horizontal) or still keeping it up high when swinging it upstream?
thanks,
JB

[thepeacockspecial]

use a fast action rod if you are not using one yet :D

[Ralph]

Let me make sure I follow you correctly on this:
Yes, during each failed attempt to net him I did have the tip up (trying to lift him up a bit). I was slightly downstream of the fish still, bringing the net slowly in from under and behind him, but he was totally on to that and would swim away right about the time the rim of the net would get past his shoulders.
The kneeling down part actually makes a lot of sense, allowing me to plunge the net further under water. When you say to swing the rod tip directly upstream, are you meaning at a low angle (more horizontal) or still keeping it up high when swinging it upstream?
thanks,
JB

The more parallel the rod is to the water and more directly upstream the tip, the more the fish is going to be forced to swim at you. BUT the more acute the line angle the less ability you have to soften the blow should he make a fast run. Judgment call. Don't chase the fish with the net. Have the net in the water and guide the fish to the net. Net it face first of course.

[tallguy]

As for real advice: Big fish are just the same as little fish, don't treat them or think of them any differently and you'll get them in. Its nervous hands and the death grip and worry of losing a big fish that loses them. When they want line, give it to them. And when they give up line, take it in. There is really no advice needed other than that. They are the same. Soft hands for all fish. And there is really no substitute for landing hundreds and thousands of fish to be able to tell the difference between when a fish wants line and when they are giving it up. No shortcuts. 10,000 hours of practice makes an expert, in any discipline. Until you get close to that, count it all as practice and expect to lose a few.

[NorCalDrifter56]

I always seem to be hip deep in fast water perched precariously on a slippery rock mending like hell when I set up on a subtle takes that sends a silver torpedo jetting out of the water heading for the faster water.

I agree that most of the advice you have read so far...... The fact is that every situation requires a different tactic. I think the trick is in the line control and getting a good solid hook set (unless you are breaking them off).

Leading the fish as one of the previous responders recommended seems to work best for me. pulling up and directly against the big ones doesn'd seem to work. I also agree that you should try to spend a lot of time reviving the fish. It is the big one that we want to save the most. It is that genetic pool that we want....

Good luck.

Curtis Cole
norcaldrifter56@yahoo.com

[bigfly]

We have some fish up here that have been caught a few times.
I often wonder how many times, a biggie has come to the net in their lifetime.
So,...... from time to time, they refuse to cooperate. Not that I blame them.
Jason, had one of those his last time up.
These fish know their pool, and every rock and root. Breaking strength of 5X as well.
They have a trick list too.
Plan A,B, etc.
It's a treat to observe. Not just a panic response, but considered.
As tall guy said, it takes a while to learn their moves.
10,000 hrs sounds about right to know what they are going to do, when they do, and be there too.
Many times we just stand and watch, while the deal goes down.
They often save a move for the net as well, just in case you were thinking it's a done deal.....
If every one went in the net easily, I'd move on to a new and challenging sport!
Last year, there was a brown I needed three tries, over a week, to land.
He pulled the same tricks each time we met, (High speed zig under a snag.) but I learned his moves and the last time,
I hung with him.
He was not pleased. Really gave me the eye.
I think that even though they have a brain the size of a kidney bean, they use it all.
For me, if you can match their moves, it isn't just tiring, it's "psychologically" crushing.
Break their will, by good moves, not power. I suggest not showing them the net, just use a lightning fast scoop.
And then, treat them nice, (Soft mesh net, soft hands, and keep them in the water.) they earned it.

Jim

[Chet Troutpuncher]

Obviously you want a net that has a big mouth but also make sure it is plenty deep. A few weeks ago I netted a fish in the 20" range with my net that is 18" long. Unfortunately it's only 9" or so deep. A few forceful flops from a trout of this size can pop them right out of a net this shallow. I had fought this 'bow for a few minutes and was hoping to give it some r&r. I got the lead fly out of its mouth quickly and then the thrashing began. Popped out of the net and in the process hooked itself with the trailing fly. Once out of the net it quickly unhooked itself somehow but it was an ugly release.

Bigger, deeper nets are a pain to haul around but both of you will be glad you have one. You'll get your photo and the fish will get a clean release.

[bigfly]

Amen, Chet! We've all had a less than perfect release.
I have been known to reccomend Brodin's Frying pan, float-tube.
Big, clear, with a longer handle.
And if one net won't do it, use two. HA!
I knew I'd find a spot for this pic Jason.
(Note: The supportive hands, no squeezers please!.)
http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/Bigfly1/Fishy%20friends/20110519-P1000607.jpg

[Dave Neal]

This is an exciting topic for many anglers.

Jbird nailed it w/ the shock absorber analogy…

I think Tall Guy summed it up VERY well, although if you learn from your mistakes and get some advice along the way – an angler can learn how to land big fish much sooner.

It helps to be a well-rounded angler! Go fish for different species (bass, bonefish, carp, etc) and learn about rod angles and how much pressure you can put on fish with 1x-6x.

It helps to gain experience on fisheries that have higher % of big fish!

When fighting big fish you have to fight back! You cannot worry about losing the fish – there will be many more if you are an angler that gets out and fishes. Keep the fish off balance and turn their head where you want them to go when possible.

Landing big fish is like gambling – you can’t worry about the $$ you may lose; you need to play the game to win. Don’t fight fish till they’re so exhausted they don’t return healthy.

Lastly… removing a trout from the water immediately after landing them is like having someone stick your head under water after running 1/4 mile! It would suffocate you…

At the risk of preaching too much…

[Dave Neal]

As far as tips to contribute to this thread?

1.Always net a big fish head-first, like Ralph said. Don’t try and come from behind- tail first!

2.If someone is netting your fish for you, drop the rod and give them slack as soon as the fish is netted!!

But the best advice I have to offer is when a big fish gets downriver of you!

3. When a big fish runs downriver in heavy or fast water (and assuming it’s not foul hooked, but hooked in the mouth)… You either need to go after it – or make it “swim” back to you.

To make it swim upriver back to you… Don’t keep fighting the fish with “your rod tip up in the air” like we’ve all been told. That only attempts to pull the fish up to the surface where the fastest, heaviest, current is! That’s not where any fish wants to be and they’ll break off, bend hooks, or just come un-glued.

Instead, drop that rod angle low and to the side usually on the upstream side of you (counterintuitive I know) and your rod tip almost touching water. Keep the same bend in the rod, like when your “rod tip was up” to dampen your tippet or prevent bending hooks, breaking off etc…

Wait a second for the fish to face upriver into the current again then just start reeling them in! The fish will start swimming upstream toward you!! Why? Because you have allowed the fish to settle on the bottom of the river where, (a) the fish feels safer (b) there is less current and water velocity than the surface (fastest water on surface/slower current = deeper).

Continue to reel that fish up to you while keeping your rod low and to the side. If they turn their head and body into the current, let them make another run downstream – be prepared that big trout might be able to do this a few times!!

When you get serious about landing them, keep your rod angle low and to the side and reel all your leader up, maybe leave a little fly line out off the tip – but if it’s a long leader and the fish is ready, reel it all up inside the rod. Trust your knots and your hookset - you are going to net this fish now!!!!! (If there are any weaknesses in your system, then you were simply not meant to land this fish)

Anyway, on a 1-2-3 count continue to “pull” the fish” out of the current diagonally towards the shoreline. Swiftly and with some authority, swing your rod up till it’s overhead. This action will LIFT the fish’s head like an airplane taking off (water current past fish fins is a lot like wind over an airplane wing) once the head is on/out of the surface he’s in the net before he knows it!!

This technique is difficult to explain in words, easier to demonstrate on the water, but I teach it a lot! It works very well because you are allowing the fish to stay along the bottom of the river where they feel more comfortable and you are not continually forcing them to the surface of the river where the fast current is.

You will net a lot of big fish this way since many big fish run down river. If the fish is foul hooked, then it just becomes another “fish story” of a huge fish that couldn’t be landed.

[Jet]

I pretty much just yell "Shut up and land the damm fish". Has worked pretty good for us over the years.

Jet

[Dan LeCount]

Dave touched on a good point. Staying parallel to the fish and as close as you can be helps you maintain a lot of control. If he heads downriver get after them if its safe.

[harryls]

Great thread with plenty of information that even an "old guy" can learn from. Granted, the casual release and tail tap after resuscitation is the goal, and learning all the best techniques for reaching that moment are important, but reality can stray from the Hollywood version. Should the worst case scenario occur, the best I can add is there really is no "loss" if that trophy becomes unzipped in the landing process. We set up our own personal parameters of success and failure in life and it usually works out best if we are most generous with our self evaluation. Simply put, focus on the success: fly selection, presentation, hookup and the adrenaline rush of bringing it close were perfect. If that's not enough, take a deep breath and look around. You are standing in a beautiful river where you really want to be doing what you really want to do. It probably doesn't get any better- (with or without clothes!). It's time for gratitude and "Thank you, Mr. Mo" rather than disappointment. Now, if only I could remember this next time I ...

Harry

[Ralph]

Landing a big char is not landing a big steelhead is not landing a big brown. I think char are the hardest because they spin and twist all the way into the net and keep spinning. Steelhead travel in rather straight lines and are pretty predictable (in fact have never used a net on a steelhead unless in a boat). Browns routinely get a last burst of energy just when you think they're done.

I am not a fan of jabbing the net into the water at the last second. Too many times to count have seen the net hit the leader or fish or get caught on a dropper. Much rather have the net in the water and slightly below and in front of the fish as I lead him my way.

[JasonB]

Awesome! This is exactly what I was hoping for, and then some. I think so far for me the really key points that seem particularly relevant that I had not been doing thus far:
-use my body more to absorb the shock of any quick turns, especially close to the net
-net head first, the more I think about it the more sense that makes. I had always been afraid to do that under the fear that it would "spook" them and cause a more ballistic response. But it really makes sense that it's far easier for them to just swim a bit harder forward out of the net than to have to turn and run away from a net that they are headed directly into.
-the advice from Dan and Dave about lifting their head up is also a new one for me, and I totally see where this could be really helpful in certain moments (like the final netting part)

Otherwise, having a friend help with a second net looks like a GREAT idea! One net from behind, another to cut him off from the front. Foolproof! Thanks Jim!

Totally agree with all of the comments about not being too caught up with the final netting of the fish being the ultimate mark of success. In case my post didn't quite convey that well enough, I'm really happy with the fact that I was lucky enough to hook into a really big trout, and then a bigger one the following day, and yet another big boy the third day! Totally went beyond my wildest expectations for the trip, and I did manage to land several others on the first two days (and lost several too). I actually feel pretty good with how well I played the largest of them (just not the actual netting part), and reasonably happy with how I did with the last one too. The first one I was lucky enough to be able to have a strike from, but there really wasn't a chance in hell of landing even a mid sized trout in that mess of bushes. So no disappointments whatsoever for me, except not having a few pics to share with others. The best part for me was getting to get a reasonable look at them, very colorful, large, healthy, beautiful looking fish.
Thanks for all the great sharing of experiences, I love how much I learn from these discussions. The wealth of knowledge here is really astounding to a new guy to the sport.
JB

[Ed Wahl]

A great thread Jason. Lots of good stuff here. My favorite, and I hope it sticks with you also, is Jets. "Land that damn fish" is what I get in my head whenever they are big enough to give me problems.

I've used stationary objects to give myself an idea of just what it takes to break different tippets. Man, you'd be surprised at just how much effort it takes with a fly rod to break a 4x tippet. It's almost impossible with a 4wt rod.

Put the screws to 'em hard and use everyone else's advice from there. I know I'm going to.

Thanks to all that chimed in.

Ed

[MarkF]

Lastly I might add, use a heavy enough leader to land the fish quickly. Too many people talk about using 6x or 7x as if it's a badge of honor. Learn to cast and fish correctly and you can get away with much heavier leader. Then play the fish as hard as you can. Learn the breaking strength of your tippet. If you break one off or pull the hook out, oh well you broke it off, at least you know how hard you can push it.

[bigfly]

One great thing about this area, is you might get practice with larger fish.
Had a big guy on the other afternoon.
Did a "strength test" with 5x, and a sz 22 hook.
The big guy wouldn't be moved from his hole..
Hook failure is a sad thing.
I recommend tying smaller nymphs on a heavier wire.
Store bought can be a little lite for heavy fish in heavy water.
And practice, practice, practice......they are in there, and starting to feed now.
When I said, "don't show them the net, and be lightning fast".
I should say, the net is in the water with an edge facing them.
I don't show them the whole thing till I'm ready, they know what it means.....

Jim

[Terry Imai]

This is a really good question and I often seen a really great question on this message board. When I'm out fishing, I can usually gauge someone's ability on how they play the fish and their attempts at landing it. The vast majority of fishermen do not have a clue how to bring in an average size fish and forget about them bringing a "fish of a lifetime".

The longer you make the fish fight you brings up their lactic acid and most people tend to "overplay" your fish. This could affect your fish to recover from you catching it and could possibly swim off to die. You would be amazed how much pressure you can put on either 5x-6x tippet without a breakoff especially if your know how to maintain the proper rod angles along with picking your proper spot to fight your fish (no heavy water but rather use calmer water to fight your fish).

If anyone reads Dave Neal posting on page two, he has stated everything you need to properly bring in the "one" of a lifetime and I find it very refreshing to have someone post the correct information without leading the reader on the wrong path. The only additional comment that I would add to Dave's comment is having the proper landing net can make all of the difference to make it easier for your fish. If you notice the types of nets that guide use, you will probably find a similarity amongst them. These guys have to take people who are fishing for the first time to experienced fishermen. In most cases, they have a longer handle along with a rubber or other material to reduce the fish from harming themselves in the traditional netting. Guides have to maintain the quality of their fishery and cannot have any fish die due to mishandling. I have found this net to be the best overall net in the telescoping handle and allow the fish to recover while resting comfortably until they can swim away.

http://www.themeasurenet.com/index.htm

Bill does carry this line of nets and it also measures your fish, so if you have a few fishing friends that like to expand the length of their catch won't let that happen.

Just my thoughts for today....

[huntindog]

i just carry a big long handled retractable gaff...hook em right behind the gill plate and the fight is over.

[Dustin Revel]

the best way to land a big fish is with heavy tippet, a big hook, and a good set. obviously you can't always get them on a big fly or heavy tippet, but a hookset is something you can control. have as little slack on the water as possible and avoid the 90 foot drifts as well.

as far as fighting them, i like to be a bit more aggressive than most and i'm sure its cost me some fish. I try to keep them off the bottom (except when they've got me beat downstream see dave's post), that is where they are most comfortable. i keep my rod at about a 45 from the x-y plane as well as to the fish until the fish is near. once the fish is in close (within 2 rod lengths maybe more) I get down and dirty leading the fish the direction it wants to go then changing directions turning it backwards. repeat that a few times then I real down until my rod is slightly above parallel to the xy, and as soon as i've turned the fishes head i lift straight up utilizing the butt of the rod, and try as hard as i can to get its head above water and slide accross the surface of the water. remember you're not fighting it with the tip of the rod. the power in all rods come from the butt, which is why i prefer softer rods (they have much better shock absorption plus they roll cast/mend much easier).

when netting fish i differ from most. I like a quick decisive stab and lift/pull of the net (the net often starts on the surface of the water or in it. netting the fish head first is ideal, because it is much more dificult to for the fish to swim out of the net. that being said i've netted/tailed fish from all angles. I take pride in my tailing and netting... its been described as ninja-esque. also if you don't have a net while trout fishing try to cradle the fish and lift it from the water, but don't squeeze that will only propel it away from you. also don't be affraid to gently slide a fish on wet gravel. i keep them about halfway in the water then quickly put them back in the water to catch their breathe before snapping a photo.

[chixnribs]

I've hooked and lost two really big fish over the last couple of weeks. Good hook set, good initial play, then the fish "stall out", moving into a steady current and holding. Both times I kept steady pressure on the fish, but did not force a move. Both times the fish, after 5-10 seconds of not moving, gave a quick head shake and were gone. Lesson learned. Ever replay those moments in your head...again and again and....?

[Terry Imai]

Always make a fish fight the current and/or your rod. Determine your river/stream location to fight the fish is critical to how quickly you bring them in and eliminate your losses. I estimate the fight in a fish from its initial run and the fighting quality of most fish in that piece of water.

If I’m fighting some good fish in tougher moving water, I often make the initial part of the fight occur in heavy water where I’ll have the fish to be slightly upstream of me with my rod on the downstream side of the fish. All fish will pull directly from the pressure, so this setup will force the fish to fight the current and your rod. This will make them tire quicker than if you attempted to fight them in softer water.

I've have instances where the fish have "buried” themselves into the current (probably behind some obstacle and they’re resting from the fight) and it appears there is nothing you can do. I’ll lift the downstream angle of my rod to force the fish’s head to move off the bottom of the current and that will put them back into fighting mode. This will lift their head up and move them to a different spot to fight you. I’ve tapped the butt of my rod just to irritate the fish that makes them move off their holding spot and then I move them to my predetermined spot to finally net them.

The key thing you need to do is to make yourself in control of the fish and determine how you’re going to fight them on your terms. If you have to chase a fish to improve a better spot to land them, then do it…

[bigfly]

Terry's 02. cents are worth far more.
I say often, before you make the perfect drift, look where you can run.
Rehearse the possibilities in your mind, before-hand, and you raise your odds of touching fin.
I try to talk to clients about what may happen before we get to the water..
Mostly folks seize up, and watch it happen. Like a bad accident.
If you can, let'em run a bit. Take some steam off. But don't just let them work you, take charge. (like terry and dustin said)
And don't let them rest while they're on either (very common too).
Although a 5wt is standard, in these flows a 6wt is a better tool.
Of course, we don't win every fight, that's how we get better (the fish do too).
Learning to land biggish fish takes as much study as casting, or drifts or bugs, or reading water or any other facet of our sport.
Doesn't happen over night.
I like nothing better than to have fish on that's at a worthy adversary.
Pull for pull, trick for trick. Whether he sees the inside of my net or not.
Of course that would be nice.
I did kick down for a good net...:mrgreen:

[JasonB]

Well I've been beyond broke for a bit now, but finally some cash came through that had been held up for too long. So I think that I may be in the market for a bigger net (again! and yes Jim, I know: you told me). I can't wait to test some of these new ideas out, and I've been practicing on some of the little guys that I've been catching lately. Of course I'm sure that now, finally armed with tons of great ideas, and some huge landing net; the big guys wont be so willing to play... Any that do will likely have a much bigger edge with the high flows that appear to be here to stay for quite some time now.

But I sure plan to try my best,
JB