You make the call... am I fishing or fly fishing for steelhead?

[WinterrunRon]

The words below are from a portion of the following article: http://dougroseflyfishing.com/blog/?p=225


"It isn’t the fly on the end of your leader that determines if you are truly fly fishing or not–it’s the way you fish it. In fly fishing, the angler’s hands and rod and line are used to place the fly in the most advantageous place to interest a fish. That’s been the case from Scotland to the chalk streams and from the Catskills to the Pacific Coast steelhead rivers. It is true whether the fly is dead-drifting or swinging. A fly fisherman fishes the fly.

When you tie a bobber on your leader, you are no longer fishing the fly; you are fishing the bobber. The cast and mends and line handling are all done to get the bobber into position so it can direct the fly. You are using a device to present the fly. It doesn’t matter if you’ve got the most beautiful Orange Heron in the world on the end of your line. If you’ve got a bobber above it, you aren’t really winter steelhead fly fishing

Now, I know that I don’t stand a snowball’s chance in Hell of convincing very many people who fish flies and beads below an indicator that they aren’t fly fishing. But let me present a little circumstantial evidence for those of you willing to listen.

If there is one thing that has united winter steelhead fly fishers from the Eel River to the North Umpqua to the East Fork of the Lewis to Skagit and Campbell it’s that they didn’t usually catch a lot of fish.

A dedicated winter steelhead fly fisherman or woman willingly accepts that they won’t catch that many fish because they are more interested in the way they fish than whether they end up with a fish at the end of the day. In all other methods of winter steelheading that I have experienced, it’s just the opposite–catching fish is more important than the way you do it. Indeed, most expert winter steelheaders that I know who don’t fly fish experiment with a variety of techniques until they catch a fish. For them, the fish is more important than they technique."

I've read posts and their subsequent threads about what is and isn't fly fishing. Frankly, I really don't care either way. But in reading this portion of the article, the author stated his position and explained his definition to a degree I haven't read before. I found it interesting. Especially the point he makes about what is presenting the fly determines whether you're fly fishing or not.

But it got me thinking... and here's my silly question. I enjoy fishing for steelhead in the cold dead of winter, snow, rain, wind, high-colored water, heavy current, with a big fly, two handed rod and a sink tip. That's when and how I enjoy fishing for steelhead. But using the author's definition, would you consider the sink tip a device or not? In other words, am I fishing for steelhead or fly fishing for steelhead? :confused:

[Rick J]

my only comment would be that if my indicator was a big dry fly and I had a fly below it would I then be fly fishing??

The statement does not make sense to me though I do not indie fish - the way I look at it, if you are using a fly rod, a fly line and a fly - you are flyfishing - does not matter what else you attach to your line - ie indicator, split shot.....

[Bob Laskodi]

Why does any ones else's definition of fly fishing matter? Who cares what random angler Doug Rose defines as fly fishing? It doesn't matter to me, the only opinion that matters is mine. These arguments are a supreme waste of time.

[jbird]

Seriously? Who the he!! cares?! If swinging is your gig, fine! Do it, enjoy it. If you nymph with indicators, good for you. Have fun! Its all good. Its all FISHING. Everytime some holy roller swinger offers a new "angle" on why indicators are not flyfishing I just want to find where he fishes, low hole him and nymph the piss out of "his" water.

What next? Door to door swing advocates handing out pamphlets, shoving down our throats?


........ok bye :-)

[David Lee]

Hi Ron .

I hope you don't take this as me being rude , or flip .....

The day I actually give a shit as to what anyone else thinks of the way I fish (or ANY other aspect of my life ...) is the day I have failed - only YOU are accountable for what you've done in this world . When whatever person or authority has to live my life and pay for whatever mistake I've done , then I'll toe whatever line .

D.~

[Jeff Fisher]

That's the same article I was given a link to on my "fishing bugs on the SF Eel" post last week. I believe I used the term "ABSOLUTELY ABSURD" to describe that very snippet.

It's things like this that slowly chipped away the mortar of the NCFFB that many of us on this Board used to know and love. That Board was utterly destroyed by stuff like this, fishing eggs and beads, and especially newbies posting pics of fish out of the water. Don't let this happen to this Board!!!

Fish the way you want and enjoy it.

[huntindog]

i wouldn't give two sh!ts what this guy or anyone else thinks of my fishing method...i love catching steelhead on the swing..but I also just love catching steelhead so i will adjust my methods accordingly...if i have a flyrod in my hand with something fuzzy tied to the end i am fly fishing in my mind and that is all that matters. (just dont expect me to post my results :D)

[Mike R]

This isn't a reply to Ron, but rather the original author.

Who cares??!! In my experience, the only people who really care how they are fishing are the ones who like to tell everybody about it. But, if you were to follow the authors logic, if you aren't fishing a dry fly, you're not flyfishing (Wait. There's a faction of our sport that believe this. Doh!). But, if I fish a dry fly on a spinning rod, am I fly fishing?

Personally, I just fish. A lot of times, I do better flyfishing and enjoy it more. But, since we're on the subject of steelhead, I have no boundaries. Sure, I prefer to flyfish, but I like to catch fish too. I have fished flys under a float on a casting rod, pulled plugs with a spey rod, and drowned eggs everywhere in between. If you have time or energy to worry about how you're fishing or, even worse, what others may think about how you're fishing, you're not doing it right. The last thing on my mind as I'm standing in a freezing river praying for a grab is wondering if I am flyfishing or not.

Mike

[David Lee]

Unless you're fishing beads/gummy-minnows - that is not flyfishing !!!

Bwwwwaaahahahahahahaboogityboogityboogityboogity ....

D.~

[Mr T]

Good points on both sides here.

Agreed the indicator does become the tool that is being fished, as it is in many ways the "anchor point" for the rig below. So yeah that is IMO a valid statement.

But then, would you call it indicator fishing? Do we need to be that specific? Plugging vs. hotshotting, vs spooning vs topwater, I guess we coud use that level of detail such as the conventional fishing advocates do. But to what end?

Agreed, that fly fishing for steelhead is in many ways not the most productive method of catching fish, but it appeals to many, including me. Again IMO a valid statement.


The author makes a point to single out the indicator as offensive to his sense of propriety; he does not not cover shooting heads, sinking lines, sink tips or floating lines. I think this is more of a shot at indicators than a general statement. Atlantic salmon fishers for years have used brass tubes to allow them to get a fly deeper when swinging a fly. He does not indicate that as offensive. The subtext, IMO, is that he finds indicators offensive. OK, fine.

My personal position is that if you are using a fly rod, (one listed with a line weight rating vs lb. rating), and you are spooled up with a fly line, be it a floater, sinktip, sinking, or shooting head setup, with a fly, then yep you are fly fishing. Lob casting with flat mono in a stripping on the same rig, eh not so much.

But then again, who cares? I fish for fun, and not to please someone else.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I think fishing is all good as long as you go by the laws.

About 10 -20 years ago indicator fishing for Steelhead was the big deal.

More than about 20 years ago indicators did not exist.

I think indo/nymphing has become so popular because fishing for Steelhead got so bad with very low runs in the 1980s and 90s.

I think that the Spey fishing has brought back the popularity of swinging flies for Steelhead now.

Many fly fishers who use to indo fish are now swinging flies, and yes maybe catching less fish too.

But they are enjoying fly casting more and the grab, on occasion.

__________________________________________________ ________________________

Because I spent years in the sporting goods business and some in a bait-n-tackle shop so I feel that all fishers are brothers. When I go to the river and run into someone fishing other than fly fishing I still talk with them and ask them how it is going.

I use to fish night crawlers and spinners for Steelhead but now enjoy fly fishing for them.

[WinterrunRon]

Fellas, fellas, fellas, I didn't mean to elicit the "I don't give a s&*t attitude what other people think" responses. Guess I should have known better. :rolleyes: I know most of us who visit this forum don't really give a s*&t about what other people think when it comes to steelheading.

It was simply meant more as a brain teaser because I find that the argument for and against what is fly fishing petty, silly, however, some are willing to define it to a passionate level. I found this guy interesting since he cared so much about it. As I mentioned, I personally don't care either way and I'm not interested or concerned that what I do and how I do it is defined. But again, it was simply meant as a brain teaser and I thought if might be fun to hear arguments for and against this guys definition. Obviously, I'm a little bored.

Mr. Moderator, if this thread goes south and doesn't get a bit more civil quickly in the spirit I had intended, please feel free to delete it in it's entirety, no offense taken. We don't need another "I don't give a s&*t what anyone else thinks, I just fish" reply. We already KNOW everyone feels this way!

I like Rick's response because he posed another brain teaser with respect to what if the fly IS the indicator.. hmmmmmmm?

[Hairstacker]

Interesting, perhaps novel, but flawed when he argues you are "fishing the bobber." First of all, the bobber doesn't have hooks. Secondly, the bobber merely provides a window into the behavor of the fly below which is being fished. Yes, we pay attention to the "bobber," but we also pay attention to our leader, fly line, fishing partner, how much is left in the flask, etc.

Of course, none of this ultimately matters. The only real distinction of any importance is fishing topwater deer hair bugs for bass . . . and everything else. :D

[aaron]

You're a hell of a troller, thats for certain :D
Couldn't help myself, sorry. If there's one thing I've learned over the years it's that we're all fisherman, plain and simple.

[David Lee]

Mr. Moderator, if this thread doesn't get civil quickly in the spirit I had intended, please delete it in it's entirety, no offense taken. We really don't need another "I don't give a s&*t what anyone else thinks, I just fish" reply. We already KNOW everyone feels this way!


Wow . Where did it get NOT civil ???

You can count me out of any further discussion -

D.~

[Mike R]

Couple more...can't help it.

What if I am using an indicator but only using it to suspend a fly, and watching for the take subsurface????

If I am fishing a nymph sans bobber and am watching the end of the flyline, am I fishing the flyline?????

What if I am fishing two bobbers and only watching one, can I be flyfishing with the other one???

Whew, getting a little existential here. I'm out.

Mike

[Scott V]

None of you are real fly fisherman, I have yet to see someone catch a fly and tie it to the end of their line. :lol:

[WinterrunRon]

Couple more...can't help it.

What if I am using an indicator but only using it to suspend a fly, and watching for the take subsurface????

If I am fishing a nymph sans bobber and am watching the end of the flyline, am I fishing the flyline?????

What if I am fishing two bobbers and only watching one, can I be flyfishing with the other one???

Whew, getting a little existential here. I'm out.

Mike

And I thought I was bored!

[Mike R]

And I thought I was bored!

Hey, somebody has to think about the important stuff...

If I can ever escape, we'll have to meet up on the A one morning.

Mike

[PMD]

What about swingin a nightcrawler on a 14' spey rod?

[Jeff Fisher]

What about spraying on some of that Nightcrawler scent on my San Juan worms? Or what about smearing some roe-scented Smelly Jelly on my Glo-bugs?

Or........oh wait......nevermind. I already tried that. I guess I wasn't flyfishing..........

[lee s.]

"More than about 20 years ago indicators did not exist."

Gosh Bill,
It was waaaaaay more than twenty years ago when some of us started out with an "indie" with worms hung under it for bluegills. Funny how the pleasure some ancient aspects of yore lore are just as pleasureable today. ;-)
.....lee s.

[OceanSunfish]

Rio markets an Indicator Fly Line and states the following:

"The highly visible tip can be used as an indicator - especially when Czech nymphing."

There you go.... Rio is not just a fly fishing company.... they market to the gear fisherman too! ;)

Like I always say, Fishing is fishing.... As long as fisherman are fishing within the law created to protect the fishery, it's all good.

As as aside, usually when I read articles like these I sense a bit of ego...... I wouldn't imagine he's literally on the bank of a river lecturing anyone using a float... if he is.... well, 'someone' is really really bored and needs to find a better cause to champion.

[WinterrunRon]

Hey, somebody has to think about the important stuff...

If I can ever escape, we'll have to meet up on the A one morning.

Mike

I'm there a couple of days or more every week, mister. Mostly mornings, but I fished the evening the other day. Pick a day and com'on down. You know where to find me.

[jbird]

I like cheese! :-)

[WinterrunRon]

Rio markets an Indicator Fly Line and states the following:

As as aside, usually when I read articles like these I sense a bit of ego...... I wouldn't imagine he's literally on the bank of a river lecturing anyone using a float... if he is.... well, 'someone' is really really bored and needs to find a better cause to champion.

I was fishing the Bogachiel River on the Olympic Peninsula a couple of years back. Timing being what it is, Washington FF were having their annual Hoh Down and there were more fisherman than fish on the Hoh (all great guys, however, I met quite a few). Upon arriving at a spot we had planned to fish, there was a man and woman already fishing (ironically, using indicators as I recall) and a small statured man looking more like a college professor than a Northcoast Steelheader observing them a good ways from the water's edge resting on the gravel bar. Guess who? Yup, introduced himself as Doug Rose and his clients were the ones fishing. Not to judge, because I don't know the man, but I think he might now do a good portion of his steelheading from a keyboard and the tip of a pen.

[Fats]

Would I be viewed as sacraliegous if I figured out that my 12'6" Echo two handed rod actually casts an RIO 8wgt steelhead line nicely one handed and should just be the bomb for throwing a big thingamabobber with some lead and a beadhead below? The other spool is set up with a running line for skagits and scandi heads.

It's going to be a really versatile rod for fishing... I like having options! I used to fish straight mono running line with slinkies spooled on a fly reel and a fly rod bottom bouncing nymphs... Very effective!

My point... you fish your way, I'll fish mine!

[Mike R]

What about swingin a nightcrawler on a 14' spey rod?

Is that on a sink tip or floating line?

[Rick J]

swinging a night crawler is a stupid idea!! May a plastic worm though..........

[Darian]

Rick,.... Would that be a watermelon or bubble gum colored plastic worm :question: I kinda lean towards motor oil color myself.... ;-)

[BillB]

I wasn't going to join this fray, but . . . In the words of the old Billy Martin beer commercial, "I feel strongly both ways." My brother is deadly with a Green Wennie.

[shawn kempkes]

I was fishing the Bogachiel River on the Olympic Peninsula a couple of years back. Timing being what it is, Washington FF were having their annual Hoh Down and there were more fisherman than fish on the Hoh (all great guys, however, I met quite a few). Upon arriving at a spot we had planned to fish, there was a man and woman already fishing (ironically, using indicators as I recall) and a small statured man looking more like a college professor than a Northcoast Steelheader observing them a good ways from the water's edge resting on the gravel bar. Guess who? Yup, introduced himself as Doug Rose and his clients were the ones fishing. Not to judge, because I don't know the man, but I think he might now do a good portion of his steelheading from a keyboard and the tip of a pen.

Ron I was hoping you would remember that. The truth is the rivers here are being overrun by some carpetbagger guides from out of state that like to drag the bobber egg bead rig thru redds where fish are actively present and they dont care whos water they have their dudes casting into. Some of Dougs hostility might be coming from this.

[davkrat]

Fishing is fishing. As long as the fisherperson is ethically and legally fishing than so be it. Having just recovered from duck season I can say be thankful that fishing gear, fly, indibobber, bait, etc. does not necessarily impact the guy next to you who is also fishing. You each have your piece of water, respect your neighbor's spot and let them fish how they want. In duck hunting nothing is worse than some downwinding skyscraper ruining your chance to work birds, it effectively ruins your chances to hunt the way you want to. I love indicator nymphing, dries and swinging flies and when I'm doing any of those activities I could care less what the guy next to me is doing unless he's snagging or using bait in a no bait zone! As long as it's ethical and the person is enjoying themselves and respecting the fish I could careless what they're wearing, what they're using or what they want to call it.

[STEELIES/26c3]

A dedicated winter steelhead fly fisherman or woman willingly accepts that they won’t catch that many fish because they are more interested in the way they fish than whether they end up with a fish at the end of the day. In all other methods of winter steelheading that I have experienced, it’s just the opposite–catching fish is more important than the way you do it. Indeed, most expert winter steelheaders that I know who don’t fly fish experiment with a variety of techniques until they catch a fish. For them, the fish is more important than they technique."Not sure if the above statement is more idiotic or arrogant...

It's a really sweeping generalization about what constitutes a positive fishing experience for a fly fisher vs a non-fly fisher...

I would argue that we ALL want to catch fish at the end of the day... otherwise why not visit the river with hook-less lines or just leave the gear at home altogether and bring the binoculars and a Peterson's Guide... to the river...

Personally, it is for me, also about the experience and the outwitting of the fish (with method/s of choice).

Reading water, understanding fish holding, feeding patterns, stream hydrology/physics and many other biological and ecological factors... are all points of consideration whether fly or gear fishing and such considerations, for any application, can be equally academic and demanding of intellect and skill.

Also, figuring out by the aforementioned details and via process of elimination... what and how to present to a steelhead can be as easy or difficult and as successful or unsuccessful as the individual angler chooses, no matter what her/his fishing technique.

If one angler uses an egg pattern with a Copper John dropper and executes a seamless dead drift under an indicator but catches no fish and never changes flies nor technique...

and a spey guy swings a purple bunny leech for hours on end and uses the same downstream, quartering cast, and same fast-strip method but after 2 hours and zero takes... he trades purple for black and slows his retrieve and interjects a pause here and there... which elicits a grab and a bright fish landed.

and a gear guy uses roe, then spoons, and finally entices a steelhead to bite a spin n glo and then hooks another and another because the action and color or of that goofy lil plastic, winged thing just so happened to be what pissed the fish off enough to strike that day...

Is the spinning guy's three fish any less earned or deserved than the spey guy's one fish?

It would seem to me that the indicator guy was unsuccessful not because he was a fly guy but because (unlike the gear guy or the spey guy...) he failed to think outside the box.

An angler, to be routinely successful, must take an academic approach to fishing. Further, the most successful (just as Darwin's survival of the fittest principle applies to nature...) anglers are those who adapt and evolve.

It's not what's in your fly OR GEAR box... but rather what you do with it...

which determines the purity and perfection of your angling experience :fish:

http://treeofknowledge.org/markebay/madsteel129112.jpg

[flyguy1]

great reply Mark. What ever the method, its about enjoying the experience.

Scott

[Mike R]

Boy, I hope you released that chromer...right into the brine. Smoker meat!