Drama on The Mad

[Bruce Berman]

The fish gods have been good to me the past 2 days. Yesterday I lost a fly box and found it floating in the river 50 yards away. Here's what happened today.
I was fishing upstream from 4 guys; one was solo and below him were 3 buddies. I struck up a conversation with the solo guy who mentioned he wanted to try fly fishing sometime. I gave him a few pointers and later he photographed me with a nice hatchery buck. I then gave the buck to one of the other 3 gear guys.
"Solo" and I talked a bit more, and when he snagged onto a fly that I'd lost, I gave it to him as his first fly. He then asked me if I'd noted on my steelhead card that I'd kept a fish. I've never kept a steelie, so doing that never entered my mind. I then said that the guy I gave it to had actually killed and kept the fish.
"Solo" replied, "I'm an undercover warden, and you seem to be a nice guy. Would you log that fish in, and would you not talk to those other fishermen, for me?"
Damn right I would. He then said that I'd been responsible for the fish being kept and mentioned that he didn't know how many fish the other 3 guys had kept. He then left. In a few minutes, 2 uniformed F&G wardens showed up and checked the gear guys.
Later, in talking to the guys, the one I gave the buck to said his heart was pounding hard when the wardens talked to him, but luckily he'd logged in the buck on his steelhead card. One fish and 2 log ins? That doesn't seem quite right.

[Charlie S]

Bruce, no matter what, the bottom line is that you are responsible for knowing and following the letter of the law. Agreement with the law doesn't count for beans in court.

[Bruce Berman]

I totally agree with you, Charlie. Like I said, I'd never kept a steelhead, so it just never dawned on me. Luckily, I'm a "nice guy".

[STEELIES/26c3]

TECHNICALLY.... I believe you can legally give a fish to another person and if they log it in you do not have to.

The recipient MUST have a valid fishing license and a steelhead report card and they must log it in immediately upon receiving the fish.

That prevents double-counting and protects the integrity of statistics (when biologists conduct creel census reports...)

It also protects you and the recipient against non-compliance (marking report card) and the retainer of the fish from over in-possession limits.

That overzealous warden just messed up the numbers~;)

[Covelo]

I have always considered the fishing license as a take permit, not a possession permit. Otherwise you would need a license to purchase salmon from your local market. When I have given away fish I have always marked them as mine so I think the warden was correct in that you needed to mark the fish since it was your take. That said I would not want to be the other guy explaining that the fish in my possession was actually taken by some other guy who is no longer present. That seems like an automatic citation.

[Dustin Revel]

Out of respect for what is trying to be done by our law enforcement please delete this.

[mr. 3 wt.]

Out of respect for what is trying to be done by our law enforcement please delete this.

Why Dusty? It would be good for people to read this so that they would think twice before breaking the law. None of us know (except for Bruce) what this undercover warden looks like. I am glad to hear that this is being done these day and there is not a better place than the Mad to do this. Well, except maybe the American too.

[jbird]

If I harvest a fish, I record it before I make another cast. If I run into someone later and i give it to him, its gotta be recorded on his tag too. Otherwise he will be illegaly in possesion of the fish. It certainly effects creel counts for the season, but theres really no other way to do it. Thered just be too many guys saying "oh, this fish was given to me thats why I didnt tag it".

On the other hand, if someones there when I land the fish and he wants it, Ill let him tag it. Probably pushing the law there a little. Good thing I rarely kill them. Thatd be not-so-funny if the guy standing there happened to be a warden and I played it like that.

[Larry S]

There's probably a reason for it being called the Mad. We were there last week and talked
to several DFG guys at the hatchery. They were on the lookout for somebody who was
taking fish out of the weir. We were told that there were a number of "undercover
wardens on the river. You better assume that you are being "looked at" whenever you're out there. We were checked by a young ranger named "Shane' on the Eel. I'm
glad to see them. Times are tough; but wildlife deserve that extra chance!
Larry S

[joshfish]

if your supposed to record the catch wether you keep it or not wouldnt you just record it as released on your card and the person you gave it to record it on his card as kept.

[FlyReelFisher]

if your supposed to record the catch wether you keep it or not wouldnt you just record it as released on your card and the person you gave it to record it on his card as kept.

Did you read anything above before you wrote this?

And ya! I "release" my fish(under that definition) into the local fish market for $25 a head...no problem. (Only kidding folks!!)

[Bruce Berman]

Dustin, I've got to agree with Mr. 3 wt. If more fishermen knew that there were incognito wardens, then maybe they'd think twice before breaking the law. I made a stupid mistake, and the warden, who had gotten to know me a bit, saw that it was an innocent oversight and gave me a break. I really appreciated that. But, had I knowingly, purposely, broken the law, he should have thrown the book at me. I like the thought of wardens hiding in the bushes, spying on the bad guys.

[FlyReelFisher]

There is new uniformed warden in the North Coast. His nickname is "Mr. Personality." He is "all business."

Unfortunately he gave break after break to guys fishing the Smith for Salmon. Guys with barbed hooks and no salmon card were let off the hook time after time. These guys would talk smack about the warden, say out loud how they didnt have a card, and then would talk more smack after he let them off the hook. They work at Pelican Bay, the warden probably knew the DA wouldnt prosecute or something...

The laws need to be enforced. Period. You are lucky Bruce, and I mean you no ill will. But these breaks have to stop.

[Bruce Berman]

I appreciate your sentiments. Sometimes, justice is not following the rules to the "T". I have been steelheading in California since 2002. In that time, I have never kept/killed a steelhead. This was purely an oversight since I'd never intended to kill a fish. This is quite different than what you described above with the lawless buttheads. I'll also admit that although I mash down the barbs on 99.8% of my flies, I have found, maybe once a year, that I have made a few casts with a barbed hook. I have no idea if this happens to other fly guys, but although I strive for perfection, I always fall short. I truly believe that justice is best served when every infraction is weighed before being judged.

[huntindog]

apparantly the confusion does not end with fisherman..I was told BY A WARDEN, that because the steelhead card is a means for biologists to count fish, that if one fisherman takes another fishermans fish that only the fisherman in possession of the fish should mark it as a take on his steelhead card......This was a lengthy conversation and he said this in no uncertain terms...this warden had a strong biology background which many dont any more. He fully understood the fact that the fish would be double counted and would skew the data.

[Fish Guru]

when you give a fish away it counts towards your limit without exception, i'm not sure what section but I beleive it's clearly stated in the regulations. It makes sense too, you were the person who originally caught and kept the fish before you gave it away so it would only make sense that it falls under part of your limit. The OP got very lucky in this situation, that ticket has a hefty fine and not knowing the laws and regulations is not an acceptable defense in the courts' eyes.

[Scott V]

If you caught it and killed it then it goes towards your daily count. Doesn't matter who you gave it to you took it.


2010 - 2011 California regulation:

1.17. Bag and Possession Limit.
No more than one daily bag limit of each kind of fish, amphibian, reptile, mollusk or crustacean named in these regulations may be taken or possessed by any one person unless otherwise authorized; regardless of whether they are fresh, frozen, or otherwise preserved.

[huntindog]

the steelhead report card has nothing to do with bag and possesion limit..the report card was designed as a meens of record keeping to determine how many fish were being caught.

[Wing Blue]

5.88. STEELHEAD REPORT AND RESTORATION CARD REQUIREMENTS FOR
INLAND WATERS


(c) When a steelhead is retained, the card holder must IMMEDIATELY fill in
a circle indicating whether the fish is a wild fish or a hatchery fish.

[FlyReelFisher]

Things would be better for wild fish and easier to manage if:

1) Discontinue Hatchery programs. They are scientifically proven to reduce wild fish survival/reproduction. After a few years(to work out the clipped fins) then move to statewide Catch and Release.

2) Ban bait. Not gear, just bait. It will reduce fish mortality and poaching for steelhead eggs.

Www.whitefishcantjump.com

There are some good arguments with scientific evidence on this guys blog.

[jbird]

Things would be better for wild fish and easier to manage if:

1) Discontinue Hatchery programs. They are scientifically proven to reduce wild fish survival/reproduction. After a few years(to work out the clipped fins) then move to statewide Catch and Release.

2) Ban bait. Not gear, just bait. It will reduce fish mortality and poaching for steelhead eggs.

Www.whitefishcantjump.com

There are some good arguments with scientific evidence on this guys blog.

Oh Lord! Well we went from a pretty eduactional topic to this again. How about we stay on track with Bruces thread?

[huntindog]

to me it seems like the right answer would be that the person who caught the fish would mark it off on their own card...then if that person wanted to give the fish away it would be done like any other transfer...as an example when my hunting partner and i both kill a limit of ducks and i want to give my ducks to him i send him on his way with my ducks and transfer note with my hunting license number, date, etc. I certainly can not see any reason why both parties should mark it off on their steelhead card (again since the steelhead card is supposed to be for gathering scientific data).

[Mike O]

to me it seems like the right answer would be that the person who caught the fish would mark it off on their own card...then if that person wanted to give the fish away it would be done like any other transfer...as an example when my hunting partner and i both kill a limit of ducks and i want to give my ducks to him i send him on his way with my ducks and transfer note with my hunting license number, date, etc. I certainly can not see any reason why both parties should mark it off on their steelhead card (again since the steelhead card is supposed to be for gathering scientific data).

If your buddy has a double limit of fresh killed birds, he would be hosed. Law reads possession limit is diff from daily limit. You could give them to him the next day, but not the same day.

I do this with abalone diving. I get my limit one day, give them to my wife, then get another limit the next day, if on a 2 day trip. If we with another family, I give mine to the other wife, and my buddy gives his to mine, with transfer notes. As long as the abs are tagged on different days, it is OK, according to DFG.

[huntindog]

If your buddy has a double limit of fresh killed birds, he would be hosed. Law reads possession limit is diff from daily limit. You could give them to him the next day, but not the same day.

.


not true at all, you are allowed to transfer with documentation, the only stipulation is that it can not be done in the field..the transfer needs to occur back at your personal vehicle or home.

No person shall put or leave any migratory game birds at any place (other than at his personal abode), or in the custody of another person for picking, cleaning, processing, shipping, transportation, or storage (including temporary storage), or for the purpose of having taxidermy services performed, unless such birds have a tag attached, signed by the hunter, stating his address, the total number and species of birds, and the date such birds were killed. Migratory game birds being transported in any vehicle as the personal baggage of the possessor shall not be considered as being in storage or temporary storage.

No person shall possess, have in custody, or transport more than the daily bag limit or aggregate daily bag limit, whichever applies, of migratory game birds, tagged or not tagged, at or between the place where taken and either (a) his automobile or principal means of land transportation; or (b) his personal abode or temporary or transient place of lodging; or (c) a migratory bird preservation facility; or (d) a post office; or (e) a common carrier facility.

[Bruce Berman]

To possibly throw a fly in the ointment, yes I "kept" the fish, but I didn't kill it. The other guy did. I gave him a live fish. Don't know if this affects matters any.